Having Children Is Irresponsible.

[lazeeboy]

Indeed!

And that is why gay marriage should not only be legal, but MANDATORY.

[FarangNoi21]

Just laugh off all the population predictions for the future! I remember in the 1970's the best scientists of the day were predicting that oil was running out in the next few years, they predicted a nuclear winter, etc. Apocalyptic thinking, especially as it manifests in the fundamentalist Christian environmentalist West is nothing but amusing and boringly repetitive. The best scientists today predict that we have so much oil to burn that we are in danger of a carbon summer. Just have lots of kids and hug them!

you dont believe in global warming?

[RueFang]

I used to have the same opinion about not having children due to how messed up the world is, the population, etc but the last couple of years I've changed my mind. I figure now that if you can give your kids a good education and teach them "worldly" skills, maybe one day they'll be part of the new generation that helps fix the world's many problems. We actually do have the means to feed everyone on the planet but politics (amongst other things) prevents it...

[rainman]

Your original post hinted at 13bn people. By my calculations that gives each of these 13bn people about 6760sqm of land all to themselves. Plenty of room.

I assume you included inhabitable deserts and mountain ranges in this? As well as the remaining rain forests that we can afford to lose (and therefor increase emissions) so we can build farms to feed ourselves? Great thinking! Really.

Edited October 9, 2007 by rainman

[Johpa]

I think the original poster is in error regarding having children and I would like to make a modest proposal, but drats, Swift beat me to it nearly 300 years ago.

[calibanjr.]

The best scientists today predict that we have so much oil to burn that we are in danger of a carbon summer.

Sorry. Can't let this one go by without a comment. Actually, no serious geologist believes this. Sure, a few climatologists who can operate a computer have made a funny model that suits their political and funding agendas, but even their mildest prediction is almost certainly way too severe in my opinion, and the opinion of many others.

The elephant in the room is peak oil, and it's here already. Ghwar is in decline, and nothing can stop it. Climate change is real, but it will be mitigated by substantially fewer fossil fuels. Ask Dave Rutledge at Caltech. He did a very good paper on exactly this subject.

Don't confuse political events in the '70s with geological realities today. There will be a serious shakeup in the world before this gets better. Oil production is in irreversible decline, and no technologies are available to take up the slack at the rate depletion will hit us. The only thing that will work is demand destruction, which will take the form a severe economic depression. History teaches us war will be the solution to this, and in the words of some of our most famous leaders today "all options will be on the table."

There will be population reduction. It will be due to war, starvation and disease. Has nothing to do with apocalyptic thinking. Has to do with basic science, and happens everytime an organism exceeds the carrying capacity of its environment. Fossil fuels allowed us to expand into overshoot for a brief while, but like all organisms, we will experience the collapse that results from this. Much as we like to think we are different, we just aren't that far removed from bacteria.

Believe it... or don't believe it. Up to you. It will affect you all the same. Staying in denial will just make it harder. Governments know this. They are all silently preparing. They aren't telling you though, that would just cause panic.

The sad reality is there is nothing that can be done about overpopulation at this point. It might be possible in theory to feed everyone on the planet right now absent fossil fuels if people were willing to accept a mostly 3rd world lifestyle. I believe people will not accept that outcome, and therefore crash will ensue. No religion involved here. Simple biology, math and physics coupled with an understanding of human nature.

Sorry for the morbid tone of this post. Peak oil is important though. Everyone should study it and take it seriously. Based on the crude+condensate numbers we passed the peak in 2006. Wishful thinking won't change that basic fact. And while nobody can predict the future, barring a miracle, certain things do appear inevitable.

Good post, gregb.

Just a WEE bit better than people who "rebut" the opening post with such profound statements such as:

"Rainman, you must be COMPLETELY out of your mind, to post such drivel!!! (excuse me for saying so)."

Wow, such COMPELLING rhetoric!

Anyway, Rainman, glad you got one post that showed some contemplation. I do think the using the word "irresponsible" in the title sort of front-loaded the responses to be of the defensive/reactionary type. I believe that most people don't and won't go into in-depth consideration of the ramifications of the current and progressing resource-intensive and ecologically stressful modern industrial economic system. More reactionary dismissal on the way for your opening post because people are very defensive of their "inherited" lifestyle and the "fruits of their labors" , etc. I agree that it's an impending problem and unfortunately I'm as pessimistic as gregb., but I stay out of ruining peoples fun. Not faulting you for it, though!

Edited October 9, 2007 by calibanjr.

[rainman]

I admit, using the word "irresponsible" was a bit off and I debated with myself for a few minutes if I should word it like that or not. But I enjoy a good debate so I went ahead anyways. Glad to see some people agreeing with me. Once again, I'm not at all saying don't have any children (though that would solve overpopulation in about 100 years ), I'm just saying it would be best for us all, and especially for our children if we all kept it at 1 or 2. We don't have to live with the consequences, they will...

[AlbertTatlockDeceased]

Having children Irresponsible?..LOL,

Why are you here?

What is your purpose in life?

What could that thing between your legs be for? apart from pissing and holding onto when things get tough?

The whole point of it is to reproduce.

The world as a whole (the developed world in particular - ) doesn't have enough young people entering society to "provide" for the older generation....la la la...yes I know, how they fought in 2 world wars and the "world wouldn't be the same without them, and how much thanks we should Kow Tow.

Maybe a better idea than to stop having children is to KILL old people, I for one have passed my prime, contribute nothing to society, spread disease and become a burden to the state.

I think LETHAL INJECTION the day after the 70th birthday would be appropriate.

People will starve/have been starving for thousands of years, you and me will nor change that..how do you contribute to allieviating these peoples problems? you cannot!

There needs to be a good education system, a GOOD government, some LUCK - both politically and geographically - so it is a bit pot luck!

Greed in the world is holding many of these countries back, along with corruption and incompetence...if every dollar in aid given to a charity was measured by how much the actual recipient received...I bet not 50%!

But to think more positively (said by a manic deppresive) Imagine Soundman, that just by some piece of good luck like winning the Lotto, one of your kids turned out like a JFK/Martin Luther (I presume however they are not black..but merely dark skinned if you live in Isaan) or an Albert Einstein....by not having them you have "robbed the world" Opportunity missed!

Why don't you ask you're old man and lady (apologies if they are like mine and not available for comment) why they had you?

It also seems a little strange you ponder on this aspect after havin kids! Did you not wonder about this beforehand....or were you like me? I have three and now only realise the destruction to your personal life that they cause!

Honestly though, I don't think I would change my view, yes I understand what you are saying, but in the big mix of things, I feel it is better to bring that LIFE into the world, if you can take care of it, and simply hope for the best!

If they grow up decent, honest and smart...(notice I never said hard working) and they love you...I don't for one minute think you have a thng to worry about...good luck! (everyone needs a little in life)..PS I am not depressed tonight, so I am off to the Rovers Return for a half of bitter and a rum!

[Ulysses G.]

Indeed!

And that is why gay marriage should not only be legal, but MANDATORY.

We are matching you up with Jerry Lewis!

[dsys]

I assume you included inhabitable deserts and mountain ranges in this? As well as the remaining rain forests that we can afford to lose (and therefor increase emissions) so we can build farms to feed ourselves? Great thinking! Really.

My bad!

Ok ill give you back the rainforests - revise my estimate down by 6% - 6354.3sqm

Mountains as well (24%) - 4829.344sqm

Deserts well the biggest desert will thaw with global warming giving us more land space but I wont factor that in

still leaves us with 4829sqm - still plenty

Edited October 9, 2007 by dsys

[a2396]

For sure there are to many people crawling all over each other, particularly poor people who have no hope of a decent life. I'm all for maximium education and availibility of ALL methods birth control & the empowerment of men & women to be in control of choices they wish to make. Bringing children into a life of poverty & dispair is a bigger sin to me than all the rantings of the "born agains" & the "Holy Father" against birth control. Follow the advise of these wise stewards of public and personal morality and we will populate ourselves off the face of the earth.

[MIDthemoron]

Im sure this is related in some what to the Thai junta leaders conspiracy to deprive us of our rights....

And if I could write more than one sentence at a time without including sarcasm, or sarcastic comments about the military, i just might explain it sometime....

[MrSquigle]

Should start this debate in a country that warrants it, like Philippines where family's of 10/12 are common.

I personally want 4 at least and I am working on supplying the cash they will need to survive.

[WaiWai]

Having children is a manifestation of vanity. Humans have more choice in the matter than very simple organisms, but still go ahead, despite our detrimental effects on the planet and other animal life. We are successfully killing off other species every day (not to mention our own).

Vanity also prevents people adopting unwanted children, and there are far too many of these.

[MrSquigle]

yes that is correct, I would have adopted several, but my precious good looks stopped me

[siam-i-am]

yes that is correct, I would have adopted several, but my precious good looks stopped me

Funny it was my good looks that got me three beautiful children. The population explosion will not happen here, the any number allowed on motorcycles and plastic helmets optional will see that darwinism will prevail. On a personal note I like kids, I went to school with them.

[onethailand]

I've been trying to have as many kids as possible to counter this lack of family members! I have 5 lovely kids and the missus wants another

Bloody hel_l, and I thought I had it bad... trying to put three kids through international school takes every last penny I earn...

Rainman, good post. Appreciated the insight. But I think that if you love children, and if your wife does, you should either have children - or adopt - not "forego for the sake of humanity". You can give back in many ways, and your children can do so also if they adopt your beliefs.

[bingobongo]

if you love children as you say you do, but dont want to add to the "overpopulation" as you put it, then adopt one of the numerous Thai children in orphanages destined for a miserable existence in the state run system

if that is out of the question, then i do not think your fear of "overpopulation" is your real reason, but rather a fear of the responsibility or the fear that your freewheeling lifestyle will change (as noted by your global travel list).......you can lie to us, but you can't lie to yourself

[AlexLah]

and you can predict everything that is going to happen in the future ??

As Alexlah on this forum, but for insiders known as: "The Prophet" I made some pretty acccurate predictions for this year in a thread called: "predictions 2007"

just kidding, OK?

I agree on what the OP stated, but for more reasons then overpopulation and food availability and such.

I always thought I was a bit of a weirdo when I told people that I think/feel couples that decide to have kids do this for a few reasons.

1. Religion tells humans should reproduce

2. People are a bit bored with their relation and sort of think that having children will improve the relationship

3. Women hope the partner stays with them

4. Others feel that it is a logical result of being in a relation

I know plenty of couples that knew the relation was dead and tried to make it work again by having children.

I know a lot of girls that were hoping the partner stayed with them becouse of having offspring

Look at this world and what is happening, what are you doing to stop corruption for example?

Yes one poster made the comment that they should educate the children and maybe one day one will be part of the solution, but untill then, what are you doing now to fight injustice in this world?

No, you sit down in your chair watching your favorite TV program while the wifey is cooking a meal in your designer kitchen.

Your life is good, you have a partner and a kid or kids and a good payed job that allows you to have a nice house and a garden.

You just purchased a new car and enjoy the smell of it.

O yeah, and also you have a dog or other pets that the kids and you enjoy playing with.

You watch the news on the protest in Birma and consume it.

Are you actively trying to find out the root cause of many world problems?

Or are you just thinking it is way beyond your capabilitys to change that?

Or are you just not thinking about at all?

[villagefarang]

I'm in the no kids camp.

Not too worried about the world situation, however. There have already been 5 major extinctions on the planet and there are sure to be more. War, famine, pestilence, natural disaster, man made disaster. Who knows what it will be, but it will no doubt happen. Hopefully not in my remaining years but again, who knows?

Isn't there anybody out there who isn't afraid to say they don't like kids?

[WaiWai]

I'm in the no kids camp.

Not too worried about the world situation, however. There have already been 5 major extinctions on the planet and there are sure to be more. War, famine, pestilence, natural disaster, man made disaster. Who knows what it will be, but it will no doubt happen. Hopefully not in my remaining years but again, who knows?

Isn't there anybody out there who isn't afraid to say they don't like kids?

I like them in short doses. Very short .

Animals are so much better than people.

[rainman]

I'm definitely thinking of adopting in the future. I've already discussed this with my wife as well. I'm sorry for not mentioning this in my initial post, but my statement was directed at having kids of your own. I fully encourage that.

[WaiWai]

I'm definitely thinking of adopting in the future. I've already discussed this with my wife as well. I'm sorry for not mentioning this in my initial post, but my statement was directed at having kids of your own. I fully encourage that.

Good for you, rainman .

[Taggart]

I was just talking to someone a few weeks ago regarding pollution. The fact is there's way too many people on this earth already, but trying to stem the population growth is next to impossible. The vast majority of adults seem to be genetically wired with this perception that they "must have" children, so I don't see an answer to this dilemma. Without solving the expanding world population, I don't see any solution to the pollution crisis ahead.

[greenwanderer108]

Whenever one says/claims they are not going to have children because they want to be a responsible human being, I have to be skeptical.

I once used to be in the 'overpopulation = devastation = don't continue your race n' etc.' boat...

but now having experienced the birth of my own seed and with much hindsight I have a confession. When I was in that 'save the world, we are a cancer' phase, I also thought there was a high chance I was infertile...either shooting blanks or only shooting dud ducks--one of the two--with various girlfriends over the years. As a kid, I always wanted a kid of my own, and when my sisters all had their own families, and i was only one left, I was careless mounting various horses and after enough of that to no avail, I told myself that the world had enough kids already, etc. etc.

I was convinced I was infertile and went on with my life wanting to save the earth from humans, ever so resentful of the imbalanced circle of life. And than one grateful day, I received the greatest news I've ever received, and well. It's easy to say having kids is irresponsible if you don't have or can't have kids.

While in one angle, kids are poppin out all over the place, there is the angle where certain folks would kill to have kids but simply just can't. On the kid's mom side, all her 30+ year old married cousins are jealous cause we beat them to it unintentionally as they've been trying for years, so there is a high chance that they are infertile, as seems to be the case with many folks in Asia and elsewhere--actually lots of kidnapping going on in Thailand--infants to toddlers being abducted by people who just can't have kids. If you know for sure that you can have, but you choose not to, than good for you!

Rainman, there are other extremes to save the world. You could stop using computer and electricity, stop driving (in) fossil fuel burning vehicles, live 24 hours in an AIDs hospess, etc. etc. but geese, did it ever occur to you that this earth is not the center of the universe and that there is galaxies of other planets, resources, and existences to be exploited if/when it doesn't go right here? But perhaps like the Hindus believe, your mind is the only vessel that will take you there and by freeing keeping your mine clean from the 'evil' creation of life.

Just out of curiosity, have you always felt this way about not having kids when you first started dating your wife or did this just occur after the honeymoon? I'm curious though if you're wife would really be down for adopting some other kids if she really agrees with you that she doesn't want her own. I'd be quite surprised if that were the case.

Do you know for sure 100 % that you and her have the ability to have kids? Not trying to pry into your personal life and offend you or anything, just curious if how much your motives are pure and how much are for selfish or other unknown factors (as partially mine were when I thought I felt similar)

Though overpopulation, global warming may all be real, being proactive about it so often is motivated by one's own selfishness IMO.

If it is the case that you're able to have kids, how do you know that your kid won't be the world's savior...so this world goes to shit, somebody's grand kids' grand kids' will be the inventor of the technology and star ships that will let humans manifest new frontiers and exploit new resources...yes my friends evolution goes beyond this world!

Edited October 9, 2007 by greenwanderer108

[Neeranam]

I'm definitely thinking of adopting in the future. I've already discussed this with my wife as well. I'm sorry for not mentioning this in my initial post, but my statement was directed at having kids of your own. I fully encourage that.

Come on Rainman, what's really the purpose of this thread?

Whose decision was it not to have kids?

[LinkPopularity]

well, keep thinking like that and at some point you'll start killing your neighbors etc !

[rainman]

well, keep thinking like that and at some point you'll start killing your neighbors etc !

I don't think that my way of thinking about this subject will get my neighbor killed. If anything, the contrary. As someone else pointed out, if the world's population keeps growing and food gets more and more scarce, we'll eventually start wars for food, which is what may get my neighbor killed (if he's still alive by then).

What I'm trying to say is we have to think ahead on the subject. Not as we did with global warming and ice melting, just say "we can't change anything anyways, lets leave it for future generations to worry about". We're dealing with the consequences of our ancestors not acting on serious issues. We can say we love our children and then leave them to deal with the problems in 40 years. We won't have to deal with them, they will.

[teacup]

Oii…..I’m not so worry about the world food supply, population growth, or global warming issue that much. What worried me more about having children is the cost of raising them.

According to the last US census, to raise a child up to 18 yrs old - it will cost you in the average of $250,000 – this is for having just an average child w/ average IQ.

Now if you have a smarter, overactive child – then they would want to go to a graduate school for the smart one or more extra activities for those overactive one – then it will cost you approx atleast $500,000.... ouch!

[meemiathai]

There is no limit for the no. of people on earth. They can keep multiplying!