Uk Government Immigration Review.

[endure]

Britain tightens immigration requirements

LONDON: -- The British government Wednesday outlined details of a points-based system to "manage" immigration from outside the European Union (EU) under which unskilled workers would have little chance of entering Britain and spouses would have to pass an English language test.

The five-tier immigration system is aimed at attracting highly trained and skilled workers, according to Britain's economic needs, while low-skills "will only be used if specific shortages are identified that cannot be filled from the UK or European labour force."

The five-tier immigration system is aimed at placating Daily Mail readers but will have no effect on the real immigration problems that the UK faces...

[PhilHarries]

Britain tightens immigration requirements

LONDON: -- The British government Wednesday outlined details of a points-based system to "manage" immigration from outside the European Union (EU) under which unskilled workers would have little chance of entering Britain and spouses would have to pass an English language test.

The five-tier immigration system is aimed at attracting highly trained and skilled workers, according to Britain's economic needs, while low-skills "will only be used if specific shortages are identified that cannot be filled from the UK or European labour force."

The five-tier immigration system is aimed at placating Daily Mail readers but will have no effect on the real immigration problems that the UK faces...

Sadly this is very true. Much of public opinion in the UK these days is merely regurgitated tub thumping rubbish from the tabloids and now it appears it is, via that distorted public opinion, affecting government policies. The rise of nationalistic parties like the BNP plays on peoples xenophobia and is fueling the backlash against all immigrants. The PC brigade, despite their best intentions, are not helping the matter by introducing stupid measures, that even the immigrants don't want, thus presenting these people with more ammunition.

As others have said, there most definately needs to be a control on immigration together with measures to encourage more integration but I'm not sure these proposals will do the trick. I also struggle to get my head around the command of the English language for non EEA immigrants whilst those from within the fold have no requirements placed on them.

btw the only English qualification I have, apart from speaking it for fifty odd years, is a completely useless second grade CSE (not even the lowest grade of GCSE). I can speak, read and write the language but get me on the finer points of grammar and I'm totally lost. Oh well "British citizen failed".

Or should that be

[Prakanong]

"btw the only English qualification I have, apart from speaking it for fifty odd years, is a completely useless second grade CSE (not even the lowest grade of GCSE). I can speak, read and write the language but get me on the finer points of grammar and I'm totally lost. Oh well "British citizen failed". "

Looks liek we are in the same boat there with English then.

I do not know if the system should be praised or damned but I still managed to get a bachelor degree, a post-grad and am now doing my MBA without an o-level to my name and left school for the coal mine at 16!

As you say Britain needs to do something but is the English language tests for spuses the right thing?

Mosha says he comes from Dewsbury - that area has three out of four wives coming from the villages of Pakistan does it not -why do they not marry local muslim girls?

[ClaytonSeymour]

"btw the only English qualification I have, apart from speaking it for fifty odd years, is a completely useless second grade CSE (not even the lowest grade of GCSE). I can speak, read and write the language but get me on the finer points of grammar and I'm totally lost. Oh well "British citizen failed". "

Looks liek we are in the same boat there with English then.

I do not know if the system should be praised or damned but I still managed to get a bachelor degree, a post-grad and am now doing my MBA without an o-level to my name and left school for the coal mine at 16!

As you say Britain needs to do something but is the English language tests for spuses the right thing?

Mosha says he comes from Dewsbury - that area has three out of four wives coming from the villages of Pakistan does it not -why do they not marry local muslim girls? Arranged marriages, financial incentives, marrying cousins etc.

[plasticpig]

name='endure' date='2007-12-06 06:56:06' post='1690091']

The 'sub-continent' problem has been accumulating since 1600 when we British decided that the sub-continent belonged to us. If you invade a continent and declare that it's British you can hardly complain when its inhabitants claim to be British too.

Hardly a sensible argument now days.

Look at the size of the uk, it's to small for all the people at present.

Could we fit say 70 million more in , don't think so.

Saying that, if I had my way,

Great Britain would be Great again.

But because we have all the do gooders in all government offices now

feathering there nest for people of the same ilk.

Great Britain will never ever be Great again.

Your children can't even afford to buy a house in there own town

unless they mortgage up for the rest of there existence.

Disgraceful Britain.

Leave now boys and girls if you can,

It will only get worse.

Edited December 6, 2007 by plasticpig

[Prakanong]

"btw the only English qualification I have, apart from speaking it for fifty odd years, is a completely useless second grade CSE (not even the lowest grade of GCSE). I can speak, read and write the language but get me on the finer points of grammar and I'm totally lost. Oh well "British citizen failed". "

Looks liek we are in the same boat there with English then.

I do not know if the system should be praised or damned but I still managed to get a bachelor degree, a post-grad and am now doing my MBA without an o-level to my name and left school for the coal mine at 16!

As you say Britain needs to do something but is the English language tests for spuses the right thing?

Mosha says he comes from Dewsbury - that area has three out of four wives coming from the villages of Pakistan does it not -why do they not marry local muslim girls? Arranged marriages, financial incentives, marrying cousins etc.

They will have plenty of cousins close by and also attanged marriages can be made locally too.

Financial incentives - I bet a larger dowry could be made in most cases locally.

What about wanting a woman never exposed to the western ways?

Family obligations? - bringing over cousins as you say.

I really do not know the reasons and am totally guessing. I am from further north and immigrants never made their way there in great numbers before I left in 1985. We had a couple of South Asian Dr's and one or two shop owners in my town.

There was only one black guy in the whole town too - sone of an American marine and a local girl.

It was and still is a weird town - the land that time forgot.

[ClaytonSeymour]

Think it's a case of

Bolting the gate after the horse has gone.

Now thanks to Tony Blair, the uk is full of people who are not from the uk.

All the genuine people who wish to take there wives back to the uk

Now are getting a few more hoops to jump through.

Glad I left years ago.

The uk is a disgrace now.

Though I'd echo much of your sentiment, to be fair, neither Tony Blair or the current government is solely responsible for this. The "sub-continent" problem has been accumulating over the last five decades so, I'd blame every single government since then for failing to address this.

The 'sub-continent' problem has been accumulating since 1600 when we British decided that the sub-continent belonged to us. If you invade a continent and declare that it's British you can hardly complain when its inhabitants claim to be British too.

So, on that basis maybe I should claim Italian citizenship owing to the Roman's expedition over here, or perhaps I should claim French citizenship and blame William the Conqueror & if I didn't fancy either of those there's always Danish on account of the Vikings and so the list goes on.

[ClaytonSeymour]

"btw the only English qualification I have, apart from speaking it for fifty odd years, is a completely useless second grade CSE (not even the lowest grade of GCSE). I can speak, read and write the language but get me on the finer points of grammar and I'm totally lost. Oh well "British citizen failed". "

Looks liek we are in the same boat there with English then.

I do not know if the system should be praised or damned but I still managed to get a bachelor degree, a post-grad and am now doing my MBA without an o-level to my name and left school for the coal mine at 16!

As you say Britain needs to do something but is the English language tests for spuses the right thing?

Mosha says he comes from Dewsbury - that area has three out of four wives coming from the villages of Pakistan does it not -why do they not marry local muslim girls? Arranged marriages, financial incentives, marrying cousins etc.

They will have plenty of cousins close by and also attanged marriages can be made locally too.

Financial incentives - I bet a larger dowry could be made in most cases locally.

What about wanting a woman never exposed to the western ways?

Family obligations? - bringing over cousins as you say.

I really do not know the reasons and am totally guessing. I am from further north and immigrants never made their way there in great numbers before I left in 1985. We had a couple of South Asian Dr's and one or two shop owners in my town.

There was only one black guy in the whole town too - sone of an American marine and a local girl.

It was and still is a weird town - the land that time forgot.

I was born not far from Dewsbury, & I've still got friends who live in the area. I've had sufficient contact with people from the Asian community on a professional basis to know that all of the reasons that I mentioned, you mentioned & others are all valid. Not wanting a woman exposed to western ways is a good one, though this doesn't exclusively involve women; it's quite common for a woman from the UK Asian community to marry a man from say rural Pakistan.

We're heading into topic closed territory as to really debate this properly would involve bringing up the topic of religion, so perhaps we should leave it there.

[david96]

What level of English do we require? "O" level or "A" level?

All that is required is basic conversational English, the ability to be able to read common English phrases and notices.

Basic writing skills. "Political Correct" English must be excluded. Use male and female terms as required etc.

The standard of an average Anglo Saxon 11 year student perhaps?

[plasticpig]

name='ClaytonSeymour' date='2007-12-06 08:56:54' post='1690215']

I was born not far from Dewsbury, & I've still got friends who live in the area. I've had sufficient contact with people from the Asian community on a professional basis to know that all of the reasons that I mentioned, you mentioned & others are all valid. Not wanting a woman exposed to western ways is a good one, though this doesn't exclusively involve women; it's quite common for a woman from the UK Asian community to marry a man from say rural Pakistan.

We're heading into topic closed territory as to really debate this properly would involve bringing up the topic of religion, so perhaps we should leave it there.

It's called an arranged marriage for your information.

many pros and cons for that.

but few get the choice.

Edited December 6, 2007 by plasticpig

[ClaytonSeymour]

name='ClaytonSeymour' date='2007-12-06 08:56:54' post='1690215']

I was born not far from Dewsbury, & I've still got friends who live in the area. I've had sufficient contact with people from the Asian community on a professional basis to know that all of the reasons that I mentioned, you mentioned & others are all valid. Not wanting a woman exposed to western ways is a good one, though this doesn't exclusively involve women; it's quite common for a woman from the UK Asian community to marry a man from say rural Pakistan.

We're heading into topic closed territory as to really debate this properly would involve bringing up the topic of religion, so perhaps we should leave it there.

It's called an arranged marriage for your information.Thanks plasticpig, but if you'd read my earlier posts you'd see I already mentioned that term.

many pros and cons for that.

but few get the choice. Of course, agree with you entirely on that.

[Dave the Dude]

Think it's a case of

As for the East-European issue then YES, Tony Blair and the current government are to blame.

Hi

I agree with your comments, but remember you cant blame an individual for wanting a better life in another country. Thats why I'm in LOS trying to integrate and learn the language.

Joe Public in the UK is worried about the immediate issues which are the ever increasing flow of people within Europe into England. If things in their countries are that bad, why do they pass through numerous other countries without stopping there. We (UK citizens) all know the answer to that one. I have worked in many building sites in London and been the only English speaker . That is not good for anyone and a close friend (who holds a high position in a London commercial glazing company) has told me the morgues in London have MANY poor souls who just could not understand safety issues &/or warnings signs.

Sorry to give such an extreme example but believe me, Its a real life one and sometimes hard rules are there for the benefit of all.

Dave (from the university of hard knocks,Brixton)

[wannarepat]

Without wanting to sound nasty, and smug having a highly skilled and qualified Thai wife with a UK-gained MA in English about to apply for a spouse visa, is it not fairly reasonable that those wishing to live in the UK permenantly should know the odd word or two of English? On the other hand do we really need yet another hoop to jump through?

[the scouser]

..... On the other hand do we really need yet another hoop to jump through?

I think that's the real issue here. Should this new rule be introduced, it will inevitably add another layer of cost to what is already an expensive process. Additionally, whatever form the test takes, the government is unlikely to accept "pass" certificates from any old English school, so it is probable that an exclusive contract to operate the test will be awarded to a single company. If the proposed test is then set at a basic standard, one would have to question the reasoning behind it. What's the point in having a test if it's so easy: would it be simply to feather the nest of the outfit awarded the contract?

I do find the government's methods disingenuous. They dress it up as a means to better intergration when their motives are purely financial.

Scouse.

[naomisri]

Scouser - any idea what the level of English needed will be?

[the scouser]

It hasn't as yet been determined. You can read the full consultation document at:-

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/6353/6356...onsultation.pdf

Scouse.

[samran]

seems to me to be more smoke and mirrors than anything else....

The 'Australian style points system' has already been in place for about 4 years now, and it is called in the UK the Highly Skilled Migrant Permit. I happen to have one which was issued in 2004, and which runs out it 2008.

This seems to be more a puff piece for the chavs than anything else. Things will continue along as they have before.

If they were serious in moving towards to an Australian style system, then I should have (for instance) my HSMP visa immediately converted into a ILR visa, as happens in Australia where all skilled migrants who come under a points system are given immediate PR.

[mrbojangles]

Have you never thught that maybe the husband is a fluent thai speaker?

Good point, although it will probably only affect a very small number, so they'll get swept under the carpet.

I have a mate (a TV member) who teaches in Bangkok, only a young lad and he is totally fluent in Thai. Got married, has a kid and his wife can't speak English, because he talks Thai all the time. Last time i saw him he was thinking of coming back to the UK in a few years, to get an higher paid job etc. etc.

How will this affect him?

[naomisri]

What's the current level needed for ILR? Do you think it will make that test redundant or be at a lower level? I know you can't say for certain, but I reckon you could make an educated guess - at least a better one than I could

Edited for spelink...

Edited December 6, 2007 by naomisri

[Boo]

Naomisri, afaik to qualify for ILR, the applicatant needs a life in the UK test pass or an english language course which includes citizenship content. Of course cause it is for ILR it has to be obtained from a UK education centre (to the best of my knowledge!).

Scouse, do you know if a thai citizen who is not living in or has yet been granted a residency visa, can take the life in the Uk test whilst on holiday in the UK, to be used at a later date with the application for ILR?

[the scouser]

Scouse, do you know if a thai citizen who is not living in or has yet been granted a residency visa, can take the life in the Uk test whilst on holiday in the UK, to be used at a later date with the application for ILR?

Yes, they can. The person's immigration status is irrelevant to the taking of the test.

Scouse.

[the scouser]

.....Do you think it will make that test redundant or be at a lower level?

The cynic in me says that the proposed new test would be in addition to that at the ILR stage. They wouldn't want their pals to be losing revenue now, would they?

Scouse.

[roamer]

This is from the Times. From the looks of it the test should not be too onerous and appears to favour an oral test, dare I say that shouldn't be too much of a problem for a lot of prospective Thai brides.....

And I guess we are no longer a nation of Alf Garnetts, though we should have paid heed, and if you thought Alf was obnoxious you should meet the Cat 1 a**hole who portrayed him.

Thousands of foreigners who want to marry a British person and move to this country would have to take an English test intended to help their integration, under a Home Office plan.

More than 40,000 foreigners, including about 17,000 from the Indian subcontinent, would be affected. The tests would be taken before the prospective immigrant left for Britain. Ministers also announced proposals to curb forced marriages and end immigration by low-skilled people from outside the European Economic Area. The Government believes that Britain’s needs for low-skilled workers can be met from within the EU for the “foreseeable future”. It is also to bring forward measures barring anyone given a jail term of more than 30 months from ever becoming a British citizen.

Announcing the measures yesterday, Liam Byrne, the Immigration Minister, said: “We ignore concerns about the impact of immigration at our peril.”

In a speech in London today Mr Byrne will say that the deal for migrants is unambiguous: “Speak the language, obey the law and make sure you’re paying your taxes like the rest of us.” He will add: “We are not a nation of Alf Garnetts.”

The Government’s consultation papers were put out in preparation for a draft immigration Bill to be published next year. English tests were introduced for foreigners taking British citizenship in 2005 and could now be widened to spouses and those who are engaged.

The Bill will have a particular impact on communities that originate in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh: 17,000 spouses and intending spouses entered Britain from those countries last year.

Ministers have for some time been privately concerned that some of those arriving from the subcontinent have no knowledge of English and so are vulnerable to exploitation, isolated and do not have access to the job market. “We are underlining how important we see command of the English language,” Mr Byrne said. “If we are serious about English, shouldn’t we give these individuals a flying start in the UK by asking them to speak English from the day they arrive?”

The consultation paper asked whether a written or oral test should be imposed and also asked for comments on whether it should apply to spouses who cannot read or write. It appears to support an oral test in which a person would be expected to use familiar expressions, introduce themselves and answer questions about themselves and where they live.

The paper also asked whether failure to pass an English language test should lead to outright refusal of entry to Britain, or whether a temporary visa should be granted to allow the applicant to take language lessons. The Home Office provided no details of whether Britain would help people to acquire skills in English in their home country.

Mr Byrne said that he wanted new powers to ban anyone with an unspent conviction from being able to take British nationality – which would mean anyone handed a jail term of 30 months or more.

The measures also feature action against forced marriages, including a suggestion that the minimum age at which someone could sponsor a spouse or be brought in to Britain as a spouse should rise from 18 to 21.

It also asked whether ministers should have the power to revoke someone’s permission to stay if they had been awarded it after marrying a British person and the relationship later broke down.

Ministers are also considering allowing young men and women sponsoring a foreign person to come to Britain for the purpose of marriage to make a confidential statement about the motives for the visa application. This would allow the individual to express reservations, so that the applciation could be turned down without members of their family being alienated.

Damian Green, the Conservative spokesman, said: “The Government is once again copying some of our policies, but failing to take the key step of announcing a limit on the number of people they will allow to come and work in Britain.

“Without such a limit, the new system will be ineffective in allowing public services to plan for arrivals.

Also in the print edition though not the online one there is a graph showing that in 2006 about 2100 Thai partners admitted on probationary period, Philippines on 1100 and in the Gold medal position, Pakistan on 8500. I could also hazard a guess that the incoming partners were almost exclusively female in the case of Thailand and male in the case of Pakistan.

[ClaytonSeymour]

Have you never thught that maybe the husband is a fluent thai speaker?

Good point, although it will probably only affect a very small number, so they'll get swept under the carpet.

I have a mate (a TV member) who teaches in Bangkok, only a young lad and he is totally fluent in Thai. Got married, has a kid and his wife can't speak English, because he talks Thai all the time. Last time i saw him he was thinking of coming back to the UK in a few years, to get an higher paid job etc. etc.

How will this affect him?

I'm actually amazed that a teacher wouldn't bother to teach even basic English to his Wife, which is all this test will actually be. I assume his kid (if old enough) doesn't speak English either? Surely as a teacher he ought to realise that teaching them English will give them a much better chance in life.

[samran]

.....Do you think it will make that test redundant or be at a lower level?

The cynic in me says that the proposed new test would be in addition to that at the ILR stage. They wouldn't want their pals to be losing revenue now, would they?

Scouse.

Cynic?

You and me both. As we have PM'ed from time to time on the topic of the HSMP visa, what started off as a relatively cheap and easy visa has now morphed into an expensive visa to apply for and then renew (in my case twice renew). It is a massive rort off the applicant, approaching 400 quid each time, and as far as I can see, it has more to do with money into the treasury than it has to do with constructing an effective and efficient and above all, transparent migration programme.

[mrbojangles]

Have you never thught that maybe the husband is a fluent thai speaker?

Good point, although it will probably only affect a very small number, so they'll get swept under the carpet.

I have a mate (a TV member) who teaches in Bangkok, only a young lad and he is totally fluent in Thai. Got married, has a kid and his wife can't speak English, because he talks Thai all the time. Last time i saw him he was thinking of coming back to the UK in a few years, to get an higher paid job etc. etc.

How will this affect him?

I'm actually amazed that a teacher wouldn't bother to teach even basic English to his Wife, which is all this test will actually be. I assume his kid (if old enough) doesn't speak English either? Surely as a teacher he ought to realise that teaching them English will give them a much better chance in life.

I don't know the full in's and out's. When i used to be an Electrician, the last thing i wanted to do was come home and start wiring my own house.

But it's the same with me in the UK. Before my mrs came to the UK, my Thai reading and writing was getting pretty good, then she came to the UK and the number one priority is getting her English as good as possible. His little one is only about 18months old, no doubt he'll get onto it.

[bunple]

... i can see it now, go to Thiland marry the G/F do all the paper work for the visa pay the 36k and then she gets bounced because her 'Englit' is not up to the required level, sorry no re-fund.

[JimsKnight]

Think it's a case of

Bolting the gate after the horse has gone.

Now thanks to Tony Blair, the uk is full of people who are not from the uk.

All the genuine people who wish to take there wives back to the uk

Now are getting a few more hoops to jump through.

Glad I left years ago.

The uk is a disgrace now.

Though I'd echo much of your sentiment, to be fair, neither Tony Blair or the current government is solely responsible for this. The "sub-continent" problem has been accumulating over the last five decades so, I'd blame every single government since then for failing to address this.

The 'sub-continent' problem has been accumulating since 1600 when we British decided that the sub-continent belonged to us. If you invade a continent and declare that it's British you can hardly complain when its inhabitants claim to be British too.

Hardly, the main wave them arrived on invitation (previous labour government I believe) to help fill the labour gap and help rebuild the country after WW2, only problem is they brought their families with them. Dual citizenship granted no problem (unlike Thailand) so can waltz in every family member they want without restriction, already got a property in Pakistan and now have loads in Britain as well. If it all goes tits up they can waltz on back to the homeland! 'Can we come?', sure, just renounce your faith and citizenship cause religious tolerance in the ethnic countries (sub-continent) is waaay down on the list!

UK is a poorly place now (this being one of them).

I pity you guys wanting to settle down and live there with your thai wives, you're better off staying put.

[pointofview]

Think it's a case of

Bolting the gate after the horse has gone.

Now thanks to Tony Blair, the uk is full of people who are not from the uk.

All the genuine people who wish to take there wives back to the uk

Now are getting a few more hoops to jump through.

Glad I left years ago.

The uk is a disgrace now.

Not acording to Jack Straw: 'people have never been so well off and content'. Surely he wouldnt lie, after all he is a major player in the governing anti christ.

It all seems a load of incidious bullshit - how come poles taking their driving tests are allowed a translator in the car/bus.

Edited December 6, 2007 by pointofview

[RAZZELL]

I think being able to speak/understand english isnt an unreasonable rquirement - after all seems a bit odd that someone would marry a thai and not be able to have any meaningfull conversation with them.

That's right and I think they have been carefully thought before announcing. It's reasonable. I wouldn't marry to someone I can't or able to have convo with.

What about if you speak Thai?

On second thoughts...sometimes that might not be such a bad thing...

RAZZ

Edited December 6, 2007 by RAZZELL