Another Dowry Question- Please Help

[blizzard]

i see a lot of unattractive thai women who seem to be married to thai guys.

if you go by the bell curve theory there are only so many good looking girls to go around. unless by attractive you dont give a hoot about looks but mean good hearted girls.

[Cobalt60]

Ohh the penny has just dropped, I am always being described as 'Jai dee', it means I am ugly

[Phantom200]

You have not stated whether the cash will be returned nor whether all the gold is for your future wife ? Reading between the lines and from your girlfriend's "talking to a wall" stubbornance, I hazard a guess that it will not be returned as she had the opportunity to tell you there and then whether it was only for show. The gold obviously is near cash, not cash, in economic terms.

Here are a few more details:

1. I was informed that the famliy would keep the cash and we would keep the gold.
   
2. The family will pay for the wedding ceremony. (to be held in Mahasarakham)
   
3. I need to buy the bride a diamond ring. She said she would buy me a diamond ring also with her own money.
   
4. I don't know who will claim ownership of the guests' wedding presents (cash).
   
5. The family asked me for a deposit of 10,000 baht cash the day we announced our wedding to them. I didn't have that kind of money in my wallet so they said it was ok to just pay the full amount on the wedding day.
   
6. The bride has a University degree in English. She was 27 when I met her.
   

One thing I've learned so far from this forum is that I should have been prepared or informed in some way or another before talking to her parents about the 'sin sod'. A negotiator? Really? Was I supposed to have one? I have no family here and my friends are all coworkers.

Regarding the money, it's not a hardship for me. It's the principle of the matter. I just want to pay what a Thai man of my status would pay.

[Maigo6]

Regarding the money, it's not a hardship for me. It's the principle of the matter. I just want to pay what a Thai man of my status would pay.

How much do you earn a month, how much does she earn a month ?

300,000 isn't a lot of money for high earners, less than a months salary for many expats.

Also many richer Thais lay out millions to show, ask 'Heng' he can fill you in on what a Thai guy will show if he has Status.

[a2396]

I can't believe the nitwits on this forum advising you it's OK to pay up. I personally find this whole idea of sin sod very offensive. If I were to pay it, I would be losing face. AND, they have the balls to ask you for a down payment!! I would tell them you will pay for the wedding and forget about the cash hand-out. I assume you know and trust this lady very well after 3 years, so it's up to you, as they say here. If money is no object to you, proceed, but watch out for future demands of money and support from various segments of the family. Her first boyfriend and she was 27? I seriously doubt it, unless she is very ugly and/or unsexy. Good luck.

[UdonRoy]

Ok I know I am going to get some flack from this but if you want to know how much a Thai guy would pay then again it depends on family standing within the community.

I recently went to a wedding between two Thai's, both high ranking within the community and the wedding lasted two days, over 1000 people attended and he payed a great deal more in dowry than you are being asked for.

To be honest your thread is pointless, only you can make the choice if you are happy to pay or not, I did I have no regrets what so ever.

[Slotman]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader2172.htm

In my opinion, if any self respecting bloke reads this & still pays up, they've been out in the sun too long & drunk too much Thai whisky & Chang! (as well as being absolutely pussy whipped)

What a helpful chappie Mr Stickman is.

Sounds like there are a couple of old duffers on here (& all the other Thai forums) who paid over the odds. Then again if you're old, bald, fat & lonely, what the hel_l? Sad!

I personally make a good living & think 300,000 is a lot of money to be giving away!!!!!

I agree with a2396 & Awk, nice one.

Seems that Maigo6 could either be a rich, retired, lonely Farang? or maybe a Thai chick?

Good luck to Phantom200 & please use your head pal & don't get suckered!!

[jeffer]

Some of you are very jaded, aren't you?

you know, maybe you would be surprised at how many 30 year old girls there are in Thailand without a boyfriend, ever. I can assure you they are out there. I'm friends with a family who have a now 32 year old daughter, attractive enough that very few of you would say no to her if she wanted to go out with you, university educated with pretty good English. There were Thai and foreign men wanting to go out with her but she never could find the right guy until she met an English man last year who swept her off her feet. She will probably end up marrying him later this year, one very nice lady that a lot of guys missed out on.

While there might be plenty of girls who will jump in to bed with any foreigner in the hope of improving their lot, there are also many who are still brought up in the old fashioned way who don't and you shouldn't make the mistake of assuming they are all fat and ugly either 'cause they're not.

I have a SiL from Mahasarakham and on my few visits there haven't come across many westerners married to a Thai and it's not a very big province compared to others in Issan. If the OP has been with her for 3 years then it sounds like a serious relationship and he shouldn't need to be asking on an internet forum about whether or not he should be paying a dowry. Three hundred thousand baht for a girl as described doesn't sound excessive for that part of Thailand. Trying to get out of it now is only going to harm the future of the relationship and if the girl is as nice as the OP says it sounds fair enough as the cost of the reception alone in the west would be much more than that so he should just pay up and think of it as in investment in both their futures instead of standing on principle. He won't be losing face whereas she seriously will if he doesn't pay up now after already agreeing to do so. It might be one thing to object to paying a dowry for a girl you've met via the nightlife industry, maybe with a child and a rudimentary education but in this case it's not so unreasonable especially from a Thai viewpoint. Why spoil the opportunity to have a good life with someone over an amount that he has already said is not going to be a hardship for him.

[Maigo6]

Seems that Maigo6 could either be a rich, retired, lonely Farang? or maybe a Thai chick?

Hahaha..........

Only 2 choices ? You'll have to do better than that.

[Maigo6]

Some of you are very jaded, aren't you?

you know, maybe you would be surprised at how many 30 year old girls there are in Thailand without a boyfriend, ever.

My GF has a cousin who's a Nurse in Bkk, she's 27 - 28, never had a boyfriend before, and I know many women of the same ilk.

Then again, they don't work in Bars.

[Heng]

Regarding the money, it's not a hardship for me. It's the principle of the matter. I just want to pay what a Thai man of my status would pay.

How much do you earn a month, how much does she earn a month ?

300,000 isn't a lot of money for high earners, less than a months salary for many expats.

Also many richer Thais lay out millions to show, ask 'Heng' he can fill you in on what a Thai guy will show if he has Status.

There's a big difference between "show" and "pay," Maigo.

The problem is that there is a double standard for foreigners... amounts that are sometimes supposed to be "shown" are in the end "paid." I say "suppose" because as the amounts increase, it's generally accepted that it is indeed just for show. IMO it shows ill intent on the part of locals when they don't go with what's generally accepted on this issue when dealing with foreigners. Of course, it's just "generally" so one can't really call it tradition or rule, and there are certainly more than a few who are willing to be exceptions. Also, some foreigners don't help the situation by deluding themselves (and often trying to convince others) that sin sots are never returned or are often just for show.

One famous case is the 2nd wedding (which again, generally means no sin sot, whether paid OR shown... usually it's just a QUIET official registration of the marriage) to a foreigner of Pui the former Miss Universe. Relatively significant amount paid (I think a few million US$) in dowry that was kept and put to use in Pui's hometown by her family.

[qualtrough]

My story for what it is worth. 12 yrs ago I married an Ayuthaya girl who grew up just outside BKK (U. graduate). Paid a sin sod even though I wasn't too keen on that. Later received land from parents for our house worth far in excess of the sin sod, and have not been bothered for any money/gifts since--nada, zip, zilch. Mom in law bought a car for wife last year in fact. Good wife and wonderful mother to our children, great in-laws. It is their tradition not ours. If someone doesn't want to do it that's their right, but they probably would be wiser to marry someone from their own country if it really bothers them.

Having said that, there are undoubtedly families that take advantage of farang naivety to extract a sin son far in excess of what would normally be charged, or expect a sin sod when it probably isn't deserved. I am not making any judgment on the OP's case. Each individual has to do his own 'due diligence'.

P.S. Regarding virginity, I would wager that there are far more female virgins at any given age in Thailand than there are in the US/Europe. You wouldn't get that impression if you live in Pattaya, hang out at Nana, or live in a tourist area, but if you can escape those bubbles you might get a different perspective.

[dave111223]

Before I got married i thought having a problem with the Sin Sod was just a Farang thing (everyone made it seem like all Thais pay this $$ without question).

My Wifes cousin is getting married next month, and i can't recall the number of times that the wedding seemed to be under fire due to Sin Sod disagreements.

So it is not only Farang that have a problem with the Sin Son, it seems Thai people do also (if they on the wrong end of it). Don't feel bad about feeling hard done by.

I ended up paying 100,000 and made my wife put up 100,000 of her savings. We had bought a condo before getting married so we brought the deed to put into the pot too. When it came to the day my wife never took the 100,000 out of her savings because my mother in-law ended up sticking 100,000 in instead. There was a lot of gold and stuff but i didn't pay for that and i don't know where it came from (most just family stick a bunch of their own gold in and take it back after the ceremony).

Anyways total cost me 100,000. After the wedding we got back an envelope with 150,000 in it. Because at the wedding party all the guests have to give money. This money is then divided amongst the Bride/Groom and the Brides Parents.

At the end of the day everyone who had put money into the event turned a nice profit

[gzu88bv]

I do like ThaiVisa very much for its controversial discussions and again this Dowry (Sin Soht) thing has proven it.

I really enjoyed reading this thread and it leaves me with the thought that it is all about f************ money. And yes it is, otherwise how

would it be possible that old guys could show around their 20 year old teeny.

Dear Farangs, do you really believe in this tradition? Sorry I do not. I am not saying this to be an Isaan thing, but come up here and you may learn

numerous stories where such money was paid, did not get back where it belonged to and just evaporated like hot air. And it works with the so-called

rich Farang, even if that same Farang may even not be able to obtain a decent visa (no offence intended).

And when reading Phantom200's latter message I can only say: Dump her and look out for better "merchandise".

[powwow]

I am married to a Thai and so are most of my friends.

Not one of us has ever been asked or had to pay a Dowry.

If you are not comfortable with the arrangement and the girl loves you, not paying a dowry should not be a problem.

Personally I think you are being conned.

[Maigo6]

Hmmm, all the Thai guys I know who married in Isaan paid a dowry.

Maybe it's just Thai Visa members who don't pay as they marry girls from such rich Families, the parents pay them.

Whatever, it's only money, I can't see the problem with it myself, there is a 19 year old girl in the Village who has never had a boyfriend, is at technical college and her Family are not rich but try their best, even sold a couple of cows to pay her school fees. She is really lucky cos she is rooming with my GF's younger Sister and I help them both out, bigger room, computer etc.....and they know that I will always help her out.

This girl is stunning, she is smart, attractive, no drinking , no smoking, no gambling, never been kissed, and about 40Kgs dripping wet.

Would I pay 300,000 Baht for a sin sot for her and not give a toss if I got it back or not ?

In a heartbeat pal......in a heartbeat!

My GF's sister is in the same mould, you think I would let some beast get hold of her without showing he was willing to at least show some financial security, not on your life pal!

Edited September 29, 2007 by Maigo6

[rainman]

Wait ...she's 30 and you're her first boyfriend? I'm not talking about sex, but simply about her having a boyfriend.

As for me, I never paid a Baht of dowry at my wedding. Part because like you, I thought the money could be better used to build a business that provides monthly income and part because her parents didn't want to accept any money either. And it didn't cause the family to ask for monthly money after either. I'm married for almost 2 years now and have never been asked for a Baht. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Anyways, from your initial post it seems you're hesitant and think the money could be better used elsewhere. If you're not totally financially secure or can't afford to spend it right now and paying that amount of money will hurt you, don't do it - period. If they love you, they will accept. If they love the money and don't care about you, they won't. The 'loss of face' is an excuse, they can perfectly fine show the money at the wedding and give it back to you when nobody is watching after the wedding.

[Maigo6]

As for me, I never paid a Baht of dowry at my wedding. Part because like you, I thought the money could be better used to build a business that provides monthly income and part because her parents didn't want to accept any money either. And it didn't cause the family to ask for monthly money after either. I'm married for almost 2 years now and have never been asked for a Baht. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Not lucky Rainman, you will find nearly all guys here married into influential families, heck, we even used to have one poster who's GF broke off appointments with the Deputy Prime Minister of Thailand so she could have lunch with him. And his regular soirees consisted of mixing with the rich and famous, wealthy and powerful.

Funnily enough, I never quite believed him.

In reality he was an English Teacher in Bkk.........

[ajarnmark]

You have not stated whether the cash will be returned nor whether all the gold is for your future wife ? Reading between the lines and from your girlfriend's "talking to a wall" stubbornance, I hazard a guess that it will not be returned as she had the opportunity to tell you there and then whether it was only for show. The gold obviously is near cash, not cash, in economic terms.

Here are a few more details:

1. I was informed that the famliy would keep the cash and we would keep the gold.
   
2. The family will pay for the wedding ceremony. (to be held in Mahasarakham)
   
3. I need to buy the bride a diamond ring. She said she would buy me a diamond ring also with her own money.
   
4. I don't know who will claim ownership of the guests' wedding presents (cash).
   
5. The family asked me for a deposit of 10,000 baht cash the day we announced our wedding to them. I didn't have that kind of money in my wallet so they said it was ok to just pay the full amount on the wedding day.
   
6. The bride has a University degree in English. She was 27 when I met her.
   

One thing I've learned so far from this forum is that I should have been prepared or informed in some way or another before talking to her parents about the 'sin sod'. A negotiator? Really? Was I supposed to have one? I have no family here and my friends are all coworkers.

Regarding the money, it's not a hardship for me. It's the principle of the matter. I just want to pay what a Thai man of my status would pay.

Dude, if I were you, I would walk out from this and run like hel_l.

Read the article on Stickman site and see if it suits your situations.

According to some posters like maigo6, you should pay money. But did your brain says that you should pay money? If not, then why to listen to your heart? If a lady is happy just because of your money, what do you call such lady in your own country?

I have read many posts, where farangs pay sinsod (dowry) because it is Thai culture. But, actually this is not. All my friends, from different parts of the world never paid even a single baht for sinsod, however, they did contribute in their wedding party and other related expenses, but NO CASH.

A friend of mine from Bangladesh (working in BKK for long time) is going to get married to his long term GF, who is not from Isaan and has a good degree from the top university and good job. They decided and agreed not to pay even a single baht and they are happy, no problem.

I never paid and will never pay for marriage. Its not a girl is going to spend her life with me, but it is also that I am going to spend my life with her too.

According to a proverb, if you want to clap you need to hands (or alternatively one hand and one face)

[Maigo6]

Wait ...she's 30 and you're her first boyfriend? I'm not talking about sex, but simply about her having a boyfriend.

Rainman, it isn't that unusual really, I've lived in Thailand for years and I had a GF who had a sister of 30 who had never had a BF and an aunt of 36 in the same boat. All attractive.

Thai Chinese, work, work, work, work...no time.

The girl I was seeing was 28 and still a virgin and I knew her for 6 months and we never had sex in that time !

It really isn't that unusual.

[Maigo6]

If a lady is happy just because of your money, what do you call such lady in your own country?

Wife ?

[onethailand]

Regarding the money, it's not a hardship for me. It's the principle of the matter. I just want to pay what a Thai man of my status would pay.

I think this is where the misunderstanding is.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with your status, or a Thai man of your status. It has EVERYTHING to do with the perceived status of the potential wife and family.

If your wife has a university degree - in English - it's a pretty ###### good chance she is not a gold digger and neither is her family. Anyone with that kind of qualification who was going to play games would have asked for a lot more than that.

In the end, you are paying for face. The risk is relatively small and the reward, I would imagine, is worth way, way more than that to you. And you may find, as other posters have, that you end up with more than you put in at first, though this is certainly not the reason to pay the dowry.

Otherwise, send her to me, and I'll pay her more in salary the first year than the amount you're going to pay in dowry.

[Joe Walshe]

Put yourself in the Thai parents postion for a moment.

You've worked night and day to send your daughter to college. You want whats best for her. Someone you know nothing about wants to marry her. Will he drop her after a few years and maybe leave her with a kid and no career future. By asking for a dowry you will eaasily eliminate suitors who are not sincere. In view of the high divorce rate worldwide I think the dowry system has some merit.

I have two daughters (thai/Irish). I would not be overjoyed to see them marrying someone who cannot show me they have the means to take care of them

[Maigo6]

Put yourself in the Thai parents postion for a moment.

You've worked night and day to send your daughter to college. You want whats best for her. Someone you know nothing about wants to marry her. Will he drop her after a few years and maybe leave her with a kid and no career future. By asking for a dowry you will eaasily eliminate suitors who are not sincere. In view of the high divorce rate worldwide I think the dowry system has some merit.

I have two daughters (thai/Irish). I would not be overjoyed to see them marrying someone who cannot show me they have the means to take care of them

Absolutely Joe, I agree totally.

[a99az]

I was happy to pay and mum in law put on a great show by struggling away under the weight of all the cash and gold. After she gave my wife back the gold. We had a great wedding and this week after over a year together we hope to make the papers at the Amphur. (To satisfy the likes of various government body’s)

[TheWalkingMan]

Put yourself in the Thai parents postion for a moment.

You've worked night and day to send your daughter to college. You want whats best for her. Someone you know nothing about wants to marry her. Will he drop her after a few years and maybe leave her with a kid and no career future. By asking for a dowry you will eaasily eliminate suitors who are not sincere. In view of the high divorce rate worldwide I think the dowry system has some merit.

I have two daughters (thai/Irish). I would not be overjoyed to see them marrying someone who cannot show me they have the means to take care of them

Put yourself in the Westerner's parents position for a moment.

You've worked day and night to send your son to college. You want what's best from him. Someone you know nothing about wants to marry him. Will she disappear after a few years and maybe clean out the bank account or take 50% of his assets in a divorce. By their asking for a prepayment they will easily eliminate suitors who are not easily manipulated by claims of culture. In view of the high divorce rate worldwide I think that a pre-nup is best and any handing over of cash should be dismissed.

Sometimes it is just too easy.

Cheers,

TheWalkingMan

[mark henry]

200.000 Baht seems like an awful lot of money to me, i paid 32.000 and that hurt. After all it's not our culture, have they offered to cover all the costs of the wedding as is the custom for the brides family in the West?

It's up to you but the whole sin sod, gold stuff rests uncomfortabely with me.

[FarangNoi21]

for those showing millions of baht, do you actually show it or do you just print a back statement? if you are dealing in cash, is there police protection?

i cant imagine paying sin sot, but i guess i am a young guy. if my wife was half my age i guess it would make more sense.

[qualtrough]

Reading through the replies here it is easy to spot the people who have, or will have, real trouble adapting to life in Thailand.

Key clue: Those who expect Thai culture to be exactly like the one they came from.

[Maigo6]

for those showing millions of baht, do you actually show it or do you just print a back statement? if you are dealing in cash, is there police protection?

i cant imagine paying sin sot, but i guess i am a young guy. if my wife was half my age i guess it would make more sense.

Young Thais pay it too.