Thailand Needs Residency Reform

[LivinLOS]

This is the high season, XMAS. It doesn't get any higher than this. However, when I walk around and speak to the local Thai business owners, shop keepers, hotels, guest houses, coffee shops, internet bars, malls, beer bars, laundries, restaurants, and other types of businesses, they all seem to be crying and complaining to me that they don't have any customers in the high, peak season. They are very worried about the upcoming low season and fear that their businesses will simply collapse. So, the party may be over for many farangs, Chinese, Japanese, Germans, Canadians, Brits, and others, but the show must go on for the local Thais. Let them sort things out and eventually, they will make the necessary changes to the system or they will suffer the long term consequences. Think about it....if you are a farang or foreigner from some other planet and must leave the Kingdom because you cannot get a Visa, then you can go to Vietnam or Cambodia to continue your long term holiday......but if you are a local Thai business owner, you have to wake up every morning in the high season and wonder about why the leaders changed the rules and tossed all of the tourists and long stay folks out.

Your not wrong here...

A mate talked about his taking for Nov which were 40% !! approx of last years takings... At the same time key money has risen 50 - 100% in last couple of years..

Though personally I think thats the changing demographic of the town I live in, more couples, more females, less single drinking males.

[jazzbo]

So this is what I suggest for the OP's friend or persons in a similar situation i.e. having significant financial resources but unable to qualify for an extension of Visa based on retirement:

Find some upstanding Thai citizen (Lawyer, accountant, official, etc.) who is willing to write a Sponsorship Letter for you saying that you intend to use your Non-Imm Visa to research NGO's in the Kingdom to which you might lend financial assistance. This would be as a donor -- not a Volunteer position. I can't tell you how many times a Thai Citizen has remarked to me "Oh! You mean you actually DO something to help the Thai people while you are here in Thailand..." as if they've never heard of such a notion.

Who knows -- this might even start a new trend: Wealthy foreigners who wish to remain in the Kingdom and are willing to spend at least some of their time and their financial largesse practicing one of the High Virtues in a Buddhist Society: Compassion... After that, then go off and have your fun.

For a second year, the Letter might state that the sponsored person actually has made such contributions... The Honorary Consuls, again, have wide discretion in granting Visas--sometimes they just like a good story. This is a list from Wikipedia of NGO's in Thailand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_non-g...ons_in_Thailand

BTW I first met the gentleman who wrote my Sponsorship Letter while having breakfast at a morning market.

[LivinLOS]

So this is what I suggest for the OP's friend or persons in a similar situation i.e. having significant financial resources but unable to qualify for an extension of Visa based on retirement:

Find some upstanding Thai citizen (Lawyer, accountant, official, etc.) who is willing to write a Sponsorship Letter for you saying that you intend to use your Non-Imm Visa to research NGO's in the Kingdom to which you might lend financial assistance. This would be as a donor -- not a Volunteer position. I can't tell you how many times a Thai Citizen has remarked to me "Oh! You mean you actually DO something to help the Thai people while you are here in Thailand..." as if they've never heard of such a notion.

Who knows -- this might even start a new trend: Wealthy foreigners who wish to remain in the Kingdom and are willing to spend at least some of their time and their financial largesse practicing one of the High Virtues in a Buddhist Society: Compassion... After that, then go off and have your fun.

For a second year, the Letter might state that the sponsored person actually has made such contributions... The Honorary Consuls, again, have wide discretion in granting Visas--sometimes they just like a good story. This is a list from Wikipedia of NGO's in Thailand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_non-g...ons_in_Thailand

BTW I first met the gentleman who wrote my Sponsorship Letter while having breakfast at a morning market.

Interesting suggestion.. I didnt realize there was as much discretion available.

Also it does fire off one 'when pigs fly' thought.. Imagine the possibility of a 'Charitable donators visa'.. Lets dream for a second and imagine that someone in the system was enlightened enough to attempt that. That any foreigner could get a proper 1 year long stay visa, hopefully with the route into PR also, by donating a minimum fixed sum annually. hel_l maybe you could make the PR requirement about a higher level of donation or about being more physically committed to the project your supporting.

Not only would I be more than happy to pay 100k a year for the visa rights, imagine the perception that this would create, 100s of 1000's of nahm jai farangs, directly supporting the schools, orphanages, childrens charities, HIV hospicies, water projects, etc etc. These things so badly needed and so badly underfunded. Imagine the perception this could do for us as a group here within Thailand, the ability to actually give into our communities and get something in return also, a very fair trade off.

Of course I already can see a minefield of corruption and scams sadly from both sides of the cultural divide.. But it would be worth a shot.

[jazzbo]

I made this suggestion on a "one-on-one" basis. You will find Thai citizens of substance very unwilling to go on record and write such a Sponsorship Letter if they doubt your sincerity. There are many Thai NGO's under Royal Patronage and otherwise whose veracity you need not question. I received such Non-Imm 'B' Visas in 2004 and 2005. I believe I read here on this Forum of one being issued last summer based on Sposorship. Again, I am only suggesting an approach to Thai Visa/Immigration law as it is today.

[jonniebkk]

I made this suggestion on a "one-on-one" basis. You will find Thai citizens of substance very unwilling to go on record and write such a Sponsorship Letter if they doubt your sincerity. There are many Thai NGO's under Royal Patronage and otherwise whose veracity you need not question. I received such Non-Imm 'B' Visas in 2004 and 2005. I believe I read here on this Forum of one being issued last summer based on Sposorship. Again, I am only suggesting an approach to Thai Visa/Immigration law as it is today.

Jazzbo...your suggestion is an interesting one and may be appropriate for some people. Those who have the skills, time, and resources to engage in NGO type work or consulting might wish to hook-up with a Thai organization and in this way, get his visa issues sorted in the process.

As an aside, you may not agree with this reasoneing, but many expatriates who reside in Thailand feel that by their very presence they are helping to support the Thai economy and society to one degree or another. The spending power of the average foreigner being much higher than the average Thai. Therefore, no further "charity" should be needed for the right to reside in the Kingdom. From the moment we awake in the morning to the time we fall asleep, we are adding money to the Thai economy (and paying VAT taxes along the way). In the case of "retired" folks, it is all "new" money too. That is, it is all brought in from abroad and put into circulation in Thailand. Any economist will tell you that this is the best type of spending as it adds truly new money into circulation in the economy and not just re-circulating money that is already present.

Many of us also employ Thais in domestic capacities so in that sense, we are also little businesses too. I guess the thing to do in that case would be to form a company and funnel their wages and benefits through the company and therefore maybe quality for a non-imm B visa. In any case, thanks for everyone's feedback. For my friend, considering his lifestyle, the Thai Elite program might fit his needs best.

[naka]

Jonnie, My comment was indeed, tongue in cheek ... I can often not understand some of Thailand's rules and regulations,

although I do see their reasoning in trying to keep out poor underfunded farangs and criminals on the lam.

Most of the world's first world countries, and many others welcome affluent visitors with open arms ... and why not ?

Sadly some countries have not well understood this potential revenue stream !

Oh ! and then there is the "Fear Factor" Thailand even seems to fear Lil ol Singapore !

Naka.

Edited December 15, 2007 by naka

[lopburi3]

no further "charity" should be needed for the right to reside in the Kingdom.

Perhaps when our home countries adopt that "right to reside" policy Thailand will do the same?

[jonniebkk]

no further "charity" should be needed for the right to reside in the Kingdom.

Perhaps when our home countries adopt that "right to reside" policy Thailand will do the same?

Lop...one can always bring up the "reciprocity" argument. I don't know the visa rules and regs of the USA as it pertains to wealthy foreigners "residing" in USA. They must not be too onerous, however, as from what I am reading daily, many Continentals with their strong euros are snapping-up expensive co-ops in Manhattan and villas in Miami like they were a snip. The last I heard, Mr. T and his extended family were still residing in a swank estate in England and last I checked, he was still a Thai citizen and had not been granted UK citizenship yet. So apparently, it is not too hard for rich Thais to reside in at least some of our homeland countries.

But getting back to the real world, there is not going to be reciprocity in immigration/residency rules for economic reasons. This is the same for tourist entries and also the desparity operates with residency as well. In the example I brought up, it is Thailand that is losing out. My friend has a pain-in-the-arse issue to sort out but he has plenty of other options.

[jazzbo]

I never looked at it as 'charity'. I used to refer to it as my 'Humanitarian' Visa because it makes you a better person to have done something as a guest in the Kingdom. Adding dollars to the economy is fine but it takes no effort. Doing as I described DOES take some effort and that is the point everybody will recognize... and you can maybe get a Non-Imm Visa out of it to boot.

[LivinLOS]

no further "charity" should be needed for the right to reside in the Kingdom.

Perhaps when our home countries adopt that "right to reside" policy Thailand will do the same?

I think most / many of them do so..

If you have say 10x the average national annual income theres usually a system of visa arranged.. And that visa usually comes with the right to stay, the right to eventually get citizenship, the right to own land, and the right to use public facilites, etc etc.

I have heard of these kind of 'investor visa' processes for the USA and NZ etc.

[lopburi3]

This is not that kind of a case - the person has not offered to invest anything but this poster appears to feel that it is his right to live anywhere. At least that is how it reads to me. And I do not agree with the below and hope that "many expatriates" do not feel this way. The word arrogance comes to mind.

As an aside, you may not agree with this reasoneing, but many expatriates who reside in Thailand feel that by their very presence they are helping to support the Thai economy and society to one degree or another. The spending power of the average foreigner being much higher than the average Thai. Therefore, no further "charity" should be needed for the right to reside in the Kingdom

[LivinLOS]

This is not that kind of a case - the person has not offered to invest anything but this poster appears to feel that it is his right to live anywhere. At least that is how it reads to me. And I do not agree with the below and hope that "many expatriates" do not feel this way. The word arrogance comes to mind.

As an aside, you may not agree with this reasoneing, but many expatriates who reside in Thailand feel that by their very presence they are helping to support the Thai economy and society to one degree or another. The spending power of the average foreigner being much higher than the average Thai. Therefore, no further "charity" should be needed for the right to reside in the Kingdom

Well I would say that linking expat spending to the term charity is almost distasteful and think it oversteps the mark, however most countries do roll out the red carpet for high net worth individuals simply based on the amount they spend.

Basically high net worth foreigners bring in direct foriegn exchange, its much better for an economy to get this kind of direct input than simply person to person transactions within the economy. Someone importing 200k baht a month and pumping it into the local economy where it stays does an awful lot for the area. Thats a fact.

[stevemiddie]

As an aside, you may not agree with this reasoneing, but many expatriates who reside in Thailand feel that by their very presence they are helping to support the Thai economy and society to one degree or another. In the case of "retired" folks, it is all "new" money too. That is, it is all brought in from abroad and put into circulation in Thailand.

Any economist will tell you that this is the best type of spending as it adds truly new money into circulation in the economy and not just re-circulating money that is already present.

Which economists are you quoting please? I would be interested in this as I studied Economics and 3rd World Politics at Manchester University. ( ranked no. 30 in the world recently )

Here is me thinking that any economist will tell you that the best form of help for poorer countries is in direct investment in the infrastructure, training, education, manufacturing and job creation.

Maybe your friend spends so much money here that Thailand should be GRATEFUL.

I don,t know of ANY expats who arrogantly feel their very presence is helping the Thai economy.

To be perfectly honest...........you come across as a bit of a ...... ( I can,t say it )

Edited December 15, 2007 by stevemiddie

[LivinLOS]

I don,t know of ANY expats who arrogantly feel their very presence is helping the Thai economy.

Well believe me there are many !!

And sadly.. even though this is phrased in the most arrogant of tones and terms, and I wouldnt wish to say it so blatantly, I believe it too.

My presence in Thailand is beneficial for the Thai economy. There I said it !!

Why are tourists good for the Thai economy and yet high net worth long stay visitors not ?? Surely tourism is an important and financially beneficial section of the economy ??

As someone who studies at such an excellent school for those subjects I find it hard to imagine how you could not agree.

[Naam]

I don,t know of ANY expats who arrogantly feel their very presence is helping the Thai economy.

finally a statement to my liking especially by an expert who studied "Economics and 3rd World Politics at Manchester University".

he will agree with me (others don't believe) :

-that the salaries i pay our three employees go straight by wire transfer to Papua New Guinea on payday and invested there in stocks as well as financing the family head hunter,

-that none of the things we buy in Thailand were produced in Thailand but imported from Waziristan,

-that haircuts, manicure and pedicure are never carried out by Thais but by illegals from Cambodia and Laos,

-that non of us expatriates ever built any house or bought a condo but we imported them from our home countries and our flown-in country fellows reassembled them in Thailand because our trade unions would not allow Thais do do that work,

-if we have electrical or plumbing problems we always call the experts from abroad as we learned from dozens of threads in ThaiVisa that Thailand has no qualified craftsmen who could do the job...

the list is endless, shall i gone my learned Economist and Third World Politician friend from Manchester?

:D

[jumnien]

Why would condo owners get visas? You think a Mexican can just buy a cheap condo in LA or London and move there legally? Why here in Thailand?

[LivinLOS]

Why would condo owners get visas? You think a Mexican can just buy a cheap condo in LA or London and move there legally? Why here in Thailand?

Actually if a mexican invests a large amount of cash into the US there is a special investor visa for him.. I cant remember the numbers but I remember being surprised how low it actually was.. 200k USD or similar.. Not much at all.

So if a mexican with a discretionary spending budget of 10 or so times the national average wage, wishes to invest in US property (which he could actually own I might add) then yes they would probably get a visa.. Which would then lead to citizenship etc etc etc

Edited December 15, 2007 by LivinLOS

[jumnien]

The bottom line is that those of us who are enjoying living here in Thailand over the last ten years are seeing the country being inundated by foreigners with mostly negative effects. The last thing we want to see is a relaxation in visa requirements. It might make a few Thais richer, but would lower the quality of life for us farang, for sure!

[Naam]

Actually if a mexican invests a large amount of cash into the US there is a special investor visa for him.. I cant remember the numbers but I remember being surprised how low it actually was.. 200k USD or similar.. Not much at all.

not much? a U.S. investor visa for ALL nationalities is since several years ONE MILLION US DOLLARS in areas with unemployment above national average and TWO MILLION US DOLLARS in areas with unemployment equal to or below national average. buying property does not count! a feasibility study (forming a NEW company) has to be submitted and approved.

[LivinLOS]

Strange I really seem to remember that there was a 200k investor class.. I also heard that there was a 500k USD green card process that gets your whole family a long stay option AND the money is invested and hence returned !! not sold in a one time deal a la the Elite.. So what is 500k in relation to US pre tax income.. Extrapolate that to Thai incomes and pop a number..

I know a few people who have gained green cards.. But I have never really looked into it myself. Last time I applied for a 1 year US visa they sent back my passport with a 10 year multiple entry visa in it !! First application and I didnt even ask for it !!

Edited December 15, 2007 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

http://www.eb5greencard.com/ Looks like 500k gets a green card for you and your family to me ?? Is this info out of date ??

200k was a special class of investment that has to be in designated areas and topics.. E2 by the looks of google hit..

Sorry to all for going OT.. However whenever people say how hard it is to emmigrate to the west, I always feel that the west rolls out the red carpet to people that wont be a drain on the system, if you can invest some money theres often pretty established options, thats for a country that also provides rights and laws and much more opportunities for people who wish to still work. I dont know if Thailand is still operating its investment visa at 40m baht but it seems 2x a US investment to get a temporary annual renewed visa without working to citizenship a bit steep.

Then again I dont want to go live in the west so maybe they have it right

[astral]

When you start comparing the Malaysia MSH program and the Thai Elite program it does get somewhat interesting.

I am not sure there is any comparison between the two schemes.

MM2H needs a considerable sum of money, but it is an investment with returns.

Thai Elite is just a hefty fee for a visa and some perks.

[jonniebkk]

This is not that kind of a case - the person has not offered to invest anything but this poster appears to feel that it is his right to live anywhere. At least that is how it reads to me. And I do not agree with the below and hope that "many expatriates" do not feel this way. The word arrogance comes to mind.

As an aside, you may not agree with this reasoneing, but many expatriates who reside in Thailand feel that by their very presence they are helping to support the Thai economy and society to one degree or another. The spending power of the average foreigner being much higher than the average Thai. Therefore, no further "charity" should be needed for the right to reside in the Kingdom

I don't want to be argumentative but why do you feel such an attitude is "arrogance." I am just stating an economic fact...that there is an economic disparancy between the average spending power of a Thai national and someone from an economically more advance country. Therefore, when such a foreigner visits Thailand as a tourist or a long-term visitor, their higher spending on "luxury" type goods and services disproportionately benefits the Thai economy. This is just a fact...no value judgment needs to be placed on it.

Also, it is just a plain fact that such people are a benefit to the Thai economy. If government policies hinder them from visiting or residing in the country it is Thailand loss. The government is free to do what they feel is in the best interests of the Kingdom. I am just suggesting for the sake of a discussion on this board that the current restrictions are NOT the countries best interests.

Now, the friend referred to in my op (and most others similarly situated) don't go around with any such "attitude." They just go about enjoying themselves but the byproduct of their behavior is a nice injection of new money into circulation in the Thai economy. Some (many?) long-term visitors eventually get involved in some type of charity activities...be it just attending a charity dinner or buying a raffle ticket to setting up an orphanage (as my friend has done here in Pattaya...Baan Jing Jai...for abanded children). They do this even without any prodding of a visa benefit...just out of seeing a need and wanting to help (the best motivation for charity I would think). Of course, even with any type of "volunteer" activities, one must be congnizint of doing anything that might be construed as "work" and then being seen as working with out a work permit.

[jazzbo]

Hello Kuhn johnnieBKK

Under current law and practices, one can obtain (in many cases) a non-Imm 'B' based on Sponsorship. The accepted structure of a Sponsorship Letter must contain a 'Purpose'. I was only suggesting that one such Purpose can be "To investigate NGO's to which I might provide financial assistance." Such a Purpose may give good reason for an Honorary Consul to issue such a Visa, but there can be many other legitimate Purposes. That, to me, is a reasonable assessment as things exist today, and I received 2 non-Imm 'B' visas based on a similar approach.

Nothing is implied or should be inferred from my posts regarding anyone's mode of existence while in the Kingdom.

[Naam]

http://www.eb5greencard.com/ Looks like 500k gets a green card for you and your family to me ?? Is this info out of date ??

read the "fine print" LivinLos!

EB-5 Visa processing takes approximately nine to twelve months, on average we are finding the process via the Vermont EB-5 Program to take 6-7 months. The investment is made before the visa petition is filed and held in Escrow; petition approval is currently averaging 30 days. The Ski Resort EB-5 Program secures funds from investors using Escrow agreements and if their EB-5 visa petition is not approved then their money is returned with interest. Due to the preliminary questionnaires that must be answered under oath and the strong legal counsel (which belongs to the EB-5 Visa advisory committee) we would not submit investors for this opportunity if any factor could cause a potential admissibility issue.

From a company with over 10 years dealing with fast immigration to the U.S via investment, nothing is definite when it comes to immigration. Visa rules are changing all the time and the EB-5 Visa is due for review in September 2008 unless extended.

[stingray]

Other question: If a non US Citizen buy a condo in LA, does he get permanent residence status?

[Jingthing]

Other question: If a non US Citizen buy a condo in LA, does he get permanent residence status?

No, of course not.

And the US doesn't offer retirement visas either.

That is because the US is a first world country. Thailand is not. Comparing their visa policies tit for tat is totally irrelevant.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Jingthing

[Naam]

Last time I applied for a 1 year US visa they sent back my passport with a 10 year multiple entry visa in it !! First application and I didnt even ask for it !!

that's normal procedure if you had a visa before. but did you know that even the 10-year visa might not be honoured? it is up to the discretion of the individual INS officer to let you enter the Greatest Nation on Earth™ or send you back on the same plane.

i retired and we bought our first home in the U.S. in 1989 with the intention to use it as holiday home twice a year for a month or two. we liked it so much that we spend six months in a row in that rather modest home. three years later we decided to build an "appropriate" home as we spent more time in the U.S. than in Germany. another four years later i built two adjacent homes for two of my friends who used them for vacation purposes only. in 1999 we opted to pay income tax in the U.S. and found a way to get rid of the shackles of the german income taxman by pro forma renting out our german home. never had any problem with immigration, we are both german citizens and obtained 10-year visas which enabled us to stay six months at a stretch.

so far so good.

then came september 11th and the greetings of Osama bin-Laden. initially nothing changed. but it took only a few months till questions "who are you? what are you? why are you?" were asked. some officers were nice and polite, others extremely rude. based on that i explored for many months all available options to obtain full residence in the U.S. but at nothing doing except 1mm/2mm investment (see my earlier posting) and creating employment for U.S. citizens. of course we were not willing to commit that kind of money, running a company with employees AND reveal our financial status to the IRS.

in december 2003 my wife -returning from London- called me from Atlanta and told me under tears that when she answered the question "what is the purpose of your visit?" with " we have a home in Florida and spend most of our time there" she was told "THAT IS NOT A VALID REASON TO ENTER THE UNITED STATES!" she got however the entry stamp.

to make a long story short, three months later our home and those of our friends were sold and we left.

[stingray]

Other question: If a non US Citizen buy a condo in LA, does he get permanent residence status?

No, of course not.

And the US doesn't offer retirement visas either.

That is because the US is a first world country. Thailand is not. Comparing their visa policies tit for tat is totally irrelevant.

This is exactly the problem. I come from a european first world country too, Switzerland. But last time when i was in US, just 3 months ago, they asked me where i go. I said, i visit my friends. They asket me: Are your friends all US citizens? I sayd: yes. They asked me: what do you doing for living? and i have to answer them. When i come to Thailand, immigration never asked any questions. There is the problem: All first class countrys makes more and more difficult and even harder for Thais to travel to them. So why they should not tigten theyr rules against us? First world countrys should makes easyer to travel for Thais and maybe Thais would make it easyer for us too.

[Jingthing]

stingray, you are talking about something entirely different. You are talking about the fascistic overreaction of the US government to the 911 attacks. This has nothing to do with Thai immigration policies, which are already quite easy for us from the first world. Thank you very much!