Hard Water From Well

[jaideeguy]

My well water is extremely hard...had it tested,but forget the numbers, so much calcium suspended in water that if i boil a litre, there will be over a tablespoon of white 'chalk' on the bottom.

staining glasses, stainless, windows, car, mirrors and increasing scale build-up in hot water heaters, valves, taps etc.

have done some research on google and see that there are many designs to choose from....manual backwash, metered, timer, and have only seen the manual stainless models here.

Anyone know of a shop in cm that has other than manual type? would prefer to oversize it, as i have a large water demand ......swimming pool.

and does anyone else up here in cm have this same problem?

[cloudhopper]

The guy at World Chemical on 261/4 Mahidon Rd speaks good English and will analyze a sample for you and make a recommendation. Also recommended has been Lana Water 219/6 Changpruek Rd (see pin) but I haven't been there myself.

[jaideeguy]

I did see the guy at world chemical, as it was he that tested my water and recomended a water softner, so i'm now searching for the best price, least maintenance unit. i will check out that shop, lana water.....btw, what's [see pin]?

[Naam]

I did see the guy at world chemical, as it was he that tested my water and recomended a water softner, so i'm now searching for the best price, least maintenance unit. i will check out that shop, lana water.....btw, what's [see pin]?

we discussed that problem already and i'm in the same boat. had a water softener installed when building my home but took only recently the valuable advice of "CDNVIC" that the resin grains which absorb the minerals need regular regeneration (using salt when backwashing). contractor came some days ago, mounted a salt injecting valve and regenerated (first time after more than one year). result = excellent. depending on average usage (including topping up the pool) the resin has to be regenerated every month, i.e. "least maintenance" does not really apply. cost in my case 300 Baht a month.

[jaideeguy]

Hey Dr,

Thanks for the input. a couple of questions.......

is your brine injector metered or do you just go on the assumed regeneration period of 1 month??

and do you use 300bhatt worth of salt??

and finally....what did the whole unit cost [including instalation]??

oh, one more...is your unit a branded or locally fabricated??

[Ta22]

i had stay in chiangmai for almost 9 years or more now .

seriously i lose count sometime i say 10 whhahaha

anyway i had alway buy bottle water .. the large 20 lirtre water go for 20 baht . and if you hunt around it can go as low as 16 baht .

well water .. chiangmai . i woul skip and not spend so much trouble ..

300 baht = 300 litre of water

can you drink that much every month ?

why the trouble . why not collect rain water and morning drew

[jaideeguy]

Well[pardon the pun]..............if you had read my OP, you would have read that i have a large household and swimming pool, not too practical....

[ZEAK]

I was looking at watersoftners a while back for a condo. Could not find much locally, was thinking about getting one from overseas. The water in my condo is not hard, but it does leave my skin dry and itchy. Was looking at a little compact one.

http://www.kinetico.com/KineticoSystems/WaterSofteners.aspx

[Naam]

Hey Dr,

Thanks for the input. a couple of questions.......

is your brine injector metered or do you just go on the assumed regeneration period of 1 month??

and do you use 300bhatt worth of salt??

and finally....what did the whole unit cost [including instalation]??

oh, one more...is your unit a branded or locally fabricated??

-brine injector is not metered. injection (actually it's simple suction by means of a venturi jet) is done manually.

-of course one doesn't use 300 Baht worth of salt but one has to be pay for the service. according to what i have seen approximately 5 kg of salt was used. my best guess is that the regeneration time of one month was set arbitrarily by the contractor.

-total cost including installation was (if i remember correctly) 28,000 Baht. for the venturi valve i paid another 2,000 Baht. the unit has one resin and one charcoal tank. i am thinking of doubling the softening capacity by removing the charcoal and use resin instead as my well water has neither smell nor does it contain iron. whether that is necessary my Old Lady will tell me after a month of use and a hundred showers.

-unit brand is "Pola".

[Naam]

can you drink that much every month ?

WHO or WHAT drinks water from a tap in Thailand (or anywhere else)?

[Steve2UK]

can you drink that much every month ?

WHO or WHAT drinks water from a tap in Thailand (or anywhere else)?

In the UK - probably about 99% of the population. The other 1% pay through the nose for designer-label bottles..........

[jaideeguy]

Thanks again for your info Naam....the reason i was asking about how was your brine injected was that my googling research has taught me that there are basicly three types of brine backwasning...manual, metered [by water volume] and timed [by timer] and was wondering what system you were using. sounds like manual if you have to have a service man once a month.

I also learned that the frequiency of backwashing depends on tha amount of calcium in water. the more calcium [measured in grains], the more brine needed to 'wash' the calcium off the resin granules

for 30kbhatt i want to know what i'm getting. i may be able to lower that price a little as my neighbor has a [manual backwash] w/stainless tank for sale and i'm sure that is a big part of the 30kbhatt.

once installed, i may consider to [temporarily] plumb into my swimming pool an inlet and outlet to recirculate and wash my calcium laden pool water. then any new water introduced will be pre softened.

also hoping that that a water softner will remove existing scale which is restricting the effeciency of my [on demand] water heaters which seem to have cooled off over the years [with calcium buildup?]

Then there are the [contravercial?] magnets on the incomming well water that are supposed to magnettically [magically]reverse the polorization of the calcium ions and make them just pass thru the system, but i have my doubts if something that simple and cheap will work or it would be the standard.

still trying to locate a water softner or [english speaking] plumber that can assemble my system up here in CM, so anyone in this area that knows of one, please tell.

[Naam]

Thanks again for your info Naam....the reason i was asking about how was your brine injected was that my googling research has taught me that there are basicly three types of brine backwasning...manual, metered [by water volume] and timed [by timer] and was wondering what system you were using. sounds like manual if you have to have a service man once a month.

it is manual JDGuy and quite a simple set-up with the venturi valve which makes it possible to tap into the suction line during pump operation.

I also learned that the frequiency of backwashing depends on tha amount of calcium in water. the more calcium [measured in grains], the more brine needed to 'wash' the calcium off the resin granules

i did not go into any details but will monitor or better "let monitor" the water softness by my wife and housemaid who drew my attention to the fact that our softener was not softening any more based on that i will increase or decrease the regeneration.

for 30kbhatt i want to know what i'm getting. i may be able to lower that price a little as my neighbor has a [manual backwash] w/stainless tank for sale and i'm sure that is a big part of the 30kbhatt.

that's understandable. actually i had only a simple water filter in mind when i built my home as i had no idea how hard my well water is. now i'm quite happy with the set-up.

once installed, i may consider to [temporarily] plumb into my swimming pool an inlet and outlet to recirculate and wash my calcium laden pool water. then any new water introduced will be pre softened.

in my case i planned that from the start. to top up the pool only water is used that passes the treatment first. unfortunately i filled the pool with well water at start-up and scale built up on tiles and grout. one of our chaps was busy for several days to pressure clean tiles and grout after we emptied the pool two weeks ago. refilled the pool with tankers as filling via the treatment would have been to tedious and too long.

also hoping that that a water softner will remove existing scale which is restricting the effeciency of my [on demand] water heaters which seem to have cooled off over the years [with calcium buildup?]

i have strong doubts that this will be the case and see no other possibility than to flush the water heaters with vinager.

Then there are the [contravercial?] magnets on the incomming well water that are supposed to magnettically [magically]reverse the polorization of the calcium ions and make them just pass thru the system, but i have my doubts if something that simple and cheap will work or it would be the standard.

your doubts are warranted

still trying to locate a water softner or [english speaking] plumber that can assemble my system up here in CM, so anyone in this area that knows of one, please tell.

PM me. my contractor speaks passable english and might install in your area. the regeneration you could do yourself as no rocket science is involved.

[Naam]

can you drink that much every month ?

WHO or WHAT drinks water from a tap in Thailand (or anywhere else)?

In the UK - probably about 99% of the population. The other 1% pay through the nose for designer-label bottles..........

that might be Steve. but i am a German. in Germany we use water to have showers, washing laundry, flushing toilets, extinguish fires, water the garden and for various other purposes but... we don't drink it.

[oxymoron]

that might be Steve. but i am a German. in Germany we use water to have showers, washing laundry, flushing toilets, extinguish fires, water the garden and for various other purposes but... we don't drink it.

Until it has been converted to Tasty Beer

[Steve2UK]

can you drink that much every month ?

WHO or WHAT drinks water from a tap in Thailand (or anywhere else)?

In the UK - probably about 99% of the population. The other 1% pay through the nose for designer-label bottles..........

that might be Steve. but i am a German. in Germany we use water to have showers, washing laundry, flushing toilets, extinguish fires, water the garden and for various other purposes but... we don't drink it.

Absolutely. I'm half-German and (while being born/raised a Brit) spent a lot of time there. My German grandparents would have had a fit if they saw me drinking water from the house tap - as opposed to the excellent (and cheap) mineral-spring water delivered by the crate. The exception was going to the Roman baths in the "Kur" part of town (Baden-Baden no less) where it was considered very health-giving to down a glass of the hot spring water - but that's not really tap water as we know it and I don't see Thai people "taking the waters" (internally, at least) at any of the hot springs around Chiang Mai. Neat for boiling eggs, though!

[cloudhopper]

Hey jaideeguy the guy at World solved my green color problem (see my post on swimming pool forum) but when I asked him about a softening system for my well he told me that there are no salt backwash systems locally available and so I'd have to change the resin. I still haven't checked with Lana Water to see what they can do. But at least according to Doc Naam it's possible, but maybe not in CM...let us know what you come up with!

[Naam]

Hey jaideeguy the guy at World solved my green color problem (see my post on swimming pool forum) but when I asked him about a softening system for my well he told me that there are no salt backwash systems locally available and so I'd have to change the resin. I still haven't checked with Lana Water to see what they can do. But at least according to Doc Naam it's possible, but maybe not in CM...let us know what you come up with!

i have resin too Cloudhopper but the regeneration of the resin (getting rid of the accumulated minerals on the resin grains) is done by backwash with brine.

[jaideeguy]

CH,

I just had a lengthy conversation with "Ui' at world chemicals and we disscused water softening systems and he confirmed the need to regularly backwash with a brine solution. the frequiency,depending upon the hardness of the water.

also learned that the typical thai domestic softners are placed after an areator on top of a water tank and then passes thru a carbon prefilter helps remove iron, smell and other trace minerals [magnesium etc] then water goes thru the resin beads that are stored in a stainless tank which has to be backwashed regularly with brine to remove calcium build-up and 'reactivates' them. replacing the resin beads is a lot more expensive than salt!!

luckily, i have a neighbor that has a 2nd hand unit for sale and just have to negotiate the price, then i have to find a plumber [that knows water softner systems] to re-install at my home. hopefully saving me half the cost of a new unit.

in my next post, i'll try to attach a foto of her system FYI. and i would apppreciate any info/prices you may find at lana water or any other shop in cm.

JD

[jaideeguy]

Struggling with uploading photo of 2nd hand water softner for sale by neighbor. price yet to be finalized.

but if i uploaded correctly, the foto should show two tanks....one stainless and other steel. in the background is the areator, where the well water enters the tank and gets oxygenated, then passes thru the carbon in steel tank, then passes thru the stainless resin tank and comes out soft .

note the top of the stainless tank which has a bolted hatch, that i assume to add the resin and the guy at 'world chemicals' said that a side port could be added to inject brine for backwashing.

sure looks like a maze of plumbing, valves [that i hope are still in working order after sitting idle for a few years]

a new set-up like this costs 15kbhatt++ and am wondering how much to offer.

any ideas???

[cloudhopper]

any ideas???

My idea would be to see what Lana has first; I'm hoping to get down there next Monday. I'd rather not trust my house water supply to that contraption plus a homemade backwasher....I would also even check out an import from the UK if a local shop isn't sure about it.

[Naam]

the guy at 'world chemicals' said that a side port could be added to inject brine for backwashing. sure looks like a maze of plumbing

the valves are necessary for regulating softness, bypassing or backwashing. the "side port" for brine to regenerate the resin is quite efficient and works on the "venturi" principle. i had it mounted ten days ago, there is a hose attached which sucks during backwashing the brine from a bucket.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Naam

[jaideeguy]

CH, please keep us posted as to what you find at lana, and i'm sure you are aware of import duties......my philosophy is to keep it simple and local............ when possible.

Naam, you live up to your handle and i appreciate your detailed input. i can see one advantage your system has over the one that i may purchase.....ball valves, where my 2nd hand one has gate valves, which are probably frozen from lack of use. would you recomend those pvc ball valves???they are cheaper and seem to work good, if used regularly.

and your pressure guages...are they necessary?? what kind of pressure are we working with??

[LaoPo]

the guy at 'world chemicals' said that a side port could be added to inject brine for backwashing. sure looks like a maze of plumbing

the valves are necessary for regulating softness, bypassing or backwashing. the "side port" for brine to regenerate the resin is quite efficient and works on the "venturi" principle. i had it mounted ten days ago, there is a hose attached which sucks during backwashing the brine from a bucket.

Those pics look a bit like the installation my brother installed in Spain, recently.

The water (salty) is pumped up from their own well, a few hundred meters downhill and filtered by this installation.

The water is exceptional soft, 'sweet', drinkable and they cook with it as well. The water quality is perfect as they had it tested several times.

LaoPo

[Bill97]

CH, please keep us posted as to what you find at lana, and i'm sure you are aware of import duties......my philosophy is to keep it simple and local............ when possible.

Naam, you live up to your handle and i appreciate your detailed input. i can see one advantage your system has over the one that i may purchase.....ball valves, where my 2nd hand one has gate valves, which are probably frozen from lack of use. would you recomend those pvc ball valves???they are cheaper and seem to work good, if used regularly.

and your pressure guages...are they necessary?? what kind of pressure are we working with??

Many grades of ball valves available in CM. Lana and some other filter and pump companies have the better ones than the hardware stores. Problem is often weak rusted out handles but if the handle goes you can still operate the valve with a wrench. Stainless is best and can be found but expensive.

[Naam]

Naam, you live up to your handle and i appreciate your detailed input. i can see one advantage your system has over the one that i may purchase.....ball valves, where my 2nd hand one has gate valves, which are probably frozen from lack of use. would you recomend those pvc ball valves???they are cheaper and seem to work good, if used regularly. and your pressure guages...are they necessary?? what kind of pressure are we working with??

if the pvc-valves of that old system are frozen (could be because of the minerals) it's a breeze and quite cheap to change them. i loved to do pvc-work myself. it's not rocket science.

the pressure gauges were necessary because i have two individual pumps (each 800 watts) for the house watersupply which are set at different cut in/off pressures. as both have their own tiny pressure tanks they were cycling on and off to often and i had to add a common pressure tank because i also installed a UV-disinfector which takes a few seconds to light up.

by the way, talking of rocket science. i did all my pool piping myself in my last home as i couldn't find a pool builder to follow my crazy ideas. here's an old picture without some additional piping and solenoid valves i added later

Edited November 15, 2007 by Naam

[jaideeguy]

Just wanted to post a report on my visit to 'lana water' inquiring about the cost of a water softener.

The owner does know his stuff and i was impressed with his english, but his prices were SKY HIGH!! In all fairness, he did want to oversize [40cm tanks] me to be safe, but at 113,900 bhatt [+ unknowns], it was three times what i had anticipated.

So, the search for a reasonably priced softner is still on.

Have heard that the big hardware shop [montri] on the corner of the superhiway and Changpuak has the hardware and will check there next time i'm in town. also, maybe i haven't mentioned that the owner of world chemicals [where they sell resin and activated charcoal as well as swimming pool chems] says that he has a plumber that can do the instalation, so i may cheap out and go for the 2nd hand tanks that my neighbor has for sale and sub out the instalation. the only issue is that the 2nd hand tanks are only 30cm and may be undersized, meaning less time between backwashing.

thanks CH for your directions and let's keep in touch thru this forum on how we solve our hard water problems.

any more info appreciated.....

[cloudhopper]

We went in to see the guy at Lana who sent an associate from Pang Mappa (Soppong) out to take a couple of samples from our well and filter effluent. They subsequently installed a softener which consists of a ~ 40X150cm SS filter can of typical type plumbed for backwashing, plus a second plastic tank plumbed in for regenerating the resin with salt water during the backwash phase. The system is manually operated. Unfortunately I wasn't here when it was all put in so will post again after my spouse explains the backwash proceedure etc. The house water feels noticeably softer now so we should see the end of all the scale problems caused by the hard well water. Total cost of installation (piggy-backed onto our existing system previously described) in Pai was 43,500 Baht.

[jaideeguy]

43,500bhatt is a lot cheaper than the system lana water designed for me that included stainless tank with resen, steel tank for carbon/ manganese, areator, pump and holding/settling tank. way over built and priced. I've since consulted with a more down to earth water 'expert' who suggested that i could get by with only adding the resin filter to my existing system....for under 20kbhatt. hopefully that will do the trick. he says that i can soften the water in my swimming pool by pumping the softened water into the pool to replace existing hard water. process could take a few days of continuing pumping, but if it works, it'll be worth it

i do wonder if by softening the water, it will remove the existing calcium build up on our water heaters, scale on tiles etc??

[cloudhopper]

Just make sure that the resin filter can be rinsed with brine to regenerate it. My system appears to use a primitive venturi to suck the brine into the filter inflow and doesn't look to be overly complicated now that I've seen it. Backwashing alone, like the first one I had, won't work for long. They also supplied a test kit which indicates when the water is getting hard again then it's time to regenerate the resin. I don't know if scale deposits will go back into solution with softer water, but time will tell...