How Does The Air Quality In Chiang Mai Affect You?

[Ulysses G.]

The results as they stand now show more people saying they are bothered by the air pollution all the time or often than those who say hardly ever or never, so I don't think it's fair to keep asserting that it's just a few who are making alot of noise. And as for complaining about the complainers, if such comments are in reference to earlier threads, then fair enough. But it's not fair to offer a poll & then jump on people for stating their opinion.

I'm not very good with statistics, but I don't think that you are reading these correctly.

Around 65% of respondents have been saying that they are bothered very little by air quality in Chiang Mai, since the beginning of the poll (although it has gone up and down a little bit from time to time).

Only about 35% have been saying that they are bothered a lot, but they seem to get far more attention than those who feel comfortable which is exactly what I am trying to point out here (and it has more to do with telling the truth than preserving my business).

Edited January 3, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[p1p]

The results as they stand now show more people saying they are bothered by the air pollution all the time or often than those who say hardly ever or never, so I don't think it's fair to keep asserting that it's just a few who are making alot of noise. And as for complaining about the complainers, if such comments are in reference to earlier threads, then fair enough. But it's not fair to offer a poll & then jump on people for stating their opinion.

I'm not very good with statistics, but I don't think that you are reading these correctly.

Around 65% of respondents have been saying that they are bothered very little by air quality in Chiang Mai, since the beginning of the poll (although it has gone up and down a little bit from time to time).

Only about 35% have been saying that they are bothered a lot, but they seem to get far more attention than those who feel comfortable which is exactly what I am trying to point out here (and it has more to do with telling the truth than preserving my business).

UG, I'm afraid you may have mis-read the results, although they may well have changed since you posted. As at 945am today:

Those bothered all the time during normal years: 8 people totaling 14.55% of the sample

Those bothered often during normal years: 17 people totaling 30.91% of the sample

Those bothered once in a while during normal years: 11 people totaling 20.00% of the sample

The total of these three is 36 people or 65.46% of the people who voted by 9.45 am today are bothered by CM pollution in normal years, at least for some period.

Those who are bothered very seldom are 12 people or 21.82%. The implication of the answer here is that they ARE bothered, but not much.

Only 7 people, or 12.73% of the (statistically irrelevant) sample say they are not bothered at all.

I can only add that I and both of my younger children have had to seek medical assistance and oxygen during four of the last ten years due to the pollution levels. According to our close neighbour, a pathologist and previously Dean of Maharaj medical school, we are only a very small drop in the ocean of the over 1 million people who go to medical clinics and hospitals with problems related to the pollution during the bad months every year.

[Bananaman]

I think to some extent a number of us are missing the point here. Just because you don't experience any immediate symptoms or noticeable effects from exposure to Chiang Mai's frequently dangerous levels of pollution, does not mean that you are not being affected by them, nor does it mean that you are immune to the carcinogenic properties of those nasty PM-10 particles that lodge themselves deep down in the folds of your lung tissue. While I concede that all of us have free choice in where we decide to live and it's up to the individual to decide whether Chiang Mai's positive characteristics outweigh the possibilities of cancer or other serious long-term health problems, let's not kid ourselves for one minute that we are somehow invincible. Sure you may be lucky and be like one of those guys who smokes 2 packs of ciggies a day all his life and lives to be an octogenarian but then again you might not. Somewhat like those who are aware of the consequences of their smoking habits, I figure Chiang Mai is something I'm going to have to give up sooner or later (cue forked-tongued remarks from the "well if you don't like it" brigade).

I'm definitely not the first to have come to this conclusion and I'm sure I won't be the last.

Just my tuppence ha'pennies worth.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Bananaman

[Ulysses G.]

I guess we have different interpretations of: Those bothered "once in a while" during normal years.

To me, and I wrote the answers, "once in a while" is not very much, which would still be about 55% are not bothered much, (although it has tended to be 65% as opposed to 35% for most of the pole, although it moves up and down). I voted "once in a while myself" and I am bothered very little.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

I think to some extent a number of us are missing the point here. Just because you don't experience any immediate symptoms or noticeable effects from exposure to Chiang Mai's frequently dangerous levels of pollution, does not mean that you are not being affected by them, nor does it mean that you are immune to the carcinogenic properties of those nasty PM-10 particles that lodge themselves deep down in the folds of your lung tissue.

I agree with this and cetainly agree that something should be done to reduce pollution levels for longterm residents and locals, but my main point is that tourists shouldn't be scared off by the people claiming that they will be uncomfortable here. Most won't, and they are not going to come down with cancer or even contribute towards cancer in two weeks visiting Chiang Mai.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[lannarebirth]

The amount of time and energy and space devoted to this topic is what disturbs me the most. If anyone hasn't noticed, it's yet another beautiful day outside. Get out if you can and enjoy it.

[PeaceBlondie]

It's rather late in the poll, but we have different definitions of "bothers me." A hazy view of Doi Suthep does not bother my lungs or cause me to die from cancer, as my mother did 20 years after she stopped smoking. 'Bothers me' would be having to seek medical help, as p1p points out. 'Bothers me' would have to compare with the winter I spent in Hua Hin: howling storm winds that lasted for a week and blew tiles off the roof; jellyfish that stung like the fires of Hel1; a mad boxer dog that bit me and I had to have shots against rabies; flotsam and jetsam greater than the Titanic washing ashore on our beach; a bacterial infection that no doctor in Bangkok could cure, etc. Chiang Mai is a great place, in comparison.

Bangkok, on the other hand, is no more typical of Thailand than the bordellos of Pattaya are typical of the Gulf of Thailand. I'm going to Bang-cock tonight, and let's hope I don't catch cancer or emphysema just crossing Suriwong Road.

[vagabond48]

I guess we have different interpretations of: Those bothered "once in a while" during normal years.

To me, and I wrote the answers, "once in a while" is not very much, which would still be about 55% are not bothered much, (although it has tended to be 65% as opposed to 35% for most of the pole, although it moves up and down). I voted "once in a while myself" and I am bothered very little.

Sorry to disagree with you but these statistics don't need to be interpreted.

14+% It bothers me all the time during normal years. If I had a brain, I would move.

33+% It bothers me often during normal years

That's over 47% that are bothered a lot while only 33% are never or hardly bothered. No interpretation needed. The rest of the 19+% hovers in between.

Whether air pollution effects us or not, I don't think making light of it, will not encourage people and gov't agencies to take action to improve the air quality.

I ride my bicycle everywhere and I use it as "my choice" of transportation. Although, it doesn't seem to effect my general health (yet), I have got to believe that riding in CM traffic is shortening the life of my healthy lungs.

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry to disagree with you but these statistics don't need to be interpreted.

14+% It bothers me all the time during normal years. If I had a brain, I would move.

33+% It bothers me often during normal years

That's over 47% that are bothered a lot while only 33% are never or hardly bothered. No interpretation needed. The rest of the 19+% hovers in between.

Sorry, but I strongly disagee, and I wrote the poll. In fact, a mod added an extra anawer - "it doesn't bother me at all" - that I hadn't intended to offer and didn't vote for.

I say that the 19+ (bothered once in a while) is in the bothered little category. As PeaceBlondie says, we are all using different interpretations of "bothers me" and if we use PeaceBlondies definition of having to seek medical help, then I would change my vote to "never bothers me at all. When I say that I am bothered once in a while DURING A NORMAL YEAR, I mean that I might cough a lot 2 or three times during the whole fire season.

Looks like I wasn't exact enough about the word "bother".

Edited January 3, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

If I substituted the word "annoy" for "bother", does that clear things up at all?

If something - like the traffic here - annoys me all of the time, it would make me want to change locations. If it annoyed me often, I might want to leave also, but if it only annoyed me once in a while, I would stick around.

The traffic (and the driving) in Chiang Mai annoy me a lot more than the air quality, but maybe that's just me.

[PeaceBlondie]

Not that we should start the poll again, but "Does the air quality definitely impair your health?"

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

If I substituted the word "annoy" for "bother", does that clear things up at all?

If something - like the traffic here - annoys me all of the time, it would make me want to change locations. If it annoyed me often, I might want to leave also, but if it only annoyed me once in a while, I would stick around.

The traffic (and the driving) in Chiang Mai annoy me a lot more than the air quality, but maybe that's just me.

I think UG wants a "do over" or best of three. Looks like 50+% plus answer very bothered or often bothered.

Just try doing this survey 2 months from now and I would bet the 50% turns into 65%.

Crow??? it's what's for dinner

I used to design public opinion surveys many years ago and a better way to measure sentiment would be

I am highly affected or bothered by

I am somewhat affected or bothered by

I am somewhat NOT affected or bothered by

I am highly NOT affected or bothered by

Don't know/ no opinion

[ZEAK]

I think to some extent a number of us are missing the point here. Just because you don't experience any immediate symptoms or noticeable effects from exposure to Chiang Mai's frequently dangerous levels of pollution, does not mean that you are not being affected by them, nor does it mean that you are immune to the carcinogenic properties of those nasty PM-10 particles that lodge themselves deep down in the folds of your lung tissue. While I concede that all of us have free choice in where we decide to live and it's up to the individual to decide whether Chiang Mai's positive characteristics outweigh the possibilities of cancer or other serious long-term health problems, let's not kid ourselves for one minute that we are somehow invincible. Sure you may be lucky and be like one of those guys who smokes 2 packs of ciggies a day all his life and lives to be an octogenarian but then again you might not. Somewhat like those who are aware of the consequences of their smoking habits, I figure Chiang Mai is something I'm going to have to give up sooner or later (cue forked-tongued remarks from the "well if you don't like it" brigade).

I'm definitely not the first to have come to this conclusion and I'm sure I won't be the last.

Just my tuppence ha'pennies worth.

So true. Its a cumulative effect, and I shudder to think about my lungs if I was to remain in CM for 20 years sucking exhaust fumes day in day out and then treated to thick burn-off haze for 3 months every year. Bothers or annoyed, I just know that if the air I am breathing in, smells horrible, its most likely not good for me.

I also think that this a good topic to keep alive, because if we all just say, "mai ben rai", and leave it at that, well, what chance of change is there?

A thread I would love to see is one about all of the possible solutions to better improve the air quality here. With so many members, I KNOW that there would be many great ideas. From finding out what, if anything the pollution control department is doing to educate people about it, to getting the media to help promote the idea.

Ok, I'll take off my rose colored glasses now.

Cheers

[mcgriffith]

The amount of time and energy and space devoted to this topic is what disturbs me the most. If anyone hasn't noticed, it's yet another beautiful day outside. Get out if you can and enjoy it.

It's rather late in the poll, but we have different definitions of "bothers me." A hazy view of Doi Suthep does not bother my lungs or cause me to die from cancer, as my mother did 20 years after she stopped smoking. 'Bothers me' would be having to seek medical help, as p1p points out. 'Bothers me' would have to compare with the winter I spent in Hua Hin: howling storm winds that lasted for a week and blew tiles off the roof; jellyfish that stung like the fires of Hel1; a mad boxer dog that bit me and I had to have shots against rabies; flotsam and jetsam greater than the Titanic washing ashore on our beach; a bacterial infection that no doctor in Bangkok could cure, etc. Chiang Mai is a great place, in comparison.

Bangkok, on the other hand, is no more typical of Thailand than the bordellos of Pattaya are typical of the Gulf of Thailand. I'm going to Bang-cock tonight, and let's hope I don't catch cancer or emphysema just crossing Suriwong Road.

So, uh PB, I assume you will NOT be visiting Hua Hin on this trip?!

PS You left out the motorbike hoodlums who tried to hijack your bike by throwing a stick through the wheels.....

[Jingthing]

It was the one reason I decided not to move to Chiang Mai.

[lannarebirth]

When I lived in seattle, I had neighbors who complained about the rain all the time. When I lived in San Francisco my neighbors would complain about how expensive everthing was. When I lived in Palm Springs my neighbors would complain how hot it would get. When I lived in New Mexico my neighbors would complain about how far they had to drive to "civilization". When i lived in Baja California expats would complain about bad roadsand warm beer. When I lived in Tuscany expats would complain about shops being closed in the afternoons. Now i live in a Third World country.

The forests here are going to burn. It will either be in a controlled manner or in a way that this govenment will be impotent to control. The latter will cause loss of life, property and probably a lot more smoke than the controlled burns. I don't agree with the field burnings, but that is the way they farm here. They were doing it that way long before I came along. The farmers believe it enriches the soil somehow. If that's true, stopping the practice will entail cutting and tilling the old vegetation and adding fertilizer. That will either financially cripple the farmer or prices will be passed along and food commodities may double in price, as many are forecasting. People burning trash, I hate it and don't do it and always mention it to my puyai ban when I see it, in the hopes he will enforce a curtailment. Fumes from cars? Well that's easy. Don't live in a city.

This is a developing nation. It needs so many things in so many areas. Would you put funding for pollution control before education? I wouldn't. Before infrastructure? Before healthcare? Before a defense force? There's just not that much tax base.

One of the reasons many people come here is because the cost of living is cheap. The reason it's cheap is because many people are poor and there is very little social safety net here outside immediate families. In America I was paying in excess of 50% of my income for that safety net. If I had an accident a medic would respond in minutes. If my neighbor starteda fire the fire department would be there in minutes and he'd be fined so heavily you wouldn't believe it. That's just not how things are here. I don't want to sound like one of those "love it or leave it" people, but to a certain extent one needs to "accept it".

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

When I lived in seattle, I had neighbors who complained about the rain all the time. When I lived in San Francisco my neighbors would complain about how expensive everthing was. When I lived in Palm Springs my neighbors would complain how hot it would get. When I lived in New Mexico my neighbors would complain about how far they had to drive to "civilization". When i lived in Baja California expats would complain about bad roadsand warm beer. When I lived in Tuscany expats would complain about shops being closed in the afternoons. Now i live in a Third World country.

That's just not how things are here. I don't want to sound like one of those "love it or leave it" people, but to a certain extent one needs to "accept it".

Lanna that is a good post demonstrating quality perspective. I would agree. Can you imagine how many people would want to live in CM if the air was clean, internet was fast and roads were safe? Prices would shoot up quite a bit. The 2-3 months of hel_l air is one of the main factors keeping things cheap here. I say great and just go somewhere for those months or stay inside with the air cleaners blazing. It definitely is a cumulative health damage issue. That's wonderful some people are completely unaffected but plenty are affected like myself. I guess we can be thankful its only about 2-3 months of the year.

[Mapguy]

When I lived in seattle, I had neighbors who complained about the rain all the time. When I lived in San Francisco my neighbors would complain about how expensive everthing was. When I lived in Palm Springs my neighbors would complain how hot it would get. When I lived in New Mexico my neighbors would complain about how far they had to drive to "civilization". When i lived in Baja California expats would complain about bad roadsand warm beer. When I lived in Tuscany expats would complain about shops being closed in the afternoons. Now i live in a Third World country.

That's just not how things are here. I don't want to sound like one of those "love it or leave it" people, but to a certain extent one needs to "accept it".

Lanna that is a good post demonstrating quality perspective. I would agree. Can you imagine how many people would want to live in CM if the air was clean, internet was fast and roads were safe? Prices would shoot up quite a bit. The 2-3 months of hel_l air is one of the main factors keeping things cheap here. I say great and just go somewhere for those months or stay inside with the air cleaners blazing. It definitely is a cumulative health damage issue. That's wonderful some people are completely unaffected but plenty are affected like myself. I guess we can be thankful its only about 2-3 months of the year.

For a recent comprehensive and very well-sourced article on this topic go to another thread on this site devoted to Air Quality & Pollution. It is much more satisfying than a straw poll.

It was a lovely day today, in early January, except for the gaseous heavy traffic we endure every day. The heavy pollution is basically in the months just before the rains begin. The constant stuff --- air pollution due to vehicular traffic primarily --- is heaviest during the "high (tourist) season" but still persistent year-round. Because of these factors, I have been physically affected immediately, and I am aware of the long-term dangers of such exposure.

I agree that a certain degree of acceptance is called for. It is not possible to change things overnight, but ignoring or denying a dangerous reality (both medically and economically) certainly isn't going to help. Bad publicity was quite justified last year, and was probably a significent reason the first calendar quarter's tourism in 2007 was substantially lower than normal. Now, THAT got a few people's attention. And such publicity should continue to get attention. When the Thai economic muscle gets in back of a real campaign to improve things, then some things might start to happen.

[sabaijai]

Hmm.

The poll sample is rather small.

Poll choices are quite limited, ie there aren't many alternative opinions accounted for.

With public polls such as this the participants are self-selecting. More reliable and valid results would follow when contacting a random sample of CM residents.

[BossHogg]

I have been an asthmatic since childhood and the air quality has never had any effect on me in the 5 years ive been in Chiangmai at any time of year. The city does lose some its charm when you cant see the surrounding mountains but thats the only ill effect ive experienced

[p1p]

This discussion is pretty pointless. The CM Health authorities have statistics showing how the pollution levels here have affected the health of the population over a period. I shall try to get hold of them.

[Jingthing]

This discussion is pretty pointless. The CM Health authorities have statistics showing how the pollution levels here have affected the health of the population over a period. I shall try to get hold of them.

Agreed, alot of the damage from such bad air is hidden until it comes to hit you later. Smoke a ciggie today, you are OK. Then you get lung cancer later. Same difference. Y'all that live there shouldn't be rationalizing about how it isn't that bad. It is that bad and the world knows it.

Edited January 4, 2008 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

This discussion is pretty pointless. The CM Health authorities have statistics showing how the pollution levels here have affected the health of the population over a period. I shall try to get hold of them.

Agreed, alot of the damage from such bad air is hidden until it comes to hit you later. Smoke a ciggie today, you are OK. Then you get lung cancer later. Same difference. Y'all that live there shouldn't be rationalizing about how it isn't that bad. It is that bad and the world knows it.

I'm not rationalizing that "it isn't that bad", or that "it's good" or that "it's very bad". All I'm saying is no one on here is going to change it beyond the changes they make in their own lives and i'm just sick of all this whining.

Many people think Seattle is a nice place to live. when I lived there it rained 10 months per year and I personally wasn't able to stop it. The suicide rate there was way above the national average as the weather cast a pall over everything. If I whined about it all the time that wouldn't have stopped it . In the end I decided I'd be happier elsewhere when I weighed all the plusses and minusses. Everyone has to do that for themselves, wherever they live. You did it and decided not to live here. I did it and decided it was risk factor I could tolerate. What I didn't do was try to disturb other people with my decision making process.

[Jingthing]

Agreed, everyone needs to make their own evaluation. However, some people considering Chiang Mai may not fully realize that the rates of respiratory disease and mortality are very high, so in my view, more info is always better than less info. Those big particles that get into your lungs can really kill you. Sorry, reality bites.

(Debbie Downer is my best friend ....)

Edited January 4, 2008 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

Agreed, everyone needs to make their own evaluation. However, some people considering Chiang Mai may not fully realize that the rates of respiratory disease and mortality are very high, so in my view, more info is always better than less info. Those big particles that get into your lungs can really kill you. Sorry, reality bites.

(Debbie Downer is my best friend ....)

Reality I can live with. It's the whining that gets on my nerves.

I'd really love to hear what these people are doing themselves to mitigate the air pollution. I for instance plant a couple of hundred trees per year. One vehicle serves 6 people in our household. Never use a song taew or tuk tuk if a bus will put me near the same destination. For water and soil we build check dams for water retention and plant Ya Faek to prevent soil erosion. We avoid trips to the city and if we go do many things at one time. We don't burn. Would love to hear what others are doing positively.

Edited January 4, 2008 by lannarebirth

[NaiGreg]

Lots of divergent opinions and stories about the air quality in CM. People are getting anxious. But it is not all that difficult to understand. imho, it all boils down to exactly 3 irrefutable statements.

1. For health considerations, the only opionions that matter are those of qualified health and air quality professionals. Look at the record, there are some days every year around March-April when health warnings/advisories are issued for residents of the northern provinvces. This year and next year, too. Period. End of story. Not every day has an advisory, just a few. Talk to your doctor if you wish.

2. Jeez Louise! Warn the nature lovers to avoid CM during the peak of the hazy/smoggy season ... health hazards or not. Their travel photos will look awful (like a bad day in Beijing.) Just a simple courtesy to the good folks that want to visit and see Chiang Mai at it's best (or see it at all!) Travel agents need to be honest about this. Travel around here can be a depressing experience on the really bad days.

3. There really are people in government, NGO's and universities who are trying to find solutions. Will they be successful? Maybe not in our current lifetimes. Will TV members' rants be helpful? Maybe not.

Well, I guess this really will be the last CM air quality thread ever!

[spectrum]

Agreed, everyone needs to make their own evaluation. However, some people considering Chiang Mai may not fully realize that the rates of respiratory disease and mortality are very high, so in my view, more info is always better than less info. Those big particles that get into your lungs can really kill you. Sorry, reality bites.

(Debbie Downer is my best friend ....)

Reality I can live with. It's the whining that gets on my nerves.

I'd really love to hear what these people are doing themselves to mitigate the air pollution. I for instance plant a couple of hundred trees per year. One vehicle serves 6 people in our household. Never use a song taew or tuk tuk if a bus will put me near the same destination. For water and soil we build check dams for water retention and plant Ya Faek to prevent soil erosion. We avoid trips to the city and if we go do many things at one time. We don't burn. Would love to hear what others are doing positively.

Np cars or motorsais is a very good start. However, better public transport is needed in CM.

[lannarebirth]

Agreed, everyone needs to make their own evaluation. However, some people considering Chiang Mai may not fully realize that the rates of respiratory disease and mortality are very high, so in my view, more info is always better than less info. Those big particles that get into your lungs can really kill you. Sorry, reality bites.

(Debbie Downer is my best friend ....)

Reality I can live with. It's the whining that gets on my nerves.

I'd really love to hear what these people are doing themselves to mitigate the air pollution. I for instance plant a couple of hundred trees per year. One vehicle serves 6 people in our household. Never use a song taew or tuk tuk if a bus will put me near the same destination. For water and soil we build check dams for water retention and plant Ya Faek to prevent soil erosion. We avoid trips to the city and if we go do many things at one time. We don't burn. Would love to hear what others are doing positively.

Np cars or motorsais is a very good start. However, better public transport is needed in CM.

Lots of initiatives on the table for mass transit in Chiang Mai. Ironically the 26 new busses which are very nice and cheap and have good routes are almost always empty. I am not a fan of Thaksin Shinawatra at all, but since his gang is now back in power I would expect transit monies to start getting funneled to Chiang Mai in the next year or two. Maybe someday soon we can all complain about the road construction instead.

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=1632

http://angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/...php/t-1668.html

http://far-eastbusiness.com/chiang-mai-new...system-by-2010/

http://www.chiangmairealty.com/chiangmaibts.htm

Edited January 4, 2008 by lannarebirth

[realthaideal]

You said quite a mouthful there Nai G, but if you're saying (like from your title), "Hey let's put this to bed till the problem is there big time again," and "Hey let's stop hemming and hawing like so many squawking crows about the air and pollution," I'm all for it. It's rapidly becoming FORUM POLLUTION. The problem is there. We live in a basin anyway. Most of SE Asia is a basin as well. As for local efforts, there are people working on it. There are ppl we can make the effort to contact ourselves who are working to solve or mitigate the problems, if we want to be part of the solutions as well. But otherwise it's only so much babble and complaining. Suddenly burger and pizza threads are not nearly as boring!

[Ulysses G.]

I have been an asthmatic since childhood and the air quality has never had any effect on me in the 5 years I've been in Chiangmai at any time of year.