Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[Gary A]

This entire thread is like a traffic accident with injuries. I don't want to look but simply can't help myself. It is pretty obvious that opinions are split with both sides having NO idea of what actually happened. Myself certainly included. My opinion is just as useless as anyone else's, so I will keep it to myself. I am a bit skeptical that all the facts will come out but certainly what does come out will be far more accurate than a lot of the bull sh!t I am reading.

[Khun ?]

Claymore

What don't you understand about it being a freak show. No matter how many times she changes her story, now she has little credibility. Nothing will ever come from acting like an inhabitant of a crack house in the

middle of drugland Thailand. Thailand has a terrible problem with YABA and other psychotic mind altering drugs

that make people very dangerous and aggressive. Pai seems to be a place where alot of these drugs are known

for. If the looks and reputation of this group don't give reason for second thoughts, I don't know what would.

Rough neighborhood with rough looking participants.

I don't think anyone is giving the police a out, but there sure is extenuating circumstances. Manslaughter most likely!

I am not so sure she may of done same as in the past and attacked the lone policeman this time, which may of been where the statement came from that she made about someone just come up and punched her in the face.

It does seem that he did have to retrieve his weapon from his motorbike. Why would he have to do this after confronting a quarreling group. No one has come up with any facts that this particular policeman has a habit

of being involved in other incidents of questionable nature for his work.

Wrong time, wrong place and certainly regrettable for everyone!

[PadThaiGuy]

An off duty cop, pumps two accidental shots into a farang tourist, then another accidental shot into the girl, runs off, returns, and continues at his position as a Law Enforcement Officer?

[geriatrickid]

Kerryd, one thing I'll comment on. To me and alot of people (maybe its a Canadian thing) we will refer to a police out of uniform as undercover. Damian

Doubt it is a "Canadian" thing, as most Canadian police departments have numbers of non uniformed personnel that work out of uniform. These people are usually called detectives, or investigators.

wait............

wait..........

here it comes..........

D-OH.

[Khun ?]

An off duty cop, pumps two accidental shots into a farang tourist, then another accidental shot into the girl, runs off, returns, and continues at his position as a Law Enforcement Officer?

This is kind of a simple look at it. He was requested to intervene in a problem caused by the victims.

Make note it was not the first problem by these people.

So should it be said, trouble makers subdued, end of story!

He has also been charged and moved and not as the canadian news reported, involved in the investigation.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Khun ?

[PadThaiGuy]

An off duty cop, pumps two accidental shots into a farang tourist, then another accidental shot into the girl, runs off, returns, and continues at his position as a Law Enforcement Officer?

This is kind of a simple look at it. He was requested to intervene in a problem caused by the victims.

Make note it was not the first problem by these people.

So should it be said, trouble makers subdued, end of story!

Simple look?

No.

I like to see the facts distilled to get a grip on the happenings.

The Thai Police are nothing more than a Mafia.

Organized criminals.

You won't find a single Thai that disagrees with that.

[Khun ?]

Two side to this thinking then.

Trouble making drug users, crack heads at it again! Attacking the mafia

Doesn't change a thing this type of thinking.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Khun ?

[scotwumman]

Well said padthaiguy this thread in my opinion needs to keep going until the truth emerges and nobody on this thread should be silenced.

The dead boy cannot speak for himself.

[geriatrickid]

Well said padthaiguy this thread in my opinion needs to keep going until the truth emerges and nobody on this thread should be silenced.

The dead boy cannot speak for himself.

The person you just commended classified the police department as a criminal entity. Not some members, but every single police officer. When people make outlandish statements and condemn every single person; it's speaks to their veracity and reliability. The statement made The Thai Police are nothing more than a Mafia.Organized criminals.You won't find a single Thai that disagrees with that

is false. My Thai friends have varied opinions on the police including one who hates them with a passion. With that one exception, none of them has ever called them criminals or mafia. As I have found 3 thais that says otherwise, what does that say??? Does that mean that the police are all swell guys and gals?

He was not a Boy. Reality check - he was a full grown adult. He chose to associate himself with Carly and he was responsible for his own behaviour. That statement in no way condones or excuses his death. The other reality is that if the investigation, even if carried out by a neutral body acceptable to the most vociferous of condemners, was to clear the officer, the chant would then change to one of cover up and conspiracy. What you people want is blood revenge. For all of those condemning, you conveniently forget that you are relying on 2nd & 3rd hand accounts all of which are different. No one knows what really happened yet, not even carly or the policeman, because they have their own biased perspectives. There has been neither a completed investigation nor an official determination of cause. You can't have instant answers in a homicide like this.

[DamianMavis]

Geriatirckid...... I DO and all my friends refer to out of uniform police officers as UNDERCOVER, its like slang. I dont think I've ever heard anyone use the word DETECTIVE except in U.S. tv shows. Thanks for trying to tell me what vocabulary we use though, that was nice.

Here, go check this thread all you Thai police apologists: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...p;#entry1786803

and this one: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=116068 and this one http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=117889

Doubt it will start to get through to you that the Thai police ARE mafia but give it a read just in case something starts to crack that wall of stubborn denial.

Damian

Edited January 28, 2008 by DamianMavis

[geriatrickid]

Geriatirckid...... I DO and all my friends refer to out of uniform police officers as UNDERCOVER, its like slang. I dont think I've ever heard anyone use the word DETECTIVE except in U.S. tv shows. Thanks for trying to tell me what vocabulary we use though, that was nice.

Here, go check this thread all you Thai police apologists: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...p;#entry1786803

and this one: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=116068 and this one http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=117889

Doubt it will start to get through to you that the Thai police ARE mafia but give it a read just in case something starts to crack that wall of stubborn denial.

Damian

It would seem that it is you that is suffering from "stubborn denial". First it was a "Canadian" thing, now it's the slang that you and your friends use. Gosh, I don't know about you, but when I was living in the armpit of Ontario doing some of my stint in University and while I worked at various jobs on both coasts, I never once heard this slang. Didn't even hear it from the prison inmates I had the "joy" of helping. Heard alot of other terms, none of which were as nice though.

As for the great mafia, are the police officers that arrested the kidnappers part of the mafia too? I mean if the police were all corrupt as you and others claim, no one would have been arrested, right? Even when the police stop corrupt officers, they are condemned by you. No I am not an apologist, but I am fair.

I am trying to impress upon you that making exagerated claims and statements undercuts your position.

[Claymore]

"Not really, at least not until there's a global court system. if you mean this tragedy should be covered in international media, it is, albeit to a steadily diminishing degree, as happens with crime anywhere in the world."

No, I was responding to your earlier comment that it didn't matter who was "right" or "wrong" on a global sense. It does matter when people from an international sphere have to face off with Thailand's legal/judiciary system, and more people are watching.

True, and all the more reason it's important to view the entire context for the tragedy. This goes back to what I tried to point out earlier, i.e., if one acknowledges that the Thai law enforcement and judicial systems are corrupt, and justice cannot be had, then you must acknowledge that any verbal or physical affront to individuals who are part of that system is very, very risky.

Yeah, good point and adding insult to injury is seeing people who should know better on this forum going along with the rubbish the cops are peddling as if anything they, or their phoney witnesses, said had any merit whatsoever. All this analysing about what has been reported in the press as if the ' answer ' could be extracted is just so foolish and if anything all helps to smokescreen the bad guy's exit.

As I said before( ) justice in this country is something you stick in your drink.

Traditionally the only way to ensure justice has a hope here is massive internationally pressure. Like the incident itself this is a matter of face.

International pressure helped immensely in the Kanchanaburi case. The 'she had it coming' school of thought from cultural experts on this forum serves only to cover the main issue. Did this cop deliberately murder Leo del Pinto and turn the gun on Carly Reisig to finish off the witness, or not.

From what I am hearing from Andrew Drummond now this case is far from over and there will be developments as he says 'Sure as the lord made toffee apples' - whatever that means, but I get the gist.

'

[Danielle]

I don't understand why there is such back and forth about calling someone "undercover" instead of calling them "plain-clothes" or "detective" or even "off-duty". I think it's pretty obvious that the only meaning that it was meant to convey was that he wasn't in uniform so it may not have been obvious that he was a cop.

[Kerryd]

From what I am hearing from Andrew Drummond now this case is far from over and there will be developments as he says 'Sure as the lord made toffee apples' - whatever that means, but I get the gist.

Well, after reading Mr Drummond's apology letter in the Nation, I think it's highly unlikely he'll be unbiased in any further reporting he does. In fact, I'll bet if any further "developements" come out about Reisig, del Pinto or Fuen that show them in a less than savoury light, we won't hear about it at all.

If he reports the facts (all the facts) as they are, and lets the chips fall where they may, that would be a different kettle of fish. Somehow, I don't think that's going to happen.

[DamianMavis]

I don't understand why there is such back and forth about calling someone "undercover" instead of calling them "plain-clothes" or "detective" or even "off-duty". I think it's pretty obvious that the only meaning that it was meant to convey was that he wasn't in uniform so it may not have been obvious that he was a cop.

EXACTLY, and people know this but will argue ANYTHING to try to infer Carly is lying or changing her statement just based on a word she used to describe a cop out of uniform, a word I and others in Canada have used to mean the exact same thing. And its so insignificant its silly.

Damian

[DamianMavis]

It would seem that it is you that is suffering from "stubborn denial". First it was a "Canadian" thing, now it's the slang that you and your friends use. Gosh, I don't know about you, but when I was living in the armpit of Ontario doing some of my stint in University and while I worked at various jobs on both coasts, I never once heard this slang. Didn't even hear it from the prison inmates I had the "joy" of helping. Heard alot of other terms, none of which were as nice though.

I'm in denial because I dont accept that Carly is an evil mastermind who is lying about the police officer identifying himself which is obvious because she used the word undercover to describe him?! C'MON!!!! It should be obvious she was referring to someone out of uniform!! In Canada cops out of uniform and still doing their job are UNDERCOVER. This might not be the correct term, but it is the one that jumps to mind in our limitted understanding of police politically correct terminology... SHEESH.

As for the great mafia, are the police officers that arrested the kidnappers part of the mafia too? I mean if the police were all corrupt as you and others claim, no one would have been arrested, right? Even when the police stop corrupt officers, they are condemned by you. No I am not an apologist, but I am fair.

I never said all cops were mafia, Ive heard the same occasional stories of cops actually enforcing the REAL law and not making it up to scam some extra money out of people. I know there are some good ones. And just because the police force is corrupt doesnt mean they dont do their job too, especially when the vicitms are rich and/or powerful. I typed a big response explaining and demonstrating all the examples of what makes the police force totally corrupt... but I deleted it... most of the stories are all here on Thai visa. The police are constantly taking bribes, making up fines to extort money and sometimes doing far worse (such as kidnapping and assasinations) and those are here too, all of these things are totally illegal and much like a mafia.... but if you want to ignore all that ok man, whatever, nothing I say will make you read and accept what you are reading as an obvious problem totally out of control. I think you are one of the many falangs here that has chosen to live here and will say and believe anything to not shatter the illusion of the paradise in which you so desperately want to believe in. If anyone is ever vicitimised here you will immediately blame the vicitim, if a Thai does something wrong you will find a way to excuse it..... this is an apologist, you are not being fair minded at all. For you to dwell on the word undercover is total proof of this, it is grasping at straws and not clear thinking. She used a word that fits the description from her point of view based on where she comes from. I never even heard the term "out of uniform" until I came to this thread and I certainly never referred to a cop with no uniform as detective, didnt even realise Canada had detectives..... of course I had no cop or convict friends to correct my way of thinking.

I am trying to impress upon you that making exagerated claims and statements undercuts your position.

Damian

[sbk]

Damian, I haven't really gotten involved in this argument but I guess I need to point something out to you that you may not understand.

I also live in a small enclosed community like Pai. Not as small but definitely still small. EVERYONE knows who the police are, in uniform or out. EVERYONE can tell who is a cop and who isn't just by looking at them. Carly had been in Pai for quite some months and had already had a run-in with the police so she certainly had to have been aware that he was a policeman.

The use of the word "undercover" in this situation is a misnomer as in a small town no cop is ever "undercover" but merely "out of uniform" since undercover implies that he was trying to appear to be something he was not (as in a sting operation, for instance). It is impossible for a local policeman to work undercover in a very small community since everyone knows exactly who he is.

Perhaps she misspoke, but as a native English speaker I would never use the word undercover to describe a local cop out of uniform.

[sbk]

Damian, I would also like to add one thing here, I think in accusing people of accusing her of lying or trying to prove that she is wrong you are seriously overreacting.

She has clearly not told the entire truth, I certainly did not believe her initial story because I have lived here for 19 years and have NEVER heard of a policeman randomly assaulting some tourist woman for absolutely no reason at all. She has done herself, her dead friend and justice a severe disservice by not coming totally clean from the very beginning. And this is the point that people are trying to get across to you which you seem to fail to understand.

I don't know her, I don't know everything that happened but I do know that if she hadn't prevaricated from the very beginning then perhaps (maybe not, but certainly a better chance) justice would be served in the murder of her innocent friend.

[taxexile]

I have lived here for 19 years and have NEVER heard of a policeman randomly assaulting some tourist woman for absolutely no reason at all.

what about the double murder of tourists in kanchanaburi ??

[sbk]

I have lived here for 19 years and have NEVER heard of a policeman randomly assaulting some tourist woman for absolutely no reason at all.

what about the double murder of tourists in kanchanaburi ??

Perhaps I am recalling it incorrectly but if so please don't hesitate to correct me. As I remember the story, the couple were not some random tourists walking down the street having had no interaction with the policeman at all, if I recall correctly, they had actually been in his bar and had some interaction with him beforehand?

Carly's story was that she and her friend had been walking down the street and the policeman just walked up to her out of nowhere and punched her in the face for absolutely no reason at all except her face was painted. Well, if that were really the case and it were a common attitude among police, then the Koh Phangan police would have been assaulting tourists left right and center every month.

[Claymore]

I have lived here for 19 years and have NEVER heard of a policeman randomly assaulting some tourist woman for absolutely no reason at all.

what about the double murder of tourists in kanchanaburi ??

Perhaps I am recalling it incorrectly but if so please don't hesitate to correct me. As I remember the story, the couple were not some random tourists walking down the street having had no interaction with the policeman at all, if I recall correctly, they had actually been in his bar and had some interaction with him beforehand?

Carly's story was that she and her friend had been walking down the street and the policeman just walked up to her out of nowhere and punched her in the face for absolutely no reason at all except her face was painted. Well, if that were really the case and it were a common attitude among police, then the Koh Phangan police would have been assaulting tourists left right and center every month.

No Ko Phangnan police I rather think are noted for the routine extra Bt million they get a a month for 'drug busts'. Its a very healthy business.

[Claymore]

From what I am hearing from Andrew Drummond now this case is far from over and there will be developments as he says 'Sure as the lord made toffee apples' - whatever that means, but I get the gist.

Well, after reading Mr Drummond's apology letter in the Nation, I think it's highly unlikely he'll be unbiased in any further reporting he does. In fact, I'll bet if any further "developements" come out about Reisig, del Pinto or Fuen that show them in a less than savoury light, we won't hear about it at all.

If he reports the facts (all the facts) as they are, and lets the chips fall where they may, that would be a different kettle of fish. Somehow, I don't think that's going to happen.

Andrew Drummond lets the chips fall where they may. But I guess, if he is still investigating, which I guess he is, he will be concentrating on what happened on the night, not what happened a week or a month or two previously,which is fair enough, which was the tone of the letter to 'The Nation'.

[sbk]

I have lived here for 19 years and have NEVER heard of a policeman randomly assaulting some tourist woman for absolutely no reason at all.

what about the double murder of tourists in kanchanaburi ??

Perhaps I am recalling it incorrectly but if so please don't hesitate to correct me. As I remember the story, the couple were not some random tourists walking down the street having had no interaction with the policeman at all, if I recall correctly, they had actually been in his bar and had some interaction with him beforehand?

Carly's story was that she and her friend had been walking down the street and the policeman just walked up to her out of nowhere and punched her in the face for absolutely no reason at all except her face was painted. Well, if that were really the case and it were a common attitude among police, then the Koh Phangan police would have been assaulting tourists left right and center every month.

No Ko Phangnan police I rather think are noted for the routine extra Bt million they get a a month for 'drug busts'. Its a very healthy business.

And far more sensible than shooting the goose that laid the golden egg, wouldn't you say?

[Foggy Bottom]

I am beginning to think that there are too many daily posters in this thread who are simply adding argumentative speculation.

The thread and readers, not to mention all directly involved with "the incident", would be better served if the posters spent less time trying to push their own viewpoints, and more time adding relevent information (e.g. the posts about weapon characteristics, or police SOPs a dozen pages back). Or even, spend less time squabbling in the thread and use that time to find quotes from the international media that can be posted in as news snippets.

Yup, I admit I contributed to the speculation earlier in the thread, but way back then I was hoping we may have an early resolution to the investigation, but I guess the change of government derailed that.

Damian, I admire your passion for what you believe, but remember what the Buddha taught - we have 2 eyes, 2 ears, and one mouth - and we should learn to use them in that proportion (or something along those lines, so I am told). The same applies to all the other posters typing absolute statements enrolling every single group member into their allegation, be it police, Thais generally, Tourists, Farangs or whatever demographic group. For every generalisation, there are many exceptions...... and one day, you might want one of those exceptions on your side.

Gaz

Edited January 28, 2008 by Gaz Chiangmai

[TAWP]

100% agree with the last posts. Thailand is a great country that doesn't deserve the reputation it has abroad.

Thailand has much more to offer than cheap drugs and prostitutes. People who look for trouble and find it shoudn't deserve some much attention.

You left out human trafficking, child prostitution, slavery, corruption at every level, rescue teams shooting at each other, dangerous roads and drivers, intellectual property, etc.

Rescue teams shooting at each other is definitely, like Pad Thai, specific to Thailand, I have to agree with that. But on the other subjects, I don't think Thailand is worse than any other country in the word.

Beside the obvious Singapor, can you give the name of an othe country in Asia that is safer for foreigner than Thailand?

Japan, Korea, Taiwan to begin...

[sabaijai]

Carly and her earlier Thai boyfriend, Nui, were arrested for fighting at Be-Bop, taken to the Pai police station, tested for drugs and released without charge. There were at least a dozen witnesses to the arrest in front of Be-Bop, and non-police witnesses at the police station also reported seeing them brought in that night.

I dont want to appear pedantic but Carly Reisig was not arrested for fighting. Although there was certainly a fracas at Bebop involving her, her boyfriend and an Israeli tourist after which she admits hitting a policeman. She was indeed taken for drug testing and the result was negative.

That was the arrest, made in front of Be-Bop according to those who were present when it happened.

Wikipedia definition:

An arrest is the act of depriving a person of his or her liberty usually in relation to the investigation and prevention of crime. The term is Norman in origin and is related to the French word arrêt, meaning "stop".

[A_Traveller]

I think it would be correct to describe this event as being detained during enquiries, arrest is, if memory serves, even in Thailand, a more specific set of actions requiring an entry into the charge register. For example, a driver may be detained, tested for alcohol, found clear and 'released'. In that circumstance the individual has not be 'arrested'.

Regards

[kat]

I have lived here for 19 years and have NEVER heard of a policeman randomly assaulting some tourist woman for absolutely no reason at all.

what about the double murder of tourists in kanchanaburi ??

Carly's story was that she and her friend had been walking down the street and the policeman just walked up to her out of nowhere and punched her in the face for absolutely no reason at all except her face was painted. Well, if that were really the case and it were a common attitude among police, then the Koh Phangan police would have been assaulting tourists left right and center every month.

Well, it was a DRUNK off-duty cop with a weapon. I am certain that this lethal combination does in fact produce unbelievable outcomes, and there are plenty of real-life situations in Thailand to back this up.

*Secondly, that small-town recognition that you described earlier is not really a given for newly-arrived tourists/residents (1 year is much less clued in than several years or decades), but even if it was, that recognition goes both ways, including the cop recognizing Carly for one reason or another. At any rate, none of us really know and that aspect may never be proven one way or another, but we do have certain irrefutable and irreversible facts in this case.

Edited January 28, 2008 by kat

[Khun ?]

Drunk policeman maybe, any toxicology reports yet.

What about drunk and drug crazed attackers with war paint!

All speculation at this time with opposite statements.

[kat]

Well, the "allegedly" drunk, off-duty cop *(who was seen drinking) and who definitely pulled and fired a gun on unarmed individuals THREE TIMES, FLED the scene that night until morning, so you can forget toxicology reports on him, not that they would've been done anyway.

*added

Edited January 28, 2008 by kat