Exit Poll Results Show PPP Wins

[ando]

Interesting, although brief, profile of Thailand's next Prime Minister...

Samak has unabashedly declared: "I'm Thaksin's nominee."

- The Electric New Paper

Lets be clear that a nominee is much different from a proxy.

A nominee is simply someone endorsed by the person nominating them. Even then it would be up to Thaksin to confirm that he in fact nominated Samak in some official political capacity rather than simply endorsing him in a personal capacity.

These journalists sometimes play around with words to give inaccurate impressions. And of course some chat forum users also quote these journalists to give equally false impressions.

[gjones]

So when is the next coup?

[John K]

This is looking more and more like the hot potato. But giving just a quick summary without getting too deep into the specifics here are some things that could trigger the coup.

Politicians dictating the structure of the military. (Placing people in key positions who are more loyal to Thaksin than to who they should be loyal to.) No army will willingly hand it’s weapons to the enemy.

Starting to remove the teeth from the new constitution. (Laws that keep politicians honest.)

Overturning the Constitutional tribunal ruling on the Banned TRT. (General disrespect for the law and self serving actions.)

I see those as flash points that could trigger a coup sooner than later. From what I see that is all planned in the first weeks work for the PPP.

This is all a bit early to comment on, so lets see what happens over the next few days.

[marshbags]

I think this "proxy" thing is way overblown. A proxy is more or less part of a formal relationship between two people or entities where one of them (called the proxy) is officially given the right and power to act for the other. There is no such relationship between Samak and Toxin....nor is there such a relationship between PPP and TRT(TRT doesn't exist any longer). Someone who doesn't want PPP to form a gov't (or many somones) has taken this label used for official relationships and tried to tack it onto any place where they think it will stick.....but there is no formal relationship anywhere.

A group of people who have a political philosophy which follows the ideas or ideals of some person or some other political party is not a proxy for that person or political party....its just not an accurate way of describing it....in a word...it is Bullshrift....there is nothing that makes it illegal or immoral for a group of people to emulate someone's ideas or ideals...or for a political party to emulate the ideas or ideals of another political party!!!...in fact you could say that the essence of politics is that individuals alone and thorugh their political affiliations try to propogate their ideas and ideals and actively do everything they can to see that others emulate them...this is what politics is all about. Really this "proxy" bullshrift is an attempt to censor the entire political process as it pertains to the opposition as seen in the PPP.....it is about as undemocratic and about as anti-political freedom of a stance as can be achieved....fits right in with the military dictatorship style of gov't which so many here were so happy to see come about.

Chownah

The only dictator if any potential i have seen in the last few years in reference to your dictatorship style of government is Thaksin / Thaksins.

This is not a personal attack before anyone thinks otherwise, you are entitled to your views as we are all entitled to ours on the present situation and differences of the scenario as we see it.

For me and more than half the nation, ( much more ) voter to voter with the inclusion of those within the unprincipled coalition parties who their leaders have ignored, the PPP / TRT are nothing more than a cloned twosome.

It is not bullshi* either.

Democracy is about freedom and uniting the people, along with equality of a more reasonable nature to take into account the deserving less well off members of society, not only in the North / North East , but everywhere in Thailand.

The cloned party have done their utmost to polarise the country even more than it was.

It is bullshi* to deny there is any connection between Thaksin and his ilk and Samaks gathering of money picking vultures, other than just following a particular parties philosophy and again more than half the nation believe otherwise.

This figure to include all those voters who voted for the parties who are now joining forces with the PPP / TRT in spite of their supporters wishes, just in case anyone needs reminding of the importance of this.

They are not incidently joining forces because the PPP / TRT are offering the best policies and are representing the people based on democratic principles / ideals.

Had the Democratic party had the same financial backing from the same sponsor in exile ( which they had an opportunity to do so , but dismissed it completely.)

Unlike these unprincipiled coailition leaders they would have switched their new found alliances to them and well we all know this.

When you compare the much publicised agendas of the 2 main parties both before and after the elections, it is glaringly obvious which party has the correct sentiments to reunite the country, along with the countries long term future, while the other does the opposite of course.

We await what unfolds in the future months relating to the exiled ones contribution relating to the cloning of the PPP / TRT bullshif you would wish us to believe is nothing more than a following of similar ideas / ideals.

We also await the dismantling of the unfavourable institutions ect. and the blatant misuse of the law to allow most of the corruption that was exposed and is presently awaiting the process of it and the distribution of penalties a fair society would expect to be given.

This includes the more than half of the Nation who voted against the electing of the PPP / TRT cloned party.

Sadly i fear there is much trouble ahead due to the polarisation that has and will continue to grow even wider, along with much innocent blood as a consequence of it all.

IMH and PO as always.

marshbags

Edited January 19, 2008 by marshbags

[sriracha john]

Those d@mn journalists et al... and even politicians... including those now currently with the proxy PPP...

=======================================

Last Friday, Samak in a press interview said he decided to come out of retirement and re-enter politics in the wake of TRT's court-ordered dissolution, and that after speaking by telephone with Thaksin he agreed to "look after" the former premier's party members while they contest the next polls under a new PPP banner.

- Shawn Crispin, Asia Times / August 10, 2007

========================================

People Power executive Suthin Klangsaeng said Samak gave party members "more spirit" because he was an outspoken character who dared to tell the truth when others might not. "It is an advantage for the party to have a person like Samak," he said.

Suthin admitted that some of the party executives elected yesterday were chosen by Thaksin. Former top Thai Rak Thai members sent a list of executives to Thaksin before the party assembly, he said.

- The Nation / August 25, 2007

========================================

The People's Power Party (PPP), which is basically a proxy of Thaksin's banned Thai Rak Thai party.

- Daniel Ten Kate, Asia Sentinel / September 3, 2007

=========================================

Leader Suwit Khunkitti yesterday announced the birth of his Puea Pandin Party. "The new party wants to offer voters a choice and not be a proxy."

- The Nation / September 30, 2007

=========================================

Palang Prachachon Party's [People Power Party] latest campaign slogan,"Choose Samak, Get Thaksin"

- The Nation / October 16, 2007

=========================================

Chaturon Chaisaeng, a key figure of the campaign to bring back ex-PM Thaksin Shinwatara, says pugnacious leader Samak Sundaravej of the self-described proxy People Power Party (PPP) is driving away voters.

- Bangkok Post / November 18, 2007

=========================================

But Thaksin's popularity in rural areas such as Isaan remains undented, and with his loyalists in the PPP tipped to win more seats than any other party, his political clout is still a force to be reckoned with, even from self-imposed exile in England."This election is a proxy war between Thaksin and the coupmakers," says Chris Baker, co-author of Thaksin: The Business of Politics in Thailand.

- Time Magazine / December 14, 2007

=========================================

People's Power Party head Samak Sundaravej has been charged with involvement in corrupt deals while serving as Bangkok's mayor. But he is seen as Thaksin's proxy and his earthy style appeals to many.

- Associated Press / December 23. 2007

=========================================

Mr. Samak, who earlier admitted being a proxy of Thaksin, added amnesty for the 111 TRT executives would also be a priority if he assumed the premiership.

- Thai News Agency / December 23, 2007

=========================================

"It is a victory for this country," Samak told a news conference, adding that he would "certainly be prime minister." The big question is whether the army will stand by and watch its arch-enemy make a comeback by proxy.

- Reuters / December 24, 2007

=========================================

In the recent general election, some candidates for Thaksin's proxy People Power Party campaigned in Manchester City jerseys in a clear marriage of politics and sport.

- The Age (Australia) / December 27, 2007

=========================================

The leader of People Power Party, Samak Sundaravej, spoke openly during campaigning of being a proxy for the former prime minister, and vowed he would bring Thaksin back to Thailand if he took office.

- Canberra Times / December 28, 2007

=========================================

Thaksin Shinawatra’s proxy party does not have the mandate it claims. Forget the political posturing of People Power Party spokesmen from Thaksin Shinawatra’s former Thai Rak Thai Party; ignore the false impressions created by simplistic analysis of the number of seats won by the PPP in the December 23 General Election – many by an exceedingly narrow margin.

- James R. Klein, Ph.D, Asia Foundation, Asia Sentinel / January 2, 2008

=========================================

[chownah]

Yeah, amazing how a bunch of college educated journalists could so screw up and confuse the definitions of the word proxy and how it might or might not apply to various actions.....or is the misinterpretation and confusion more on the part of the readers who perhaps don't realize that "proxy" has different legal consequences in different situations...or is someone or many someones confusing the terms "proxy" and "nominee"...or...or....

Doesn't really matter what the journalists print....journalists don't define the laws nor do they define reality. The term "proxy" as it relates to illegal political action in Thailand is not what PPP is......it is more accurate to call them a clone of TRT....or that they emulate TRT....or that they are a carbon copy of TRT.......but none of these terms are used to define illegal actions in politics in Thailand....so those in opposition to PPP have chosen to use the word "proxy" because of its legal ramifications.....only problem is that this term does not fit quite right as there is not formal agreement between the two parties....obviously...since one of them no longer exists.

Chownah

[thaigene2]

democracy: n. (State having) government by all the people, direct or representative; form of society ignoring hereditery class distinctions and tolerating minority views

Source: The Oxford Concise Dictionary of Current English - Seventh Edition

[ando]

This is looking more and more like the hot potato. But giving just a quick summary without getting too deep into the specifics here are some things that could trigger the coup.

Politicians dictating the structure of the military. (Placing people in key positions who are more loyal to Thaksin than to who they should be loyal to.) No army will willingly hand it’s weapons to the enemy.

Starting to remove the teeth from the new constitution. (Laws that keep politicians honest.)

Overturning the Constitutional tribunal ruling on the Banned TRT. (General disrespect for the law and self serving actions.)

I see those as flash points that could trigger a coup sooner than later. From what I see that is all planned in the first weeks work for the PPP.

This is all a bit early to comment on, so lets see what happens over the next few days.

"Elected" politicians determining the structure of the military is the way it works in all modern democracies. But yes I do see it as a potential cause of conflict in Thailand. I think the generals are already getting a little worried. http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/19Jan2008_news13.php

The military certainly needs to have their wings clipped and be kept out of politics if democracy is to have a go in Thailand.

Removing the teeth from the new constitution? Well why not scrap it altogether and put it to a referendum for the people to decide under a freely elected government this time round. Not a PPP only style constitution, but one with endorsement from all parties including the Democrats. I honestly believe that even the Democrats don't want to see a constitution where the military have the right to step in and seize power any time they don't like the way things are going.

Overturning the Constitutional Court ruling on banned TRT politicians? Well, any challenge would have to be done through due legal process there and so it wouldn't just be up to the government of the day. Although I somehow suspect that the courts tend to lean towards the political power of the day and are not above the odd bit of political interference themselves. So long as it looks all legal and above board I cant see a problem there. Surely the courts wouldn't pass such a thing if it wasn't legal?

Personally, I think the generals are in a bit of a bind at the moment. If they move in too quickly and stage another coup, they will be exposed for what they really are;-- just a bunch of thugs with guns taking over a democratically elected government. And if they wait too long they risk being neutered. Personally, I think Samak will go for an election when things grind to a halt in order to head of the generals eye on power.

Edited January 19, 2008 by ando

[marshbags]

Yeah, amazing how a bunch of college educated journalists could so screw up and confuse the definitions of the word proxy and how it might or might not apply to various actions.....or is the misinterpretation and confusion more on the part of the readers who perhaps don't realize that "proxy" has different legal consequences in different situations...or is someone or many someones confusing the terms "proxy" and "nominee"...or...or....

Doesn't really matter what the journalists print....journalists don't define the laws nor do they define reality. The term "proxy" as it relates to illegal political action in Thailand is not what PPP is......it is more accurate to call them a clone of TRT....or that they emulate TRT....or that they are a carbon copy of TRT.......but none of these terms are used to define illegal actions in politics in Thailand....so those in opposition to PPP have chosen to use the word "proxy" because of its legal ramifications.....only problem is that this term does not fit quite right as there is not formal agreement between the two parties....obviously...since one of them no longer exists.

Chownah

We are all well aware of this, but thanks for expanding on it for all of us.

Should it have been otherwise they would not have even got to the ballot boxes.

marshbags

[sriracha john]

Yeah, amazing how a bunch of college educated journalists could so screw up and confuse the definitions of the word proxy and how it might or might not apply to various actions.....or is the misinterpretation and confusion more on the part of the readers who perhaps don't realize that "proxy" has different legal consequences in different situations...or is someone or many someones confusing the terms "proxy" and "nominee"...or...or....

Doesn't really matter what the journalists print....journalists don't define the laws nor do they define reality. The term "proxy" as it relates to illegal political action in Thailand is not what PPP is......it is more accurate to call them a clone of TRT....or that they emulate TRT....or that they are a carbon copy of TRT.......but none of these terms are used to define illegal actions in politics in Thailand....so those in opposition to PPP have chosen to use the word "proxy" because of its legal ramifications.....only problem is that this term does not fit quite right as there is not formal agreement between the two parties....obviously...since one of them no longer exists.

Chownah

Speaking of the law, what precisely does it say is its definition in this particular situation?

[younghusband]

The posts immediately above remind me of the arguments of mediaeval monks on how many angels could fit on the head of the pin.I hope we can move on shortly to examine the significance of the PPP win and what it all actually means.

[ando]

Those d@mn journalists et al... and even politicians... including those now currently with the proxy PPP...

=======================================

Last Friday, Samak in a press interview said he decided to come out of retirement and re-enter politics in the wake of TRT's court-ordered dissolution, and that after speaking by telephone with Thaksin he agreed to "look after" the former premier's party members while they contest the next polls under a new PPP banner.

- Shawn Crispin, Asia Times / August 10, 2007

========================================

People Power executive Suthin Klangsaeng said Samak gave party members "more spirit" because he was an outspoken character who dared to tell the truth when others might not. "It is an advantage for the party to have a person like Samak," he said.

Suthin admitted that some of the party executives elected yesterday were chosen by Thaksin. Former top Thai Rak Thai members sent a list of executives to Thaksin before the party assembly, he said.

- The Nation / August 25, 2007

========================================

The People's Power Party (PPP), which is basically a proxy of Thaksin's banned Thai Rak Thai party.

- Daniel Ten Kate, Asia Sentinel / September 3, 2007

=========================================

Leader Suwit Khunkitti yesterday announced the birth of his Puea Pandin Party. "The new party wants to offer voters a choice and not be a proxy."

- The Nation / September 30, 2007

=========================================

Palang Prachachon Party's [People Power Party] latest campaign slogan,"Choose Samak, Get Thaksin"

- The Nation / October 16, 2007

=========================================

Chaturon Chaisaeng, a key figure of the campaign to bring back ex-PM Thaksin Shinwatara, says pugnacious leader Samak Sundaravej of the self-described proxy People Power Party (PPP) is driving away voters.

- Bangkok Post / November 18, 2007

=========================================

But Thaksin's popularity in rural areas such as Isaan remains undented, and with his loyalists in the PPP tipped to win more seats than any other party, his political clout is still a force to be reckoned with, even from self-imposed exile in England."This election is a proxy war between Thaksin and the coupmakers," says Chris Baker, co-author of Thaksin: The Business of Politics in Thailand.

- Time Magazine / December 14, 2007

=========================================

People's Power Party head Samak Sundaravej has been charged with involvement in corrupt deals while serving as Bangkok's mayor. But he is seen as Thaksin's proxy and his earthy style appeals to many.

- Associated Press / December 23. 2007

=========================================

Mr. Samak, who earlier admitted being a proxy of Thaksin, added amnesty for the 111 TRT executives would also be a priority if he assumed the premiership.

- Thai News Agency / December 23, 2007

=========================================

"It is a victory for this country," Samak told a news conference, adding that he would "certainly be prime minister." The big question is whether the army will stand by and watch its arch-enemy make a comeback by proxy.

- Reuters / December 24, 2007

=========================================

In the recent general election, some candidates for Thaksin's proxy People Power Party campaigned in Manchester City jerseys in a clear marriage of politics and sport.

- The Age (Australia) / December 27, 2007

=========================================

The leader of People Power Party, Samak Sundaravej, spoke openly during campaigning of being a proxy for the former prime minister, and vowed he would bring Thaksin back to Thailand if he took office.

- Canberra Times / December 28, 2007

=========================================

Thaksin Shinawatra’s proxy party does not have the mandate it claims. Forget the political posturing of People Power Party spokesmen from Thaksin Shinawatra’s former Thai Rak Thai Party; ignore the false impressions created by simplistic analysis of the number of seats won by the PPP in the December 23 General Election – many by an exceedingly narrow margin.

- James R. Klein, Ph.D, Asia Foundation, Asia Sentinel / January 2, 2008

=========================================

So, you reckon any of those quoted above will be called to provide their "hard evidence" to the EC ? I will bet London to a brick none of them have any substantial evidence that would stand up in a court of law. Its one thing to print opinions and try to present them as fact, but its a different matter in court where political opinions don't count.

[sriracha john]

Those d@mn journalists et al... and even politicians... including those now currently with the proxy PPP...

========================================

Leader Suwit Khunkitti yesterday announced the birth of his Puea Pandin Party. "The new party wants to offer voters a choice and not be a proxy."

- The Nation / September 30, 2007

I hope we can move on shortly to examine the significance of the PPP win and what it all actually means.

It means a scant 3 and half months is long, long time in Thai politics...

Puea Pandin expected to take five posts in Cabinet

The Puea Pandin Party leader, Suvit Khunkitti, along with the representatives of the Chart Thai Party and three smaller parties are planning to discuss the formation of the new Cabinet with the People Power Party today (January 19th).

The Puea Pandin Party is expected to have two ministerial positions as well as two deputy ministerial posts. In addition, Mr. Suvit is likely to take on the Deputy Prime Minister's post.

- ThaiNews

[ando]

We are all well aware of this, but thanks for expanding on it for all of us.

Should it have been otherwise they would not have even got to the ballot boxes.

marshbags

An attempt at satire?

[mbkudu]

No need to concern yourselves over the election issue any longer. PPP Cleared by Supreme Court

Edited January 19, 2008 by mbkudu

[ando]

Speaking of the law, what precisely does it say is its definition in this particular situation?

Why dont you look it up yourself John?

http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?typ...mp;submit1.y=15

[sbk]

Thai Court Dismisses Election Challenge:

January 19, 2008 - 9:48AM

Thailand's Supreme Court has cleared the way for a political party linked to ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra to form a new government, dismissing legal challenges to its election victory last month.

The court said it did not have the power to rule on several complaints alleging election law violations by the Thaksin-linked People's Power Party, or PPP, which won the most parliamentary seats but failed to obtain an absolute majority in December 23 general elections, the first since Thaksin was ousted in a September 2006 military coup.

The court also ruled on a separate case that sought to nullify the election, dismissing a complaint that the Election Commission was not legally authorised to allow advance and absentee voting.

The rulings apparently make it possible for the PPP to form a new government after Thailand's parliament convenes next week. The party was to formally announce details Saturday of a planned six-party ruling coalition.

"The justice we received today has allowed us to clear another hurdle," PPP spokesman Kuthep Saikrajang said. "We don't foresee any problem in forming a new government."

The case against the PPP was brought by a member of the rival Democrat Party, which came in second in the elections.

Democrat Party member Chaiwat Sinsuwong accused the PPP and its leader, Samak Sundaravej, of serving as a proxy for Thaksin and his former ruling party - an act he said violated election laws.

Last year, Thaksin was barred from politics for five years and his Thai Rak Thai party was dissolved by a court order.

Chaiwat abruptly resigned from the Democrat Party just before Friday's court ruling. Party leaders had earlier urged him to withdraw his complaint.

He had also asked the court to annul the election, asserting that distribution of a video CD showing Thaksin endorsing the PPP constituted illegal vote-buying because the videos could be construed to be a gift.

He had claimed as well that the advance voting - in which people unable to return to their home districts on polling day were allowed to cast their ballots a week before the main election - tainted the electoral process.

The court said the question of whether the PPP was a front for Thaksin was not a matter under its jurisdiction, and the question of vote-buying was an issue for the Election Commission.

It repeated its earlier ruling on a separate complaint, proclaiming that the advance voting was legally conducted by the Election Commission.

The PPP, organised after Thaksin's party was disbanded, is expected to name Samak, a right-wing firebrand, the new prime minister.

Samak is a divisive figure who openly described his role during the campaign as being a stand-in for Thaksin, and vowed to reinstate the populist policies of the former prime minister's government.

Thaksin, who has been living in exile in London and travelling frequently to Asia since his ouster, has been accused of massive corruption and abuse of power. He has vowed to return to Thailand by April, and insists he has retired from politics.

The tycoon-turned-politician remains highly popular with the rural masses who benefited from his social welfare programs, and the PPP's campaign focused heavily on bringing him back to Thailand.

© 2008 AP

Sydney Morning Herald

[Siripon]

It was highly amusing to see Chuwit talking to a picture of Banharn on the pavement, accusing him of not being the party of truth as his party slogan claimed, and going back on his word to not disappoint someone he's respected for 30 years.

'How can Banharn end his political life like this?' was the parting question.

Easily of course, money has always been Banharn's motive, being in the Opposition leads to parched mouths, to refer to his own words.

As I said months ago when the anti- coup brigade were wringing their hands over the dissolution of TRT( voters disenfranchised, democracy set back 20 years, no election likely), all they had to do was set up a new party, retain constituency MPs' loyalty with money and all would be well, as indeed happened.

Personally I will be very pleased if Issan MPs form a large part of the Cabinet, and the public will have a chance to see how dedicated to the well-being and improvement of the 'grassroots' they really are.

I think Samak will be PM as Thaksin usually shows gratitude to those who help him when the chips are down.

The expectations of the PPP supporters will be high for more immediate populist policies and these could form a prelude to a snap election where Thaksin will go for a big majority to enable sweeping changes in various parts of the bureaucracy to get off the hook of the various corruption charges.

Thaksin knows that real concrete changes to lessen income disparity require long term policies involving education, research in agriculture and technology, issues that don't lend themselves to votes in the immediate future, so as in the TRT era, expect more marketing gimmicks and little else of substance.

And of course don't expect any more democracy than in the TRT era as only one, (or possibly two if we include the wife's) opinion counts now the votes are in.

[hammered]

It was highly amusing to see Chuwit talking to a picture of Banharn on the pavement, accusing him of not being the party of truth as his party slogan claimed, and going back on his word to not disappoint someone he's respected for 30 years.

'How can Banharn end his political life like this?' was the parting question.

Easily of course, money has always been Banharn's motive, being in the Opposition leads to parched mouths, to refer to his own words.

As I said months ago when the anti- coup brigade were wringing their hands over the dissolution of TRT( voters disenfranchised, democracy set back 20 years, no election likely), all they had to do was set up a new party, retain constituency MPs' loyalty with money and all would be well, as indeed happened.

Personally I will be very pleased if Issan MPs form a large part of the Cabinet, and the public will have a chance to see how dedicated to the well-being and improvement of the 'grassroots' they really are.

I think Samak will be PM as Thaksin usually shows gratitude to those who help him when the chips are down.

The expectations of the PPP supporters will be high for more immediate populist policies and these could form a prelude to a snap election where Thaksin will go for a big majority to enable sweeping changes in various parts of the bureaucracy to get off the hook of the various corruption charges.

Thaksin knows that real concrete changes to lessen income disparity require long term policies involving education, research in agriculture and technology, issues that don't lend themselves to votes in the immediate future, so as in the TRT era, expect more marketing gimmicks and little else of substance.

And of course don't expect any more democracy than in the TRT era as only one, (or possibly two if we include the wife's) opinion counts now the votes are in.

A good summary and thanks for moving us on from a discussion of a court decision that is going nowhere fast.

Today the hard copy Post has a translation of a Matichon piece where they argue that internal conflicts within the PPP are already slowing the forming of a government as Samak is acting a bit more independently than he is supposed to! If this is correct and continues we could well be in for an interesting ride. It is easy enough to stick a front person up for the big job but it is not so easy to rid yourself of them when they already have a taste for it.

There was also a nice Thai Rath piece on corruption in politics excluding the good or able.

Yes the marketing by TRT has always been first rate and extremely effective. No doubt PPP will continue this. It really is an area that the opposition need to look to as they are quite deficient in this area and it counts in the modern world where style trumps substance.

Anyway the court has cleared the way for a return to normalcy. That should be welcomed. These cases will go no furhter as the EC already criticised by P-Net and ANFREL for its inaction over vote manipulation seems to now just want to certfiy every candidate and move on regardless of whether electoral offences were commited, which even if practical is kind of disappointing as it will leave outstanding issues probably unanswered or in some long term legal limbo which wont reach resolution until well after the term of the current government.

Edited to add: There is a longer term democratic issue concerning the Chart Thai and other whore parties (or robber parties to use the Thai Rath expression) stating a position to the electorate that then voted for them arguably on their public position and then doing a quick 180 after the election. It is good to see there are a few principled people in these little parties that are willing to resign because of the parties reneging on what they said. At least both the PPP and Dems are pretty much what you see. Sadly the whore parties just rely on repaving the roads of Suphanburi while abandoning any principle in three seconds flat to get them reelected in their ever shrinkink feifdoms (may it continue this way) as they pray to whatver God they believe in (probably mammon) that a parlaiment will be hung enough to enable them to exert all kinds of influence to grab more than their fair share of the money ministries (agriculture, transport etc).

Edited January 19, 2008 by hammered

[sriracha john]

Speaking of the law, what precisely does it say is its definition in this particular situation?

Why dont you look it up yourself John?

http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?typ...mp;submit1.y=15

I mean the constitutional law that applies to this case. Assuming they didn't use dictionary.com's English definition when writing this law in Thai.

[Abrak]

Where the law has been made a mockery of is the case of Newin Chidchob.

He has been banned from politics but is blatantly orchestrating the formation of the new cabinet.

[hammered]

Where the law has been made a mockery of is the case of Newin Chidchob.

He has been banned from politics but is blatantly orchestrating the formation of the new cabinet.

Ah but as many on here will quickly tell you there is a difference between what is common knowledge and legally provable;) Which of course is true if you want to have as ociety based on law.

Naturally Newin will not take his ban sitting down while the unbanned Yuth gets to make all the decisions and play billy big balls! Then again we shouldnt forget there is a bigger master pulling other strings from afar.

[Abrak]

Where the law has been made a mockery of is the case of Newin Chidchob.

He has been banned from politics but is blatantly orchestrating the formation of the new cabinet.

Ah but as many on here will quickly tell you there is a difference between what is common knowledge and legally provable;) Which of course is true if you want to have as ociety based on law.

Naturally Newin will not take his ban sitting down while the unbanned Yuth gets to make all the decisions and play billy big balls! Then again we shouldnt forget there is a bigger master pulling other strings from afar.

I think we will quickly find that Thaksin is not in control of things at all.

The idea that people like Chalerm can be told what to do is interesting. I think Thaksin will find that he is beholden to the gangsters to get him out of his legal hole. I suspect the tail may start wagging the dog.

[hammered]

Where the law has been made a mockery of is the case of Newin Chidchob.

He has been banned from politics but is blatantly orchestrating the formation of the new cabinet.

Ah but as many on here will quickly tell you there is a difference between what is common knowledge and legally provable;) Which of course is true if you want to have as ociety based on law.

Naturally Newin will not take his ban sitting down while the unbanned Yuth gets to make all the decisions and play billy big balls! Then again we shouldnt forget there is a bigger master pulling other strings from afar.

I think we will quickly find that Thaksin is not in control of things at all.

The idea that people like Chalerm can be told what to do is interesting. I think Thaksin will find that he is beholden to the gangsters to get him out of his legal hole. I suspect the tail may start wagging the dog.

Matichon did a piece on this translated into todays Post. It certainly is a complicated picture. No doubt the return of Mr. Ts better half indicates that Mr. T wants to have a person closer to the action. It is a bit risky for him to return soon. The courts have supposedly removed his wife's passport which I think would worry him a bit.

Some would argue that Mr. T already doesnt want Samak as PM but is kinda unable to prevent it so must support it. Ah Thai politics dont you just love it

[LomSak27]

I thought I would find a new thread on General News clippings with the news of the days Election upheld

but nothing.

lock the door and turn the lights out when your done.

[John K]

This is looking more and more like the hot potato. But giving just a quick summary without getting too deep into the specifics here are some things that could trigger the coup.

Politicians dictating the structure of the military. (Placing people in key positions who are more loyal to Thaksin than to who they should be loyal to.) No army will willingly hand it’s weapons to the enemy.

Starting to remove the teeth from the new constitution. (Laws that keep politicians honest.)

Overturning the Constitutional tribunal ruling on the Banned TRT. (General disrespect for the law and self serving actions.)

I see those as flash points that could trigger a coup sooner than later. From what I see that is all planned in the first weeks work for the PPP.

This is all a bit early to comment on, so lets see what happens over the next few days.

"Elected" politicians determining the structure of the military is the way it works in all modern democracies. But yes I do see it as a potential cause of conflict in Thailand. I think the generals are already getting a little worried. http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/19Jan2008_news13.php

The military certainly needs to have their wings clipped and be kept out of politics if democracy is to have a go in Thailand.

Removing the teeth from the new constitution? Well why not scrap it altogether and put it to a referendum for the people to decide under a freely elected government this time round. Not a PPP only style constitution, but one with endorsement from all parties including the Democrats. I honestly believe that even the Democrats don't want to see a constitution where the military have the right to step in and seize power any time they don't like the way things are going.

Overturning the Constitutional Court ruling on banned TRT politicians? Well, any challenge would have to be done through due legal process there and so it wouldn't just be up to the government of the day. Although I somehow suspect that the courts tend to lean towards the political power of the day and are not above the odd bit of political interference themselves. So long as it looks all legal and above board I cant see a problem there. Surely the courts wouldn't pass such a thing if it wasn't legal?

Personally, I think the generals are in a bit of a bind at the moment. If they move in too quickly and stage another coup, they will be exposed for what they really are;-- just a bunch of thugs with guns taking over a democratically elected government. And if they wait too long they risk being neutered. Personally, I think Samak will go for an election when things grind to a halt in order to head of the generals eye on power.

I did not see the military as wanting to get involved prior to the coup, there are enough factors to show their hand was forced. The fact that all they did was work at undoing the damage Thaksin did does not reflect a desire to rule. They set a goal and that is what they did. blood was already running.

The constitution was voted and accepted widely by the Thai people. The only areas where it was voted down was where people it lower educational attainments were listening to pro Thaksin people. I am very sure the people who voted it down had no Idea what they were doing as it would take someone with at least a high school diploma to begin to grasp the context of that lengthy document.

I think overturning the court may be the wrong term, but Pardon may be correct. I am not sure on that. The only problem is essentially Thaksin would be pardoning himself through his proxy Samak. That is why I see that as a hot spot and total disrespect.

The last part I agree, they need a reason to move, however I don’t see them as waiting very long. I would say before Thaksin’s intend return date. Thaksin wont come back unless the ball in in his court. By then the PPP will have already started to dismantle things.

[younghusband]

This is looking more and more like the hot potato. But giving just a quick summary without getting too deep into the specifics here are some things that could trigger the coup.

Politicians dictating the structure of the military. (Placing people in key positions who are more loyal to Thaksin than to who they should be loyal to.) No army will willingly hand it’s weapons to the enemy.

Starting to remove the teeth from the new constitution. (Laws that keep politicians honest.)

Overturning the Constitutional tribunal ruling on the Banned TRT. (General disrespect for the law and self serving actions.)

I see those as flash points that could trigger a coup sooner than later. From what I see that is all planned in the first weeks work for the PPP.

This is all a bit early to comment on, so lets see what happens over the next few days.

"Elected" politicians determining the structure of the military is the way it works in all modern democracies. But yes I do see it as a potential cause of conflict in Thailand. I think the generals are already getting a little worried. http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/19Jan2008_news13.php

The military certainly needs to have their wings clipped and be kept out of politics if democracy is to have a go in Thailand.

Removing the teeth from the new constitution? Well why not scrap it altogether and put it to a referendum for the people to decide under a freely elected government this time round. Not a PPP only style constitution, but one with endorsement from all parties including the Democrats. I honestly believe that even the Democrats don't want to see a constitution where the military have the right to step in and seize power any time they don't like the way things are going.

Overturning the Constitutional Court ruling on banned TRT politicians? Well, any challenge would have to be done through due legal process there and so it wouldn't just be up to the government of the day. Although I somehow suspect that the courts tend to lean towards the political power of the day and are not above the odd bit of political interference themselves. So long as it looks all legal and above board I cant see a problem there. Surely the courts wouldn't pass such a thing if it wasn't legal?

Personally, I think the generals are in a bit of a bind at the moment. If they move in too quickly and stage another coup, they will be exposed for what they really are;-- just a bunch of thugs with guns taking over a democratically elected government. And if they wait too long they risk being neutered. Personally, I think Samak will go for an election when things grind to a halt in order to head of the generals eye on power.

I did not see the military as wanting to get involved prior to the coup, there are enough factors to show their hand was forced. The fact that all they did was work at undoing the damage Thaksin did does not reflect a desire to rule. They set a goal and that is what they did. blood was already running.

The constitution was voted and accepted widely by the Thai people. The only areas where it was voted down was where people it lower educational attainments were listening to pro Thaksin people. I am very sure the people who voted it down had no Idea what they were doing as it would take someone with at least a high school diploma to begin to grasp the context of that lengthy document.

I think overturning the court may be the wrong term, but Pardon may be correct. I am not sure on that. The only problem is essentially Thaksin would be pardoning himself through his proxy Samak. That is why I see that as a hot spot and total disrespect.

The last part I agree, they need a reason to move, however I don’t see them as waiting very long. I would say before Thaksin’s intend return date. Thaksin wont come back unless the ball in in his court. By then the PPP will have already started to dismantle things.

Even by the standards of this poster this is a catalogue of confusion, error and wilful wrongheadedness.I counted at least eight errors in the first two paragraphs before I gave up.Can anyone improve on that tally?

[John K]

This is looking more and more like the hot potato. But giving just a quick summary without getting too deep into the specifics here are some things that could trigger the coup.

Politicians dictating the structure of the military. (Placing people in key positions who are more loyal to Thaksin than to who they should be loyal to.) No army will willingly hand it’s weapons to the enemy.

Starting to remove the teeth from the new constitution. (Laws that keep politicians honest.)

Overturning the Constitutional tribunal ruling on the Banned TRT. (General disrespect for the law and self serving actions.)

I see those as flash points that could trigger a coup sooner than later. From what I see that is all planned in the first weeks work for the PPP.

This is all a bit early to comment on, so lets see what happens over the next few days.

"Elected" politicians determining the structure of the military is the way it works in all modern democracies. But yes I do see it as a potential cause of conflict in Thailand. I think the generals are already getting a little worried. http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/19Jan2008_news13.php

The military certainly needs to have their wings clipped and be kept out of politics if democracy is to have a go in Thailand.

Removing the teeth from the new constitution? Well why not scrap it altogether and put it to a referendum for the people to decide under a freely elected government this time round. Not a PPP only style constitution, but one with endorsement from all parties including the Democrats. I honestly believe that even the Democrats don't want to see a constitution where the military have the right to step in and seize power any time they don't like the way things are going.

Overturning the Constitutional Court ruling on banned TRT politicians? Well, any challenge would have to be done through due legal process there and so it wouldn't just be up to the government of the day. Although I somehow suspect that the courts tend to lean towards the political power of the day and are not above the odd bit of political interference themselves. So long as it looks all legal and above board I cant see a problem there. Surely the courts wouldn't pass such a thing if it wasn't legal?

Personally, I think the generals are in a bit of a bind at the moment. If they move in too quickly and stage another coup, they will be exposed for what they really are;-- just a bunch of thugs with guns taking over a democratically elected government. And if they wait too long they risk being neutered. Personally, I think Samak will go for an election when things grind to a halt in order to head of the generals eye on power.

I did not see the military as wanting to get involved prior to the coup, there are enough factors to show their hand was forced. The fact that all they did was work at undoing the damage Thaksin did does not reflect a desire to rule. They set a goal and that is what they did. blood was already running.

The constitution was voted and accepted widely by the Thai people. The only areas where it was voted down was where people it lower educational attainments were listening to pro Thaksin people. I am very sure the people who voted it down had no Idea what they were doing as it would take someone with at least a high school diploma to begin to grasp the context of that lengthy document.

I think overturning the court may be the wrong term, but Pardon may be correct. I am not sure on that. The only problem is essentially Thaksin would be pardoning himself through his proxy Samak. That is why I see that as a hot spot and total disrespect.

The last part I agree, they need a reason to move, however I don’t see them as waiting very long. I would say before Thaksin’s intend return date. Thaksin wont come back unless the ball in in his court. By then the PPP will have already started to dismantle things.

Even by the standards of this poster this is a catalogue of confusion, error and wilful wrongheadedness.I counted at least eight errors in the first two paragraphs before I gave up.Can anyone improve on that tally?

And they would be? Your words are meaningless unless you can back them up.

[ando]

The constitution was voted and accepted widely by the Thai people.

Hey, constitutions in Thailand are two bob a dozen. (that's 2x10 cents a dozen for our merican brothers).

It shouldn't be too hard to put a new one together that is fully supported by all parties.

The current constitution was crafted by a military dictatorship and offered to the people with no other choice. I think the general consensus is that the people accepted it out of frustration in an effort to get things moving back towards a democracy, -- however limited that might be under the terms of this constitution.

A constitution that exonerates military individuals for treasonable acts and allows the military to seize political power under force of arms is not one I think that would be favoured by any party or indeed the vast majority of the people if given a fair and free choice.

[younghusband]

This is looking more and more like the hot potato. But giving just a quick summary without getting too deep into the specifics here are some things that could trigger the coup.

Politicians dictating the structure of the military. (Placing people in key positions who are more loyal to Thaksin than to who they should be loyal to.) No army will willingly hand it’s weapons to the enemy.

Starting to remove the teeth from the new constitution. (Laws that keep politicians honest.)

Overturning the Constitutional tribunal ruling on the Banned TRT. (General disrespect for the law and self serving actions.)

I see those as flash points that could trigger a coup sooner than later. From what I see that is all planned in the first weeks work for the PPP.

This is all a bit early to comment on, so lets see what happens over the next few days.

"Elected" politicians determining the structure of the military is the way it works in all modern democracies. But yes I do see it as a potential cause of conflict in Thailand. I think the generals are already getting a little worried. http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/19Jan2008_news13.php

The military certainly needs to have their wings clipped and be kept out of politics if democracy is to have a go in Thailand.

Removing the teeth from the new constitution? Well why not scrap it altogether and put it to a referendum for the people to decide under a freely elected government this time round. Not a PPP only style constitution, but one with endorsement from all parties including the Democrats. I honestly believe that even the Democrats don't want to see a constitution where the military have the right to step in and seize power any time they don't like the way things are going.

Overturning the Constitutional Court ruling on banned TRT politicians? Well, any challenge would have to be done through due legal process there and so it wouldn't just be up to the government of the day. Although I somehow suspect that the courts tend to lean towards the political power of the day and are not above the odd bit of political interference themselves. So long as it looks all legal and above board I cant see a problem there. Surely the courts wouldn't pass such a thing if it wasn't legal?

Personally, I think the generals are in a bit of a bind at the moment. If they move in too quickly and stage another coup, they will be exposed for what they really are;-- just a bunch of thugs with guns taking over a democratically elected government. And if they wait too long they risk being neutered. Personally, I think Samak will go for an election when things grind to a halt in order to head of the generals eye on power.

I did not see the military as wanting to get involved prior to the coup, there are enough factors to show their hand was forced. The fact that all they did was work at undoing the damage Thaksin did does not reflect a desire to rule. They set a goal and that is what they did. blood was already running.

The constitution was voted and accepted widely by the Thai people. The only areas where it was voted down was where people it lower educational attainments were listening to pro Thaksin people. I am very sure the people who voted it down had no Idea what they were doing as it would take someone with at least a high school diploma to begin to grasp the context of that lengthy document.

I think overturning the court may be the wrong term, but Pardon may be correct. I am not sure on that. The only problem is essentially Thaksin would be pardoning himself through his proxy Samak. That is why I see that as a hot spot and total disrespect.

The last part I agree, they need a reason to move, however I don’t see them as waiting very long. I would say before Thaksin’s intend return date. Thaksin wont come back unless the ball in in his court. By then the PPP will have already started to dismantle things.

Even by the standards of this poster this is a catalogue of confusion, error and wilful wrongheadedness.I counted at least eight errors in the first two paragraphs before I gave up.Can anyone improve on that tally?

And they would be? Your words are meaningless unless you can back them up.

With all due respect I can't really be bothered to argue with someone like you.However if there is any serious interest from other quarters (PM me if you like) I'll list out the errors.However I'm sure most people on whatever side of the political divide can decipher what is misleading nonsense and what is not.