Amor Restaurant

[Pattaya_Fox]

Please keep it civil.

Although everyone holds their own opinion sometimes it is better not to post it if it constitutes flaming.

For as you are all aware after reading the forum rules flaming posts may well lead to a warning and/or suspension.

Thanks for your future cooperation.

[wilko]

"That locals are "immune" to food poisoning is a bit of a myth too....they just know where and what to eat....and certainly don't eat all those western buffets....but they do get the shits too...guaranteed!"

Yes they get the shits but they can tolerate certain germs other baddies better than a newbie just exposed to them if they have more exposure - pretty basic science.

I agree.

But no less a learned gentlemen than a senior physician at Bumrungrad lectured me on the unclean water that I should be careful about, and the fact that Thais have much less problem due to their exposure to it from an early age.

Anyway, as I said, I'll take my chances. Thai food's too tasty to let these things worry me too much.

I also share your views about a lot of dodgy farang food.

Our tolerance also increases with exposure to them too - there are some items which will always cause illness.

Its not so long ago I was on a charity housebuild from work in Indonesia. Alongside us was a very dirty stream with off runs from local shacks etc. The kids were swimming and diving right among us - the Singapore Dr's I was with were shocked but other said the kids will have immunity to most of that now and said maybe their own kids were too sterile these days.

Its also strange with rotavirus - every one of us has had about 3 episodes of this by the time we are 5 years old when our resistance builds and immunity system kicks in. Problem is in the developing world where the side effects such as dehydration etc can kill

Ther is now a vaccine for this - sales are crap in Singapore as they have to pay for it.

Tolerance to what?

Even amoeba they are not virus or bacteria.....virus you inoculate against some, some bacteria and virus you become immune or less vulnerable to after infection but I'm not so sure about many of the main causes of food poisoning.......It's the toxins produced by the bacteria that give you the symptoms and you can't be "immune" to toxins either.

Edited December 14, 2007 by wilko

[Farma]

After 3 decades of eating weird and wonderful food from street vendors in S.E Asia and the Middle East my body has definitely built up a tolerance to food bugs.

I can eat stuff now that years ago would have had me immediately running to the nearest squatter with the squirts.

In all those years my only 2 cases of food poisoning came from western restaurants in Malaysia.

[aguy30]

I want to start by saying that I am not a friend of the owner or a regular customer at Amor. I have eaten there a few times and I believe it to be clean and properly run. It was good but is just not my favorite menu. I understand that Richard (owner) is a professional in the food industry. He has pride and I do not believe that he would allow anything to be served if there was any question about its safety or quality. I made these observations and conclusions as a previous owner manager of multiple restaurants.

Amor has been condemned in this topic without any real evidence. People are quick to make assumptions about how they got diarrhea. It is highly unlikely that a fresh cooked meal would have any live bacteria. Three people thinking that they got food poisoning there does not make it fact. I would really hate to have this group of "experts" sit on a jury. GUILTY!!!!!! from the start, now does anyone have any facts?

[rambler]

i would have bet my last condom that i was gonna get called homophobic

You're a classic troll and a bore for taking this thread by advertising your own personal shortcomings.

yes sorry i did take the thread off topic just expressing my honest opinion from personal experience cobba. By the way is a classic troll better than your average troll if so thanks xx

[Jingthing]

Throughout the world when a group of people go to the same restaurant and then they all get food poisoning, they correctly implicate the restaurant. It happens in Pattaya too. Sounds like it MIGHT have happened at a restaurant named Amor. 100 percent proof. No. But running a public biz serving food to the public, having health issues with your food is part of territory. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

What should happen here is the victims should go to the owner with medical bills in hand and demand monetary compensation. If they don't do that, maybe this is a made up story. That is certainly possible too. It would be a shame if the Amor was falsely accused, for sure.

Hopefully, the truth will come out.

However, I wouldn't get all too choked up about this. The location is excellent, the tourists will continue flocking there in any event.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Jingthing

[stevemiddie]

Amor has been condemned in this topic without any real evidence. People are quick to make assumptions about how they got diarrhea. It is highly unlikely that a fresh cooked meal would have any live bacteria. Three people thinking that they got food poisoning there does not make it fact. I would really hate to have this group of "experts" sit on a jury. GUILTY!!!!!! from the start, now does anyone have any facts?

It does not make it fact but it does sound highly likely that the scource was that restaurant.

I doubt they " thought " they had food poisoning.

Sounds like they definately did.

3 people being sick after eating there does suggest food poisoning from the place they ate at.

IMHO

I for one will not be visiting there.

[sloopy]

If I decided not to eat at a Pattaya restaurant (including all the so called top establsihments) where friends or acquaintances have claimed to have had food poisoning, then I would have no choice but to eat at home.

And if anyone decides to brave Amor after all that has been said, I highly recommend the onion soup.

[wilko]

After 3 decades of eating weird and wonderful food from street vendors in S.E Asia and the Middle East my body has definitely built up a tolerance to food bugs.

I can eat stuff now that years ago would have had me immediately running to the nearest squatter with the squirts.

In all those years my only 2 cases of food poisoning came from western restaurants in Malaysia.

Unless you eat exactly the same meal twice you will never know as that was 15 years ago it's impossible.

[Prakanong]

"That locals are "immune" to food poisoning is a bit of a myth too....they just know where and what to eat....and certainly don't eat all those western buffets....but they do get the shits too...guaranteed!"

Yes they get the shits but they can tolerate certain germs other baddies better than a newbie just exposed to them if they have more exposure - pretty basic science.

I agree.

But no less a learned gentlemen than a senior physician at Bumrungrad lectured me on the unclean water that I should be careful about, and the fact that Thais have much less problem due to their exposure to it from an early age.

Anyway, as I said, I'll take my chances. Thai food's too tasty to let these things worry me too much.

I also share your views about a lot of dodgy farang food.

Our tolerance also increases with exposure to them too - there are some items which will always cause illness.

Its not so long ago I was on a charity housebuild from work in Indonesia. Alongside us was a very dirty stream with off runs from local shacks etc. The kids were swimming and diving right among us - the Singapore Dr's I was with were shocked but other said the kids will have immunity to most of that now and said maybe their own kids were too sterile these days.

Its also strange with rotavirus - every one of us has had about 3 episodes of this by the time we are 5 years old when our resistance builds and immunity system kicks in. Problem is in the developing world where the side effects such as dehydration etc can kill

Ther is now a vaccine for this - sales are crap in Singapore as they have to pay for it.

Tolerance to what?

Even amoeba they are not virus or bacteria.....virus you inoculate against some, some bacteria and virus you become immune or less vulnerable to after infection but I'm not so sure about many of the main causes of food poisoning.......It's the toxins produced by the bacteria that give you the symptoms and you can't be "immune" to toxins either.

You mention vaccines - funny that as these were Dr's from the biggest vaccine company in the world

[naka]

Last week I went to this restaurant with my wife and her brother and his boyfriend. The service was good but the next morning we all suffered very bad food poisoning and my wife spent 3 nights in hospital.

It seems there was something wrong with the fish as we all had seafood.

Have other members suffered at this place recently?

Ho Hum ... Everyone gets the runs in Thailand at some time.

Naka.

[gharknes]

I'm sure people are correct when they say street vendors food is OK but unfortunately I see where and how it is prepared before they hit the streets (mostly the cooked BBQ type stuff) i pass them every day..............no thanks

The noodle stalls and other fixed street vendors i don't mind but the wheely cart brigade i avoid.

[Jingthing]

Regarding the Amor Restaurant in the heart of Boyztown, do you think it is true what they say: there is no such thing as BAD publicity?

Getting sick from BAD FISH is indeed fairly common. The OP might offer more details on exactly what they ate there. Do people agree with me that a suspect restaurant owes at the very least medical expenses to the victims?

Edited December 15, 2007 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Fish is always touchy. I had some friends that had a similar experience. I am not a big fish eater, so I didn't eat any, but the leftover fish I took home for my cats--they go nuts for fish. They wouldn't touch it. The next day my friends were all quite ill. They said the fish tasted fine.

There is also a real problem with cross-contamination of infected food--knives, hands, all kinds of things.

We once had an afterwork get together and everyone got sick--some more so than others. That was 15 people. Two ended up in hospital and three others were out of work from a day to a week. The place was nice and the kitchen area open and appeared clean. Some folks only drank water (with ice), some only drank beer, some ate, some didn't. It very well may have been Salmonella and the dishes were infected, possibly the ice, but a few folks drank beer without ice.

We tried to call the health department. Not to get the restaurant into trouble, but to have them call and inform them of the situation--we all liked the place and it was obvious they had a problem. The health department wouldn't do it. They wanted written statements, Dr.'s reports etc.. Even explaining it wasn't a desire for compensation or anything other than for their assistance in letting the owner know he might have a problem and what needed to be done to correct it.

Their lack of inaction meant that whatever the problem was, it remained as we knew of people getting sick two months later. For those of us with a healthy immune system it was pretty mild--for me, just a little diahrrea for a week, no fever, no stomachache etc.

We finally found someone who knew the owner and called him. He was very grateful and had the entire place thoroughly cleaned and disinfected. We still go back there.

Hope it was just those folks and only the fish.

[Mighty Mouse]

The conditions in some of those Asian fish farms are so disgusting that consuming their fish will always be a health risk.

[mikethevigoman]

Last week I went to this restaurant with my wife and her brother and his boyfriend. The service was good but the next morning we all suffered very bad food poisoning and my wife spent 3 nights in hospital.

It seems there was something wrong with the fish as we all had seafood.

Have other members suffered at this place recently?

Ho Hum ... Everyone gets the runs in Thailand at some time.

Naka.

and some are full of shlt !

[wilko]

won't go into why street vendors food is relatively safe ....again....the logic is there for those who look.

BUT

I'm no immunologist however it occurs to me that most food poisoning is a bacterial infection.

compare this with other bacterial infections....how many people would suggest that because they have had many STDs, they are now immune?

You can't be immune to syphilis and gonorrhea and the lesser diseases....so ask yourself why should you be "immune" to food poisoning - salmonella etc???

[Prakanong]

won't go into why street vendors food is relatively safe ....again....the logic is there for those who look.

BUT

I'm no immunologist however it occurs to me that most food poisoning is a bacterial infection.

compare this with other bacterial infections....how many people would suggest that because they have had many STDs, they are now immune?

You can't be immune to syphilis and gonorrhea and the lesser diseases....so ask yourself why should you be "immune" to food poisoning - salmonella etc???

I will get an answer for this tomorrow for you when I am surrounded by clinicians who are specialists in immuniolgy

There are different pathogens though that cause the skitters in different geographical locations ie different in Thailand from home country. Some will make visitors sick while the locals do not get sick from the same ones - longer term visitors might not get sick either!

I usually get the skitters on a trip back to Europe

[Prakanong]

won't go into why street vendors food is relatively safe ....again....the logic is there for those who look.

BUT

I'm no immunologist however it occurs to me that most food poisoning is a bacterial infection.

compare this with other bacterial infections....how many people would suggest that because they have had many STDs, they are now immune?

You can't be immune to syphilis and gonorrhea and the lesser diseases....so ask yourself why should you be "immune" to food poisoning - salmonella etc???

Here you go

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?...ction.1213#1225

"Antibodies can block the adherence of bacteria to host cells.

Many bacteria have cell-surface molecules called adhesins that enable them to bind to the surface of host cells. This adherence is critical to the ability of these bacteria to cause disease, whether they subsequently enter the cell, as do some pathogens such as Salmonella species, or remain attached to the cell surface as extracellular pathogens (Fig. 9.26). Neisseria gonorrhoeae, the causative agent of the sexually transmitted disease gonorrhea, has a cellsurface protein known as pilin. Pilin enables the bacterium to adhere to the epithelial cells of the urinary and reproductive tracts and is essential to its infectivity. Antibodies against pilin can inhibit this adhesive reaction and prevent infection.

IgA antibodies secreted onto the mucosal surfaces of the intestinal, respiratory, and reproductive tracts are particularly important in preventing infection by preventing the adhesion of bacteria, viruses, or other pathogens to the epithelial cells lining these surfaces. The adhesion of bacteria to cells within tissues can also contribute to pathogenesis, and IgG antibodies against adhesins can protect from damage much as IgA antibodies protect at mucosal surfaces"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?...ction.1355#1366

"10-18. Enteric pathogens cause a local inflammatory response and the development of protective immunity.

In spite of the array of innate immune mechanisms in the gut and stiff competition from the indigenous flora, the gut is a frequent site of infection by pathogenic microorganisms. These include many species of viruses, enteric pathogenic bacteria including Salmonella, Yersinia, Shigella, and Listeria, and protozoa such as Entamoeba histolytica and Cryptosporidium. These organisms cause disease in many different ways, but there are certain common features of infection that are crucial to understanding how these pathogens stimulate an immune response by the host, in contrast to the immunological tolerance shown to the foreign antigens ingested in food.

The most important consequence of infection in the gut, as elsewhere in the body, is the development of an inflammatory response. The release of cytokines and chemokines in this response is key to the induction of an adaptive immune response. The inflammatory mediators stimulate the maturation of dendritic cells and other antigen-presenting cells, so that they express the co-stimulatory molecules that provide the additional signals for activation and expansion of naive lymphocytes.

Some intestinal pathogens infect enterocytes, the absorptive cells that line much of the intestine. Enterocytes do not act as passive victims of infection but signal infection by releasing cytokines and chemokines. These include the chemokine IL-8, which is a potent neutrophil chemoattractant, and CC chemokines such as MCP-1, MIP-1α and β, and RANTES, which are chemoattractants for monocytes, eosinophils, and T lymphocytes (see Fig. 2.33). In this way, the onset of infection triggers an influx of inflammatory cells and lymphocytes, leading to the induction of an immune response to the antigens of the infectious agent. Injury and stress to the enterocytes lining the gut may also stimulate the expression of nonclassical MHC molecules, such as MIC-A and MIC-B (see Section 10-14). These act as ligands to the receptors on γ:δ T cells at the base of the crypts, which kill the infected mucosal cell, thereby promoting repair and recovery of the injured mucosa.

A number of pathogens directly exploit the M cell as a means of invasion. Some viruses are transported through the M cell by transcytosis and from the subepithelial space are able to establish systemic infection. For example, from this site polio and retroviruses enter intestinal neuronal cells and spread to the central nervous system. HIV, which we discuss in detail in Chapter 11, may use a similar route into the lymphoid tissue of the rectal mucosa, where it first encounters and infects macrophages.

Many of the most important enteric bacteria that cause infections in humans gain entry to the body through M cells. Invasion by this route delivers bacteria straight to the lymphoid system of the host. Depending on the pathogenicity of the organism and the strength of the host adaptive immune response, infections that breach the gut mucosa may be cleared with little tissue injury, cause a local inflammatory response, or invade the bloodstream or lymphatics and result in a systemic infection. Bacteria that specifically target M cells include Salmonella typhi, the causative agent of typhoid, and S. typhimurium, a major cause of bacterial food-poisoning. These bacteria cause a brisk local and systemic inflammatory response associated with the induction of T_H1-type T-cell responses and antibody responses of the IgG and IgA classes

[aguy30]

Why is it that the "know it all" poster are so quick to condemn Amor. ANY food establishment can have a problem on occasion. I am sure that the standards for quality at Amor are high and freshness is always maintained. The place is run by a professional. No establishment should be condemned on one, unproven incident. This topic reminds me of witch hunts. "She is a witch, she is a witch. Kill her!" What right do any of you have to destroy a restaurants reputation for your amusement?

The ONLY reason that I don't frequent Amor, is the menu is not very interesting to me. I would not let the rediculous responses on this topic stop me from returning.

Shame on all of those drawing negative conclusions without bothering to get the full itineraries of the original poster and the other diners. Where did they eat or drink before and after Amor. Did one of them get sick someplace else and infect the group? None of you know, but have rushed to judgement. What gives you the right to border on slander with unproven statements and accusations? I wish I had your insight to obtain all the right answers without knowing all the "facts". Ahh, the wisdom of internet forum responders.

[Jingthing]

aguy, you are correct, the implication against Amor is only circumstantial evidence and would not convict them in most courts of law. People can decide what to do with this information, circumstantial evidence of bad fish/seafood being served there and this reported group of people getting sick, themselves. It does sound like you are in favor of suppressing this information, info that people can process to decide for themselves, that is naughty of you, censorship is wrong.

We also agree that Amor serves a very boring menu, "professional" or not, whatever that is supposed to mean. BTW, you seem to have inside info on the kitchen practices there. Curious and defies credulity. In the US, restaurants that have good reputations fail their health department reports EVERYDAY, and their names are published in the press. A good thing because the public has a right to know.

So you see, brother forum poster, we are mostly on the same page! Disturbing?

One thing that is disturbing. This isn't about me, much as you want to make it about me. Its about a group of people getting ill after eating at the SAME restaurant.

BTW, I do think a decent "professional" restaurant would offer to pay the medical bills of a customer who accuses them of poisoning them so I am curious to hear if the OP approached the restaurant for satisfaction, and if not, why not?

Edited December 16, 2007 by Jingthing

[JohnC]

The correct way to address this problem IMHO would have been to go back to the restaurant and report the problem with medical evidence (if available) and give them the opportunity to investigate if they were the source and if is so to put the problem right. A similar incident occured in another well known restaurant on Jomtien Road earlier this year, in this instance the diners were refunded, all medical expenses were met and they were invited back for a free meal. The kitchen etc was blitzed and the staff reminded of strict hygene procedures. This is the way to go and not telling the restaurant and just posting about the incident is a trifle irresponsible.

[Jingthing]

JohnC, I think that sounds reasonable and I find the story itself a little odd in that it didn't mention that the restaurant was confronted with the information, so we are left to guess about both the motivations of the reporter and what the place would have done if confronted.

[aguy30]

Jingthing

I did not say or imply that anything should be repressed. I am saying that irresponsible "reporting and distorting reponses" are absolutely unacceptable. You are basing everything on a new topic, that is not supported by any facts or evidence. Who knows what the truth is? You and others are destroying the reputation of Amor for you own enjoyment. UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not agree that the restaurant should just pay for the hospital. It admits unproven guilt! There is only speculation and implied guilt. Where is the proof? One group of people getting sick does not prove they got sick at A PARTICULAR LOCATION. As I said b4, did they eat or drink at any common place b4 or after. Did one of them get sick and infect the other three. Perhaps the wife, who was very sick, ate from the same common plate as the others. Maybe she was already sick. YOU DON"T KNOW!!!! You are of the poster that has implied guilt without proof.

Facts (maybe):

1 Four people ate a restaurant.

2 Four people got sick, one seriously.

3 Four people ate seafood.

Unknown:

1 Did the 4 people eat from the SAME dishes or at least order the same dishes?

2 Was one of them sick already and then using their eating utensils in a common dish?

3 Did the 4 people eat or drink at any other common location?

4 Did any person, other than the 4 in the topic, get sick from eating at Amor?

5 Are there any other common factors in the previous 24 hours?

6 Does someone have a grudge with Amor?

7 Is the report even factual?

You don't know a lot more than what you do know. Be responsible in what you write and report.

[Jingthing]

The proof needed for monetary damages is often less than the proof needed for criminal charges or proof of absolute guilt. I agree the OP report sounds a little FISHY. The customers out there can decide. Sounds like you are on a personal crusade about this particular restaurant and overly worked up about it (WHY?????). I for one never said don't go there because of this charge. I did say don't go there because it is overpriced and underspiced, but clearly it has a market and no doubt will continue to have one.

Again, any decent professional restaurant would take such charges very seriously and in many cases offer monetary compensation, knowing it is just the right thing to do, and in most cases nobody will be 100 percent sure they are the cause of the illness. Circumstantial evidence is still evidence, just not great evidence.

In this case, IF the story is true, I do think there is strong circumstantial evidence that the Amor is the cause. Is the story true? Who knows? So take all of this with a grain of salt.

A suggestion aguy: your flaming passion about this issue mainly just serves to keep this topic active and on the top of the list. If you are so concerned about burying bad PR for Amor for reasons only known by you, you would be better served by keeping quiet. Then the subject will die.

Next ...

Edited December 16, 2007 by Jingthing

[aguy30]

I just don't think it is right to accuse and blame. I used to manage restaurants and I have not seen anything that convinces me that there is any proof that Amor made them sick. This reads as if the restaurant is bad. Everything is based on an anonymous topic. I just don't think it is right for forum responders to be judge and jury, while not being held accountable for their anonymous actions. There are too many self proclaimed experts on most forums. Bad, wrong and malicious info is everywhere. Hard to discern the crap from the truth sometimes. Readers have a strong tendency to believe what they read and not consider the facts. If you say something enough times. it is often believed.

Jingthing has found Amor guilty and sentenced them to make restitution. I think he is wrong to even imply that they should pay, based on what is known. It is about ADMITTING GUILT and then paying for it. Wrong!!!!!!!

[Jingthing]

aguy, let me make my concluding statements on this:

-- You make a great case for reading info on internet forums with a large dose of healthy skepticism. I agree 100 percent.

-- You make a good case to assert that there is no real evidence given here that the OP's complaint is a truthful one, and it would be unfair for people to avoid this restaurant based on this one report.

-- You make a bad case that we don't have the right to talk about public businesses serving food to the public for money. That might be what restaurant owners would like, but it is an unreasonable expectation. (BTW, we also have the right to say the food is crap and priced too high as well if that is what we think.)

-- You make a bad case that a decent restaurant would not usually just pay the bills to the victims of complaints like the OPs, assuming this really happened as described. Paying bills does not admit guilt. It admits the circumstances point to POSSIBLE guilt, and it is a public relations gesture that would usually be worth the money to most DECENT restaurants.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Jingthing

[aguy30]

-- You make a bad case that we don't have the right to talk about public businesses serving food to the public for money. That might be what restaurant owners would like, but it is an unreasonable expectation. (BTW, we also have the right to say the food is crap and priced too high as well if that is what we think.)

I agree that public businesses (of any type) are fair game for topics of discussion > I JUST DON'T THINK THAT CRITERIA EXACTLY APPLIES TO THIS TOPIC. I think Amor has been nearly slandered by inconsiderate responders. We are not talking about his menu or prices. That would be a different topic. We are talking about people getting sick and there is no real evidence that they got the problem at Amor. Only indication, accusation and supposition. It is absolutely not the same as a subjective opinion about taste, menu or price.

-- You make a bad case that a decent restaurant would not usually just pay the bills to the victims of complaints like the OPs, assuming this really happened as described. Paying bills does not admit guilt. It admits the circumstances point to POSSIBLE guilt, and it is a public relations gesture that would usually be worth the money to most DECENT restaurants.

No one evens knows if the 4 people got sick at Amor. I think it is absolutely admitting guilt by paying the hospital. If they did pay, the next topic might be: Amor paid doctor bills for people that got food poison from eating there! I would feel different if there were other people with a confirmed case. I think you are wrong!

Edited December 16, 2007 by aguy30

[Jingthing]

Fair enough, aguy. I am not the bad guy here. Let the public decide how they want to respond. We have the right to patronize or not patronize any business we like for any reason, rational or not. Businesses have no inherent right to survive and prosper.

I said I was finished but sorry have to respond one more time: It would be WORSE if it was reported that people legitimately thought they got sick at Amor and Amor did NOT pay. Both cases are bad, but I think not paying is worse.

I have an example of this in my own life. I ate for the first time at a certain Mexican restaurant and I ended up in the hospital ER. Both the ER doctor and I came to the REASONABLE and PROBABLY CORRECT conclusion that my severe allergic reaction was to something I ate at that specific Mexican restaurant. There was no reason to go after the restaurant for expenses, because they are not responsible for my allergies, but serving food poison is another matter. Needless to say, I never went back to that specific Mexican restaurant.

The bigger issue here is whether or not the OP was being truthful; it was his first and only post.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Jingthing

[sloopy]

Well put guys. (I assume you’re both guys). But isn’t this type of interaction is what forums are all about. Well, the thread certainly had me spell bound.

And if anyone goes to the said restaurant again, don’t forget to try the French opinion soup and the roast chicken special on Thursdays is not too bad either.

PS: Thank god I'm alergic to "fish" .

Edited December 16, 2007 by sloopy