Working With The Thai Mentality?

[initiala4]

I am sure most of us have to deal with how people work here. What are your thoughts?

Basically from what I have been seeing is that people tend to do things very slowly or doing things without much responsibility in general.

[WaiWai]

I am sure most of us have to deal with how people work here. What are your thoughts?

Good topic .

Basically from what I have been seeing is that people tend to do things very slowly or doing things without much responsibility in general.

Yes. Very hierarchical workplaces too; where workers don't question the directives of their leaders, who are always right .

General unwillingness to take responsibility causes much buck-passing and inertia. Decision-making can be painfully slow.

Little longer-term planning.

Co-workers bond and form a second family (often are related ) to make the best of long hours and low pay through friendship and fun.

Covert factions and rivalries can suddenly and dramatically emerge into view .

Keeping "face" is high on the agenda of individuals and the group at all times.

If a worker does not wish to carry out a task, they will not refuse openly but simply not carry out the task and not communicate the reason for their unwillingness.

Edited November 10, 2007 by WaiWai

[cm-happy]

GREAT!!

The beginnings of another Thai bashing thread. Just what we need.

[WaiWai]

GREAT!!

The beginnings of another Thai bashing thread. Just what we need.

No reason to "bash". It is all about understanding the culture we are in - a sometimes frustrating but fascinating, and never-ending, process

[xyborg]

<br />GREAT!!<br /><br />The beginnings of another Thai bashing thread. Just what we need.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Huh some people just dont like the truth do they!!

[chavy]

I am sure most of us have to deal with how people work here. What are your thoughts?

Good topic .

Basically from what I have been seeing is that people tend to do things very slowly or doing things without much responsibility in general.

Yes. Very hierarchical workplaces too; where workers don't question the directives of their leaders, who are always right .

General unwillingness to take responsibility causes much buck-passing and inertia. Decision-making can be painfully slow.

Little longer-term planning.

Co-workers bond and form a second family (often are related ) to make the best of long hours and low pay through friendship and fun.

Covert factions and rivalries can suddenly and dramatically emerge into view .

Keeping "face" is high on the agenda of individuals and the group at all times.

If a worker does not wish to carry out a task, they will not refuse openly but simply not carry out the task and not communicate the reason for their unwillingness.

took the words out my mouth

[initiala4]

GREAT!!

The beginnings of another Thai bashing thread. Just what we need.

its not a thread about bashing...i just recently moved to Thailand and just started to see these things. Sooo basically I was wondering if others are seeing what I am.

[WaiWai]

GREAT!!

The beginnings of another Thai bashing thread. Just what we need.

its not a thread about bashing...i just recently moved to Thailand and just started to see these things. Sooo basically I was wondering if others are seeing what I am.

If you google someing like "Thai workplace intercultural communication" you will turn up lots of interesting reading.

However, I am also really interested in hearing personal responses and anecdotes.

[PhilHarries]

GREAT!!

The beginnings of another Thai bashing thread. Just what we need.

No reason to "bash". It is all about understanding the culture we are in - a sometimes frustrating but fascinating, and never-ending, process

My thoughts exactly, if people like cm-happy can refrain from the inflammatory posts this has a chance of being a very informative thread.

If I had the benefits of the internet and a forum like this back in '92 when I first went to work in Thailand I could have avoided many of the gaffs I made and understood workplace relationships better.

[WaiWai]

My thoughts exactly, if people can refrain from the inflammatory posts this has a chance of being a very informative thread.

Yes, truly . Our combined experience here must be vast. We can put together the definitive "guide to working in the LOS" .

[Smithson]

I've worked in several Thai offices and can relate to a lot of what is said, but now running my own business we don't see many of these problems. A lot of it comes down to the bosses who encourage the hierarchy and come down hard on their workers for mistakes, thus discouraging them from showing initiative.

[WaiWai]

I've worked in several Thai offices and can relate to a lot of what is said, but now running my own business we don't see many of these problems. A lot of it comes down to the bosses who encourage the hierarchy and come down hard on their workers for mistakes, thus discouraging them from showing initiative.

I am sure you are correct.

Apart from your bringing different expectations and practises, just the fact that you are not Thai probably changes the dynamics hugely. Possibly they see you as, not their equal, exactly, but not their superior - just apart from the system. I wonder how this does or does not affect the relationships amongst the Thais.

[Smithson]

In one place I worked we needed to come up with one of the charts showing the bosses up the top and the various positions of all staff below them.

We didn't want to do it, but it was necessary for our office registration. What seemed simple at first took weeks because the Thai staff would find reason to question each chart. Feeling it wasn't important we pretty much went along with what they thought represented the state of things.

Big mistake! We found ourselves locked into a structure that didn't work, because the Thais staff would only listen to the boss, because she was the higher up person on the chart.

If you own the business I think you can get around a lot of the problems and there are MANY things that make Thai staff favorable to western staff (no union, no complaints).

But if you're an employee and your boss is Thai or even Asian, then find yourself a comfortable place and stay there. Don't rock the boat or think achieving things is important.

[sgunn65]

I have been here a fortnight now and I am in the process of setting up a business and that is an eye-opener!

I had to have a medical which confirms that I don't have elephantitus, leprosy tuberculosis or dug and alcohol addiction. This was all confirmed by weighing me testing my blood pressure and listening to my heart and stomach through a stethoscope. The miracles of modern science!

The paperwork is legion, over 100 signatures which I had to repeat as they were not all identical and , it seems, this is enough to be rejected.

I think my biggest frustration is my own expectations which are based on the UK! I need to get beyond that. FOr instance the other day I got myself a bit lost. I found a cab and asked to be taken to Thong Lor Soi 21. I said this is English and Thai. But I pronounced it Thong rather than Tong. He looked at me like I was an idiot. I repeated myself a few times but in the end gave up as he just continued to stare.

Had I been in Don Muang maybe i could have been more understanding. I was actually on Soi 25 Thong Lor ( I just didn't know it) and it took me 5 minutes to walk there!!!

My expectation of the UK is that we would have a guess what the person was saying. But this is one example of several in two weeks where I have tried to ask for something in Thai and been stared at.

Yes my Thai is poor! But I am trying. And I have had this happen with my wife there who has then said the same thing and told me that she thought my pronounciation had been fine. It is very frustrating and does make me much more self concious about trying to learn the language.

I would love to know the answer as my wife can't tell me. I am certainly not having a go but trying to understand.

[mrtoad]

I have been here a fortnight now and I am in the process of setting up a business and that is an eye-opener!

I had to have a medical which confirms that I don't have elephantitus, leprosy tuberculosis or dug and alcohol addiction. This was all confirmed by weighing me testing my blood pressure and listening to my heart and stomach through a stethoscope. The miracles of modern science!

The paperwork is legion, over 100 signatures which I had to repeat as they were not all identical and , it seems, this is enough to be rejected.

I think my biggest frustration is my own expectations which are based on the UK! I need to get beyond that. FOr instance the other day I got myself a bit lost. I found a cab and asked to be taken to Thong Lor Soi 21. I said this is English and Thai. But I pronounced it Thong rather than Tong. He looked at me like I was an idiot. I repeated myself a few times but in the end gave up as he just continued to stare.

Had I been in Don Muang maybe i could have been more understanding. I was actually on Soi 25 Thong Lor ( I just didn't know it) and it took me 5 minutes to walk there!!!

My expectation of the UK is that we would have a guess what the person was saying. But this is one example of several in two weeks where I have tried to ask for something in Thai and been stared at.

Yes my Thai is poor! But I am trying. And I have had this happen with my wife there who has then said the same thing and told me that she thought my pronounciation had been fine. It is very frustrating and does make me much more self concious about trying to learn the language.

I would love to know the answer as my wife can't tell me. I am certainly not having a go but trying to understand.

What you have said, rings true as it has happened to me on numerous occasions. I am not particularly excellent at Thai, but can string a few sentences together, and for basic instrustions like directions and explaining where I want to go to, I have no problem. My feeling is that often, the Taxi drivers just don't listen to what you are saying, they see a Farang and don't expect them to speak any Thai, hence the reason that you have to repeat the same thing several times.

As regards the paperwork, the paper trail that they have for everything is just a way of creating jobs.

Don't worry too much, the longer you're here, the less that it will bother you, just go with the flow.

[TonyLeung]

What is it that you guys do in Thailand?

[Smithson]

Apart from your bringing different expectations and practises, just the fact that you are not Thai probably changes the dynamics hugely. Possibly they see you as, not their equal, exactly, but not their superior - just apart from the system. I wonder how this does or does not affect the relationships amongst the Thais.

Thais can be sensitive about working with non-Thais, it's important that they don't develop a strong dislike for you, while also not thinking your soft. Respect both ways is very important.

I try to stay apart from them, give them their space. But my wife is close with them, eats with them and brings in food she's cooked, which helps create a sense of equality. Every month or so we take them all out to eat.

She also speaks Isaan with them and acts very basic, not showing off, talking hi-so crap etc.

Our staff are involved in production, we've only got one office worker, so there's not to much politics. I think a lot of the hierarchical stuff comes from the education system and relates to working in offices, who has more education etc. In the west there'd be a fair share of this type of BS also.

If staff talk to me I always have them sit down, not like they're waiting to serve me. Before asking them to do things I get feedback on the job, what problems they've found, what suggestions they may have. They're doing the job, so probably know more about it than me. It's taken a while but they seem to be willing to make suggestions.

The downside of this is there's a lack of leadership outside of me or my wife.

[DamianMavis]

I have been here a fortnight now and I am in the process of setting up a business and that is an eye-opener!

I had to have a medical which confirms that I don't have elephantitus, leprosy tuberculosis or dug and alcohol addiction. This was all confirmed by weighing me testing my blood pressure and listening to my heart and stomach through a stethoscope. The miracles of modern science!

The paperwork is legion, over 100 signatures which I had to repeat as they were not all identical and , it seems, this is enough to be rejected.

I think my biggest frustration is my own expectations which are based on the UK! I need to get beyond that. FOr instance the other day I got myself a bit lost. I found a cab and asked to be taken to Thong Lor Soi 21. I said this is English and Thai. But I pronounced it Thong rather than Tong. He looked at me like I was an idiot. I repeated myself a few times but in the end gave up as he just continued to stare.

Had I been in Don Muang maybe i could have been more understanding. I was actually on Soi 25 Thong Lor ( I just didn't know it) and it took me 5 minutes to walk there!!!

My expectation of the UK is that we would have a guess what the person was saying. But this is one example of several in two weeks where I have tried to ask for something in Thai and been stared at.

Yes my Thai is poor! But I am trying. And I have had this happen with my wife there who has then said the same thing and told me that she thought my pronounciation had been fine. It is very frustrating and does make me much more self concious about trying to learn the language.

I would love to know the answer as my wife can't tell me. I am certainly not having a go but trying to understand.

A soft th - THONG does sound completely different than a hard t - TONG so that is a bad example. You do need to work on your Thai seriously if you expect to be understood. You will be dealing with country bumpkins alot (in taxis) and they will have very little imagination as to what you are trying to say if it is not clear. Imagine a Chinese person going to the tiny villages in England and trying to be understood by the equivalent of an English "redneck" that has never even heard a VERY thick Asian accent before. They will not understand. Your complete lack of TONES will also make you hard to understand. I think your wife is being nice, work harder heh. But even when your Thai is clear you will still have difficulty occasionally, most of the time I'm understood instantly... but then "Billy Bob" the farmer from down south is my driver and he refuses to understand....

On topic: I have Thai staff, my biggest problem is reliablitiy. They dont see a problem with having to go away for 2 weeks to 2 months to handle some family "emergency" or fulfilling some Thai cultural obligation. I could understand once but these things pop up all year with different staff members. In the West and U.K. Im sure most employees understand that if you just pick up and leave you dont have a job when you come back. I get decent work out of them, it's just the reliablity that is hard to cope with. I've had to make a special payment for some of them, they get paid per day they SHOW UP since its obvious I cannot rely on them to follow any kind of schedule. They are low level employees so its not too big a problem (although... if they were reliable they would move up but that concept eludes them). However the main employee (after much training and some threatening of loss of job) is now VERY GOOD at sticking to his schedule, if he cannot work the schedule he lets me know in advance which is better than the others. I have big plans for him if he sticks around...... we will see.

Damian

[DamianMavis]

What is it that you guys do in Thailand?

I run a martial arts school business. I'm sure everyone else here has VERY different businesses and companies that are more of an office atmosphere.

Damian

[Valjean]

I’ve managed a team of about 25 Thais in a multi-national for about 2 ½ years. I don’t think they are necessarily typical just based on education, working in other multi-nationals, travel, etc. but they are Thai.

Great work ethic, super dedicated, will work nights and weekends. In fact my bigger challenge is getting them to push back on each other sometimes. The easy going, let’s get along ethic sometimes clashes with “that is YOUR job not mine – YOU need to do your job”.

Having fun as a team is important. Lunch, going out. Overnight team trips. Some members of my team take holidays together.

Speaking up and confrontation are issues sometimes. One time I was trying to get feedback on our new team admin who was struggling a little. In my 1:1 meetings with staff I’d ask them how she was doing. Everyone pretty much said that everything was OK. Then one fairly junior member of my team that I have a good relationship with gave me the same “everything is OK” response. Then she paused and said “you know sometimes people don’t want to say something bad about someone”. “Really?” I asked “you mean some people might say everything is OK when they don’t mean it?” She nodded yes and gave me one of those very special Thai smiles.

Now there are two ways you can take this. One you can see this as an example of what is wrong with Thais. You can even think they are lying to you. For me it was realizing how blind I was to Thai culture and how I had to adapt my communication. To listen more, to let conversations talk around issues in a roundabout way sometimes. Don’t take first answers on face value. And likewise especially because we do work in a multi-national and I am America to coach them on being more direct. We meet in the middle. But still I am careful about too many nodding heads when I ask “is this OK with everyone”. It’s good to cultivate some relationships with peers and some on your team who will level with you about things. And sometimes I just confront the nodding heads “I see that everyone agrees with me but I think some of you have concerns – let’s all be upfront about this”. It all just takes some time and two way trust.

Someone once coached me that “What” questions are better than “Why”. “What happened?” is less confrontational that “Why did this happen?”. If you let the story be told you’ll get to the why but right off the bat you may be putting someone on the spot to say something they don’t want to say.

Listen carefully, have fun, show respect to everyone, don’t yell, allow time for chit chat, share food, and did I say: Have Fun!

[sbk]

Excellent post Valjean, you have hit most of the cultural nails on the head. Even that last sentence, especially the bolded part (which I love btw and it took me a few years to understand how important it was to all Thais)

Listen carefully, have fun, show respect to everyone, don’t yell, allow time for chit chat, share food, and did I say: Have Fun!

[GuestHouse]

I've worked with teams of Thai engineers in Thailand on a number of large projects for major internationals. My observation is that the Thai engineers, designers and construction staff did as good if not better job than might have been expected from a UK based team of engineers and designers.

More topically, I believe that the Thai engineers, designers and construction staff where often prevented from demostrating how good they really are by expatriate 'Managers' who consistantly claim that the Thai staff are not up to the job and need an expat to hold their hand (thereby justifying their own position in Thailand).

In one laughable exchange I had an expat manager who had been running his department for over 8 years tell me he couldn't get his Thai staff to reliably produce a spread sheet - My own staff where turning out new practices that was not only meeting an international client's requirements but being adopted as thier standard.

The three Thais working with me in Rome performed at a level that our client remarked was 'Outstanding'.

There are too many expats willing to run down the work Thais can produce and do produce - the reasoning is as I say above.

If the Thais can do the job well (and they can) then there is no need for the expat (and in the vast majority of cases I say there is not).

Edited November 10, 2007 by GuestHouse

[JetsetBkk]

I had to have a medical which confirms that I don't have elephantitus, leprosy tuberculosis or drug and alcohol addiction. This was all confirmed by weighing me testing my blood pressure and listening to my heart and stomach through a stethoscope. The miracles of modern science!

Sounds like the same form I had to get my doctor to sign. He didn't check me at all - just laughed and signed it.

[Samuian]

"Thais mean Business"

"Culture Shock Thailand"

are 2 books worthwhile reading!

Many topics for better understanding of the mechanics of Thai culture and social fabric.

Important is that we do not have to forget that we are conditioned in our very own (western) way as well

and this doesn't make us superior in any way!

Everyone trying to push a thoroughly western agenda or even worse, make it HIS/HER Agenda, is 99% bound to fail unless he/she is in a highly westernized working environment.

I found that in Asia a many professionals do have a great ability to work around problems and still find a solution

which pleases everyone, not always but many times!

One thing is for sure, we are very different and THIS is the Bridge which has to be tackled FIRST!

[elkangorito]

I've managed a team of about 25 Thais in a multi-national for about 2 ½ years. I don't think they are necessarily...

Listen carefully, have fun, show respect to everyone, don't yell, allow time for chit chat, share food, and did I say: Have Fun!

Yep. Great post.

This is how we do things at my place of work. Although, I must point out that mediocrity need not be tolerated.

The "Thai" way, I think, is great as opposed to the cold & stark "work ethic" of the western world.

This is the first time in my life that I've ever had "fun" in my job. It's also the first time in my life that my job is essentially "stress free".

Respect is both deserved & earnt in Thailand. If you do as Valjean says, you will not have any major dramas.

[IMA_FARANG]

I am sure most of us have to deal with how people work here. What are your thoughts?

Basically from what I have been seeing is that people tend to do things very slowly or doing things without much responsibility in general.

Oh really, and how long have you been living in Thailand? Are you sure you have a hard lock on the reasoning behind why many Thai workers seem indifferent to "lack of responsibility" as you imply?

First of all, what happens to a worker in a Thai office who tries to excel and stand out at his or her job. They are not "team players" to the other workers. Then, if they do something that benefits the company, do you think that they (the individual worker) will be rewarded?

There are a lot of reasons in Thai work practices and the methods of compensation for work for why it often seems to be foolish to excel. If the company makes a profit do the Thai workers necessarily benefit from that profit. Or is it the boss (who might be an expatriate farang) who gets the promotion.

And to top it all off, is it really true that hard work and dedication make a Thai worker better off than the average worker who just gets by? Take a long careful look at the tax laws in Thailand, and tell me that those who work harder to earn money are better off than those who don't.

I'm not criticising, but just take some time to look at how work and society actually runs in Thailand before you make judgements. There are usually reasons why rational people chose a certain course over another one. From my experience, trying to excel at work in Thailand is not always a rational choice.

[Cobalt60]

I find at the top end, the time to get anything progressed can be so frustrating. I feel it all stems from the fear of accusations of corruption being levelled when contracts or the start of tendering etc are begining and the careful covering of 'ass's' ,that inhibit the process. I cant blame anyone for that, but learning the why's and wherefores help.

3 years I have been on one project. In the end one learns, but its not an easy lesson if you want to crack on and get making.

The rules in place to make sure contracts are above board and corruption free also add to the slow progress. I understand all about them, why they are there and also accept the need for them, but boy do they bog you down.

If government money is involved its worse and if the government has a quick change, all progress made is lost and its return to the start, do not pass go, where did you get that 200 pounds from ?

[initiala4]

I am sure most of us have to deal with how people work here. What are your thoughts?

Basically from what I have been seeing is that people tend to do things very slowly or doing things without much responsibility in general.

Oh really, and how long have you been living in Thailand? Are you sure you have a hard lock on the reasoning behind why many Thai workers seem indifferent to "lack of responsibility" as you imply?

First of all, what happens to a worker in a Thai office who tries to excel and stand out at his or her job. They are not "team players" to the other workers. Then, if they do something that benefits the company, do you think that they (the individual worker) will be rewarded?

There are a lot of reasons in Thai work practices and the methods of compensation for work for why it often seems to be foolish to excel. If the company makes a profit do the Thai workers necessarily benefit from that profit. Or is it the boss (who might be an expatriate farang) who gets the promotion.

And to top it all off, is it really true that hard work and dedication make a Thai worker better off than the average worker who just gets by? Take a long careful look at the tax laws in Thailand, and tell me that those who work harder to earn money are better off than those who don't.

I'm not criticising, but just take some time to look at how work and society actually runs in Thailand before you make judgements. There are usually reasons why rational people chose a certain course over another one. From my experience, trying to excel at work in Thailand is not always a rational choice.

Well first off I have been here for almost a year already. I basically look after a group of people that consist of 30 people. In every case there is always a motivated person and a few more unmotivated people.

[Pundi64]

GREAT!!

The beginnings of another Thai bashing thread. Just what we need.

LOL, LOL, LOL

[Thaddeus]

Well first off I have been here for almost a year already. I basically look after a group of people that consist of 30 people. In every case there is always a motivated person and a few more unmotivated people.

Note to self.

Send PM in twelve months.