Will Thailand Always Be A Poor Country Because

[WaiWai]

i humbly beg to differ Wai-Wai. the majority of Indians and Chinese lives in rural areas and is as dirt poor as any poor Thai.

As I said, just observations. Of course most Indians & Chinese are poor.

However, I feel that on the whole, those countries seem to be embracing the times far more than Thailand, and that individuals there, even in the poorer places, are more likely to display the intellectual curiosity and associated other qualities needed for "progress". I think this is particularly true of India.

[Travel2003]

I do not believe this is a poor country.

Well, maybe compare to The Emirates.

Not compare to Burundi.

I strongly believe that most countries in the region (Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc) will catch up with the more developed (and richer?) countries in the West.

It might take time, and they will experience set backs, but I strongly believe they will catch up.

As for many Thais being poor.

Poor compare to whom?

I bet one of you guys will educate me (which I actually like) and tell me the definition for "poor".

But I do not believe that this country has a lot of poor people.

10's of 1000's of simple farmers in isaan.

Simple yes, but not poor.

Many Western countries have the last few years started to discuss the matter of their own poor people.

Of course, being poor in North-West Europe means not being able to have at least one holiday abroad per year.

Just because you have a lot less then the rich, or the middle class, doesnt mean that you are a poor person.

rgds

Poor Sailor

[TheDon]

And not ALL western countries are rich, there are poor ones too. But that isnt the question.

Thailand will catch up eventually, probaly not in 10 years but they are going forward which is a fact and Thailand looks alot richer compared to 1980

[blizzard]

los will never be an economic power . they might have a chance when the leedrers decide corruption is not the way to go. get rid of dirty dealing and people have a chance. get edukated and take on the world.

[mellow1]

Are we discussing whether Thailand is a poor country, or its inhabitants are poor?

I have lived in Isaan for 7 years, and what I write below is based on my own observations from my village and many neighbouring villages

Thailand as a country is not poor. there are many natural resources, exports are good, but all the money earned is mismanaged either at a national level or a local level.

Sadly the majority of the people are destined to always be poor. The people of Isaan ,some 18 million strong, are nearly all poor, often of their own making. Most have little education, and what education they are given is not the best since teachers in the main realise the kids will either end up in farming or the sex industry, with just a few able to get work in Bangkok, shortly thereafter moving themselves to the more lucrative sex industry. Basic wages are low, those in the "entertainment" industry generally fritter away their large earnings, leaving their families back home just as poor as ever.

Those that do work in labouring jobs, whether near home or in the bigger cities, and they number many millions, not only earn around 200bt a day, but travel back to their homes regularly for every village wedding, death, lucky home party or similar, most of which last 3/4 days. Once home they are reluctant to return to work, so it is no surprise they rarely have any money. They often ask me why farangs have more money, but won't give up their work ethic and culture and work continuously 5/6 days a week as we have all done, foregoing all the parties during working hours. Western funerals last an hour or 2, whilst Thai ones require everyone to attend for 4/5 days. Most western weddings are on Saturdays and are just 1 day events compared to 2/3 days in Thailand. There is money there for making, but they need to change their thinking and move into the 21st century.

Debt is rampant out here in the Isaan villages. Many work just to pay off the interest on their loans which can run at 10% a month or more. Even the rice farmers borrow to buy fertiliser, and pay the workers to harvest the rice. They pay their interest in bags of rice, and frequently have only a couple of bags left for their own use.

Compared to workers in the west, the majority are lazy - work for a few days - drink for a further few days - borrow money to return to their work, and commence the cycle again.

So yes I believe they are destined to always be poor, and their children's outlook is no brighter, since they are not encouraged by their parents to better themselves.

Despite all the obvious poverty, they seem a happy and contented lot, which is more than can be said of most people on good salaries back in the west.

This is exactly what I see. I must say though, that you have a very eloquent and nice way to describe this. Something I need to work on. Very nicely written.

[Ulysses G.]

The majority of Thai people will always be poor because they have never had the inclination or been so poor; hungry; or downtrodden that they threw down their yokes and stopped licking the boot thats kicking them.

The freedoms gained by Europeans (and no masses of people has ever gained freedoms lightly) were based on a history of survival; war; famine; pestilence; disease; extremely cold Winters; crop rotation; etc. People have to endure incredible hardship to rise up and overcome.

I don't think anyone has ever starved in Thailand?

The US became a superpower directly after WW2, when its geographic and cultural isolation from a damaged Europe and huge resources led a massive surge of productivity and standard of living. By and large it earned it, too. The US became mega-rich for leaving behind the dysfunctional cultural deficiencies of old Europe and its ridiculous class and ethnic structures. - And getting along and working hard together.

By and large the problems of the rest of the world are all self-made. - Look at Africa and the ethnic hatred, social strife, blatant greed, corruption, etc?

Btw; any slaves sold aboard Western ships were done so by African slave traders. Slavery is still rife in Africa even now.

One man's "culture" is another man's slavery.

Kmart, you wouldn't happen to work for fox news by any chance?

He is suspicious because you are right.

[PadThaiGuy]

I was told many years ago by a Thai gentelman:

"Thai people just want to have fun "

[Edonista]

Here's what I don't get. Why has Thailand boomed so much in the last 20 years while the Philippines has not?

Thailand got a lot of farang money. Philippines did not.

[OlRedEyes]

Correct that the culture is the underlying reason for lack of real, as opposed to cosmetic, progress.

You can argue a million micro points, but most are a product of an antiquated culture in a modern world.

Edited October 31, 2007 by OlRedEyes

[Jingthing]

Someone asked is Thailand poor. Even the poorest countries have an elite class and look at Burma, rich in natural resources but with a horribly poor populace. The real question is do a majority of its people live in poverty according the world standards for poverty, which I suppose would cover people earning/living on less than 2 dollars a day. Are there decent statistics on what percentage of Thais earn this little? I doubt there are great statistics but I am sure it is a very large number of people.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Jingthing

[JimmyCA]

It's a matter of debt.

Most Americans/Westerners are under so much debt that they cannot afford to have the Mai Pen Rai mentality or else they will be sleeping on the streets.

True true ... and amazingly so little is done to educate the average American about long term personal finance, a subject the rich know very well

[JimmyCA]

some countries are fated to never be wealthy countries not because of economic policies but because their cultures are not conducive to wealth creation.

Am I really the first to just call this 'Racist claptrap!' ?

Guess I am.

Maybe you can explain what is racist here other that you want to sound like you have something to offer.

[Heng]

Thailand will always seem poor to folks who surround themselves with poor people. The opposite is also true.

[Jingthing]

Maybe you can explain what is racist here other that you want to sound like you have something to offer.

Indeed. I didn't even think that flame was worth any reply at all, but thank you.

[blizzard]

pi is booming economically? huh? pi is less known to the world than los.

[Jingthing]

pi is booming economically? huh? pi is less known to the world than los.

They are doing well with call centers and exporting nurses and doctors.

[canadiangirl]

a rising sea floats all boats -- it's not impossible that the next economic power of the world is somewhere in asia (china or india?), which would bring wealth into the region, no doubt boosting Thailand and other neighboring countries up in the process.

[Jingthing]

a rising sea floats all boats -- it's not impossible that the next economic power of the world is somewhere in asia (china or india?), which would bring wealth into the region, no doubt boosting Thailand and other neighboring countries up in the process.

China has done wonders for Burma. You a Reagan fan or something like that?

Rude question: do the Thai elite really want the majority lower class to get wealthy and educated?

Edited October 31, 2007 by Jingthing

[bowthai]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

Country IQ estimate

Thailand 91

Philippines 86

China (PRC) 100

India 81

[garro]

I often wonder if those who are so critical of Thailand, and how they choose to do things, share their obsrervations with Thai neighbours - I suspect that most don't. It seems to me a bit appaling that people can be so ungrateful to a host country. It is probably all smiles and friendly chat in front of a Thai's face but once safely hid behind a computer screen, the disgruntled farang, can tell the world how the Thais are doing it wrong.

These people are quick to point out how the the west does things the proper way in regards to; education, work ethic,health, police ad nauseum, but isn't it strange how these same people continue to live in Thailand. I suppose some people get some type of satisfaction from looking down on their Thai neighbour and being critical.

[xyborg]

<br />

It's a matter of debt.<br />Most Americans/Westerners are under so much debt that they cannot afford to have the Mai Pen Rai mentality or else they will be sleeping on the streets.

<br />And you think most Thais don't have debts?<br />

<br /><br /><br />I am sure many Thais have debts, but nothing near the debt level of westerners.<br />

<br /><br />I think you might find that repayments, as a percentage of total income, many Thai's debts are greater than than Western averages.<br /><br />Personally I know four or five Thai's whose monthly repayments are considerably higher than their current income. <img src="style_emoticons/default/blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="blink.gif" /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

That's an interesting prospect!!!!!!!

[cm-happy]

Countries like America have become so rich, not due to any superior culture, but through their willingness to exploit and steal from other cultures. Whether this be native Americans, African slaves or other group unlucky enough to have something they want. They have also benefited from having a very liquid sense of morality which can be moulded to suit whatever crusade they happen to be on. When people talk about the puritan work ethic they forget that it was often slaves doing the actual labor.

Sounds like how the British Empire was built, excluding, of course, the Brit exploitation of the opium trade in Hong Kong.

[dog412]

I often wonder if those who are so critical of Thailand, and how they choose to do things, share their obsrervations with Thai neighbours - I suspect that most don't. It seems to me a bit appaling that people can be so ungrateful to a host country. It is probably all smiles and friendly chat in front of a Thai's face but once safely hid behind a computer screen, the disgruntled farang, can tell the world how the Thais are doing it wrong.

These people are quick to point out how the the west does things the proper way in regards to; education, work ethic,health, police ad nauseum, but isn't it strange how these same people continue to live in Thailand. I suppose some people get some type of satisfaction from looking down on their Thai neighbour and being critical.

this post reminded me of a newspaper editor long ago who criticised a general, and awoke the next morning to find his house surrounded by tanks. while i get where you are coming from, we need to face the fact that it is very difficult to state one's unbridled opinion without adding much editing.

[jumnien]

The middle path is not difficult for he who holds no opinions.

[dog412]

The middle path is not difficult for he who holds no opinions.

not sure what you are meaning here, but holding no opinions is a opinion.

[Heng]

I often wonder if those who are so critical of Thailand, and how they choose to do things, share their obsrervations with Thai neighbours - I suspect that most don't. It seems to me a bit appaling that people can be so ungrateful to a host country. It is probably all smiles and friendly chat in front of a Thai's face but once safely hid behind a computer screen, the disgruntled farang, can tell the world how the Thais are doing it wrong.

These people are quick to point out how the the west does things the proper way in regards to; education, work ethic,health, police ad nauseum, but isn't it strange how these same people continue to live in Thailand. I suppose some people get some type of satisfaction from looking down on their Thai neighbour and being critical.

IMO it's mostly therapeutic. The most common 'tell' is combining all western achievements from the Greeks to Motorola and saying 'where would you be without "us" ?' (somehow implying that he/she is related to Socrates or is a telecoms expat, apparently feeling unwanted or unappreciated), the same way some blacks like to try to take credit for their cultural contribution to music, or as silly as Arabs saying that they should be accepted in whatever society because 'you use Arabic numerals in everyday life,' or the Chinese saying 'where would you be without the magnetic compass or gun powder?,' etc. etc. In other words it's therapy for someone who apparently is questioning his/her own self worth but cannot bear to do so on an individual level, and thus tries to do so on a broader 'team' level.

...'see? that's why I shouldn't have to leave every 90 days, should be able to own land, and why I don't think you should have your 'brother' sleeping over all the time.'

[dog412]

I often wonder if those who are so critical of Thailand, and how they choose to do things, share their obsrervations with Thai neighbours - I suspect that most don't. It seems to me a bit appaling that people can be so ungrateful to a host country. It is probably all smiles and friendly chat in front of a Thai's face but once safely hid behind a computer screen, the disgruntled farang, can tell the world how the Thais are doing it wrong.

These people are quick to point out how the the west does things the proper way in regards to; education, work ethic,health, police ad nauseum, but isn't it strange how these same people continue to live in Thailand. I suppose some people get some type of satisfaction from looking down on their Thai neighbour and being critical.

IMO it's mostly therapeutic. The most common 'tell' is combining all western achievements from the Greeks to Motorola and saying 'where would you be without "us" ?' (somehow implying that he/she is related to Socrates or is a telecoms expat, apparently feeling unwanted or unappreciated), the same way some blacks like to try to take credit for their cultural contribution to music, or as silly as Arabs saying that they should be accepted in whatever society because 'you use Arabic numerals in everyday life,' or the Chinese saying 'where would you be without the magnetic compass or gun powder?,' etc. etc. In other words it's therapy for someone who apparently is questioning his/her own self worth but cannot bear to do so on an individual level, and thus tries to do so on a broader 'team' level.

...'see? that's why I shouldn't have to leave every 90 days, should be able to own land, and why I don't think you should have your 'brother' sleeping over all the time.'

had you really believed in , what i considered a great paragraph, you would not have felt the need to add the final sentence. individualism is a tough road.

[j_cheung]

It's just that the vast majority of Thais aren't sharing in it and therefore aren't wealthy.

Mustn't this derive from culture ?

India, a close relative culturally speaking, seems to be doing well on the whole, though clearly there's still much poverty and inequity. China took a different path entirely and is also now doing well on the whole.

i humbly beg to differ Wai-Wai. the majority of Indians and Chinese lives in rural areas and is as dirt poor as any poor Thai.

Yes, but I believe that the former are more likely to be ambitious, hard-working & more "opportunitistic" or entreprising (well, at least the Chinese peasants I know are).

[qualtrough]

The entire premise of the OP's post is faulty. Instead of looking at Thailand statically it should be viewed dynamically. If you do that you will see that, say, since 1960 the country has undergone tremendous economic growth and this trend shows little sign of changing drastically. The real question should be, "It is amazing how much Thailand has progressed economically in the last 40, 20... years, when will it catch up with developed countries?" Given the self-inflicted wounds my own country (USA) is inflicting on itself I suspect that day may be sooner than some of us think.

Someone asked why the difference with the Philippines. I think a major factor has been uncontrolled population growth that never allows them to get ahead of their problems. Another is the fact that it is an island nation, with all the infrastructure problems that creates. Think of the added expense of bringing goods to market from outlying islands. I also think that corruption is worse there, based on what I have read and having lived there for two years.

[jumnien]

The middle path is not difficult for he who holds no opinions.

not sure what you are meaning here, but holding no opinions is a opinion.

That's an interesting opinion to contemplate without clinging.