Iphone Unlocking Illegal?

[nikster]

Hi,

There was a very nice post about getting a 1.0.2 iPhone unlocked on 1.1.1 without bricking the phone. This post was removed by the mods.

Now I really don't understand why? Unlocking an iPhone is certainly some hackery, but it is by no means illegal. There is no law against unlocking a phone. I am pretty sure no such law exists in Thailand, and in the U.S. and other countries it's expressedly legal to unlock phones.

The post I was referring to was about unlocking a phone for personal use - and this exact case was the subject of a U.S. supreme court ruling which ruled it legal. Several European countries have laws against locking.

As much as certain companies don't want people to tinker with their hardware, it is still legal, and with very good reason.

Or is the iPhone illegal in Thailand for some other reason?

Thanks for any clarification.

[Tywais]

The iPhone is actually illegal at the moment to sell in Thailand and what you are getting are grey market products. As for the unlocking issue, this is also a grey area due to the DMCA law which gives a 3 year allowance for this. However, and this is why it was removed is the below statement.

"Hackers who unlock Apple Inc.'s iPhone from the AT&T Inc. network and share the method with 10 million of their closest Internet friends are inviting a lawsuit from the two companies, several intellectual property (IP) lawyers said Monday.

Apple and AT&T may have a legal case against unlockers under the U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), especially if they try to sell software code or devices that unlock the iPhone, the lawyers said. But the legal landscape gets a bit complicated -- there's a legal exception to the DMCA's anticircumvention provisions that allows individual mobile phone users to unlock their devices for use on other networks.

So figuring out how to unlock the iPhone yourself is not likely to be a DMCA violation, most of the IP lawyers said. But posting instructions or code online, even for free, may earn you a cease-and-desist letter from an unfriendly lawyer, and selling software or a device that unlocks the phone is inviting trouble, most of the lawyers said"

Source, one of many > Computer World

As such it puts Thaivisa in a potentially liable situation and is covered under forum rules of discussing illegal activities.

My apologies for not being to explain the removal earlier, my network connection is poor at the moment.

[Guest Reimar]

The "unlocking" of an mobile phone is may in the "grey" zone and as long as you unlock the phone to use it on a different Network while the origin Network isn't available may would be not allowed but kind accepted!

Different is the "hacking" of the software. The software is property of (here) Apple Inc. USA and the owner of the iPhone is "just" a licensee! That says all!

You can "unlocking" the iPhone but to use it on different Networks than the permitted Networks, you need to change some Main Parts in the code of the software. And the "hack's" going further: they although "hacking" the software for iTunes and the other "locked" features!

THAT ISN'T ALLOWED AND AGAINST THE INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT LAW! It is classified as Crime!

[dekka007]

THAT ISN'T ALLOWED AND AGAINST THE INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT LAW! It is classified as Crime!

Drama Queen

Edited November 5, 2007 by dekka007

[cdnvic]

The unlocking of a mobile phone is legal in the US according to supreme court decisions in that jurisdiction. It's also legal in Canada, and in Europe unlocked phones are the norm. Apple has no legal obligation to support unlocked phones, but there is nothing illegal about unlocking them.

Please show me where modifying software code for your own use is a crime. Anyone who uses game cheats is looking at hard time.

[cdnvic]

It's worth noting that Apple, a very litigious company, has yet to sue a single person over unlocking, or producing unlocking software or tools. In fact, Apple is the target of anti-trust and other class-action suits over it's locking down of the phone, and bricking modified iPhones.

[Tywais]

there's a legal exception to the DMCA's anti-circumvention provisions that allows individual mobile phone users to unlock their devices for use on other networks.

The unlocking of a mobile phone is legal in the US according to supreme court decisions in that jurisdiction. It's also legal in Canada, and in Europe unlocked phones are the norm. Apple has no legal obligation to support unlocked phones, but there is nothing illegal about unlocking them.

That is true and why I mentioned it above, it is a 3 year exemption from the DMCA ruling to allow unlocking for personal use only. The issue is publishing the information at which point it is no longer for personal use and is where the two giants are headed in their potential law suits.

From researching, this is obviously a very big issue at the moment among users and the companies, lot's of battles being fought and will be fought over this. There is currently 2 major individual law suits happening amounting to 2.6 Billion dollars in damages against Apple and AT&T. This is going to be interesting for some time to come.

There was an analogy on one site regarding Apple's 1.1.1 update bricking unlocked phones and phones with 3rd party applications or wiping the slate clean. That is if Microsoft where to wipe the OS clean and back to it's default state if it detected software it didn't like, the uproar would be, well you can guess.

[Guest Reimar]

The unlocking of a mobile phone is legal in the US according to supreme court decisions in that jurisdiction. It's also legal in Canada, and in Europe unlocked phones are the norm. Apple has no legal obligation to support unlocked phones, but there is nothing illegal about unlocking them.

Please show me where modifying software code for your own use is a crime. Anyone who uses game cheats is looking at hard time.

May you take a close look at the Software License from Apple Inc. and would really wonder if there isn't in black and white written that the altering (editing, change and other actions) of the software isn't prohibit in total! Even for the most of the Freeware, not the open source, the altering isn't allowed!

Come on cndvic you know that very well. Ok the dayli praxis may differs from the existing law but that don't means that the owner of the copyright couldn't do something (if he want)!

But if someone really want to know the written rules and law, may I'll take the time and copy the different paragraphs from the different Copyright/License documents! And I do believe that most of you have those documents as well because they came with all (original) Software!

[A_Traveller]

Point 1: In the US the Supreme Court out ranks everyone, so irrespective of Apple's winging, an individual is legally entitled to amend their own phone to allow access by other providers.

Point 2: Grey imports are not illegal. They may be discouraged, but unless the local authorities take the view that the import is a concern, there is no legal recourse. On this point, since phones have to be certified, it might be possible for an action on the basis that the iPhone is not so certified for the Thai market, but that would be stretching a point, and would require official action, which would be unlikley

Point 3: There probably would be a legal case against an individual or a company which sold the unlocking software and or service, but provision of such information for free, whether to 1 or 5 million would not be an offence under US law. Further, such an action would be problematic at best, and the 'white room' defence has been proven effective over time. e.g Phoenix Bios.

Point 4: Applications placed onto an iPhone within the OS environment are also not illegal, though again they may be discouraged. There is an irony here, in that Apple made a focus of the OS compliance, so why should they be surprised about program development.

Point 5: Apple themselves have acknowedged that there is a need {market sphere} for a SDK and one is to be shipped early in 2008.

Point 6: Reimar as a matter of interest, the exclamation point {!} is just that, not a prerequisite for ending a sentence

Regards

[cdnvic]

Just because something is written in a EULA, doesn't mean it has any force in law.

[onethailand]

A_Traveller is right - but there is one more issue:

Telecommunication devices in Thailand *must* be approved for use. The iPhone surely has not met this approval.

Of course, there are plenty others that don't have this approval either... but that's beside the point. Technically, the use of an iPhone in Thailand would be illegal. Modification of an iPhone might not be illegal, though.

--> edit - oops. I read too quickly. A_Traveller covered that too... kudos

Edited November 5, 2007 by onethailand

[Guest Reimar]

In an Country where an driver of an Van with builtin kitchen can make an hot coffe within driving, as explained in the Drivers Manual of that Van, can sue the Car company in case of accident because the driver was boiling coffee while the van was driving (without the driver on the steering wheel!) and in the same Country the same Supreme Court would allow the breach of an contract (The EULA is an contract)?!

I don't believe that!

Question: If you're an Programmer/Software Developer and you wrote a program and was protecting the Program by registering under the international Copyright Rule and Law, would you allow everyone who just like to do so to change your program for the own use? And not that only but spread your modified program around! As well as let other "sell" your modified program and let them charge for service! Do you really like that?

Or may you ask yourself the question: Why I'm registering for copyright while other can anyway do with my program as they would?!

May you have some more questions like that?

Be honest, I woudln't like that others can do with my work what they want special if I had protected the work with registering under existing law!

[cdnvic]

You can write anything you want in a EULA but that doesn't mean it overrules the courts! If you can convince people to voluntarily comply then it's one thing but just because a EULA is a contract doesn't mean you can make up your own rules! It's like signing a contract with an employee that they will work for $2 an hour! Because it is not legal to pay someone only $2 an hour, that part of the contract cannot be upheld!

All copyrighted material is subject to fair use guidelines that govern what you can do with the material! The US courts have ruled that unlocking your phone constitutes fair use, so it's legal regardless of whether the software authors like it or not!

[bkk_mike]

The iPhone is actually illegal at the moment to sell in Thailand and what you are getting are grey market products. As for the unlocking issue, this is also a grey area due to the DMCA law which gives a 3 year allowance for this. However, and this is why it was removed is the below statement.

"Hackers who unlock Apple Inc.'s iPhone from the AT&T Inc. network and share the method with 10 million of their closest Internet friends are inviting a lawsuit from the two companies, several intellectual property (IP) lawyers said Monday.

Apple and AT&T may have a legal case against unlockers under the U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), especially if they try to sell software code or devices that unlock the iPhone, the lawyers said. But the legal landscape gets a bit complicated -- there's a legal exception to the DMCA's anticircumvention provisions that allows individual mobile phone users to unlock their devices for use on other networks.

So figuring out how to unlock the iPhone yourself is not likely to be a DMCA violation, most of the IP lawyers said. But posting instructions or code online, even for free, may earn you a cease-and-desist letter from an unfriendly lawyer, and selling software or a device that unlocks the phone is inviting trouble, most of the lawyers said"

Source, one of many > Computer World

As such it puts Thaivisa in a potentially liable situation and is covered under forum rules of discussing illegal activities.

My apologies for not being to explain the removal earlier, my network connection is poor at the moment.

Sorry - but unless Thaivisa's servers are in the US (I thought they were in Singapore), what has the DMCA got to do with unlocking a phone in Thailand.

(The DMCA doesn't reach Canada, let alone to the other side of the planet. This is a Thai forum, and the OP wanted to unlock the phone in Thailand - the DMCA is therefore irrelevant).

[Kunchai]

Hi,

There was a very nice post about getting a 1.0.2 iPhone unlocked on 1.1.1 without bricking the phone. This post was removed by the mods.

Now I really don't understand why? Unlocking an iPhone is certainly some hackery, but it is by no means illegal. There is no law against unlocking a phone. I am pretty sure no such law exists in Thailand, and in the U.S. and other countries it's expressedly legal to unlock phones.

The post I was referring to was about unlocking a phone for personal use - and this exact case was the subject of a U.S. supreme court ruling which ruled it legal. Several European countries have laws against locking.

As much as certain companies don't want people to tinker with their hardware, it is still legal, and with very good reason.

Or is the iPhone illegal in Thailand for some other reason?

Thanks for any clarification.

I am not sure about the Thailand law but mobile phone unlocking is illegal in many countries of the world because this process involves altering the phone's firmware which may be copyrighted. It means that if you are using an unlocked phone in those countries it may be against the law.

I suggest that before you decide to use an unlocked phone in Thailand you should consult a good lawyer just to be on the safe side.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Kunchai

[Guest Reimar]

Sorry - but unless Thaivisa's servers are in the US (I thought they were in Singapore), what has the DMCA got to do with unlocking a phone in Thailand.

(The DMCA doesn't reach Canada, let alone to the other side of the planet. This is a Thai forum, and the OP wanted to unlock the phone in Thailand - the DMCA is therefore irrelevant).

You're right, the DMCA has nothing to do with Thailand as well as US Supreme Court Decissions hasn't anything to do with Thai Law! And US Supreme Court decissions didn't applying to Royal Thai Law!

onethailand even pointed an other fact out: The aproval of the iPhone in Thailand which isn't done until right now! As onethailand wrote, technical the use of the "cracked/hacked" iPhone is illegal in Thailand! And if Apple will sell the iPhone in Thailand with an service provoided let say from Dtac only, than the use of the iPhone with AIS for example would be against the Thai Law!

Anyway, I asked a question in an post before and it would be fine to get an answer for exactly that question: ""If you're an Programmer/Software Developer and you wrote a program and was protecting the Program by registering under the international Copyright Rule and Law, would you allow everyone who just like to do so to change your program for the own use? And not that only but spread your modified program around! As well as let other "sell" your modified program and let them charge for service! Do you really like that?

Or may you ask yourself the question: Why I'm registering for copyright while other can anyway do with my program as they would?!""

As everybody know very well, most of the computer user using some pirated software! I don't mind about that but it would but fine if that users sometimes think about the effort, time and investment which was needed to develop that software. Special the programmers should think about their own work and how much they like their work spread around without to get paid for it!

Cheers!

[cdnvic]

I am not sure about the Thailand law but mobile phone unlocking is illegal in many countries of the world

Can you give specific examples?

I suggest that before you decide to use an unlocked phone in Thailand you should consult a good lawyer just to be on the safe side.

That's really going overboard.

[onethailand]

onethailand even pointed an other fact out: The aproval of the iPhone in Thailand which isn't done until right now! As onethailand wrote, technical the use of the "cracked/hacked" iPhone is illegal in Thailand! And if Apple will sell the iPhone in Thailand with an service provoided let say from Dtac only, than the use of the iPhone with AIS for example would be against the Thai Law!

Actually, that wouldn't. Thai law only covers the suitability of the device for use in Thailand. In fact even Bluetooth was technically illegal, not even sure if this status has officially changed yet. They are only concerned that a product will interfere with police and military networks, not with which network provides service. Even a 2.4 ghz cordless phone was considered illegal because it shares a reserved frequency (though of course Bluetooth, WiFi and other technologies also use this frequency) - this is why you don't see 2.4Ghz cordless phones sold in many places.

Once the phone is approved for use, any supplier can sell it, whether it be AIS or DTAC or True or any of the thousands of shops who have brought the product into Thailand legally. And if someone hacked it for use on AIS when Apple had an exclusive agreement with DTAC, tough luck UNLESS the product comes with a written contract explicitly forbidding its use on other networks for whatever period of time, and the buyer were stupid enough to sign it.

Unlocking it would not be an issue in any case because, many years ago, mobile phones were locked in Thailand - until the mobile networks discovered no one would buy their products, instead preferring to go to MBK.

Neither Apple nor any major supplier, I guarantee you, will sell the phone in Thailand until it has been approved. If you see it in an Apple shop, you can be reasonably certain it has gotten approval. And I highly doubt they would be stupid enough to repeat the debacle they already encountered in the US with AT&T, though really it's AT&T who are the losers here.

[tjo o tjim]

Apple has not made any takedown threats for ISP's in the US posting information, so it is quite odd for a blog about Thailand to be concerned by the idea of a DMCA takedown notice.

But, on the subject, it's cool that you can just go to jailbreakme.com now and install third party apps. This doesn't unlock the phone (at least directly), but you can easily add third party applications. And they patch a bug in the iPhone in the process...

[A_Traveller]

In the BBC news item about iPhone launch in the UK this quote caught my eye.

As many as 250,000 users in the US have unlocked the device using free and paid-for software to make the phone work on different networks, and to load third-party software not supported by Apple.

Regards

LINK

[nikster]

In the BBC news item about iPhone launch in the UK this quote caught my eye.

As many as 250,000 users in the US have unlocked the device using free and paid-for software to make the phone work on different networks, and to load third-party software not supported by Apple.

Regards

LINK

"As-many-as" is a misleading statement. Apple knows that 250,000 iPhones have been sold that have never been activated on AT&T. Therefore, those must be used unlocked.

It's a safe bet to say that the vast majority of these are used outside the USA.

People in the USA don't have much reason to unlock the phone - the only other mobile provider that can run the iPhone is T-mobile. The other operators use incompatible technology. And T-mobile in the USA if anything is worse than AT&T. I don't think anybody would go out of their way just to be able to switch to T-mobile - rather the opposite

Edited November 9, 2007 by nikster

[cdnvic]

How many of those have been purchased as gifts that eventually will be activated?

[Dissolution]

Sorry - but unless Thaivisa's servers are in the US (I thought they were in Singapore), what has the DMCA got to do with unlocking a phone in Thailand.

Apparently, the server is in Singapore.

IP Address:  203.174.84.82
IP Location:  Singapore - Expat Group

[Crushdepth]

Sorry - but unless Thaivisa's servers are in the US (I thought they were in Singapore), what has the DMCA got to do with unlocking a phone in Thailand.

Hear hear - US law is a US problem. It's irrelevant here (except perhaps if you are a US citizen).

[sweetchariot]

If you are a US citizen, you should check this out http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=152716&hl=

Totally off topic but very bloody funny!

[DamianMavis]

I think the consensus here and the point being hinted at is: there was no reason to uhm.. "hide" that post about how to unlock the iphone. There is no legal ramification to Thaivisa.

Damian

[Tywais]

I think the consensus here and the point being hinted at is: there was no reason to uhm.. "hide" that post about how to unlock the iphone. There is no legal ramification to Thaivisa.

Guess you need to re-read post number two, specifically the items in bold. I have said twice that it is not an issue with DCMA, but an issue with the IP lawyers of the two companies who are approaching this as copyright infringements. And to think that US laws don't apply, then you might want to look at the effect RIAA and MPAA watchdogs has had on International copyright infringements, both US agencies but with a long reach via country and International agencies under IP treaties.

Since admin has agreed that it shouldn't be posted, and 10 seconds google search can find sites who are willing to post it (for the moment) it's a mute point. Also, discussing moderation issues/decisions is against forum rules. If any members disagree with the action then you can take it up with admin.

[nikster]

I think the consensus here and the point being hinted at is: there was no reason to uhm.. "hide" that post about how to unlock the iphone. There is no legal ramification to Thaivisa.

Agreed.

There are no laws against unlocking phones anywhere in the world. The DMCA is to protect copyrights and inventions, not to help companies hawk their package deals. No court action has been taken anywhere in the world. Iphone unlocks are being discussed everywhere. Even posted on Engadget, Digg, and a few other large websites.

Tywais say what you will but as long as that-website-which-simply-unlocks-your-phone is still up and running, I'd think ThaiVisa is extremely safe from lawsuits.

[Guest Reimar]

I think the consensus here and the point being hinted at is: there was no reason to uhm.. "hide" that post about how to unlock the iphone. There is no legal ramification to Thaivisa.

Agreed.

There are no laws against unlocking phones anywhere in the world. The DMCA is to protect copyrights and inventions, not to help companies hawk their package deals. No court action has been taken anywhere in the world. Iphone unlocks are being discussed everywhere. Even posted on Engadget, Digg, and a few other large websites.

Tywais say what you will but as long as that-website-which-simply-unlocks-your-phone is still up and running, I'd think ThaiVisa is extremely safe from lawsuits.

The question was about the legal status. The legal status, which means law in it's written form, says it's against a law.

But: the written law and the practice to implent the law are two total different ways!

There will be not any problems for Thaivisa. Thaivisa Forum is an Dicussion Forum and do not submit the tools (software) which are needed to full fill the the final breach! Dicussions are not against any law and in cases like this one there is also a need "show" the real information as an kind of warning that people able to avoid a breach of existing law!

Discussions against the Forum Rule are a different thing. But is an discussion about unlocking a phone against the forum rules? I don't think so and I believe that this kind of discussion should be allowed because it is even a kind warning to those who didn't know how to handle such case.

And in an forum where can be quite openly discuss about torrents incl. the full display of the related website addresses, while torrents are to nearly 100% pirated stuff, there really shouldn't be a limitation to discuss Phone unlocking!

[Manchester]

Why all the exclamations?

Makes you look like " Angry Farang ! "