Buying A Used European Car

[rixalex]

On occasion i've been tempted by used European cars, but always been scared off by the high up-keep costs. I go back to looking at the dull Japanese offerings, but just can't seem to bring myself to buy something so completely lacking in style or design. Of course you do get the reliability and good residuals. Then on the other hand, you can get a lot more car for your money if you go European.

My question is if you had the choice of Saab 900, Ford Mondeo*, Audi A4 or some other similar European model, versus a Toyota Soluna or some other such bland box on wheels, would you do the sensible thing or live dangerously?

And if you do live dangerously, what's the best pick of the European cars in the low end of the used market?

* never thought i'd come to think of a rep-mobile being exciting, but that's what living in Thailand can do to you!

[chanchao]

And if you do live dangerously, what's the best pick of the European cars in the low end of the used market?

I think Opel Campo's are easily servicable.

But seriously, it would have to be somethign with a lot of parts out there. So most certainly not the Saab or Ford Mondeo. But think Volvo, BMW or Mercedes and I think you're getting a lot closer.

Still, I'd rather have the Vios.

[rixalex]

And if you do live dangerously, what's the best pick of the European cars in the low end of the used market?

I think Opel Campo's are easily servicable.

But seriously, it would have to be somethign with a lot of parts out there. So most certainly not the Saab or Ford Mondeo. But think Volvo, BMW or Mercedes and I think you're getting a lot closer.

Still, I'd rather have the Vios.

Problem with the German cars though is that you are looking at a couple of hundred thousand more for something very long in the tooth. And in that sort of price bracket, ie 500 or 600k, you would, as you rightly say, be better off looking at something like a new Vios.

BTW - what's an Opel Campo? Sounds a bit gay.

[bobbin]

Well, I've been driving an 1985 BMW 520I for 4 years now. How's that for taking your chances? Had a fair bit of work done on it in that time and have yet to have parts problems. And it's not that common a vehicle here. Worth about Baht 100,000 tops.

It was/is my training car, because when I bought it I thought Thai traffic was crazy and I wanted something solid and inexpensive so I wasn't worried about dings. After 4 years, not a single instance of contact with another vehicle! So I'm thinking it's time to upgrade..a bit.

Mid-90's Audis, both the A4 and A6, are available from Baht 225,000 up, and same vintage Volkswagens are about Baht 150,000 up. I lean to the Audi as there are a lot more on the road. Same vintage Honda City with 1.5 ltr. engine about in the middle. I think German for me.

Probably a little harder to re-sell.

[Plus]

European used car market crashed when the oil price went up and is probably still undervalued now. People buying that sort of cars are quite senstive to daily running costs (and spare parts, too). Also keep in mind that entry level models were sold for the brand value only, they offer nothing you can't get from a Japanese car for a lot less.

[bobbin]

European used car market crashed when the oil price went up and is probably still undervalued now. People buying that sort of cars are quite senstive to daily running costs (and spare parts, too). Also keep in mind that entry level models were sold for the brand value only, they offer nothing you can't get from a Japanese car for a lot less.

Since I am thinking of going the used European route, I am open to learning from others.

What exactly is an entry level model anyway? Usually it refers to price-point and is the least expensive model in a particular badge line-up. But here ,surprisingly, the A6 of the same year is often less expensive than the A4. As long as it has a/c and automatic transmission I'm happy, but these models usually have ABS and at least one airbag. Bonus

As for getting a Japanese model for a lot less, I would have to disagree. Referencing 12Car, they price out the same for a given year, more or less. I'll still opt for the better car. Certainly an Audi A6 2.3 or 2.4 is a better car than a Honda City 1.5. Btw, the 2.3 is usually cheaper than the 2.4.

I'll just have to take my chances on the parts as they are more expensive for European. And I'll probably have to sell it on to an expat as they are more likely to see the value.

[rixalex]

But here ,surprisingly, the A6 of the same year is often less expensive than the A4.

I don't find that too surprising. Bigger cars always tend to depreciate quicker - there's more to go wrong with them and general up-keep is higher. Just look at the basic stuff like tyres. Reshodding a big car can cost you an arm and a leg.

[raybkk]

I would go for a Saab Draken (900 2-door with sport pack) Second hand to be found for about 300k. Still has the looks, and very reliable when being serviced at Saab.

http://www.one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails...71902&row=2

Link above as sample. There are a few around!

[thaihedgehog]

For 500k - 600k i would buy a VW Passat, should be able to get hold of a 1.9td, 2003 - 2004 model !! Just check the crash tests of Japanese cars before wasting your money on a car without ABS and Airbags. Always European cars for me also check the price for new parts and second hand parts for the car, you will find there isn't a huge difference in price from a Camry to an Audi A6 or a VW passat 2.3

[rixalex]

I would go for a Saab Draken (900 2-door with sport pack) Second hand to be found for about 300k. Still has the looks, and very reliable when being serviced at Saab.

http://www.one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails...71902&row=2

Link above as sample. There are a few around!

Yeah, the Saab 900 in particular, really interests me. The design has really aged well, although the interior does date it. After Saab were taken over by GM i think they lost a bit of their uniqueness, but i'm guessing became cheaper to run, as they shared the same platorm as GM cars.

Does anyone know which models are available here and which is best. I know that the LPT (Low Pressure Turbo) models were always highly thought of, but not sure if they were brought here. If they were, i'm wondering if the turbo might be a liability maintenance wise.

Another name to throw into the hat would be the XM. Seen a few of those about. Still, much as i admire the innovation of that car, even in the UK Citroens could be a pain in the arse to upkeep - out here 10 times worse i guess.

[LivinLOS]

I was really tempted by a late model Audi 100 or early A6.. A few around, classy shape, good interior, solid cars. I had a 100 years back and it took years of major abuse.

In the end I found a steal of a deal I couldnt pass up on a VW golf that in truth needed some TLC.. I spent a few little bits on sorting it but it was still way under the 12Car prices. I have has some parts issues that would have been easier on a Asian model motor and also some parts (plastics inside vents) that I refuse to spend multi 1000 on, either I will find one here second hand or even get parts posted from UK as its only trim.

But all downsides excepted its a superb buy, ended up costing me less than people driving real wrecks or around the same as a Nissan NV wingroad for a good looking reliable german made vehicle. I would certainly buy Euro again not least as it gives the individuality aspect.

[rixalex]

I was really tempted by a late model Audi 100 or early A6.. A few around, classy shape, good interior, solid cars. I had a 100 years back and it took years of major abuse.

In the end I found a steal of a deal I couldnt pass up on a VW golf that in truth needed some TLC.. I spent a few little bits on sorting it but it was still way under the 12Car prices. I have has some parts issues that would have been easier on a Asian model motor and also some parts (plastics inside vents) that I refuse to spend multi 1000 on, either I will find one here second hand or even get parts posted from UK as its only trim.

But all downsides excepted its a superb buy, ended up costing me less than people driving real wrecks or around the same as a Nissan NV wingroad for a good looking reliable german made vehicle. I would certainly buy Euro again not least as it gives the individuality aspect.

Happy motoring in the Golf.

Anyone else with first hand experience of living with and running a cheapish European motor?

[begsaresponse]

For me to buy a second hand older car I would have problems! No mechanical insight ..in the UK I just used to drive them.

Here I would need to find a reliable service station???

I think I would in the long term dig a big money black hole.

So forgive me for not sharing your thoughts on second hand! I will buy new.

[LivinLOS]

For me to buy a second hand older car I would have problems! No mechanical insight ..in the UK I just used to drive them.

Here I would need to find a reliable service station???

I think I would in the long term dig a big money black hole.

So forgive me for not sharing your thoughts on second hand! I will buy new.

Thats fair enough position if you really dont have any basic car knowledge, cars here tend to be badly maintained and Thai mechanics seem to struggle with small differences to European cars (why I cant understand). I have now found a really good Thai mechanic for VW but that did take some effort and hassles with others I agree.

As to the money pit aspect, its always possible to end up with a lemon but the numbers on a cheap car make sense to me. I have realized through bitter experience that in Thailand you should not try to own nice things (or at least too nice) and as per the costs I paid about as much to buy my car outright as one year of new car payments (let alone new car insurance, new car depreciation, etc etc) and having fixed the few small niggles (AC was broken, a electric window too) and immediately did a full service and timing chain as I trust no one to have been maintaining it, I am 90% sure I could resell at a profit as it stands (as I said I bought it at a steal price, someone behind on the payments and in $$ problems). Once cars get to a certain age here depreciation is negligible.

[thaihedgehog]

If you are looking at buying a VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat?? then all these cars have an OBD (on board computer) from the year 1991 onwards, have a look on ebay and pick one up for about 1,200 baht. Plug it into the car and check all the faults with the car (engine,gear,abs and airbags) if you find a couple of faults thats ok for a secong hand car. If you find 60 or more simply walk away. I bought a VW 3 months ago (1996 model) and fixed the 7 faulys that i had for a small cost and the car runs great now.

[thaihedgehog]

Unclear post, but if your wanting to buy a VW, Audi, Seat or Skoda have a look at this little device (might save you a few baht) <H1 class=itemTitle></H1><H1 class=itemTitle>VAG-COM VW Audi Car Diagnostic Code Reader OBD-2 Cable</H1>

[Plus]

I understand that second hand cars you are talking about cost as much as new SMALL Japanese cars.

Comparable Accord, Camry, Cefiro, or Galant of that age is almost half the price of Euros and can be serviced anywhere, including official serive centers.

In those days they were not as good as Audis, though, but they were loaded with ABS and airbags and the usual stuff.

Why not buy Benz or BMW? I imagine you'll have less hassle to service as they are a lot more popular.

[LivinLOS]

I understand that second hand cars you are talking about cost as much as new SMALL Japanese cars.

Comparable Accord, Camry, Cefiro, or Galant of that age is almost half the price of Euros and can be serviced anywhere, including official serive centers.

In those days they were not as good as Audis, though, but they were loaded with ABS and airbags and the usual stuff.

Why not buy Benz or BMW? I imagine you'll have less hassle to service as they are a lot more popular.

Really ?? All the asian model cars saw under 200k were pretty doggy or low end.. You can find a nice Audi 100 for that, careful buying will get a old A6 for not much more. I have seen multiple clean Volvos at <200 pricing. the 9xx models are very comfortable and priced ok comparatively, even seen 850's at not much more. While a volvo isnt my first choice of car, stacked up against some more than a decade old cefiro its head and shoulders better IMO.

My (really clean) golf was 140k baht.. Look at what you get for that money with an asian brand.. Almost all dogs, maybe the old 323 (not a bad buy for what it is.. 16v if you like a sporty) new 323 body shape is +- 200 for anything in OK nick.

As for Mercs and Beemers far to much status premium here.. Would love a clean 325 E36.. Solid little reliable drivers cars but what would be 50k baht well used example back home commands >300 here.. 90% of them at that price have been mangled up with boy racer bits and paying 400+k for a 10+ year old car.. Cant currently bring myself to do it.

[Plus]

Let's take audi A6 2000 and Accord 2000, both listed an No 5 if you search one2car.

Audi - 850k, Accord - 489. That's quite a bit of difference, but if you look at older models, the price gap narrows and Japanese were making crappier cars, perhaps for cars over ten years old Euros are cheaper indeed, all considered.

Nissan Cefiro, btw, had a 3l V6 engine and 2004 model is offered for 649k.

I want to clarify my earlier comment about entry level Euros. I don't know what were they like before the 1997 crisis, but in the recent years they have been downgrading their cars to fit Thai market. BMW doesn't sell 320/318 in the US, for example, and I doubt anyone would consider it a real BMW anyway, but Mercedes Benz is absolutely the worst offender. Out of half a dozen E-class models it currently offers, only the top model qualifies as a cheapest entry by US standards. I doubt they offer E-class with 160hp in Europe either. Top model Hondas have consitently offered better power output than entry 3 series, or C and E class Benz. Audi usually offers slightly less than comparable Benz or Bimmer, but I don't know anything about those old A6s, maybe they were the same cars you know from Europe, maybe not.

[LivinLOS]

The OP was looking at the low end of the market. If your looking for a cheap runabout in the under 200k or a basic reliable motor in say <300 or maybe 350 and under I think you get far more for your money with a locally unpopular Euro motor. The downsides are its harder to get service that knows the car and parts can cost so its more important to buy right.

Up where your talking in the mid 600 range then the options are totally different and the euros your looking at have not depreciated enough from thier horrific tax import tarrif premiums to make them much competition for the lower taxed ASEAN brands.

The kind of thing I (and possibly the OP) means is

http://one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails.asp...71442&row=2

Under 200k.. looks ok for its age.. Leather, AC, electric seats, stereo, etc etc.. For under 200k what would I be looking at in Asian cars ?? Some much smaller and less specced motor I am thinking. Same goes for some saabs (tho they look more dated than the audi IMO) VW's etc etc etc.

http://one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails.asp...72014&row=2

A under 150k clean looking car.. Its not going to win any style points, its not impressing anyone, but golfs truck on forever, economical etc etc.. For basic runs to the supermarket and drives round the country its a very very low total cost of ownership.

Edited December 3, 2007 by LivinLOS

[thaihedgehog]

The OP was looking at the low end of the market. If your looking for a cheap runabout in the under 200k or a basic reliable motor in say <300 or maybe 350 and under I think you get far more for your money with a locally unpopular Euro motor. The downsides are its harder to get service that knows the car and parts can cost so its more important to buy right.

Up where your talking in the mid 600 range then the options are totally different and the euros your looking at have not depreciated enough from thier horrific tax import tarrif premiums to make them much competition for the lower taxed ASEAN brands.

The kind of thing I (and possibly the OP) means is

http://one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails.asp...71442&row=2

Under 200k.. looks ok for its age.. Leather, AC, electric seats, stereo, etc etc.. For under 200k what would I be looking at in Asian cars ?? Some much smaller and less specced motor I am thinking. Same goes for some saabs (tho they look more dated than the audi IMO) VW's etc etc etc.

http://one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails.asp...72014&row=2

A under 150k clean looking car.. Its not going to win any style points, its not impressing anyone, but golfs truck on forever, economical etc etc.. For basic runs to the supermarket and drives round the country its a very very low total cost of ownership.

VW golf is still overpriced, 148,000 baht for a 1994 model look at the vento, same engine same parts same everything and you will pay 150,000 for a 1997 with ABS and airbags!!

[Plus]

I'd agree, for older cars Euros look like a better deal. Generally, though, second hand market is very competitive, prices are entirely market driven, and that includes image, reliability, service costs etc. etc. You get exactly what you pay for, the plus side for Euros is that their prices dropped significantly in the past few years due to high oil prices. Maybe at some point this market reaction took them deeper than they should really be, it will level out pretty soon, though.

[undercover]

I see a guy quite often driving an old 70s red Merc convertible along sukhumvit road Pattaya.

Stuck in heavy traffic bumper to bumper to the horizon the guy must have nerves of steel, all those old rare European components, Even if they have junked the old Merc lump and dropped in a modern Jap unit he still has all the rest of it,

Talk about a wing and a prayer.

[LivinLOS]

The OP was looking at the low end of the market. If your looking for a cheap runabout in the under 200k or a basic reliable motor in say <300 or maybe 350 and under I think you get far more for your money with a locally unpopular Euro motor. The downsides are its harder to get service that knows the car and parts can cost so its more important to buy right.

Up where your talking in the mid 600 range then the options are totally different and the euros your looking at have not depreciated enough from thier horrific tax import tarrif premiums to make them much competition for the lower taxed ASEAN brands.

The kind of thing I (and possibly the OP) means is

http://one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails.asp...71442&row=2

Under 200k.. looks ok for its age.. Leather, AC, electric seats, stereo, etc etc.. For under 200k what would I be looking at in Asian cars ?? Some much smaller and less specced motor I am thinking. Same goes for some saabs (tho they look more dated than the audi IMO) VW's etc etc etc.

http://one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails.asp...72014&row=2

A under 150k clean looking car.. Its not going to win any style points, its not impressing anyone, but golfs truck on forever, economical etc etc.. For basic runs to the supermarket and drives round the country its a very very low total cost of ownership.

VW golf is still overpriced, 148,000 baht for a 1994 model look at the vento, same engine same parts same everything and you will pay 150,000 for a 1997 with ABS and airbags!!

Kinda agree.. The vento would be even cheaper but I really dislike the body shape personally..

I always like Golfs but never owned one until here.. Would love to find a GTi or even VR6 (but parts nightmare I suspect).

[LivinLOS]

I see a guy quite often driving an old 70s red Merc convertible along sukhumvit road Pattaya.

Stuck in heavy traffic bumper to bumper to the horizon the guy must have nerves of steel, all those old rare European components, Even if they have junked the old Merc lump and dropped in a modern Jap unit he still has all the rest of it,

Talk about a wing and a prayer.

Body work is done so cheap here built from scratch.. I know someone who has restored up a old S class.. Probably early 80's but may be as far back as late 70s.. all the leatherwork and wood finish on the interior redone, looks superb in its way.

[Thaiboxer]

I'm not sure about the new generations of the Benz, but the 80's era ones had brake pads that were too small. My mother had a 1984 turbo diesel (bought second hand in 1990 or so). It was reliable, but not the kind of car you could navigate small sois in Bangkok with. If something did go wrong, it was BIG bucks to fix it...those expensive European car parts coupled with high labor charges so common in the West. In addition to the brake pads being too small for a car that heavy, the AC system often had vacuum tube problems resulting in lukewarm air every time you turned the AC on. Still, those old diesel engines could run forever!

[Plus]

Are those ten year old Euros reliable? You can trust ten year old Corolla won't break down every two weeks but what about ten year old locally assembled Audis?

Sending a car to the garage is a major annoyance in itself, never mind the costs.

[LivinLOS]

Audi make cars in Thailand ??

And so far I have found german makes very reliable.

[quiksilva]

I would go for a Saab Draken (900 2-door with sport pack) Second hand to be found for about 300k. Still has the looks, and very reliable when being serviced at Saab.

http://www.one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails...71902&row=2

Link above as sample. There are a few around!

Yeah, the Saab 900 in particular, really interests me. The design has really aged well, although the interior does date it. After Saab were taken over by GM i think they lost a bit of their uniqueness, but i'm guessing became cheaper to run, as they shared the same platorm as GM cars.

Does anyone know which models are available here and which is best. I know that the LPT (Low Pressure Turbo) models were always highly thought of, but not sure if they were brought here. If they were, i'm wondering if the turbo might be a liability maintenance wise.

I have a 1998 Saab 900 SE Super Draken, and that has a very unique look to it, I think.

The Saab dealer at Rachayothin informs me that there are just 19 left in Bangkok, and that they have become very popular with after market modders here, who are souping them up to 260bhp from their standard 185bhp.

After huge amounts of depreciation in their first few years they're now holding values quite well. Expect to pay between 400-600K depending on condition. The best place to find them is at Saab Club Of Thailand (Google them), there are a few TV members there too and are very helpful in all things.

Maintenance wise the turbo hasn't been a problem for me. I did have to change the condenser for the a/c when I first brought it about 5 years ago but that has been the only major replacement needed and it hasn't been a problem since. For these works I have always taken the car to Autotechnic at Saab Petchburi, and I have never found them to be THAT expensive that a/c job for instance cost me less than 20,000 BHT.

The problem comes when you have an accident. My insurance policy didnt cover work at main dealers so I had to take it to Somchai and Sons who claimed they had to ship the body parts in from Sweden, in fact it came from Autotechnic. My bump recently left me sans motor for 6 weeks as the muppets ordered the wrong part. If it wasn't for their incompetence it would have been sorted in less than a month.

I drive about 1000KMs a month and rarely have a problem. If you can find one in good condition, I would highly recommend it, because I have been very happy with this car. In fact, I am even thinking of keeping hold of it for a modding project, after I buy a new family sized car next year.

EDIT but be warned the Clarion CD player is rubbish and you can't change it. I resorted to using an Ipod and a Roadtrip, which frankly is better than any CD and I get CD like quality with the aerial down anyway.

Edited December 7, 2007 by quiksilva

[LivinLOS]

After huge amounts of depreciation in their first few years they're now holding values quite well. Expect to pay between 400-600K depending on condition. The best place to find them is at Saab Club Of Thailand (Google them), there are a few TV members there too and are very helpful in all things.

Or about 300 !!!

http://one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails.asp...71903&row=2

If it wasnt auto it would be interesting..