Male/female - East Vs West

[sylviex]

the key question I look to have answered is whether it or not it is appropriate to coerce/convince/persuade the people of the East to accept the Western model.

There is no evidence that such coercion/convincing/persuasion is taking place.

There is plenty of evidence (here in this thread) of western men expecting Asian women to conform to some "Asian ideal" which in truth is actually something that is dreamed up by western men who have little or no real understanding of what "Asian Values and Customs" are.

Yes, I would like to ask what these Eastern and Western roles are supposed to be ?

Anyway, I think choices come to people with education and the independence - financial and other - it brings.

Many men in countries like Australia are now greatly enjoying the chances that greater role flexibility bring for both women and men - many are relishing the opportunity to stay home, part-time or full-time, and take care of their children, and live in other ways than the rigid old 9 to 5 permitted. Their partners are delighted not to be restricted, too, and often flourish in the work-place or small businesses. Having a balance of men and women in business, education, politics etc. is desirable, I think. The ability to "e-commute" has helped open up possibilities even more.

Why would people want less flexibility ? I can only guess it threatens them. Worse, some - like the ugly person described here who orders his Thai wife about like a slave - are perhaps acting out some sick inferiority complex. I hope that case is extreme, but I do also see milder versions of it around here rather more than I'd wish to. I guess previously powerless people can become "powerful" here.

As one poster said, think of what you would want for your daughter ? and what kind of partner & what kind of choices would you want for your son ? And what kind of parents for your grandchildren ?

Edited November 18, 2007 by sylviex

[kat]

the key question I look to have answered is whether it or not it is appropriate to coerce/convince/persuade the people of the East to accept the Western model.

There is no evidence that such coercion/convincing/persuasion is taking place.

There is plenty of evidence (here in this thread) of western men expecting Asian women to conform to some “Asian ideal” which in truth is actually something that is dreamed up by western men who have little or no real understanding of what “Asian Values and Customs” are.

Then you must lead a somewhat sheltered life and/or have minimal contact with Western women who visit Asia for the first time and listen to their views on what's right and wrong here. The things that spawned my original post (amongst other things) was having just had two female house guests visit Thailand for the first time, one from Aus and one from the US and both very feminist in their outlook. Between the two of them I have endured two weeks of near non stop rantings about how women in Thailand would never possibly be treated and regarded the same way "back home" and how things here have to change.

Then why did you scapegoat female posters and comments that they supposedly made when you were thinking of someone else? Could it be because this thread is a knee-jerk reaction to female threads that discuss exercising their full range of choice, which you somehow believe threatens your own? I think so.

[dominique355]

The question I posed initially was not a Troll and is a serious one although perhaps if I reword it, it might help some folks.

The relationship (and roles) between men and women in the West is more equal than it is in the East. In the West that equality is protected by law on a whole range of Equal Rights and Anti-Discrimination Legislation. The effect of that equalisation process over the past 100 years has caused the relative roles of men and women, and their attitudes towards each other, to change. In the East such legislation does not for the most part exist and the relationship (and roles) between men and women, and their attitudes towards each other are very different from those in the West.

I am not so sure like Chiang Mai that in the Asian, or more particularly in the Thai society the relationship between men and women is so much less equal than in Western societies (whatever "Western" is supposed to mean). To the untrained eye it comes as a surprise how many business leaders and CEOs in Thailand are women. I would venture to say more than in the West (or at least, the "West" as I know it (Switzerland)). Examples: IBM (Thailand), BOT ...

But also in rural communities, where most seem to deplore an inequality of the sexes, often the wife takes care of the house and land (the most valuable piece of property they have) and the finances. While the husband sits with his colleagues in the restaurants and drinks beer and Lipo, she is actually working and keeping the family together. To the outsider, this looks like he is the Man and she is the servant. But don't forget, he goes only as far as the pocket money he gets from her. So actually, he is on the leash.

[lannarebirth]

I'm not sure Eastern male'fe,ale relationships should change to more reflect western male/female relationship values. Unless by adopting western values you mean they'd stop beating and raping their wives with no legal ramifications. That maybe adultery coould be cause for divorce, and that child support must be payed and police would enforce such payment.

I understand that a lot of men got caught in the switches of the whole male/female equality change in the west. It wasn't the easiest of transitions and I'm sure it's not over yet. Some would say the western women became men and why would you want a man? I think it will take a generation or two to seek a level where both genders can be comfortable with each other. That said, nothing at all wrong with the laws and it's the behavior that's slower to change. It will work the same way here, but it's coming all the same.

And if it's a process of natural evolution that's a good thing in my book. I risk this thread running off track if I try to make the analogy with the Western view that democracy is good for everyone in all countries so you will change now attitude - it isn't good for everyone everywhere and trying to force a change doesn't work..

Don't mistake what is ideal for what is good. Imbalances of power, whether it be in governments or human relationships have always led to abuse of that power.

It's a process. "Cultural Evolution" if you like. If it's a good thing, that which works for the good of society will remain, You know, the eradicatio of child labor in the west wasn't "natural evolution". It was wrong and it was changed and I think we'd all agree society benefitted from that change. I think you need to take a longer term view and not just focus on your own relationships.

I have to ask. If you allowed your eastern wife to have a child, and it was female, would you be happy to have her grow up and live as an adult woman in this society that so narrowly defines what she may become?

Edited November 18, 2007 by lannarebirth

[chiang mai]

the key question I look to have answered is whether it or not it is appropriate to coerce/convince/persuade the people of the East to accept the Western model.

There is no evidence that such coercion/convincing/persuasion is taking place.

There is plenty of evidence (here in this thread) of western men expecting Asian women to conform to some “Asian ideal” which in truth is actually something that is dreamed up by western men who have little or no real understanding of what “Asian Values and Customs” are.

Then you must lead a somewhat sheltered life and/or have minimal contact with Western women who visit Asia for the first time and listen to their views on what's right and wrong here. The things that spawned my original post (amongst other things) was having just had two female house guests visit Thailand for the first time, one from Aus and one from the US and both very feminist in their outlook. Between the two of them I have endured two weeks of near non stop rantings about how women in Thailand would never possibly be treated and regarded the same way "back home" and how things here have to change.

Then why did you scapegoat female posters and comments that they supposedly made when you were thinking of someone else? Could it be because this thread is a knee-jerk reaction to female threads that discuss exercising their full range of choice, which you somehow believe threatens your own? I think so.

I don't understand what you mean or are referring to when you say "scapegoat female posters".

As for feeling threatened: this is not a personal or emotive topic for me, mostly it's passing curiosity and the thought that others may have a view in which case I would consider them and perhaps close down another topic in my mind, one that occupies less than 0.00001% of my thought time. More than anything else it's an intellectual and academic debate that is quite complex and those not up for the task should subscribe to the "I was ripped off by a taxi thread".

[chiang mai]

I'm not sure Eastern male'fe,ale relationships should change to more reflect western male/female relationship values. Unless by adopting western values you mean they'd stop beating and raping their wives with no legal ramifications. That maybe adultery coould be cause for divorce, and that child support must be payed and police would enforce such payment.

I understand that a lot of men got caught in the switches of the whole male/female equality change in the west. It wasn't the easiest of transitions and I'm sure it's not over yet. Some would say the western women became men and why would you want a man? I think it will take a generation or two to seek a level where both genders can be comfortable with each other. That said, nothing at all wrong with the laws and it's the behavior that's slower to change. It will work the same way here, but it's coming all the same.

And if it's a process of natural evolution that's a good thing in my book. I risk this thread running off track if I try to make the analogy with the Western view that democracy is good for everyone in all countries so you will change now attitude - it isn't good for everyone everywhere and trying to force a change doesn't work..

Don't mistake what is ideal for what is good. Imbalances of power, whether it be in governments or human relationships have always led to abuse of that power.

It's a process. "Cultural Evolution" if you like. If it's a good thing, that which works for the good of society will remain, You know, the eradicatio of child labor in the west wasn't "natural evolution". It was wrong and it was changed and I think we'd all agree society benefitted from that change. I think you need to take a longer term view and not just focus on your own relationships.

I have to ask. If you allowed your eastern wife to have a child, and it was female, would you be happy to have her grow up and live as an adult woman in this society that so narrowly defines what she may become?

I like your opening statements and it rings very true.

As for your question, hmm, not easy. I think there is another element to the roles and relationship part and that is intelligence and knowledge. I like to think that if I had a daughter and she was to be raised here in Thailand she would be successful regardless of the male/female culture that prevailed at the time. As previous OP's have pointed out there are successful business women in Thailand and whilst the task of becoming one is not easy, it is not impossible.

[sbk]

I don't understand what you mean or are referring to when you say "scapegoat female posters".

I’ve followed a number of threads of late discussing male/female relations in Thailand and note with much interest the extent to which western female commentators seem to promote shades of the Western liberalised views of the feminist movement. Men and women are equal in every respect, the male is bad because he not (allegedly) as monogamous as the female and, most importantly, the female in the East should be regarded the same way as the female in the West, are all sound bites and more I detect.

My personal view is that this is all nonsense and that the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities and that Eastern culture is hugely different from Western culture and long may that survive – attempting to upset the order of those things is unhelpful and potentially dangerous, at a minimum it is annoying. My sense is that far too many Western female commentators on the topic of male/female equality are pursuing a “one size fits all” model around the globe and are actually quite insecure with the different model they see here in Thailand and other parts of Asia and The Far East.

Ladies, Gentlemen, should Asian females be treated and regarded here the same way as they are in the West or does that model not work here – I say it does not but you may have a different view.

I see nowhere that you mentioned the commentators were women in your own home but I see several instances where you mention the commentators are women in threads on this forum. Seems like scapegoating to me too.

[kat]

The question I posed initially was not a Troll and is a serious one although perhaps if I reword it, it might help some folks.

The relationship (and roles) between men and women in the West is more equal than it is in the East. In the West that equality is protected by law on a whole range of Equal Rights and Anti-Discrimination Legislation. The effect of that equalisation process over the past 100 years has caused the relative roles of men and women, and their attitudes towards each other, to change. In the East such legislation does not for the most part exist and the relationship (and roles) between men and women, and their attitudes towards each other are very different from those in the West.

I am not so sure like Chiang Mai that in the Asian, or more particularly in the Thai society the relationship between men and women is so much less equal than in Western societies (whatever "Western" is supposed to mean). To the untrained eye it comes as a surprise how many business leaders and CEOs in Thailand are women. I would venture to say more than in the West (or at least, the "West" as I know it (Switzerland)). Examples: IBM (Thailand), BOT ...

But also in rural communities, where most seem to deplore an inequality of the sexes, often the wife takes care of the house and land (the most valuable piece of property they have) and the finances. While the husband sits with his colleagues in the restaurants and drinks beer and Lipo, she is actually working and keeping the family together. To the outsider, this looks like he is the Man and she is the servant. But don't forget, he goes only as far as the pocket money he gets from her. So actually, he is on the leash.

Fair points int this case, Dominique, but you'll find that in Asia, most of the high-powered women - and men for that matter - inherit the post through nepotism or familial ties. So, even the few examples here are not really parallel to the West.

[hammered]

I think it is goinga bit far to assume that there is standard of male-female relationship throughout the west. First of all what is the west? Within the west there are cultures that are as traditionalist as any in the east. the west is not just a single place of a single religion occupied by well eductaed white middle class Christian or secular men and women. In the east the societies may be somewhat more ethnically homogenous but also cover a diversity of religions and and maybe an even bigger divide between urban and rural dwellers than exists in the west.

The main difference between east and west comes in terms of education, opportunity and wealth for most. Both men and women in the west have in general far more of all of these. In the east most have a lot less access to education, opportunity and wealth. These things are far more likley to impact a persons life and choice than any piece of legislation and we shouldnt forget that in Thailand all people are considered formally equal in th eyes of the current (and previous) constitution. How in the future the relationship between the sexes develops is going to be determined by the people being born and raised in he country who may choose to look outside for inspiration, or who may choose to create their own way of achieving/adjusting their own balance, or more likely using a combo of both. However, I would argue that how this develops will be strongly linked to the factors mentioned before. If poor women have greater access to better education, opportunity and wealth I doubt they will be selling themselves as sex slaves, or becming maids. If such were to occur I wonder if the class of western man currently found here seeking solace in this option will have developed too and will be able to live with the new balance or will be off in search of a new group of sex slaves or persoanal carers of a slightly different colour or appearance in a poorer place with less opportunites available for poor women.

Peace.

[TonyLeung]

the key question I look to have answered is whether it or not it is appropriate to coerce/convince/persuade the people of the East to accept the Western model.

There is no evidence that such coercion/convincing/persuasion is taking place.

There is plenty of evidence (here in this thread) of western men expecting Asian women to conform to some "Asian ideal" which in truth is actually something that is dreamed up by western men who have little or no real understanding of what "Asian Values and Customs" are.

You hit the nail on the head.

Many men prefer that their wife stays at home, cooks and cleans. There is nothing wrong with that. They point out that she does it willingly and that is what makes her happy. That great, but I would much rather my daughter has higher aims than staying home and cooking and cleaning, even if that is what her mother chooses to do.

Most men don't want to stay home and cook and clean, not because its women's work, but because its unfulfilling.

Take a look at the birth rates in Japan and Singapore. There is a birth crisis among those Asian women who have become "feminized" or "westernized". In reality, I think they have more economic choices and have decided not to limit themselves to home making. It also means that men need other means besides money (looks and personality) to court them (or they need more money than she has) which obviously makes certain men angry.

[siamamerican]

I’ve followed a number of threads of late discussing male/female relations in Thailand and note with much interest the extent to which western female commentators seem to promote shades of the Western liberalised views of the feminist movement. Men and women are equal in every respect, the male is bad because he not (allegedly) as monogamous as the female and, most importantly, the female in the East should be regarded the same way as the female in the West, are all sound bites and more I detect.

My personal view is that this is all nonsense and that the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities and that Eastern culture is hugely different from Western culture and long may that survive – attempting to upset the order of those things is unhelpful and potentially dangerous, at a minimum it is annoying. My sense is that far too many Western female commentators on the topic of male/female equality are pursuing a “one size fits all” model around the globe and are actually quite insecure with the different model they see here in Thailand and other parts of Asia and The Far East.

Ladies, Gentlemen, should Asian females be treated and regarded here the same way as they are in the West or does that model not work here – I say it does not but you may have a different view.

I agree with the last paragraph. The prior two are lacking substance.

The majority of female posters comprehend that men and women aren't equal in every respect as you stated. They do view themselves, and justifiably so, as equals. They have issues with women being treated as property and the lack of respect some Farangs have for Thai women.

You find it annoying when women attempt to upset the order of things. Women with opinions are dangerous? Now that would make a boring and meaningless relationship. For a weak man, I assume, a strong woman can be intimidating.

Thai women are different than western women - duh. Regardless, Thais shouldn't be restricted to clearly defined roles. Shouldn't they be allowed to determine their own destiny? This isn't dangerous, just human nature.

The last paragraph make some sense. I treat Thai women a little differently than the women back home. Most lack the education and have different interests than the women back home. In the end, I find Thai women beautiful in many ways and hope as time passes and things change, I feel the same.

[xyborg]

<br />girls who grew up on farms are not the same as girls who grew up in the city and have a post secondary education. most of the farang in Thailand end up with the farm girls (for better or worse i am not judging). the girls who grew up in the city, went to university and can provide for themselves are more likely to resemble Western women and to have higher standards in their choice of a partner than the girls who grew up on a farm. <br /><br />the major difference, IMO is not cultural, but financial.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Jeeeeeeeeeez and some grew up on the farms and when their parent (note single parent) told them they did not have enough money for their further education they came to Bangkok aged 14 worked hard and studied in the evenings to get their university degree to get a better future for themselves. People are all different ... you know??

[xyborg]

<br />where would middle aged men with average salaries be without impoverished 3rd world women?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Maybe they actually get along well together!!

[xyborg]

<br />

When these old white guys start having kids with young Thai girls then that is all wrong.

<br /><br />why?<br />

<br /><br /><br />Amongst other reasons that i wont mention here, older fathers are far more likely to have children with schizophrenia, Men aged 45 to 49 are twice as likely to have children with schizophrenia as men under the age of 25 who became fathers, while the risk triples for men over the age of 50.<br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Im in two minds about this one hahhahahha however you have not quantified what the risks are???? 1 baby per 1000 per 100000 per 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000?? I know a few older men who have had kids when they are 50+. One is an Italian ear nose and throat surgeon his wife is 15 years younger.

[blizzard]

i like a woman one cantrust. unlike the one who says she will not bother with this thread then bothers with it.

are thi omen trustworty?

[xyborg]

<br />

<br />

When these old white guys start having kids with young Thai girls then that is all wrong.

<br /><br />why?<br />

<br /><br /><br />Amongst other reasons that i wont mention here, older fathers are far more likely to have children with schizophrenia, Men aged 45 to 49 are twice as likely to have children with schizophrenia as men under the age of 25 who became fathers, while the risk triples for men over the age of 50.<br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Im in two minds about this one hahhahahha however you have not quantified what the risks are???? 1 baby per 1000 per 100000 per 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000?? I know a few older men who have had kids when they are 50+. One is an Italian ear nose and throat surgeon his wife is 15 years younger.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

I see one survey says 1in 47 hmmmmmmm I'll take the risk thanks.

[chiang mai]

I don't understand what you mean or are referring to when you say "scapegoat female posters".

I’ve followed a number of threads of late discussing male/female relations in Thailand and note with much interest the extent to which western female commentators seem to promote shades of the Western liberalised views of the feminist movement. Men and women are equal in every respect, the male is bad because he not (allegedly) as monogamous as the female and, most importantly, the female in the East should be regarded the same way as the female in the West, are all sound bites and more I detect.

My personal view is that this is all nonsense and that the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities and that Eastern culture is hugely different from Western culture and long may that survive – attempting to upset the order of those things is unhelpful and potentially dangerous, at a minimum it is annoying. My sense is that far too many Western female commentators on the topic of male/female equality are pursuing a “one size fits all” model around the globe and are actually quite insecure with the different model they see here in Thailand and other parts of Asia and The Far East.

Ladies, Gentlemen, should Asian females be treated and regarded here the same way as they are in the West or does that model not work here – I say it does not but you may have a different view.

I see nowhere that you mentioned the commentators were women in your own home but I see several instances where you mention the commentators are women in threads on this forum. Seems like scapegoating to me too.

I'm still having difficulty understanding what it meant by the term "scapegoat" in this context. I listen with interest to commentary and views from both sexes from many nations - in my posts I have simply said that the source of the subject commentary was female, after all, would it not make sense that females would be the most likely to put forward the feminist view. Nothing untoward, hidden or pointed about any of that. Remember, this is not a personal issue for me as an individual so please don't try to pursue a track that suggests it might me since that doesn't really help the debate.

[chiang mai]

I’ve followed a number of threads of late discussing male/female relations in Thailand and note with much interest the extent to which western female commentators seem to promote shades of the Western liberalised views of the feminist movement. Men and women are equal in every respect, the male is bad because he not (allegedly) as monogamous as the female and, most importantly, the female in the East should be regarded the same way as the female in the West, are all sound bites and more I detect.

My personal view is that this is all nonsense and that the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities and that Eastern culture is hugely different from Western culture and long may that survive – attempting to upset the order of those things is unhelpful and potentially dangerous, at a minimum it is annoying. My sense is that far too many Western female commentators on the topic of male/female equality are pursuing a “one size fits all” model around the globe and are actually quite insecure with the different model they see here in Thailand and other parts of Asia and The Far East.

Ladies, Gentlemen, should Asian females be treated and regarded here the same way as they are in the West or does that model not work here – I say it does not but you may have a different view.

I won't bother to comment or get involved in what will be a useless 'discussion'. The subject is way too sensitive for most people to handle with even a shred of objectivity.

I will however say that you have some very valid points imho.

I fear from the evidence that you are correct.

[TonyLeung]

can someone plese teach xyborg the difficult process of correctly using the reply feature?

[qwertz]

When these old white guys start having kids with young Thai girls then that is all wrong.

But it's okay when these old white guys adopt the kids along with young Thai girls who have been cynically abandoned by the Thai husbands?

[Boo]

I see a lot of reference to feminism from the op & other men who reference it like it is some dirty word or a negative thing, so just in case some of you don't know what it is then here it the definition from the compact websters dictionary;

feminism

• noun the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of sexual equality.

[sylviex]

the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities

Well, I think the "roles and duties" part is reasonably clear, but I'd like to hear more about how Chiangmai (& others) see the "capabilities" of men and women.

Chiangmai, can you explain further, pls. ?

[qwertz]

I see a lot of reference to feminism from the op & other men who reference it like it is some dirty word or a negative thing, so just in case some of you don't know what it is then here it the definition from the compact websters dictionary;

feminism

• noun the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of sexual equality.

Strange, I've only seen the male equivalent labelled as misogynism or chauvinism.

Is there no such word as masculinism?

[chiang mai]

I see a lot of reference to feminism from the op & other men who reference it like it is some dirty word or a negative thing, so just in case some of you don't know what it is then here it the definition from the compact websters dictionary;

feminism

• noun the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of sexual equality.

I guessed it wouldn't be too long before we saw you here Boo.

I can't disagree with Websters definition and that's entirely appropriate for a Western dictionary. Now, the subject discussion being about women from the East, specifically from Thailand, should that Western definition from Websters be implemented here because I would be willing to bet the word doesn't even exist in the Thai vocabulary and if it does it almost certainly has a different definition.

[sylviex]

I see a lot of reference to feminism from the op & other men who reference it like it is some dirty word or a negative thing, so just in case some of you don't know what it is then here it the definition from the compact websters dictionary;

feminism

• noun the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of sexual equality.

Strange, I've only seen the male equivalent labelled as misogynism or chauvinism.

Is there no such word as masculinism?

No, there is such a word.

[Boo]

well as a majority of posts are referencing western feminism I thought I would just let you all the know the definition. If you were only interesting in the thai equilivant then you might have left out so many references to western women or western feminism?

[qwertz]

I see a lot of reference to feminism from the op & other men who reference it like it is some dirty word or a negative thing, so just in case some of you don't know what it is then here it the definition from the compact websters dictionary;

feminism

• noun the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of sexual equality.

Strange, I've only seen the male equivalent labelled as misogynism or chauvinism.

Is there no such word as masculinism?

No, there is such a word.

Then it should be used more in context, IMO.

[Boo]

qwerts doesn't it tell you something about how far we still have to go if we need a word to define that men & women should have the same rights & privilages?? As lets face it, men have always had them all so we are just now still trying to level the playing field.

OP why not ask about this on a thai language website where there are a lot more thai women posting instead of a place dominated by so many western men. You may get a true response about how thai women feel themselves on the subject or about western men thinking they have a say or role in their future liberation??

[qwertz]

When these old white guys start having kids with young Thai girls then that is all wrong.

But it's okay when these old white guys adopt the kids along with young Thai girls who have been cynically abandoned by the Thai husbands?

Amen to that, Boo .

I was just trimming the the course of the thread a little so it didn't fall into the usual " old white guys with young Thai girls" rut (see above).

Edited November 18, 2007 by qwertz

[autonomous_unit]

Unless the original poster's house guests are now planning to launch a mission to expand "western feminism" into Thailand, I don't see how his experience is really any different than any other culture shock moment. People come here and observe that customers would never be treated "that way" by a shopkeeper, or drivers would never be allowed on the road in "that condition" or "with those skills", or doctors would never discourage questions from patients, or children "spoiled like that", etc. All of these are similar surprises in store when you cross cultures, and having some of them be observations from a woman doesn't, in my view, make them suddenly an example of importing feminism. When I read between the lines, I see the original poster coloring some superficial tourists' observations based on his own apparent uneasiness with the changes happening in Thailand, drawing connections where they don't really exist.

I do have a dislike for missionaries of all types, and would agree it is misguided to come here and try to "convert" new feminists, just as I think it is misguided to come here to convert new Christians. But, I don't hold it against Thais to adopt feminism or Christianity if they find that it suits them. I don't think western feminism is being pushed into Thailand, so much as increased communication and economic activity is allowing the Thai culture to change on its own. While the west may play a part in this pot-stirring, it is diplomats and businessmen, not feminist activists, who are to be blamed or commended...

I am happy to see strides by individuals to gain more freedoms and choices in their lives, and the apparent success that Thais in my and my wife's generation (gen X) are having in finding the aspects of "western thought" (and social mobility) which suit them. I think the obvious generational trend is towards a more tolerant society that is capable of allowing lots of different lifestyles without stifling conformity and stereotypes.

I think a number of gender, ethnic, and socio-economic barriers are fading with time, and that is a good thing in my view. In answer to Andrew Hicks's question/observation: as an individualist I'm much happier to see some angst as society finds a new balance than to see individuals subjugated to a smothering role in the name of social cohesion. I agree that it could become disruptive if things change too rapidly, but I see no signs of that occurring here. On the contrary, much of the destructive unrest in Thailand (e.g. the deep South) comes from where these barriers are still too high, allowing a seething resentment to build.