Amor Restaurant

[wilko]

won't go into why street vendors food is relatively safe ....again....the logic is there for those who look.

BUT

I'm no immunologist however it occurs to me that most food poisoning is a bacterial infection.

compare this with other bacterial infections....how many people would suggest that because they have had many STDs, they are now immune?

You can't be immune to syphilis and gonorrhea and the lesser diseases....so ask yourself why should you be "immune" to food poisoning - salmonella etc???

Here you go

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?...ction.1213#1225

"Antibodies can block the adherence of bacteria to host cells.

Many bacteria have cell-surface molecules called adhesins that enable them to bind to the surface of host cells. This adherence is critical to the ability of these bacteria to cause disease, whether they subsequently enter the cell, as do some pathogens such as Salmonella species, or remain attached to the cell surface as extracellular pathogens (Fig. 9.26). Neisseria gonorrhoeae, the causative agent of the sexually transmitted disease gonorrhea, has a cellsurface protein known as pilin. Pilin enables the bacterium to adhere to the epithelial cells of the urinary and reproductive tracts and is essential to its infectivity. Antibodies against pilin can inhibit this adhesive reaction and prevent infection.

IgA antibodies secreted onto the mucosal surfaces of the intestinal, respiratory, and reproductive tracts are particularly important in preventing infection by preventing the adhesion of bacteria, viruses, or other pathogens to the epithelial cells lining these surfaces. The adhesion of bacteria to cells within tissues can also contribute to pathogenesis, and IgG antibodies against adhesins can protect from damage much as IgA antibodies protect at mucosal surfaces"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?...ction.1355#1366

"10-18. Enteric pathogens cause a local inflammatory response and the development of protective immunity.

In spite of the array of innate immune mechanisms in the gut and stiff competition from the indigenous flora, the gut is a frequent site of infection by pathogenic microorganisms. These include many species of viruses, enteric pathogenic bacteria including Salmonella, Yersinia, Shigella, and Listeria, and protozoa such as Entamoeba histolytica and Cryptosporidium. These organisms cause disease in many different ways, but there are certain common features of infection that are crucial to understanding how these pathogens stimulate an immune response by the host, in contrast to the immunological tolerance shown to the foreign antigens ingested in food.

The most important consequence of infection in the gut, as elsewhere in the body, is the development of an inflammatory response. The release of cytokines and chemokines in this response is key to the induction of an adaptive immune response. The inflammatory mediators stimulate the maturation of dendritic cells and other antigen-presenting cells, so that they express the co-stimulatory molecules that provide the additional signals for activation and expansion of naive lymphocytes.

Some intestinal pathogens infect enterocytes, the absorptive cells that line much of the intestine. Enterocytes do not act as passive victims of infection but signal infection by releasing cytokines and chemokines. These include the chemokine IL-8, which is a potent neutrophil chemoattractant, and CC chemokines such as MCP-1, MIP-1α and β, and RANTES, which are chemoattractants for monocytes, eosinophils, and T lymphocytes (see Fig. 2.33). In this way, the onset of infection triggers an influx of inflammatory cells and lymphocytes, leading to the induction of an immune response to the antigens of the infectious agent. Injury and stress to the enterocytes lining the gut may also stimulate the expression of nonclassical MHC molecules, such as MIC-A and MIC-B (see Section 10-14). These act as ligands to the receptors on γ:δ T cells at the base of the crypts, which kill the infected mucosal cell, thereby promoting repair and recovery of the injured mucosa.

A number of pathogens directly exploit the M cell as a means of invasion. Some viruses are transported through the M cell by transcytosis and from the subepithelial space are able to establish systemic infection. For example, from this site polio and retroviruses enter intestinal neuronal cells and spread to the central nervous system. HIV, which we discuss in detail in Chapter 11, may use a similar route into the lymphoid tissue of the rectal mucosa, where it first encounters and infects macrophages.

Many of the most important enteric bacteria that cause infections in humans gain entry to the body through M cells. Invasion by this route delivers bacteria straight to the lymphoid system of the host. Depending on the pathogenicity of the organism and the strength of the host adaptive immune response, infections that breach the gut mucosa may be cleared with little tissue injury, cause a local inflammatory response, or invade the bloodstream or lymphatics and result in a systemic infection. Bacteria that specifically target M cells include Salmonella typhi, the causative agent of typhoid, and S. typhimurium, a major cause of bacterial food-poisoning. These bacteria cause a brisk local and systemic inflammatory response associated with the induction of T_H1-type T-cell responses and antibody responses of the IgG and IgA classes

As I read that (first glance) it really underlines the point that apart from minor aliments most bacteria such as Salmonella cannot be immunised against as for the large part these bacteria are able to avoid the immune system's defences.

[Prakanong]

won't go into why street vendors food is relatively safe ....again....the logic is there for those who look.

BUT

I'm no immunologist however it occurs to me that most food poisoning is a bacterial infection.

compare this with other bacterial infections....how many people would suggest that because they have had many STDs, they are now immune?

You can't be immune to syphilis and gonorrhea and the lesser diseases....so ask yourself why should you be "immune" to food poisoning - salmonella etc???

Here you go

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?...ction.1213#1225

"Antibodies can block the adherence of bacteria to host cells.

Many bacteria have cell-surface molecules called adhesins that enable them to bind to the surface of host cells. This adherence is critical to the ability of these bacteria to cause disease, whether they subsequently enter the cell, as do some pathogens such as Salmonella species, or remain attached to the cell surface as extracellular pathogens (Fig. 9.26). Neisseria gonorrhoeae, the causative agent of the sexually transmitted disease gonorrhea, has a cellsurface protein known as pilin. Pilin enables the bacterium to adhere to the epithelial cells of the urinary and reproductive tracts and is essential to its infectivity. Antibodies against pilin can inhibit this adhesive reaction and prevent infection.

IgA antibodies secreted onto the mucosal surfaces of the intestinal, respiratory, and reproductive tracts are particularly important in preventing infection by preventing the adhesion of bacteria, viruses, or other pathogens to the epithelial cells lining these surfaces. The adhesion of bacteria to cells within tissues can also contribute to pathogenesis, and IgG antibodies against adhesins can protect from damage much as IgA antibodies protect at mucosal surfaces"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?...ction.1355#1366

"10-18. Enteric pathogens cause a local inflammatory response and the development of protective immunity.

In spite of the array of innate immune mechanisms in the gut and stiff competition from the indigenous flora, the gut is a frequent site of infection by pathogenic microorganisms. These include many species of viruses, enteric pathogenic bacteria including Salmonella, Yersinia, Shigella, and Listeria, and protozoa such as Entamoeba histolytica and Cryptosporidium. These organisms cause disease in many different ways, but there are certain common features of infection that are crucial to understanding how these pathogens stimulate an immune response by the host, in contrast to the immunological tolerance shown to the foreign antigens ingested in food.

The most important consequence of infection in the gut, as elsewhere in the body, is the development of an inflammatory response. The release of cytokines and chemokines in this response is key to the induction of an adaptive immune response. The inflammatory mediators stimulate the maturation of dendritic cells and other antigen-presenting cells, so that they express the co-stimulatory molecules that provide the additional signals for activation and expansion of naive lymphocytes.

Some intestinal pathogens infect enterocytes, the absorptive cells that line much of the intestine. Enterocytes do not act as passive victims of infection but signal infection by releasing cytokines and chemokines. These include the chemokine IL-8, which is a potent neutrophil chemoattractant, and CC chemokines such as MCP-1, MIP-1α and β, and RANTES, which are chemoattractants for monocytes, eosinophils, and T lymphocytes (see Fig. 2.33). In this way, the onset of infection triggers an influx of inflammatory cells and lymphocytes, leading to the induction of an immune response to the antigens of the infectious agent. Injury and stress to the enterocytes lining the gut may also stimulate the expression of nonclassical MHC molecules, such as MIC-A and MIC-B (see <A href=" target=_blank>Section 10-14). These act as ligands to the receptors on γ:δ T cells at the base of the crypts, which kill the infected mucosal cell, thereby promoting repair and recovery of the injured mucosa.

A number of pathogens directly exploit the M cell as a means of invasion. Some viruses are transported through the M cell by transcytosis and from the subepithelial space are able to establish systemic infection. For example, from this site polio and retroviruses enter intestinal neuronal cells and spread to the central nervous system. HIV, which we discuss in detail in <A href="http://" target=_blank>Chapter 11, may use a similar route into the lymphoid tissue of the rectal mucosa, where it first encounters and infects macrophages.

Many of the most important enteric bacteria that cause infections in humans gain entry to the body through M cells. Invasion by this route delivers bacteria straight to the lymphoid system of the host. Depending on the pathogenicity of the organism and the strength of the host adaptive immune response, infections that breach the gut mucosa may be cleared with little tissue injury, cause a local inflammatory response, or invade the bloodstream or lymphatics and result in a systemic infection. Bacteria that specifically target M cells include Salmonella typhi, the causative agent of typhoid, and S. typhimurium, a major cause of bacterial food-poisoning. These bacteria cause a brisk local and systemic inflammatory response associated with the induction of T_H1-type T-cell responses and antibody responses of the IgG and IgA classes

As I read that (first glance) it really underlines the point that apart from minor aliments most bacteria such as Salmonella cannot be immunised against as for the large part these bacteria are able to avoid the immune system's defences.

I just spoke to my pal about this - a Dr who is quite senior and a researcher into therapeutic cancer vaccines ie immunilogy responses and he had this to say.

Salmonella and say e-Coli can not be immunised against - yes you are correct and it can be suffered numerous times by the same patient

However, there are other bacteria that a local or long term visitor might develop some kind of immunity to. This goes both ways - a visitor to Europe from Thailand may suffer the same as a visitor to thailand fro Europe.

Gut enzymes are another classic and the most famous is the Asians intolerance to lactose (becoming much less frequent now).

My pal just mentioned this in passing last week that he had problems with "Mediterraenian" (sp_ food as he put it recently in Argentina and Brazil - he is Burmese!

It then got all complicated and I was lost and just smiled, nodded and hoped our Christmas Buffet lunch at Raffles in to hours does not get us

[wilko]

Amor - allegedly - the evidence...

this being a web site all sorts of stuff is put forward and lets face it substatiation to academic standards is usually impossible and also rather lenghty and boring....

BUT...what has actually been said about the Amor?

Last week I went to this restaurant with my wife and her brother and his boyfriend. The service was good but the next morning we all suffered very bad food poisoning and my wife spent 3 nights in hospital.

It seems there was something wrong with the fish as we all had seafood.

Have other members suffered at this place recently?

This is a posting not hard evidence but let us just assume that the events actually happened (and this isn't a grudge thing)

3 people become ill at the same time....presumably not coincidence....

we don't know for sure that they all had the same dish or that they drank out of the same water vessel.

we don't know that they haven't been eating/drinking together before in the last few days.

We don't know for sure that it was food poisoning or some gastric flu virus they could have caught anywhere.

whereas the story makes a convincing argument there are just too many if and buts in the story itself - has the OP ever posted again.

How was the sea-food served and what did they have? For them all to have the same illness they have to have a common infection and unless they all ate out of the same bowl (possible) this seems unlikely.

One wonders if they haven't shared something else - e.g. - - sharing ice in a drink somewhere.

In many incidents like this, blaming the last meal you had does not take into account the amount of time it takes for the toxins to take hold and make their effect felt

[tropo]

-- You make a bad case that a decent restaurant would not usually just pay the bills to the victims of complaints like the OPs, assuming this really happened as described. Paying bills does not admit guilt. It admits the circumstances point to POSSIBLE guilt, and it is a public relations gesture that would usually be worth the money to most DECENT restaurants.

You made a very good point here. The smart money keeps bad publicity under wraps even if it may not be factual.

The general public would tend to believe that this restaurant is responsible for the food poisoning given the circumstantial evidence here, and that's all that counts.

[Mobi]

Maybe the fair thing to do would be for some kind person to print off a copy of this thread and give it to the owner of Amor, maybe with the suggestion that he join T Visa, and exercise his right of reply.

If he is half way smart he could the assure all and sundry that he has carried out a thorough inspection and cleaning of his facilities, and whether or not his place caused the problem, he would make every effort that none of his customers would have reason to complain in the future.

That should put an end to it, and I for one would be willing to give it a try.

Edited December 17, 2007 by Mobi

[Jingthing]

Of course, if it was bad fish, all the cleaning in the world wouldn't have prevented it. This kind of thing can happen to the best of restaurants, which is not the same thing as saying the Amor is the best of restaurants ...

Another point if the OP did not directly confront the restaurant, I think that lowers the credibility of their initial report. So it would be a good idea for the owner to post and say this very thing, no actual person actually complained, if that is indeed the case.

Being fair to both the owner and the possible (and possibly fictional?) victims is a good thing all around. If the Amor name has been trashed without cause, maybe this will ultimately be good publicity and might draw some sympathy custom and the onion soup and roast chicken do sound pretty good.

Edited December 17, 2007 by Jingthing

[wilko]

HAS the OP made another posting after the initial one?

[Jingthing]

HAS the OP made another posting after the initial one?

No, first and ONLY post. Fishy, huh?

[wilko]

maybe he's had a rethink

[tropo]

maybe he's had a rethink

Maybe he's too sick to post. Perhaps he didn't make it.

[Jingthing]

maybe he's had a rethink

Maybe he's too sick to post. Perhaps he didn't make it.

Or perhaps a bitchy queen who has a grudge against the owner?

[stevepattaya]

Well having read this thread with some interest - Myself and my partner ran a restaurant for many years in the UK, and the whole business was strictly accountable under the Food and Hygeine regulations from food arriving, storage, preperation and disposal .... and ALL staff had mandatory training. From such training it is obvious that this event at Amor simply doesn't have enough evidence to condemn or condone its practices - the onset of food poisoning can be from a few minutes up to several days depending on the type of infection. A 12 hour delay would put it in the realms of a possible and common Salmonella infection, but equally possible it could have been the previous days lunch, snack or breakfast ... or even poor personal hygeine on behalf of the group involved. Only a lab test to identify the TYPE of infection and so the incubation period would help pinpoint the source. More alarmingly the owner SHOULD have been notified URGENTLY - NOT justto seek compensation but so that he can take precautions and prevent further contamination IF the source was his restaurant. In the UK the supply chain could be followed to try identify the suspected source but of course that would be simply impossible here (I suspect). Whilst making no excuse even the cleanest and well run kitchens simply don't know if ANY food source has been contaminated prior to delivery. Finally ANY respectable restaurant owner would make reparations in the unfortunate event of someone contracting food poisoning at their premises, as I would expect the owner of Amor would do if it looked like his establishment was at fault..

[tropo]

A 12 hour delay would put it in the realms of a possible and common Salmonella infection, but equally possible it could have been the previous days lunch, snack or breakfast ... or even poor personal hygeine on behalf of the group involved. Only a lab test to identify the TYPE of infection and so the incubation period would help pinpoint the source. More alarmingly the owner SHOULD have been notified URGENTLY - NOT justto seek compensation but so that he can take precautions and prevent further contamination IF the source was his restaurant. In the UK the supply chain could be followed to try identify the suspected source but of course that would be simply impossible here (I suspect). Whilst making no excuse even the cleanest and well run kitchens simply don't know if ANY food source has been contaminated prior to delivery. Finally ANY respectable restaurant owner would make reparations in the unfortunate event of someone contracting food poisoning at their premises, as I would expect the owner of Amor would do if it looked like his establishment was at fault..

Toxin-mediated food poisoning can manifest itself within 1 or 2 hours. Toxin-mediated food poisoning is caused by the toxins that bacteria release rather than the bacteria themselves.

This type of food poisoning is more severe (and dramatic) and easier to trace to a particular meal.

Staphylococcus Aureus has a very fast incubation rate and a person can feel ill within 2 to 4 hours.

Edited December 19, 2007 by tropo

[wilko]

Well having read this thread with some interest - Myself and my partner ran a restaurant for many years in the UK, and the whole business was strictly accountable under the Food and Hygeine regulations from food arriving, storage, preperation and disposal .... and ALL staff had mandatory training. From such training it is obvious that this event at Amor simply doesn't have enough evidence to condemn or condone its practices - the onset of food poisoning can be from a few minutes up to several days depending on the type of infection. A 12 hour delay would put it in the realms of a possible and common Salmonella infection, but equally possible it could have been the previous days lunch, snack or breakfast ... or even poor personal hygeine on behalf of the group involved. Only a lab test to identify the TYPE of infection and so the incubation period would help pinpoint the source. More alarmingly the owner SHOULD have been notified URGENTLY - NOT justto seek compensation but so that he can take precautions and prevent further contamination IF the source was his restaurant. In the UK the supply chain could be followed to try identify the suspected source but of course that would be simply impossible here (I suspect). Whilst making no excuse even the cleanest and well run kitchens simply don't know if ANY food source has been contaminated prior to delivery. Finally ANY respectable restaurant owner would make reparations in the unfortunate event of someone contracting food poisoning at their premises, as I would expect the owner of Amor would do if it looked like his establishment was at fault..

Hear! Hear!

[wilko]

A 12 hour delay would put it in the realms of a possible and common Salmonella infection, but equally possible it could have been the previous days lunch, snack or breakfast ... or even poor personal hygeine on behalf of the group involved. Only a lab test to identify the TYPE of infection and so the incubation period would help pinpoint the source. More alarmingly the owner SHOULD have been notified URGENTLY - NOT justto seek compensation but so that he can take precautions and prevent further contamination IF the source was his restaurant. In the UK the supply chain could be followed to try identify the suspected source but of course that would be simply impossible here (I suspect). Whilst making no excuse even the cleanest and well run kitchens simply don't know if ANY food source has been contaminated prior to delivery. Finally ANY respectable restaurant owner would make reparations in the unfortunate event of someone contracting food poisoning at their premises, as I would expect the owner of Amor would do if it looked like his establishment was at fault..

Toxin-mediated food poisoning can manifest itself within 1 or 2 hours. Toxin-mediated food poisoning is caused by the toxins that bacteria release rather than the bacteria themselves.

This type of food poisoning is more severe (and dramatic) and easier to trace to a particular meal.

Staphylococcus Aureus has a very fast incubation rate and a person can feel ill within 2 to 4 hours.

So anytime from a few hours to over a week.....then look at everything you and your friends have eaten together and try to find any common factors.

[aguy30]

This whole topic has given me severe diarrhea from reading the input from responders. Who do I make a claim to?

[Jingthing]

This whole topic has given me severe diarrhea from reading the input from responders. Who do I make a claim to?

The Amor Restaurant, heart of Boyztown.

Next ...

[wilko]

"One thing that is disturbing. This isn't about me, much as you want to make it about me. Its about a group of people getting ill after eating at the SAME restaurant."

....and we STILL don't know if that is the ONLY place they ate, drank or otherwise communed........

[merlin666]

Sorry it has taken so long to update the situation since my original posting as I been travelling extensively and have been very busy.

To try to cut a long story short the medical report and other documents, statements etc were put in the hands of a firm of Bangkok Thai lawyers and representartions made to the restaurant concerned. I also understand that our lawyers have also been in contact with the local health inspectorate who apparently have had numerous other complaints about the establishment concerned. The problem seems to be that the kitchen and toilet ares in the premises are too close together.

I will say no more as I hope an amicable financial settlement will be agreed soon at which time I will post it here.

[morejunk]

YAWN! Sounds like a set up to defame and rip off the restaurant. You weren't too busy to get to a lawyer. People who rush to file law suits suck.

[wcr]

YAWN! Sounds like a set up to defame and rip off the restaurant. You weren't too busy to get to a lawyer. People who rush to file law suits suck.

Agreed. Why contact lawyers? Surely it is a more polite thing to firstly contact the owner and give him chance to make things right? If you get no joy there, then go down the lawyer route.

I hope that the lawyers take your money (which they are very good at doing) and you get no satisfaction.