World War Ii -- When Thailand Supported The Axis Powers

[chevykanteve]

During the Second World War, Thailand was allied with the Axis Powers (Japan and Germany). Are current political developments in Thailand suggesting a return of sympathy for a dictatorial state? I ask this only as a rhetorical question.

[ade100]

During the Second World War, Thailand was allied with the Axis Powers (Japan and Germany). Are current political developments in Thailand suggesting a return of sympathy for a dictatorial state? I ask this only as a rhetorical question.

Rhetorical or not, I feel duty bound to comment. Yes Thailand did declare war on us (UK and US that is) during the Second World War. But they later apologised saying the Japanese made them do it, which is a far enough point. The Thais don’t even know what “anti-Semitism” or the “Arian race” mean so any link with Nazism is ill founded.

Current Thai politics is another story all together.

[Theyreallrubbish]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Monument_(Bangkok)

Thailand attacked France after the defeat of France by Germany.

The monument they built to pretend a squalid skirmish was a victory was deliberately made in the Western fascist style.

The government of Thailand at that time were no doubt sympathetic to the axis.

Saying that, there's maybe a 1000 people alive in Thailand today who were alive then?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

During the Second World War, Thailand was allied with the Axis Powers (Japan and Germany). Are current political developments in Thailand suggesting a return of sympathy for a dictatorial state? I ask this only as a rhetorical question.

Rhetorical or not, I feel duty bound to comment. Yes Thailand did declare war on us (UK and US that is) during the Second World War. But they later apologised saying the Japanese made them do it, which is a far enough point. The Thais don’t even know what “anti-Semitism” or the “Arian race” mean so any link with Nazism is ill founded.

Current Thai politics is another story all together.

In actual fact Thailand did not formally declare war on the USA. The Thai Ambassador of the time refused to present the Declaration to the US State Department.

[Mosha]

Don't confuse what the government did, with what the people did. There was a POW camp not far from where I live. That housed many Thais who did not agree with the government of the day.

[LaoPo]

During the Second World War, Thailand was allied with the Axis Powers (Japan and Germany). Are current political developments in Thailand suggesting a return of sympathy for a dictatorial state? I ask this only as a rhetorical question.

Rhetorical or not, I feel duty bound to comment. Yes Thailand did declare war on us (UK and US that is) during the Second World War. But they later apologised saying the Japanese made them do it, which is a far enough point. The Thais don’t even know what “anti-Semitism” or the “Arian race” mean so any link with Nazism is ill founded.

Current Thai politics is another story all together.

In actual fact Thailand did not formally declare war on the USA. The Thai Ambassador of the time refused to present the Declaration to the US State Department.

"Under pressure from Japan, the Phibun regime declared war on Britain and the United States in January 1942, but the Thai ambassador in Washington, Seni Pramoj, refused to deliver the declaration to the United States government. Accordingly, the United States refrained from declaring war on Thailand. With American assistance Seni, a conservative aristocrat whose antiJapanese credentials were well established, organized the Free Thai Movement, recruiting Thai students in the United States to work with the United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS). The OSS trained Thai personnel for underground activities, and units were readied to infiltrate Thailand. From the office of the regent in Thailand, Pridi ran a clandestine movement that by the end of the war had with Allied aid armed more than 50,000 Thai to resist the Japanese.

From:

http://countrystudies.us/thailand/21.htm interesting read !

LaoPo

[Ricardo]

It was actually fortunate that the war ended when it did do, as the next military step after Burma was to be an invasion of Malaya, followed by a push northwards through Thailand. The Thai civil-government were well-aware of these plans.

The British were also looking for reparations from Siam, for their apparent support of Japan during the war, and a possible Allied military-protectorate. However the USA was able to be played-off, against the British, in much the same way that Thailand had used Britain against France previously. So that Thailand managed to maintain its independence once again.

[brahmburgers]

it's good to get a fair-minded view of history. I'd like to know where there might be books about Thai military history from further back - hundreds of years ago. Am open to suggestions.

As for judging WWII - things that happened a generation or more ago cannot be layed as blame on current and future generations. Our fathers and grandfathers (farang or Thai) made a lot of harmful and dumb decisions back then - but we've got to look ahead - even while acknowledging and hopefully learning from past events.

[Gary A]

I think you will find that many Allied flight crews shot down over Thailand would not believe that Thailand was an ally of Japan.

[Norrad]

As for judging WWII - things that happened a generation or more ago cannot be layed as blame on current and future generations. Our fathers and grandfathers (farang or Thai) made a lot of harmful and dumb decisions back then - but we've got to look ahead - even while acknowledging and hopefully learning from past events.

While I agree that the current generations cannot be blamed, they should at least learn about it. Much of their past has been strategically forgotten or "Covered Up". Ask 90% of Thais about WW2 and they don't know anything about it. Ask them about Victory Monument and they will tell you that it's a monument to a Thai victory when all Thais came together to defeat their enemy (They didn't win).

Even recent conflicts, such as the Thai-Laos border war is, conviently, erased from their school history books. All Thais are brought up thinking that their society can do no wrong. They should learn about these events to prevent repeating the past. They are building up their military right now, requests for increased defence spending being passed at the moment and for what reason? All that that will do is make their neighbors nervous which could lead to aid being given to the southern insurgents/political activists to destabalise the government.

[Ricardo]

I think you will find that many Allied flight crews shot down over Thailand would not believe that Thailand was an ally of Japan.

On re-reading this, I suspect you meant to say the opposite, Gary ?

Anyway I am pleased to report that Chiang Mai's farang-cemetary contains a very nice memorial to Allied aircrew who died in the area ... but would agree that Thais don't seem to be aware of the number of S.E.Asians who died, on the JEATH railway.

Those who forget their history are doomed to re-live it !

[david96]

Thailand was occupied by the Japanese during WW2. Japan declared war on the British Empire and The USA. Burma and Malaya and the city of Singapore were part of the British Empire. It was the end of European domination in Asia, the date Dec 7 1941. Malaya and Singapore had fallen by Feb 1942. Burma was next with heavy British casualities. For the Japanese to carry out their plan they needed to occupy Thailand. Thailand was the only country that had not been colonised in mainland Asia,and was techically a neutral.

There were many countries that were neutral in WW2 and most were sympathetic to the Allied or the Axis powers.

WW2 completely changed the world as we then knew it, forever. We see the effects even today in 2007.

Edited December 22, 2007 by david96

[Gary A]

I think you will find that many Allied flight crews shot down over Thailand would not believe that Thailand was an ally of Japan.

On re-reading this, I suspect you meant to say the opposite, Gary ?

Anyway I am pleased to report that Chiang Mai's farang-cemetary contains a very nice memorial to Allied aircrew who died in the area ... but would agree that Thais don't seem to be aware of the number of S.E.Asians who died, on the JEATH railway.

Those who forget their history are doomed to re-live it !

Many of those Allied flight crews were hidden and protected by the Thai people particularly up country. The crews that were saved by those Thai people would certainly have been captured if not for those people.

[chavy]

Certainly amongst the younger generation of Thais I know are quite ignorant of that part of 'Thai history'. I'm not sure if this is part of the school program in Thailand. My ex gf was totally oblivious to WW11 , The Bridge Over The River Kwai & how many Asians died building the railway & the atrocities from that period of history.

Sometimes they say "ignorance is bliss"

[ade100]

Those who forget their history are doomed to re-live it !

Nice quote. Where does this come from?

[chevykanteve]

During the Second World War, Thailand was allied with the Axis Powers (Japan and Germany). Are current political developments in Thailand suggesting a return of sympathy for a dictatorial state? I ask this only as a rhetorical question.

Rhetorical or not, I feel duty bound to comment. Yes Thailand did declare war on us (UK and US that is) during the Second World War. But they later apologised saying the Japanese made them do it, which is a far enough point. The Thais don’t even know what “anti-Semitism” or the “Arian race” mean so any link with Nazism is ill founded.

Current Thai politics is another story all together.

In actual fact Thailand did not formally declare war on the USA. The Thai Ambassador of the time refused to present the Declaration to the US State Department.

As I recall, the US ambassador to Thailand was initially presented with a declaration of war from Siam; he laughed and refused to accept it. But I may be wrong on that. It's like a high-school world-history-class memory from years ago.

Edited December 22, 2007 by chevykanteve

[Mozikillah]

Those who forget their history are doomed to re-live it !

Nice quote. Where does this come from?

A quote by George Satayana

''Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.''

Guess its similar no?!

[bendejo]

Japan was pushing an "Asia for Asians" campaign, and most of the countries were taken in at first. I used to have a photo of a poster from the campaign somewhere, the background color was blood-red, and focused on inflaming the animosity the locals had toward the Occidentals, particularly the colonialists.

When the Japanese actually arrived it was another story -- for example, their taste for beef was enough to change the sympathies of the Hindus right quick. And who knows, if it weren't for that alone they may have advanced further westward than Burma.

[Travel2003]

As I recall, the US ambassador to Thailand was initially presented with a declaration of war from Siam; he laughed and refused to accept it. But I may be wrong on that. It's like a high-school world-history-class memory from years ago.

He laughed and refused to accept it?

dam_n, why didnt other countries think of that when they were declared war upon.

England declare war on Germany after their invasion of Poland.

Germany refuse to accept it and tell England to stay out of it.

kidding

[Ricardo]

I think you will find that many Allied flight crews shot down over Thailand would not believe that Thailand was an ally of Japan.

On re-reading this, I suspect you meant to say the opposite, Gary ?

Anyway I am pleased to report that Chiang Mai's farang-cemetary contains a very nice memorial to Allied aircrew who died in the area ... but would agree that Thais don't seem to be aware of the number of S.E.Asians who died, on the JEATH railway.

Those who forget their history are doomed to re-live it !

Many of those Allied flight crews were hidden and protected by the Thai people particularly up country. The crews that were saved by those Thai people would certainly have been captured if not for those people.

Sorry, I had misunderstood you, because they were shot down while flying over Thailand, which meant that Thailand was under Japanese control. Good for those individual Thai people ! Just goes to show that the individual does still count.

[Ricardo]

how many Asians died building the railway & the atrocities from that period of history.

The vast majority of Asians that died building the infamous railway were captured fighting on the Allied side. The majority of whom were citizens of British colonies such as Singapore, Burma, HK, India etc.

Around 8,000 Thais are reputed to have to died there, of those, the majority were insurgents and resistance fighters.

Adding to this, my Lonely Planet says that an estimated 16,000 POWs died while building the Death Railway, and goes on to say "Although the number of POWs who died during the Japanese occupation is horrifying,the figures for the labourers, many from Thailand, Myanmar, Malaysia and Indonesia, are even worse. It is thought that 90,000 to 100,000 coolies died in the area."

Sobering numbers indeed. R.I.P.

[Jingthing]

What is the difference between "coolies" and slave laborers?

(And yes we do have a shortage of U's.)

Edited December 22, 2007 by Jingthing

[sriracha john]

I will reiterate that it is a commonly believed myth that hundreds of thousands of Thais died on the railway. In fact sources claim around 6,000 to 8,000 Thais died, the majority of whom were resistance fighters.

The Australian Government should be informed of this so that they can correct the numerous contrary references contained in their Hellfire Pass Memorial in Kanchanaburi.

[naka]

Thai Prime Ministers have always been exceptional diplomats ... as in ... who's winning now ?

Naka.

Edited December 22, 2007 by naka

[AlexLah]

Not really sure but was the 'South' given to Thailand by the English at the end of the war?

[buffcoat]

The Thai armed forces did resist the original japanese landings particularly in the South.

Thailand had the misfortune to be on the best invasion route for the Japanese to get to their targets in Malaysia and Burma.

The Thai Govt. threw in the towel before the casualty lists got too heavy (they had no chance of conducting a succesful defence and pre-war pleas to the US & UK for arms etc had been ignored).

Eventually 100,000 japanese troops occupied their 'ally' Thailand and the Thais went along with things as best they could.

They did fight the French in Indo-China but effectively lost.The japanese forced Vichy France to cede territory to Thailand but most of this was land that was previously Thai and taken from them by the French at gunpoint in the early 1900's (during that period the French navy sailed up to Bangkok and threatened to bombard the city unless the Thais gave them the land they wanted).

On the same basis part of the Shan states were given to Thailand as were sections of North Malaysia both regions previously controlled by the British.

Both Britain and France absorbed provinces that the Thai regarded as theirs in the expansionist colonial period but Thailand by putting up with it maintained independence.

After the war the british and French took back the provinces held by the Thai in WW2.

The existing four southern provinces were annexed by Thailand 100 years ago I think),they were not then part of any colonial empire and I can't remember if they were independent or not.

The Thai Govt was essentially pragmatic and joined the Japanese as an ally rather than be an occupied enemy and clearly were able to persuade the Allies of that based on the treatment they received after the war.

Yes they would have liked to keep the land they gained through Japanese help but then most of that land was taken from them in the first place.

It is a pity that this period is not part of Thai education if only for the reason that most Westerners at least have a very strong and continuing interest in (what they believe) took place and it does affect how they view the world and interact with others.

[Mosha]

I think you will find that many Allied flight crews shot down over Thailand would not believe that Thailand was an ally of Japan.

On re-reading this, I suspect you meant to say the opposite, Gary ?

Anyway I am pleased to report that Chiang Mai's farang-cemetary contains a very nice memorial to Allied aircrew who died in the area ... but would agree that Thais don't seem to be aware of the number of S.E.Asians who died, on the JEATH railway.

Those who forget their history are doomed to re-live it !

I'm confused by the naming JEATH. OK I realise it is the initials for Japan English Australian Thailand Holland. However when I visited many years ago to photograph a stone for a friend who never new his dad. The Museum people called it De'ath railway to signify the victims Dutch, English (Brits), Australians, and THai. At that time the Japanese avoided Khanchanaburi.

There was one comment from a lone Japanese tourist in the visitors book that simply said "Sorry".

[h90]

During the Second World War, Thailand was allied with the Axis Powers (Japan and Germany). Are current political developments in Thailand suggesting a return of sympathy for a dictatorial state? I ask this only as a rhetorical question.

Rhetorical or not, I feel duty bound to comment. Yes Thailand did declare war on us (UK and US that is) during the Second World War. But they later apologised saying the Japanese made them do it, which is a far enough point. The Thais don’t even know what “anti-Semitism” or the “Arian race” mean so any link with Nazism is ill founded.

Current Thai politics is another story all together.

I must correct you on that: My wife and many other well educated use Jew as a very bad word. Recently often heard "The Singapores are the Jews of Asia". And that is something very hard for Singapore....

I even got told that the Southern Thais are "Arian race" coming somehow over India (where are indeed some Arian fragments" and therefore the are better than Isaan. I have doubts of Arian Southern Thais, even I am not educated enough to have an opinion on that. Meanwhile I put that in the folder labeled BS....

There are some ultra-right-wings in thailand.

[Jingthing]

h90, I think you have that all wrong.

For many years the Chinese diaspora in Asia have been called the "Jews of Asia" indeed. That is not at all derogatory. It is descriptive. It means in parts of Asia there are Chinese minorities (Indonesia being the best example) that because of culture have succeeded in ways greater than their numbers would predict, and thus also suffer persecution. Just like the Jews have in many countries throughout history. It is not meant to say anything bad about Chinese or Jews. Of course, Singapore is a heavily Chinese island.

Thailand is kind of a special case in this regard, as the Chinese are super successful here and yet no history of persecution as in Indonesia and Malaysia.

Of course, there are actual Asian Jews in China. So I guess they are the real Jews of Asia!

Edited December 22, 2007 by Jingthing

[moe666]

Why require Thais to know their history, when witless kids form the west do not know theirs.