Australian Aged Pension

[superglue]

I have had a retirement visa for many years - since age 55. I am now 69.

I just put the $$$ in the Thai bank and all is well.

[4MyEgo]

12 hours ago, tryasimight said:

i too have 4 years to go but I think super will stuff me for the pension, although I'm sure there will be ways of minimising the apparent super somehow.

The pension might not be a huge amount but it would be nice to know that there is something coming in and not having to watch the super slowly drain away - even if it is invested elsewhere. A little regular pocket money would be great.

The 2 year rule/35 year residency (and from what I understand you didn't have to work a day in those 35 years) sucks,  I can understand the spirit of the law to a certain extent but it's a catch all and hurts the fair dinkum Aussie as well as those who it was intended for.

Add the changes to capital gains tax if you sell your house and you are a non resident for tax purposes and the whole show is a shambles.

i can;t see it changing either with Shorten playing the politics of envy and Turnbull being a spineless tosser.

 

If you don;t have a house and are getting a super payout, you may qualify as long as your funds are under the threshold.

[tryasimight]

41 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

If you don;t have a house and are getting a super payout, you may qualify as long as your funds are under the threshold.

And there lies the problem

[superglue]

Previously I posted regarding my disability in the hope of accessing government benefits. The responses were encouraging particularly from David Waldren.

I contacted the Embassy who referred me to Family Services/Centrelink. A recorded message advised that they would telephone me.

I am still waiting!

Edited October 3, 2017 by superglue

[sceadugenga]

9 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

While your intentions are good, the information provided by the website is misleading to say the least as far as I have researched the upper house did not pass the changes, i.e. and as far as researching the net, its still 26 weeks, the 6 weeks they were hoping for didn't get the vote through, so its only the extras's that get reduced after 6 weeks, i.e. electricity etc etc, so the pension itself doesn't get reduced in fact..

 

I am open to any information advising otherwise, but this red flag is an absolute disgrace, and is probably there to discourage people going overseas with their pension, that would sound about right, I hope.

I was aware of that when I posted it but thought it irrelevant to the discussion and it would have only added an additional complication to already confused people.

The difference between the 26 weeks and a 6 week period was irrelevant to the more serious  2 year wait for portability issue and the DSS was at fault for continuing to supply faulty information in this regard.

[4MyEgo]

9 hours ago, tryasimight said:

And there lies the problem

 

Can I ask a couple of questions:

 

1) What state is the property in

 

2) When did you exit Oz

 

3) How long have you lived abroad as a non resident

 

3) What year did you acquire the property

 

4) Did you ever lease out the property before you moved overseas

 

The reasons I ask these questions is that I have a little knowledge in property and tax laws, although not qualified in the latter, but who knows, if you overlooked something you might be able to minimise your CGT obligations, worth a try, "up to you", some people on TVF have been in touch with me on other posts over times and have overlooked things, hopefully you have too.

 

If you want you PM me or reply back to this post

[tryasimight]

17 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Can I ask a couple of questions:

 

1) What state is the property in

 

2) When did you exit Oz

 

3) How long have you lived abroad as a non resident

 

3) What year did you acquire the property

 

4) Did you ever lease out the property before you moved overseas

 

The reasons I ask these questions is that I have a little knowledge in property and tax laws, although not qualified in the latter, but who knows, if you overlooked something you might be able to minimise your CGT obligations, worth a try, "up to you", some people on TVF have been in touch with me on other posts over times and have overlooked things, hopefully you have too.

 

If you want you PM me or reply back to this post

1 Queensland

2 Not permanently  yet

3 none ...still resident for taxation purposes

4 1995

5 no...its been sitting empty for the last 2 years while I have been overseas. If I knew then what I know now I would have rented it out

[4MyEgo]

1 minute ago, tryasimight said:

1 Queensland

2 Not permanently  yet

3 none ...still resident for taxation purposes

4 1995

5 no...its been sitting empty for the last 2 years while I have been overseas. If I knew then what I know now I would have rented it out

 

Are you able to apply for the 6 year rule, i.e. no capital gains tax for 6 years ?

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Capital-gains-tax/Your-home-and-other-real-estate/Your-main-residence/Treating-a-dwelling-as-your-main-residence-after-you-move-out/

 

They are looking at cancelling the 6 year rule, so keep an eye on that one.

 

http://www.expattaxes.com.au/the-6-year-rule-tax-advantages-for-expat-aussies-renting-out-their-principal-residence/

 

Does this assist ?

 

Another question, how long before you can apply for the OAP ?

[nev]

On 18/09/2017 at 5:44 PM, David Walden said:

https://www.citibank.com.au/aus/banking/everyday_banking/citibank_plus.htm   have a look at this.

 

 At the risk of repeating myself I use a Citibank every day account (debit Card).  Free ATM transactions anywhere in the world, any Thai bank charges shown on the ATM dockets are immediately credited back to  your online a/c, free money transfers to any bank anywhere in the world.  It cost nothing and is available to any Aussie who has a TFN.  it has not cost me a penny in 10 years.  Some other bank in the world have similar???

I have a Citibank debit card I opened last time I was back linked to a Citibank plus account, I have not used yet at a ATM here yet I have online though.

Just some questions what's the limit yo draw from a ATM overseas, what charges? None from Citibank and only charges in Thailand?.

If I was to use the yellow bank I can draw 30,000 at a time is that correct.

[moojar]

1 hour ago, nev said:

I have a Citibank debit card I opened last time I was back linked to a Citibank plus account, I have not used yet at a ATM here yet I have online though.

Just some questions what's the limit yo draw from a ATM overseas, what charges? None from Citibank and only charges in Thailand?.

If I was to use the yellow bank I can draw 30,000 at a time is that correct.

@David Walden says he is not charged any fees at any Thai ATM using his Citibank card.  That is not my understanding - from my reading there are no Citibank fees, so no fees at all at a Citibank ATM (there are a few in Bangkok).  But you will cop Thai bank fees if using a Thai bank's ATM.  I have only ever used the Citibank ATMs, so have no first hand knowledge other than getting a 'you will be charged B220 for this transaction, do you wish to proceed?' message using a non-Citibank ATM in Buriram.   (I didn't proceed with the txn.)     

 

David may have an older or different type of account with different T&Cs. 

 

Have a read of this whirlpool wiki - there's a section on Thailand, but as they say at the top,  conditions change, the wiki may be out of date.

https://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/citibank_plus_transaction_account

 

Quote

Thailand: Most ATMs charge substantial fees for foreign cards (eg. ~180-250 Baht or $6-10). Maybank appears not to. Aeon ATMs used to be free but are no longer. Bank of China ATMs may be fee free (only works with MasterCard).

Citibank ATMs are fee free, but are only available in 3 locations in Bangkok (see https://www.citibank.co.th/en/static/Location.htm), not elsewhere in the country. Note that the Interchange 21 branch (opposite Terminal 21 shopping mall) has two sets of ATMs, one set is inside the branch and is only accessible during banking hours, another set is near the entrance and can be accessed 24/7. This branch is easy to walk to from both the Asok BTS station and the Sukhumvit MRT station.

 

From memory I think I was allowed to withdraw B50k per day at the Bangkok Citibank ATMs.  Tried withdrawing more in the branch, but they had no access to my Australian account from there.

Edited October 4, 2017 by moojar

[nev]

36 minutes ago, moojar said:

@David Walden says he is not charged any fees at any Thai ATM using his Citibank card.  That is not my understanding - from my reading there are no Citibank fees, so no fees at all at a Citibank ATM (there are a few in Bangkok).  But you will cop Thai bank fees if using a Thai bank's ATM.  I have only ever used the Citibank ATMs, so have no first hand knowledge other than getting a 'you will be charged B220 for this transaction, do you wish to proceed?' message using a non-Citibank ATM in Buriram.   (I didn't proceed with the txn.)     

 

David may have an older or different type of account with different T&Cs. 

 

Have a read of this whirlpool wiki - there's a section on Thailand, but as they say at the top,  conditions change, the wiki may be out of date.

https://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/citibank_plus_transaction_account

 

 

From memory I think I was allowed to withdraw B50k per day at the Bangkok Citibank ATMs.  Tried withdrawing more in the branch, but they had no access to my Australian account from there.

Thanks mate, their is a Citibank branch in Khonkaen where I live but I have not seen a ATM outside, I might pay the place a visit and see if I can either open an account or they can do over the counter transaction.

[moojar]

I've been browsing around, and found another forum dedicated to pensions.  Seems to be originally for DSP recipients (Those bludgers!!   )

 

Here's the link if mods will allow: http://dspoverseas.proboards.com/  (It is not a competing forum)  Or google 'DSP age pension forum'.   They call themselves the 'Disability Support, Age Pension and Carers Alliance Forum (incl. DSPoverseas)'. 

 

So anyway, not a very active forum but a great source of information.  Thru it I found a link to an 'Administrative Appeals Tribunal' (AAT) decision document.  The decision won't please some - the guy lived in the Philippines for three years, went home for his pension and took off again a few months later.  Pension was stopped, and he lost the appeal.  Link here: http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/AATA/2014/378.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=portability

 

But more importantly is the decisions database itself - plenty there to keep anyone occupied, see who won their appeals and who lost, and why.  

 

Here's the main page you can run searches from:  http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/AATA/

 

Here's a search I ran for 'portability':   http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinosrch.cgi?method=boolean&query=portability&meta=%2Fau&mask_path=au%2Fcases%2Fcth%2FAATA

[David Walden]

On 10/3/2017 at 6:46 AM, David Walden said:

The bit about the 2 year bit to qualify, yes seems correct?...but if you go on holidays during this 2 year qualifying period  to Thailand or where ever  for extended holidays on a tourist visa or a retirement visa.  You most likely will qualify.  I have a friend who was absent overseas for 4 years OK he had a house in Perth he  rented out, lived off this rent,  paid some tax, arrived back recently at 65 years and 6 month. and was granted a Aus Aged Pension sold the house and is now living in South America permanently.   He is an account by profession he planned this move and it worked...all done.

Upon arriving back in Aus to presented his case, got the same answer as you suggest.  Maintained steadfastly that he was domicile in Australia paid tax during all that time.  Visited about 20 countries during the 4 years away.  Maintained he was only resident in Australia during this 4 years was not resident in any other country if he wasn't resident in Australia he would be stateless, he is very well read on Centrelink matters.  Told Centrelink that he will take them to the AAT to establish where he was resident in the last 4 years.  That is the point, if you are not resident in any other country then Australia, you pay tax here, and legally you are domicile in Australia. You are an Australian resident.  The matter was settled  and no application for a judgment from the AAT was made.  If a judgement by the AAT resulted in his favour and it looked good it would have set a precedent for thousands to follow and could still be so.  Centrelink seldom appeals AAT decisions, none to my knowledge. He got his pension for 12 months sold his house and was then well over the threshold, lost it anyway.  But If things go belly up in South America and should he need the pension it is established.

[David Walden]

On 10/4/2017 at 1:31 AM, superglue said:

Previously I posted regarding my disability in the hope of accessing government benefits. The responses were encouraging particularly from David Waldren.

I contacted the Embassy who referred me to Family Services/Centrelink. A recorded message advised that they would telephone me.

I am still waiting!

Don't give up Superglue Family Service/Centrelink that's a good start.  Just remember if you are dealing with Polly's and you get a positive outcome make sure they get the credit for it.  I can tell you if a polly rings Centrelink with a matter relating to matters like yours his call will immediately be put through to the State Manager of Centrelink, yes to the top man/woman, even a polly's secretary will be granted the state managers time with a constituent's matters .  That is standard procedure with Centrelink. Also this usually applies for the taxation dept and mostly for any govt departments.  It seem to me from what limited information you have presented that all is not lost.  Centrelink can make exception if it can save govt. money.  The alternative is that they may have to provide you with extensive care/assistance which may cost upwards of $1000's of dollars a week or more.  It is unlikely that you would need to return to Aus to have a hearing, telephone link ups can be arranged.  It is important that you actually apply, they have to reply to your application.  If they reject you, you need that rejection in writing so you can start to launch an appeal.  Don't let a Jr Clerk fob you off or try to encourage you not to apply and they may try.

[superglue]

I applied to the Ombudsman for guidance and assistance.

No response.

 

[David Walden]

7 hours ago, superglue said:

I applied to the Ombudsman for guidance and assistance.

No response.

 

Time usually heals all wounds...quote from my Dad who was ambulance officer in WW1 at Galippolli. in the 8 th Light Horse, 3 battles of Gaza and later to France.  

[sceadugenga]

10 hours ago, David Walden said:

Upon arriving back in Aus to presented his case, got the same answer as you suggest.  Maintained steadfastly that he was domicile in Australia paid tax during all that time.  Visited about 20 countries during the 4 years away.  Maintained he was only resident in Australia during this 4 years was not resident in any other country if he wasn't resident in Australia he would be stateless, he is very well read on Centrelink matters.  Told Centrelink that he will take them to the AAT to establish where he was resident in the last 4 years.  That is the point, if you are not resident in any other country then Australia, you pay tax here, and legally you are domicile in Australia. You are an Australian resident.  The matter was settled  and no application for a judgment from the AAT was made.  If a judgement by the AAT resulted in his favour and it looked good it would have set a precedent for thousands to follow and could still be so.  Centrelink seldom appeals AAT decisions, none to my knowledge. He got his pension for 12 months sold his house and was then well over the threshold, lost it anyway.  But If things go belly up in South America and should he need the pension it is established.

I know of at least one other Age Pension portability case where residency was originally disputed by Centrelink and they backed down before the case got to the AAT.

Personally, I'd advise anyone in that situation to appeal, it costs nothing and they have 2 years to kill anyway.

It's the only way that the legislation would get changed, losing in the AAT gets the government's attention.

 

[keithpa]

8 hours ago, superglue said:

I applied to the Ombudsman for guidance and assistance.

No response.

 

I had an appeal to the ombudsman, took abut 2 months for a reply.

[4MyEgo]

21 hours ago, moojar said:

I've been browsing around, and found another forum dedicated to pensions.  Seems to be originally for DSP recipients (Those bludgers!!   )

 

Here's the link if mods will allow: http://dspoverseas.proboards.com/  (It is not a competing forum)  Or google 'DSP age pension forum'.   They call themselves the 'Disability Support, Age Pension and Carers Alliance Forum (incl. DSPoverseas)'. 

 

So anyway, not a very active forum but a great source of information.  Thru it I found a link to an 'Administrative Appeals Tribunal' (AAT) decision document.  The decision won't please some - the guy lived in the Philippines for three years, went home for his pension and took off again a few months later.  Pension was stopped, and he lost the appeal.  Link here: http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/AATA/2014/378.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=portability

 

But more importantly is the decisions database itself - plenty there to keep anyone occupied, see who won their appeals and who lost, and why.  

 

Here's the main page you can run searches from:  http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/AATA/

 

Here's a search I ran for 'portability':   http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinosrch.cgi?method=boolean&query=portability&meta=%2Fau&mask_path=au%2Fcases%2Fcth%2FAATA

This is the mother load of cases, well done mate !

 

I just read a few cases on pension portability by putting in pension portability in the search engine, long reads, but well worth the knowledge, big pat on the back 555

[David Walden]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

This is the mother load of cases, well done mate !

 

I just read a few cases on pension portability by putting in pension portability in the search engine, long reads, but well worth the knowledge, big pat on the back 555

You realise that a big pat on the back happens when you cross breed a cow with a seagull. 5555

[David Walden]

On 10/3/2017 at 11:14 PM, tryasimight said:

And there lies the problem

It looks like you have to much money, you will just have to get on a line up at a travel agent and go on a couple of blow-it world trips to have fun before applying again or leave it to your kids,  SKI is better...good luck to you

[rhodie]

On 10/6/2017 at 10:19 AM, 4MyEgo said:

This is the mother load of cases, well done mate !

 

I just read a few cases on pension portability by putting in pension portability in the search engine, long reads, but well worth the knowledge, big pat on the back 555

Yes, interesting reading thanks @moojar.

The link to the lost case is of interest because there was no grey areas in the case of the defendant. He sold up and left Australia to reside in the Philippines. He came back after 3 years to visit his sick father and to claim the pension, but made it clear that his base was in the Philippines.

 

"confirmed the statement he made previously to a Centrelink officer that he ... intends returning to live in the Philippines 25/9/2013 and that will be his base. He will travel back to Australia from time to time to visit family. He also stated that he rented the house in Philippines to go back to and that he enjoys living in the Philippines."

 

So, hopefully where those of us who are on extended holidays returning to Australia 3 times a year and have a fixed address there, pay taxes and utilities and still "reside" there may have a chance. 

[Lizard2010]

On 10/3/2017 at 6:40 AM, moojar said:

Ha ha, I get your point.  She's also an Australian citizen though, and we're the same age - she will also get a pension.  The point the C/L officer was making was regarding 'ties to Australia' - she having Thai family counts against her, and against me by extension.  Apparently a bigger consideration than my family in Oz, and our own kids / grandkids in Oz. 

 

Or in other words, a single Australian living in Thailand might just be on an extended holiday.  An Australian citizen living in Thailand, who is also a Thai citizen, is a different story. 

 

SWMBO will have at least 25 of the 35 'AWLR' years when we apply - worked and paid her taxes for all of that.  They will no doubt screw us over on the AWLR - reduce our combined couples pension to 25/35 or something I expect. 

 

A single Australian living in Thailand

Is a Long Stay Tourist

We have No Residency Here

As per the Tourist Minister at a Long Stay Tourist Seminar In Chiang Mai

The Minister is in control of Xpats

So our country can not say we are a resident of Thailand

As we only have A Visa then a Visa Extension to live here

 

I believe Medicare is another thing

We also need clarification on

With the 5 year Rule

 

 

[rhodie]

4 minutes ago, Lizard2010 said:

A single Australian living in Thailand

Is a Long Stay Tourist

We have No Residency Here

As per the Tourist Minister at a Long Stay Tourist Seminar In Chiang Mai

The Minister is in control of Xpats

So our country can not say we are a resident of Thailand

As we only have A Visa then a Visa Extension to live here

 

I believe Medicare is another thing

We also need clarification on

With the 5 year Rule

 

 

Interesting angle, but.....

Hopefully there will be more cases in the next year or two that will start generating some media interest and some positive outcomes. We live in hope. 

[sceadugenga]

The media has little sympathy for people wanting to spend their pensions outside of Australia, they're happy to ignore the substantial taxpayer top up the private superannuation funds get though.

 

'''The age pension currently costs $39 billion and superannuation tax concessions will cost the budget around $35 billion in 2013-14,'' the study found".

 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/its-super-tax-concessions-not-pensions-that-are-killing-the-budget-20140421-zqx7p.html

 

 

[rhodie]

You are probably right.

 

I have searched through the link provided by @moojar for any cases of interest, but none so far. The ones I do see that have been lost seem pretty straightforward where defendants have moved overseas permanently. Will keep looking just in case, and hopefully find something more relevant. 

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, rhodie said:

Yes, interesting reading thanks @moojar.

The link to the lost case is of interest because there was no grey areas in the case of the defendant. He sold up and left Australia to reside in the Philippines. He came back after 3 years to visit his sick father and to claim the pension, but made it clear that his base was in the Philippines.

 

"confirmed the statement he made previously to a Centrelink officer that he ... intends returning to live in the Philippines 25/9/2013 and that will be his base. He will travel back to Australia from time to time to visit family. He also stated that he rented the house in Philippines to go back to and that he enjoys living in the Philippines."

 

So, hopefully where those of us who are on extended holidays returning to Australia 3 times a year and have a fixed address there, pay taxes and utilities and still "reside" there may have a chance. 

 

I would believe if you have not declared yourself as a non resident, return to Australia 3 times a year, pay taxes, and utilities, you would have a far better chance of retaining your residency, as we know its not cut and dry, but if you could also mix up a few trips to other neighbouring countries as well, it would hold more weight one would think.

[moojar]

4 hours ago, Lizard2010 said:

A single Australian living in Thailand

Is a Long Stay Tourist

We have No Residency Here

As per the Tourist Minister at a Long Stay Tourist Seminar In Chiang Mai

The Minister is in control of Xpats

So our country can not say we are a resident of Thailand

As we only have A Visa then a Visa Extension to live here

 

One of the cases I was reading addressed that.  Basically C/L are not saying you are a resident of Thailand, they are saying you are residing in Thailand.  Subtle difference.  You are not a resident of Australia because you are residing somewhere else.  You can be overseas for an extended period but still be resident of Australia - you have to keep moving, and have a set return plan. 

 

I'll see if I can dig out the case in the next day or so.  

 

This one is of some interest - not for you specifically @lizard2010, but generally: 

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/AATA/2017/1545.html

Quote

CATCHWORDS

SOCIAL SECURITY – suspension of payment – whether ceased to be an Australian resident – whether payment portable in circumstances of short residence – resuming residence in Australia – incorrect advice – Scheme for Compensation for Detriment caused by Defective Administration – decision under review affirmed

 

Again it's a cut and dried case - the guy was his own worst enemy.  But whomever wrote the report doesn't agree with C/L's (called 'the respondent') interpretations.  Too much to paste here, paragraphs 90-odd on are interesting.  These are paragraphs 103 & 104: 

Quote

• The representative for the Respondent [Centrelink] submitted that unfortunately a person effectively has to stay for a full two year period, unless the Department gives him or her permission to go overseas (and that could be for anything as simple as going to New Zealand, in Mr Armstrong’s case for a wedding), and there is provision for the Department to do that. Otherwise, the Respondent says, unfortunately a person has to be here in Australia for two years without interruption before he or she gets the unlimited portability.
• Now, that is not quite how I read it. It would seem that in a situation like that, that could certainly prevent someone from going overseas for two years, but would have the effect of preventing people from going for milestones in relatives’ lives, weddings, death of a loved one, like a father or a mother overseas, all those unintended consequences, where people would may well be prepared to go overseas for a few weeks, not receive the Age Pension whilst they are overseas, but pick it up again after they return and not have the two year period start all over again. I find it hard to think this would have been the intent of the legislature.

 

Dated '18 August 2017', so this is the current thinking. 

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by moojar
spelling

[sceadugenga]

He spoke to a person in that section and was told (on three occasions) that he would suffer perhaps a minor loss of some pension such as housing and electricity allowance but would be able to have portability of his pension. This was certainly not the correct advice.

 

He unfortunately did not get that in writing (although even if he did it is doubtful if that would have helped him, but it certainly may have been of help with any compensation claim he might make). Had he got it in writing, one would assume that the officer concerned would have had to have checked with a superior to authorise that assurance, and hopefully the correct situation would have been told to him.

 

Centrelink give out very little in writing, if you speak to them on the phone ask for a reciept number for the call, this allows you to trace the officer you spoke to if you need to.

[bazza73]

The basic proposition of dealing with Centrelink is to tell them only what you have to, and nothing else. For example, if you have a Thai GF in Thailand, it's none of their business because defacto relationships are not recognised in Thailand. They are never going to pay her any form of benefit anyway. It's just an attempt at stinginess by the bean counters.

I am supposed to update my income and assets whenever they change. Because I do a lot of share trading, my positions can change from week to week. However, I've noticed when I do an update with Centrelink, it takes their systems at least a month to register the update, and a couple of weeks after that to let me back into the online system. So I only update every 3 months or so. I do a face-to-face update every six months at a Centrelink office when I am back in Australia.

I don't use Centrelink's phone system. You'd have to go back to before jungle drums were invented, to find a less efficient means of communication.