Nightlife Business

[Jingthing]

Ok, don't laugh (well, laugh if you want to).

I had a brainstorm about a better way to run a nightlife business in Pattaya. I think it is such a good idea I might put money in it, but I just want to own it and direct it, not work in it, not get a work permit, or give up my retirement visa.

Is this possible? Legal? The done thing? Or if not, any similar alternatives.

My concept would be to have a trusted Thai actually run it and carry out my my concept. It would also be ideal if I could attend the business, but not actually work there (meet and greet a bit and watch out). Are there any structures that would facilitate this?

Edited November 15, 2007 by Jingthing

[TonyLeung]

Ok, don't laugh (well, laugh if you want to).

I had a brainstorm about a better way to run a nightlife business in Pattaya. I think it is such a good idea I might put money in it, but I just want to own it and direct it, not work in it, not get a work permit, or give up my retirement visa.

Is this possible? Legal? The done thing? Or if not, any similar alternatives.

My concept would be to have a trusted Thai actually run it and carry out my my concept. It would also be ideal if I could attend the business, but not actually work there (meet and greet a bit and watch out). Are there any structures that would facilitate this?

come one dude, if you are directing, you are working and obviously need a visa.

[meom]

Are there any structures that would facilitate this?

Marriage

Put everything in name of the wife and let her "run" it. I think a lot of expat bar owners operate in this way. They sit as "customer" in their bar, say hello to guests, give away drinks etc.

[ThaidleHands]

Are there any structures that would facilitate this?

Marriage

Put everything in name of the wife and let her "run" it. I think a lot of expat bar owners operate in this way. They sit as "customer" in their bar, say hello to guests, give away drinks etc.

Indeed they do and they are breaking the law and at risk of arrest. And if their sad little bar ever starts to take custom away from the neighbors they're more than glad to shop him to the police. And good on them.

Go Legal or Go Home.

[JimsKnight]

Indeed. These same 'wifes name' wide boys often have to walk on eggshells to placate their wives or risk loosing the whole bar and their livelihood. Seen it happen more than once where the farang's have been booted out onto the street!

They've also got to live with the potential spectre of immigration looming over them.

Edited November 15, 2007 by JimsKnight

[meom]

Don't see them really breaking any laws as long as they don't serve drinks, operate the cash register etc.

As a "customer" mingling with other customers, ringing the bell etc. is a bit of a grey area I guess which is the reason why it's condoned.

[N47HAN]

Ok, don't laugh (well, laugh if you want to).

I had a brainstorm about a better way to run a nightlife business in Pattaya. I think it is such a good idea I might put money in it, but I just want to own it and direct it, not work in it, not get a work permit, or give up my retirement visa.

Is this possible? Legal? The done thing? Or if not, any similar alternatives.

My concept would be to have a trusted Thai actually run it and carry out my my concept. It would also be ideal if I could attend the business, but not actually work there (meet and greet a bit and watch out). Are there any structures that would facilitate this?

( well you did say we could )

this brainstorm didnt occur over a beer did it

[Khun Jean]

Ah yes, great idea.

Not only the risk of getting booted out of the business once it starts to get successfull, but also the added bonus of being kicked out of the country and put on a black list.

If you are serious about this and it has good potential why not start a real business and get active.

You can always fall back on the retirement visa if it is not working as planned. Just keep 800.000 baht on a seperate acount just in case.

I see many 'oppertunities' when i walked past shops. The 'urge' to improve it will subside once you have been around long enough. No reason to get into business when you are bored or see potential.

The real problem in this country will always be ownership, and protecting your assets when indulging in nightlife businesses.

For some real improvement just copy a nightclub from Las Vegas to this place where many tourists are and you have instant success. (for a while).

[Jingthing]

Well, any abusive comments are not justified but more than expected. I asked an honest question. I really didn't know and not sure I know now. I am not into skirting the law but Thai law is confusing and I was under the impression that you could own but not work. Now if telling someone you trust what your idea is and how it should be implemented is "working" well then I see the point. OK, so the legal way, does that still entail starting a 2 million baht company and do you really need to import the entire 2 million baht? Marriage to a Thai or a non-Thai is not an option for me.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Jingthing

[monty]

If you're on your own (no wife) than the Co.,Ltd. is pretty much the only option.

But you'll pretty soon experience the fact that the Thai government (especially immigration) is not interested in small business owners.

Starting the company, starting your business and getting your work permit (as managing director of your company) is not that hard, nor is it very expensive.

Theoretically 25% of the 2 million capital has to be paid in within 90 days of incorporating, but this is in no way enforced nor checked (anyway, the fine is only 1000 Baht).

The remaining 75% paid up capital can be knowledge, IP property, equipment, inventory.

Before you can get a work permit you'll probably have to convert your non-immi class O retirement visa to a type B (cost 2000 Baht at immigration and you'll need company papers etc...). Not sure what they'll do with your current extension you have. Maybe they even tell you to go get a non-immi class B somewhere abroad...

Apply for work permit. Work permit will be valid till the same day your are allowed to remain in Thailand.

You can not get a 1 year extension based on your work permit straight away, you'll first need 4 registered and taxpaying employees, and you'll need audited bookkeeping telling immigration that in the last accounting year the gross revenue of your company is at least of the same amount as a full years worth of your salary (12 times 60,000 Baht equaling 720,000 Baht, assuming you are European).

Bugger, didn't you just start your company? So that audited bookkeeping thing spanning 1 year of operations will be out of reach for a long while (and maybe the 720,000 Baht revenue as well )!

So no extension, meaning every 90 days a border run, followed by re-validating your work permit...That is if yo have a multiple entry non immi class B. If a single entry you'll need to visit a consulate or embassy to get a new visa each time! And be back quick enough to re-validate your work permit, since (I think) you only have 7 days to do this, or you loose the work permit altogether and have to re-apply!

Until your employer (=your company) can meet the financial requirements needed for your 1 year extension. And even then it's not easy, the 4 employees need to be photographed, immigration will come unannounced and check they are actually working at your place (and you are not just paying taxes on nominee employees), and that their faces match the pictures of them you submitted at your application for extension....

Welcome to the country of red tape!

[soundman]

If you're on your own (no wife) than the Co.,Ltd. is pretty much the only option.

But you'll pretty soon experience the fact that the Thai government (especially immigration) is not interested in small business owners.

Starting the company, starting your business and getting your work permit (as managing director of your company) is not that hard, nor is it very expensive.

Theoretically 25% of the 2 million capital has to be paid in within 90 days of incorporating, but this is in no way enforced nor checked (anyway, the fine is only 1000 Baht).

The remaining 75% paid up capital can be knowledge, IP property, equipment, inventory.

Before you can get a work permit you'll probably have to convert your non-immi class O retirement visa to a type B (cost 2000 Baht at immigration and you'll need company papers etc...). Not sure what they'll do with your current extension you have. Maybe they even tell you to go get a non-immi class B somewhere abroad...

Apply for work permit. Work permit will be valid till the same day your are allowed to remain in Thailand.

You can not get a 1 year extension based on your work permit straight away, you'll first need 4 registered and taxpaying employees, and you'll need audited bookkeeping telling immigration that in the last accounting year the gross revenue of your company is at least of the same amount as a full years worth of your salary (12 times 60,000 Baht equaling 720,000 Baht, assuming you are European).

Bugger, didn't you just start your company? So that audited bookkeeping thing spanning 1 year of operations will be out of reach for a long while (and maybe the 720,000 Baht revenue as well )!

So no extension, meaning every 90 days a border run, followed by re-validating your work permit...That is if yo have a multiple entry non immi class B. If a single entry you'll need to visit a consulate or embassy to get a new visa each time! And be back quick enough to re-validate your work permit, since (I think) you only have 7 days to do this, or you loose the work permit altogether and have to re-apply!

Until your employer (=your company) can meet the financial requirements needed for your 1 year extension. And even then it's not easy, the 4 employees need to be photographed, immigration will come unannounced and check they are actually working at your place (and you are not just paying taxes on nominee employees), and that their faces match the pictures of them you submitted at your application for extension....

Welcome to the country of red tape!

And that is just the tip of the iceberg!

[Edonista]

Running a business in Thailand is a luxury only really wealthy people can afford.

Better you keep wasting your time posting on Thaivisa, Jingthing, running a go-go would quickly worsen your blood pressure, and not because of the naked girls around

[Jingthing]

Welcome to the country of red tape!

I am adequately dissuaded. It really WAS a good idea.

[blizzard]

if yr idea doesnt include selling girls , forget it.............lol.

so wots yr idea?

[asiaworld]

All this strange replies, either project ignorance, or enforce the proof of Thailand being deep in the stoneage(bureaucracy wise!) .. There's nothing wrong with OP's idea, had it occured Anywhere else on the planet!> I did & there are plenty of provisions in EU,west/east all over which facilitate residency & business ownership for company's shareholder/sole proprietor/director EMPLOYING the local workforce/management etc.. If a foreigner opens shop in EU for example, they will have an option of either going for WP, or declaring employment of locals & becoming WP exempt owner!(did it myself many years ago)..All fully legit, including your right to passively attend to your business for as long as you like(like sitting in your shop daily).. So is there something seriously wrong with thai biz legislation, or what ?!?

[Manchester]

All this strange replies, either project ignorance, or enforce the proof of Thailand being deep in the stoneage(bureaucracy wise!) .. There's nothing wrong with OP's idea, had it occured Anywhere else on the planet!> I did & there are plenty of provisions in EU,west/east all over which facilitate residency & business ownership for company's shareholder/sole proprietor/director EMPLOYING the local workforce/management etc.. If a foreigner opens shop in EU for example, they will have an option of either going for WP, or declaring employment of locals & becoming WP exempt owner!(did it myself many years ago)..All fully legit, including your right to passively attend to your business for as long as you like(like sitting in your shop daily).. So is there something seriously wrong with thai biz legislation, or what ?!?

All countries have the right to decide on their administration and policies. Not much point complaining really.

[johnnyk]

All this strange replies, either project ignorance, or enforce the proof of Thailand being deep in the stoneage(bureaucracy wise!) .. There's nothing wrong with OP's idea, had it occured Anywhere else on the planet!> I did & there are plenty of provisions in EU,west/east all over which facilitate residency & business ownership for company's shareholder/sole proprietor/director EMPLOYING the local workforce/management etc.. If a foreigner opens shop in EU for example, they will have an option of either going for WP, or declaring employment of locals & becoming WP exempt owner!(did it myself many years ago)..All fully legit, including your right to passively attend to your business for as long as you like(like sitting in your shop daily).. So is there something seriously wrong with thai biz legislation, or what ?!?

Wrong from your point of view but not from theirs.

Your point of view is irrelevant to them.

[blizzard]

am i missin something.

wots his idea?

like sheldon adelson says theres always a better way to do things. if you can you becum wealthy if you cant then you go bankrupt like the rest of the farang bar owners........lol.

Edited November 19, 2007 by blizzard

[VocalNeal]

All this strange replies, either project ignorance, or enforce the proof of Thailand being deep in the stoneage(bureaucracy wise!) .. There's nothing wrong with OP's idea, had it occured Anywhere else on the planet!> I did & there are plenty of provisions in EU,west/east all over which facilitate residency & business ownership for company's shareholder/sole proprietor/director EMPLOYING the local workforce/management etc.. If a foreigner opens shop in EU for example, they will have an option of either going for WP, or declaring employment of locals & becoming WP exempt owner!(did it myself many years ago)..All fully legit, including your right to passively attend to your business for as long as you like(like sitting in your shop daily).. So is there something seriously wrong with thai biz legislation, or what ?!?

All countries have the right to decide on their administration and policies. Not much point complaining really.

<deleted> brilliant. I think with this you have just answered 90% of posts on this forum.

[Manchester]

All this strange replies, either project ignorance, or enforce the proof of Thailand being deep in the stoneage(bureaucracy wise!) .. There's nothing wrong with OP's idea, had it occured Anywhere else on the planet!> I did & there are plenty of provisions in EU,west/east all over which facilitate residency & business ownership for company's shareholder/sole proprietor/director EMPLOYING the local workforce/management etc.. If a foreigner opens shop in EU for example, they will have an option of either going for WP, or declaring employment of locals & becoming WP exempt owner!(did it myself many years ago)..All fully legit, including your right to passively attend to your business for as long as you like(like sitting in your shop daily).. So is there something seriously wrong with thai biz legislation, or what ?!?

All countries have the right to decide on their administration and policies. Not much point complaining really.

<deleted> brilliant. I think with this you have just answered 90% of posts on this forum.

I am truly gifted.

[Cuban]

I asked an honest question. I really didn't know and not sure I know now. I am not into skirting the law but Thai law is confusing and I was under the impression that you could own but not work...

...I think you got a few honest answers. When you say you thought you could "own" but not work; what EXACTLY would you own? The structure of the bar? (Yes this is possible but the chances of you doing so are so remote it's a waste of bandwidth to discuss it.) The fixtures and fittings, again you could buy them at Tesco or Somchai's Bar Supply WhroeHouse (oppps typo!) but you could not install as much as a single speaker bracket (legally) without a WP. The drinks or glasses? The list goes on...

Many farangs fund such bars via their wives with whatever trade experiance they have combined and monitor what happens each night from the safety of a bar stool with the all important little wooden check bin pot in front of them, that way if a surprise visit from the Labour Office or Immigration should happen, the fact that you have a bill to pay means you are the same as any other customer.

However, if you should be seen pouring someone's drink from behind the bar, or fixing the CD player, then you are working and need to be covered by a WP.

I would also suggest that the wording of the WP should be such that it encompasses everything that you are likely to do at work, if it's too tight it might limit your ability to cover all aspects of your business.

[Jingthing]

The answer to the question: what would I own?

The lease to the space

The business name.

The business concept and the first to do it (with absolutely no protection from copiers)

The fixtures

The assets

Am I clear now that this is really impossible to own but not work/permit in Thailand?

And no of course I am not going to reveal the idea here. If I didn't think it was a great idea, I wouldn't have asked. I do think if there is this restriction, Thailand is only hurting itself, putting too many restrictions on a free market that would indeed bring money into Thailand.

Edited November 19, 2007 by Jingthing

[Manchester]

Thailand is only hurting itself, putting too many restrictions on a free market that would indeed bring money into Thailand.

I didn,t know that.

[ThaidleHands]

The answer to the question: what would I own?

The lease to the space

The business name.

The business concept and the first to do it (with absolutely no protection from copiers)

The fixtures

The assets

Am I clear now that this is really impossible to own but not work/permit in Thailand?

And no of course I am not going to reveal the idea here. If I didn't think it was a great idea, I wouldn't have asked. I do think if there is this restriction, Thailand is only hurting itself, putting too many restrictions on a free market that would indeed bring money into Thailand.

If you sign a commercial lease in your company name and you don't hold a work permit, the lease can be ruled null and void.

More to the point, how would you instruct your staff? Every time you needed to give orders, hop on a bus to Poipet and send a fax? Simply being on the premises could be construed as acting in a supervisory capacity.

[Cuban]

Thailand is only hurting itself, putting too many restrictions on a free market that would indeed bring money into Thailand.

There is more to the running of business in Thailand then you see. The Thai way is not the same as farang perceive businesses "should" be run, this is why so many farangs fail here. To be successful you need a wised up Thai along side you with the same ideas and objectives. Frankly SO many bar type businesses fail because the farang backer does not control the business and looses his shirt through expense leakage. Can an average Thai choosen at random off the street run a business? If the choosen business "owner" is a rural Thai women and the people she is having to deal with as landlords and suppliers of goods and services are Thai men from the Thai merchant classes, she will be on the back foot from day one, she will not get the best price in contract dealings.

Great ideas are rare, great ideas that have a realistic business model supporting them are even rarer. If you have done the numbers based on realistic figures of bums on seats spending X baht per hour per person AND you know what your costs are for staff, services and losses; you might be able to see the big picture.

If your great idea needs start up capital (self-funding I assume), what is the pay-back period? As you already know, if you have a good idea that makes money you wil be copied and the Thai business will undercut you even by providing a lesser service/product, also copying your signage and website ideas. If it takes you three months to recover setup costs you might be looking at cutting your prices to beat competition before you have finished one season at your projected budgeted rates. If the idea is such a good one, a well funded Thai could run you down by undercutting then take over your location etc ready for next season.

Bottom line, if the idea is a good one could you employ at least four Thai staff full time?

Could you pay yourself a good salary, at least 50k Baht on paper but a lot more in real life?

If so create a company and get a WP. You will save yourself a lot of hassle in the long run.

Final thought: If your business idea relies on people passing your location, then your rent will not be cheap, have you looked at a venue and know their current costs?

[torrenova]

You have a retirement visa whereas some others under 50 do not and as such, they have other visa costs if they did not have work permits. As you have no partner, even pretending that she was the power behind the throne is not possible.

On the WP issue, I see you have read Monty's prose which I will attest to. And the rules keep changing. However, it is a moot point whether you could actually get a WP as a bar host. A manager or director yes but whether you need to be anything other than an owner is not clear.

I mean, if you own a car wash and someone brings you the takings each day, then you don't actually do any work. They could argue that you do work but you don't really. Even so, you would be safer off with the WP.

Reverse engineer the idea you have to see whether, for the work you are prepared to put in, you can generate sufficient income to pay the bills after allowing for your risk premium.

[thai_narak]

one word, TRUST. would you really trust someone to handle your business? i won't.

establish a company and get a work permit.

[Cyberstar]

The answer to the question: what would I own?

The lease to the space

The business name.

The business concept and the first to do it (with absolutely no protection from copiers)

The fixtures

The assets

Am I clear now that this is really impossible to own but not work/permit in Thailand?

You can own shares of a company than owns the stuff and you can receive dividends without a WP. That's what Sunbelt writes herein:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...st&p=932442

Okay, so you are a shareholder and shareholders are supposed to go to shareholder meetings, right? Now, one may wonder: Do you need a WP to participate in shareholder meetings? Shareholder meeting certainly can take place on the company's own business premises. Any law against having shareholder meetings on a daily basis? (Any law against a company paying dividends on a daily basis, for that matter)?

[Edonista]

So is there something seriously wrong with thai biz legislation, or what ?!?

There is something seriously wrong with Thai biz legislation.

And also with the visa and real estate ownership ones

[Edonista]

one word, TRUST. would you really trust someone to handle your business? i won't.

establish a company and get a work permit.

Estabilishing a company means you have to trust the Thai partner for the 51% you have to put in his name yet you have to pay for. I don't see how this could solve the "trust" issue.