Cutting An Employee's Salary

[camerata]

Now she's sending me smart-aleck remarks in emails and on Messenger and her performance has dropped off dramatically. She's making mistakes, whether on purpose or not I don't know, and it's starting to affect my business.

From this I think it's obvious that she has decided she wants either the raise or the 6 months' severance pay. In my experience it is very difficult to fire someone in a situation like this. The company I work for always starts with a formal written warning that includes specifics of what is expected from the employee over the next 3 months - preferably some kind of project that is measurable. But a crafty employee can usually get around this. I had one who failed to complete the assignment set, despite help from me, and then had the cheek to claim that my instructions weren't clear.

Since it costs nothing for an employee to take an employer to the Labour Court, and the court is employee-friendly, many won't hesitate to do this. Reasonable employers don't fire these people, they just lay them off, pay the severance and find some face-saving way of explaining it. My company will always remove access to sensitive information and cancel access to computer accounts if there is any hint of dissatisfaction. Unreasonable employers will often make life so miserable for an employee they want to get rid of that they quit of their own accord. This is known as beep awk - being squeezed out.

Frankly, I don't think your employee is going to agree to less than the full 6 months when she can get 25k a month for fooling around or take you to the Labour Court if fired. And given her job description I doubt you can measure her bad performance to the satisfaction of the Labour Court. It might be easier just to explain to her that the economy is bad, you need to cut costs so you are going to do her job yourself. Pay her off without acrimony and then hire someone cheaper after a month.

[blakestree]

If she sent you an email saying that it would be easy to steal from you, that could possibly be considered a threat against your property, and who knows, maybe she has done it in the past, which is why she knows it is so easy to steal from you.

Do you have an accountant. I would have one go through the books over the last period when she began to act out. As far as I know, emails are admissable in court, as long as you can prove they were from her, which should be easy to do.

I would try to have a serious talk to her about it, and if she continues to show you disdain, its time to act. It might be worth it to pay out the 150,000 baht just to get rid of her, because she could do way more damage than that to your business and its reputation. Who knows what she could be telling clients while she is on the phone?

[blizzard]

buying loyalty? is that a farang buznit concept that works?

[sonicdragon]

buying loyalty? is that a farang buznit concept that works?

What's a "buznit concept" ? In fact, what is "buznit" ?

[jackr]

The OP does have a dilemma to confront and I’m not sure there is an easy way out BUT:-

In future can I suggest you do what we did when I worked for a multinational here in Thailand. Hired the vast majority our local staff through various labour hire companies. They are then responsible for performance etc. All I had to do was tell them who I wanted and who I didn’t within my area of responsibility.

I’m sure you will not be paying 25K Baht for an English speaking mail sorter.

Now she's sending me smart-aleck remarks in emails and on Messenger and her performance has dropped off dramatically. She's making mistakes, whether on purpose or not I don't know, and it's starting to affect my business.

From this I think it's obvious that she has decided she wants either the raise or the 6 months' severance pay. In my experience it is very difficult to fire someone in a situation like this. The company I work for always starts with a formal written warning that includes specifics of what is expected from the employee over the next 3 months - preferably some kind of project that is measurable. But a crafty employee can usually get around this. I had one who failed to complete the assignment set, despite help from me, and then had the cheek to claim that my instructions weren't clear.

Since it costs nothing for an employee to take an employer to the Labour Court, and the court is employee-friendly, many won't hesitate to do this. Reasonable employers don't fire these people, they just lay them off, pay the severance and find some face-saving way of explaining it. My company will always remove access to sensitive information and cancel access to computer accounts if there is any hint of dissatisfaction. Unreasonable employers will often make life so miserable for an employee they want to get rid of that they quit of their own accord. This is known as beep awk - being squeezed out.

Frankly, I don't think your employee is going to agree to less than the full 6 months when she can get 25k a month for fooling around or take you to the Labour Court if fired. And given her job description I doubt you can measure her bad performance to the satisfaction of the Labour Court. It might be easier just to explain to her that the economy is bad, you need to cut costs so you are going to do her job yourself. Pay her off without acrimony and then hire someone cheaper after a month.

More good advice... or you could go the 10k route.

[Galong]

Wow, thanks again for yet more helpful advice or insight.

Camerata, love the Beep Awk idea...

I am in Phuket and I am really tired of this place. I am considering relocating to Phang Nga Town or somewhere else. I guess this would be a way to get rid of her and not have her lose face (not that that is high on my priority list right now).

Yep, I am very nice to my staff. Perhaps, as some of you pointed out, this is seen as a weakness. Crap! I was brought up to respect people and give a nice wage for a nice day of work. I guess I am a fool... that sucks.

I will go to see an attorney soon and see what my options are.

Thanks again guys!

[maccaroni man]

I too have found myself in these type of labor issues, sometimes it was best to just pay them off and move on. In other cases when i was in the mood to play games i changed their schedules, put them on a strick time clock, and did what ever i could to help them punish me and quit. I have concluded it is easiest to cut the head off the snake and do all the damage control that has already been suggested.

[englishoak]

Seems to me this employee is no longer that bothered about her job or has illusions of being indispensible to your business, either way the trust has gone . I would not be comfortable with this at all and would take immediate steps to protect my business. If you have to check everything she does from now on there is no point her being there anyway.A thought on the Thai side is to try and save her face and let her down as gently as possible citing bad profits etc whilst also being firm.

I would certainly see a lawyer for piece of mind first but also be prepared to pay the 6mths as compensation, after all 5 years is a long time and you do owe her basic rights of redundancy. Move on and do NOT overpay so much in future.

Good Luck

[Smithson]

Out of curiosity, how common is it for workers to take the boss to court? It seems these laws only apply to the well paid office workers. How many 'low skilled' and non-office workers take their bosses to court? Are these ppl also covered by the same laws?

[steveromagnino]

Out of curiosity, how common is it for workers to take the boss to court? It seems these laws only apply to the well paid office workers. How many 'low skilled' and non-office workers take their bosses to court? Are these ppl also covered by the same laws?

Some. The reality is she is not breaking the labour laws now, and is (from looking at it at both sides) possibly able to justify that she has been hard done by in not receiving any raise. The courts here and everywhere else in the world tend to take the sides of employees.

I would suggest - if relocating - advise all staff the company is going to be wound up, and shut the doors, no need to pay anyone - fairly drastic and mean.

Or.....

Bring her into the office, explain that you see she is clearly not performing which you conclude is due to boredom, so then see if she is willing to sign a new contract which has very clear performance guidelines and an immediate small raise; put in some specific guidelines about what constitutes her job including time to work, lunch breaks, use of MSN, everything. Give her more responsibility; with more money comes more work.

Then once you have the new contract, you can meet her weekly and if she isn't shaping up, then start giving warnings and whatever and building up that papertrail.

Who knows, maybe she was bored, and can shape up.

If not, she won't suspect much, and you will have an airtight case if after 3+ warnings of shortfalls all documented, that you can get rid of her either free, or pay her out one month and that's it.

Or...to be honest i'd recommend you just talk to her over dinner about what her future plans are, and offer to pay her out to leave. 25k X 6 months is almost nothing; thats what, 150k. If you offer her less, she can always come back and sue you for the rest anyway most likely if she wanted to.

[Galong]

Out of curiosity, how common is it for workers to take the boss to court? It seems these laws only apply to the well paid office workers. How many 'low skilled' and non-office workers take their bosses to court? Are these ppl also covered by the same laws?

Some. The reality is she is not breaking the labour laws now, and is (from looking at it at both sides) possibly able to justify that she has been hard done by in not receiving any raise. The courts here and everywhere else in the world tend to take the sides of employees.

I would suggest - if relocating - advise all staff the company is going to be wound up, and shut the doors, no need to pay anyone - fairly drastic and mean.

Or.....

Bring her into the office, explain that you see she is clearly not performing which you conclude is due to boredom, so then see if she is willing to sign a new contract which has very clear performance guidelines and an immediate small raise; put in some specific guidelines about what constitutes her job including time to work, lunch breaks, use of MSN, everything. Give her more responsibility; with more money comes more work.

Then once you have the new contract, you can meet her weekly and if she isn't shaping up, then start giving warnings and whatever and building up that papertrail.

Who knows, maybe she was bored, and can shape up.

If not, she won't suspect much, and you will have an airtight case if after 3+ warnings of shortfalls all documented, that you can get rid of her either free, or pay her out one month and that's it.

Or...to be honest i'd recommend you just talk to her over dinner about what her future plans are, and offer to pay her out to leave. 25k X 6 months is almost nothing; thats what, 150k. If you offer her less, she can always come back and sue you for the rest anyway most likely if she wanted to.

Solid advice steveromagnino, thanks!

I do wonder if relocating to a different province would mean that I don't have to pay severance pay. I would think that I'd still have to pay it. Perhaps if I invite her to move with us and she doesn't want to that would be a factor.... any thoughts?

Thanks...

[onethailand]

Relocation won't help much if I recall correctly. The employee can either choose to relocate as well, or else they can opt not to relocate and be entitled to 50% of severance pay. At least that's only half the burden.

Company being wound up may not help either, especially if the employees catch on to what you are up to.

Workers will almost always threaten to take the employer to court - they will involve "relatives" who work for the Labour Court, etc. If they know they have a good case, you could be in trouble. If, on the other hand, they think that they might fall foul because of some problem (imaginary or otherwise) that they might have created, they usually back off. You would have to have a pretty good idea of the employee's mentality to figure this one out - but you could always "accidentally" drop or forget a sheet of paper with the "easy to cheat your company" email on it somewhere near her...

[Galong]

Relocation won't help much if I recall correctly. The employee can either choose to relocate as well, or else they can opt not to relocate and be entitled to 50% of severance pay. At least that's only half the burden.

You would have to have a pretty good idea of the employee's mentality to figure this one out - but you could always "accidentally" drop or forget a sheet of paper with the "easy to cheat your company" email on it somewhere near her...

Thanks onethailand!

I'll ask my attorney about the 50% severance pay if she doesn't want to relocate. That's a lot better than 150K.

I'm not sure if emails hold up in court as they can be manipulated. I recall someone telling me that before. But again, I reckon an attorney will know whether this is true or not.

Thanks again...

[onethailand]

Relocation won't help much if I recall correctly. The employee can either choose to relocate as well, or else they can opt not to relocate and be entitled to 50% of severance pay. At least that's only half the burden.

You would have to have a pretty good idea of the employee's mentality to figure this one out - but you could always "accidentally" drop or forget a sheet of paper with the "easy to cheat your company" email on it somewhere near her...

Thanks onethailand!

I'll ask my attorney about the 50% severance pay if she doesn't want to relocate. That's a lot better than 150K.

I'm not sure if emails hold up in court as they can be manipulated. I recall someone telling me that before. But again, I reckon an attorney will know whether this is true or not.

Thanks again...

Don't worry about using the email in court - the fact that you've suddenly - and "accidentally" - let the employee know you've printed out a hard copy will be enough to create quite a bit of self-doubt which might cause her to think twice about going to court.

[Galong]

Today justice was served...

I just got back from spending a couple hours at the police station.

My office manager had to pay back 55,000 Baht for starters. Next, my accountant will go back over the past three years' worth of accounting and see if she owes us more. Plus, if the revenue department audits us for anything that she did, she is responsible for the tax AND the penalty.

I did have a good poke at her though... when this 'deal' was first put forth I said, "nope, not enough, I want her to be put in jail!" My accountant was there and she said, "she's got a family"... to which I replied, "so do I and I can't see mine this year because my over-paid staff stole money from me. Her family can come see her in jail." I had to wind her up a bit for all the suffering she's caused me and my wife.

At the end of the day, I'm just glad to be rid of her evil A55 and I've learned a lesson about trust vs control. As much as I dislike accounting, it looks like I'm going to be stuck checking every little thing that goes on in the company.

Let's just say that once everyone else in the company hears about how this went down, I seriously doubt anyone would consider 'tipping' themselves even an extra 10 baht.

Now I'm going after a former guide who borrowed 8,000 Baht from us and then suddenly up and quit. He won't answer his phone, but I know where he lives and we've got a contract stating that he'd pay the money back 1000 Baht per month at a time... no interest. This contract is all my lawyer needs to go after him.

Lessons learned... stop being a nice boss and start being a serious boss who isn't going to let anyone get away with anything.

I reckon I'll finally get a good night's sleep.... it's been a while.

[junkofdavid2]

Today justice was served...

I just got back from spending a couple hours at the police station.

My office manager had to pay back 55,000 Baht for starters. Next, my accountant will go back over the past three years' worth of accounting and see if she owes us more. Plus, if the revenue department audits us for anything that she did, she is responsible for the tax AND the penalty.

I did have a good poke at her though... when this 'deal' was first put forth I said, "nope, not enough, I want her to be put in jail!" My accountant was there and she said, "she's got a family"... to which I replied, "so do I and I can't see mine this year because my over-paid staff stole money from me. Her family can come see her in jail." I had to wind her up a bit for all the suffering she's caused me and my wife.

At the end of the day, I'm just glad to be rid of her evil A55 and I've learned a lesson about trust vs control. As much as I dislike accounting, it looks like I'm going to be stuck checking every little thing that goes on in the company.

Let's just say that once everyone else in the company hears about how this went down, I seriously doubt anyone would consider 'tipping' themselves even an extra 10 baht.

Now I'm going after a former guide who borrowed 8,000 Baht from us and then suddenly up and quit. He won't answer his phone, but I know where he lives and we've got a contract stating that he'd pay the money back 1000 Baht per month at a time... no interest. This contract is all my lawyer needs to go after him.

Lessons learned... stop being a nice boss and start being a serious boss who isn't going to let anyone get away with anything.

I reckon I'll finally get a good night's sleep.... it's been a while.

Nice to hear that!

However, I must insist that she MUST see some jail time... even if you set her free after about 1 week. (Note that if you do set her free, you should not sign anything 'absolving' her in the case nor imply that it was a 'mistake' and she was actually innocent. You should have the power to reopen the case if necessary if she tries revenge or whatever. You may also be sued for the 'mistake').

If you don't let her see jail time at all, that sends a message to your remaining employees that they can steal from you but will never go to jail and at most, will simply have to 'pay back' money. They'll be willing to take that risk in the future because the reward to risk ratio is not bad; and you'll be considered a WEAK enforcer of honesty.

I did that once, and set 2 of my supervisors free from jail after about a week and after their families coughed up (some) of the money they were caught embezzling (although i'm sure there was more which was not found out). I had to stand firm against their families pleading and crying to me, but it was worth it.

This was not in Thailand but in a nearby southeast asian country with a very similar biz and political culture of corruption. Make sure you tip the copper handling the case.

Edited April 26, 2008 by junkofdavid2

[onnut]

you are living in Phuket, I am sure you can get a tuk tuk driver to wack her for a few thousand baht.

job done.

then re locate really fast.....

[Galong]

If you don't let her see jail time at all, that sends a message to your remaining employees that they can steal from you but will never go to jail and at most, will simply have to 'pay back' money. They'll be willing to take that risk in the future because the reward to risk ratio is not bad; and you'll be considered a WEAK enforcer of honesty.

Thanks for this junkofdavid2. I wanted her to see jail time, but my lawyer advised against it.

The police also said that if anything 'odd' or violent happens to me, she's the prime suspect.

I value your opinion, but I think the rest of my crew will take a look at this and realize that there could be consequences. She did lose her high-paying job, she had to pay me a stack of money and it's not settled as my accountant still has to go through the past three years' of accounting. I'm sure she'll find something. And finally, if the rev dept come at us, her head is on the block again. This is all in a couple of contracts that my lawyer wrote up.

I'm happy with the way it went, though like you, I too would have preferred a bit of time in small cell.

[junkofdavid2]

If you don't let her see jail time at all, that sends a message to your remaining employees that they can steal from you but will never go to jail and at most, will simply have to 'pay back' money. They'll be willing to take that risk in the future because the reward to risk ratio is not bad; and you'll be considered a WEAK enforcer of honesty.

Thanks for this junkofdavid2. I wanted her to see jail time, but my lawyer advised against it.

The police also said that if anything 'odd' or violent happens to me, she's the prime suspect.

I value your opinion, but I think the rest of my crew will take a look at this and realize that there could be consequences. She did lose her high-paying job, she had to pay me a stack of money and it's not settled as my accountant still has to go through the past three years' of accounting. I'm sure she'll find something. And finally, if the rev dept come at us, her head is on the block again. This is all in a couple of contracts that my lawyer wrote up.

I'm happy with the way it went, though like you, I too would have preferred a bit of time in small cell.

Then at least bargain for a (hand) written "apology" (read: confession) from her admitting that she embezzled, which you can pull out in the future if needed.

Edited April 26, 2008 by junkofdavid2

[waza]

Hmmmm Just walk out to her work space and chew her out as loudly as you can, she will not suffer the loss of face and will leave and never return. It works at my Gfs factory every time.

This would be the cheapest way out.

[Galong]

Then at least bargain for a (hand) written "apology" (read: confession) from her admitting that she embezzled, which you can pull out in the future if needed.

Hmm, I think it's a bit too late for that. Her termination paper states the reason and she lost a good bit of face at the police station. The police and various folks in the police station all heard what went down... so to speak. We had a witness sign off the termination paper too and she heard the whole conversation.

Thanks for your helpful suggestions buddy. I kinda wished I'd put some of my plans on this forum so I could get some advice... like yours.

[Galong]

Hmmmm Just walk out to her work space and chew her out as loudly as you can, she will not suffer the loss of face and will leave and never return. It works at my Gfs factory every time.

This would be the cheapest way out.

Tried that before. She said, "sure, give me six months severance pay and I'll leave."

I think that the way it turned out was the cheapest. My accountant recommended a lawyer and he originally asked for 25,000 Baht to deal with her and with a licensing issue I've got with a bus I bought. The day after I agreed to that, the yellow plates arrived for my bus. So, he didn't ask for any money for that. I gave him 10,000 Baht when we first met and he said just give him 5,000 Baht for the employee drama and that's it. In other words, he treated me very fairly and I'm getting money out of 'her', so I'm satisfied.

My only concern is retaliation. My lawyer said not to worry about that. The police told her that if anything happens to me, she's going to be picked up and taken down town.

Thanks for your advice though.

[Dakhar]

So the moral of the storry is.... if the employee has not left a paper trail, they still got you by the bal-ls.

You got lucky.

The flip side of things, I got pushed out of a job in the US because I became too expensive. I was paid via performance incentive plan (a fancy term for commission for doctors) and eventually I was earning over double what most folks in my carrer earns. The employers did not like this and made maneuvers to make sure I left.

I eventually did.... and honestly I have little regret.

[junkofdavid2]

Hmmmm Just walk out to her work space and chew her out as loudly as you can, she will not suffer the loss of face and will leave and never return. It works at my Gfs factory every time.

This would be the cheapest way out.

Tried that before. She said, "sure, give me six months severance pay and I'll leave."

I think that the way it turned out was the cheapest. My accountant recommended a lawyer and he originally asked for 25,000 Baht to deal with her and with a licensing issue I've got with a bus I bought. The day after I agreed to that, the yellow plates arrived for my bus. So, he didn't ask for any money for that. I gave him 10,000 Baht when we first met and he said just give him 5,000 Baht for the employee drama and that's it. In other words, he treated me very fairly and I'm getting money out of 'her', so I'm satisfied.

My only concern is retaliation. My lawyer said not to worry about that. The police told her that if anything happens to me, she's going to be picked up and taken down town.

Thanks for your advice though.

My next advise is not really needed, but something I would ponder doing.

Buy a small 4'x4' advertisement in the newspaper with her photo stating that she is "no longer connected" with your company, etc. and any transaction involving her would not be honored. To avoid lawsuit, don't 'accuse' her of anything in the ad, but the tone and font used should shout "BEWARE". Complete loss of face even to the public.

You're actually being virtuous by doing this because you're forewarning other employers to prevent them from being scammed by her, and you're also preventing customers from being scammed as well.

Edited April 27, 2008 by junkofdavid2

[Galong]

My next advise is not really needed, but something I would ponder doing.

Buy a small 4'x4' advertisement in the newspaper with her photo stating that she is "no longer connected" with your company, etc. and any transaction involving her would not be honored. To avoid lawsuit, don't 'accuse' her of anything in the ad, but the tone and font used should shout "BEWARE". Complete loss of face even to the public.

You're actually being virtuous by doing this because you're forewarning other employers to prevent them from being scammed by her, and you're also preventing customers from being scammed as well.

Yep, I'm already planning on asking my lawyer if I can do this. I don't plan on making it look like she's a thief... as much as I'd like to... just letting everyone know she's no longer employed by my company.

I wasn't thinking of putting a photo of her in the ad. That might be pushing a bit hard as she does have connections.

Thanks again!

[britmaveric]

Be careful - to be honest you got what you wanted, so I would leave it at that. I wouldnt push things too much because you back some one into a corner and they will eventually retaliate and wont do you any good if you are dead. She might go to jail, but you will be dead so I wouldnt say you would be a winner mate.

[Galong]

Be careful - to be honest you got what you wanted, so I would leave it at that. I wouldnt push things too much because you back some one into a corner and they will eventually retaliate and wont do you any good if you are dead. She might go to jail, but you will be dead so I wouldnt say you would be a winner mate.

10/4 Maveric... that's what I'm thinking too. I might do an ad in the Phuket Gazette if my attorney thinks it's a good idea or I might just contact the handful of agents that we deal with an gently let them know that she's no longer in the company.

[stumonster]

I might just contact the handful of agents that we deal with an gently let them know that she's no longer in the company.

This should be imperative - and only if she has been convicted should you tell them that she stole , else just say you were not happy with her performance.

Edited April 27, 2008 by stumonster

[junkofdavid2]

I might just contact the handful of agents that we deal with an gently let them know that she's no longer in the company.

This should be imperative - and only if she has been convicted should you tell them that she stole , else just say you were not happy with her performance.

Or if you wana imply that she stole while still 'not saying' she stole, say unexplainable money is missing, 55,000+, which she was managing personally and which she is accountable for.

Edited April 28, 2008 by junkofdavid2

[Galong]

Thanks guys, I'm thinking that the best approach is to do as much of this as possible over the phone... no paper trail to come back and bite me in the booty.