Australian Aged Pension

[rhodie]

8 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Not really gobbledgook as you say, from my interpretation, i.e. if you return two years prior to reaching the OAP age, doing it this way, sorts number 6 on the list, i.e. yeh been living here for the past two years and intend on staying here for good, although as my wife has family back in Thailand, we will go back every now and again for a holiday, but that will depend if I can afford it, otherwise she will have to go alone 555

 

Determining whether a person is residing in Australia

SSAct section 7(3) lists the factors to be taken into account when deciding whether a person is residing in Australia. These are:

1. The frequency and duration of the person's travel outside Australia.
2. The nature of the accommodation used by the person in Australia.
3. The nature and extent of the family relationships the person has in Australia.
4. The nature and extent of the person's employment, business or financial ties in Australia.
5. The nature and extent of the person's assets located in Australia.
6. Any other matter relevant to determining whether the person intends to remain permanently in Australia.

When making a determination about whether a person is 'residing' - in other words 'living' - in Australia, the key point is to establish that Australia is the person's settled or usual place of abode - i.e. that the person makes Australia his or her home. In general, it is not possible for a person to be residing in more than one country at the same time. In most cases, the balance of a person's ties will weigh more heavily in favour of one country than another.

The decision as to whether a person is residing in Australia must be based on the balance of all the available evidence. No single factor should be taken to be conclusive on its own and some factors will usually provide a greater indication than others, however in the majority of cases the most weight should be given to the time spent in Australia. In general, it is also expected that a person who resides in Australia will be able to demonstrate strong ties to Australia under a number of different criteria listed in SSAct section 7(3).

 

You will see below Derek bombed out:

 

Example 1: Derek is single, aged 56, and has spent the last 2 years in Thailand as he prefers the climate and cost of living. He initially went for a short holiday and when he came back he rented out his furnished property in Australia on an indefinite basis and took on a long term lease of an apartment in Thailand. He is not employed. He keeps in contact with extended family by phone and has a return trip booked to Australia for medical treatment. He has to renew his Thai visa every year and does not consider himself to be a resident of Thailand because he is not eligible for a permanent visa there. He plans to return to Australia one day and for this reason has not sold his house.

Derek's argument that he does not have a permanent visa to stay in Thailand does not override the fact that he spends the majority of his time living in Thailand. Based on the duration of his absence and the fact that his plans to return to live in Australia are vague, at this point in time he is considered to be residing in Thailand.

 

You will see below that John and Belinda succeeded: 

 

Example 2: John and Belinda are both retired and have rented out their home in Australia for 2 years while they are in Europe. Their vehicle is on loan to John's brother in Australia who is looking after their furniture. They have purchased a townhouse in Perugia in Italy for their daughter who will be studying at a nearby university for 4 years and they see it as a good investment. They plan to have an extended holiday in Europe after their daughter has settled into her first year of study. They have a firm plan to return to Australia at the end of the 2 years as John expects to be doing contract work for his previous employer. Due to the fact that their plans in Europe are for a defined period and a short term purpose and there is other supporting evidence, they are considered to still be residing in Australia.

 

The way I see it, if you return two years prior and re-establish your residency and also pass the assets test, which will be a problem for me, one shouldn't really have a problem receiving the pension and also leaving as soon as one has received it, as you would have established your residency at the time your OAP was approved and wouldn't have to wait for the 2 year portability rule. Do it the other way around and you will still have to wait two years anyway, its just cleaner this way, and you might be able to save some coin in the 2 year period, or struggle on newstart allowance (the dole) 555

 

Sure, it is clear if you stay for 2 years prior to your pensionable age. What is not clear is if your are on an extended holiday. There is no clear definition. Why can't they give a clear definition for someone who has paid taxes all their life and takes a bit of an early retirement to travel?

 

Yes, it's clear, clear as mud! 

 

 

[4MyEgo]

11 hours ago, rhodie said:

Sure, it is clear if you stay for 2 years prior to your pensionable age. What is not clear is if your are on an extended holiday. There is no clear definition. Why can't they give a clear definition for someone who has paid taxes all their life and takes a bit of an early retirement to travel?

 

Yes, it's clear, clear as mud! 

 

 

Yep, clear as mud, they really don't give a rats about the tax payer, work all your life and if you want to leave, be it on "an extended holiday" we will screw you over if we feel its not "an extended holiday".

 

For others, it doesn't matter if you have come to Australia from another destination, never worked, but have lived in Australia for 10 years, you can qualify for a part pension, even better if you have lived there for 35 years and never worked, you get the full pension, but if you have worked 40 years, paid your taxes and decided to retire abroad earlier, don;t bother coming back for the OAP, if you do, you have to wait two years before you can exit "the country" again.

 

I was on a good wicket when I was working in Sydney, but when I did the maths, i.e. took out the 45-50k tax that I was paying, the hours, the stress, the cost of living, mortgage, food, insurances, etc etc, I said if I sold up at 55 and got the Farrrrk out of Australia, I could become a foreign resident, (retire) in Thailand and pay ZERO tax if I invested in the Australian stock market, which I did, and when I worked out what I would have left from working in living in Australia, I said, I could live comfortably on thrid of that in Thailand from the investment into the stock market Vs working like a C... for others to just sit on their assssses, Farrrrk that I said, and my new began 2 years ago, if I knew about it earlier, I would have done it earlier, but some of us stumble on things a little late, i.e. too busy to be able to raise ones head, just the way the want us to be back in the land of Oz.

[Peterw42]

12 hours ago, rhodie said:

Sure, it is clear if you stay for 2 years prior to your pensionable age. What is not clear is if your are on an extended holiday. There is no clear definition. Why can't they give a clear definition for someone who has paid taxes all their life and takes a bit of an early retirement to travel?

 

Yes, it's clear, clear as mud! 

 

 

Yes its not very clear but there are a couple of things you can do to help you stay a resident.

 

Number one is, if any government department asks where you live, the answer is Australia. (keep an Australian address, enrol to vote etc).

 

Number two is do not declare you are intending to live in another country, buying a house in another country etc, (dont write "moving to Thailand and never coming back" on your departure card.) No law against indefinite travel etc.

 

Number three is keep doing tax returns, tick the box that asks "are you a resident for taxation purposes", (its the first question).

 

It works to a certain extent, I have been out of Australia for four years now, I got called up for jury duty a couple of months ago and got fined for not voting in local council elections. Thats at least two Gov departments who still consider me as a resident. (got off both after informing them I am outside Australia)

Edited December 17, 2017 by Peterw42
uty

[Nemises]

Is it 100% certain that you will get the OAP if you do your 2 years prior home detention?

 

Let’s say a guy returns to Aus 2 years prior to live with a mate. He was living in Thailand for 10 years prior to returning to Aus. The guy has no Aus job, no Aus house, and nothing to convince Centrelink he’s going to hang around if they give him the OAP.

 

Is this guy any hope of getting a portable pension immediately upon serving his 2 years?

 

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, Gregster said:

Is it 100% certain that you will get the OAP if you do your 2 years prior home detention?

 

Let’s say a guy returns to Aus 2 years prior to live with a mate. He was living in Thailand for 10 years prior to returning to Aus. The guy has no Aus job, no Aus house, and nothing to convince Centrelink he’s going to hang around if they give him the OAP.

 

Is this guy any hope of getting a portable pension immediately upon serving his 2 years?

 

Once your pension is portable, its portable, you can leave the next day. Its 100% legal to have the pension paid outside Australia, after the 2 year wait (you can even get it paid into a foreign account).

Edited December 17, 2017 by Peterw42

[Nemises]

Once your pension is portable, its portable, you can leave the next day. Its 100% legal to have the pension paid outside Australia, after the 2 year wait (you can even get it paid into a foreign account).

 

Yes, agreed. But is the guy in the above example going to get the OAP?

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, Gregster said:

 

Yes, agreed. But is the guy in the above example going to get the OAP?

I cant see why not, maybe a reduced rate because not in Australia for all of working life. You dont have to convince centerlink you are going to "hang around", as after the pension is portable there is no requirement to stay in Australia.

[rhodie]

5 hours ago, Gregster said:

 

Yes, agreed. But is the guy in the above example going to get the OAP?

I think that if you return and spend 2 years in Australia before you reach qualifying age, you are safe to leave the next day after getting the pension. Where you return after you have reached qualifying age and leave again after 2 years I think is not so clear. 

Maybe someone can clarify.

[sceadugenga]

If you return and they put you straight on the OAP,  age and income tests allowing, sit out the 2 years then you would then be in the same position as someone who was granted portability immediately.

I know a couple of guys who did this.

[Nemises]

If you return and they put you straight on the OAP,  age and income tests allowing, sit out the 2 years then you would then be in the same position as someone who was granted portability immediately. I know a couple of guys who did this.   

 

 Thanks. I just don’t want to go back 2 years BEFORE retirement age only to be told, upon reaching retirement age, that rules have changed.... “you don’t qualify” for whatever reason. What a waste of 2 years! 

 

 

Maybe better to go back AFTER retirement age, get the pension IMMEDIATELY and then sit out my 2 years... like sceadugengas’ mates did. Doing it this way means I can immediately fly back to LoS (if unsuccessful in obtaining OAP) without having spent 1 day in Aus, let alone 2 bl**dy years!

 

 

 

 

[moojar]

10 hours ago, Gregster said:

 Thanks. I just don’t want to go back 2 years BEFORE retirement age only to be told, upon reaching retirement age, that rules have changed.... “you don’t qualify” for whatever reason. What a waste of 2 years! 

 

 

Maybe better to go back AFTER retirement age, get the pension IMMEDIATELY and then sit out my 2 years... like sceadugengas’ mates did. Doing it this way means I can immediately fly back to LoS (if unsuccessful in obtaining OAP) without having spent 1 day in Aus, let alone 2 bl**dy years!

 

 

 

 

I haven't reached pension age yet.  BUT as I understand it, if you go back after pension age to reestablish residency, you still need to convince Centrelink you intend to remain permanently in the country in order to be granted portability.  Once granted you can "change your mind" and go live overseas.  So a lot depends on your attitude and acting skills when applying / at some stage of the process.  As I understand it. 

 

You coming "home" and basically living boarding-house style with no real ties to the country - you will be scrutinised IMHO.  I'd be joining the Lions club and volunteering somewhere, that sort of shit.  Contributing to the community.  

 

Many (and I don't mean you personally) seem to have the attitude that the OAP is a "right" coz they paid taxes all their life or some BS.  It is not a right, it is welfare.  From Centrelink's perspective you've abandoned the country, haven't paid any tax in years, why should we give you a hand-out?  They are under pressure to reduce the welfare spend, and we are easy targets.  

 

Two people I have mentioned my plans to, which involve living overseas on a pension.  Both did a bit of a "Gollum" on me, turning nasty right off the bat.  They have the attitude that welfare should be spent in the country, contributing to the economy.  And I can see their point. 

 

It's a bitch though ain't it?  I'd like to enjoy my more active early-retirement years travelling and generally enjoying life - jump on a last-minute cruise when I spot a bargain, spend a couple of weeks in Japan or Taiwan in 4.5 star hotels on stop-overs on trips home, etc..  Spend a chunk of my super in other words, and then survive nicely on the pension when I'm a doddering old codger.  But no, I gotta be careful with spending just in case I don't get my government hand-out when the time comes.  C'est la vie. 

 

But I'm a bit of a Sgt Schultz with the whole process - I know nothing!  Stuff I have read on forums such as this count for nought.  Too many dickheads big noting themselves IMHO - and I may be one of them!   

 

[Nemises]

Fantastic advice moojar...Many thanks !

 

What about if you go back 2 years BEFORE retirement age...do you think all of the above would still apply? In particular convincing Centrelink you’re here to stay.

 

[sceadugenga]

I see we're getting the tired old "spending Australia's money overseas" argument again.

 

OK, so make it a level playing field, take away the taxbreaks the taxpayer hands out to "self funded" retirees in super schemes, which is as much if not more than goes into the OAP, and then that will make sure that ALL of Australia's money is kept onshore. 

 

 

 

 

[Mason45]

This is my take, I'm now 73 yo and I've lived in Thailand for the past 15 years with my Thai wife. When I was OAP age I had no idea of the rules as I was the first of my friends to go down the same path as myself. When I did apply I was told that I had broken my residential status. It would appear that if a person were to return to Australia for the 2 year period prior to their eligible retirement age then they would receive the OAP. The law is utter shit when retired politicians are on full pensions with entitlements and perks, some even have diplomatic posts overseas or are government advisors which doesn't affect their tax payer funded pensions.

[moojar]

3 hours ago, Gregster said:

Fantastic advice moojar...Many thanks !

 

What about if you go back 2 years BEFORE retirement age...do you think all of the above would still apply? In particular convincing Centrelink you’re here to stay.

 

Yes, my understanding is if you are resident when you reach OAP age then it's no questions asked - you have portability.  IF two years solid in the country will reestablish residency - you'd think it would have to eh?  But give Centrelink International a call to discuss, they seem to be pretty decent people.  Number is on the C/L website somewhere, and they have an international reverse-charges service from memory. 

 

'Maintaining residency' is a major focus of this thread, with more opinions than you can poke a stick at!  

[superglue]

4 minutes ago, moojar said:

Yes, my understanding is if you are resident when you reach OAP age then it's no questions asked - you have portability.  IF two years solid in the country will reestablish residency - you'd think it would have to eh?  But give Centrelink International a call to discuss, they seem to be pretty decent people.  Number is on the C/L website somewhere, and they have an international reverse-charges service from memory. 

 

'Maintaining residency' is a major focus of this thread, with more opinions than you can poke a stick at!  

And if you do not maintain residency according to their interpretation?

[moojar]

2 minutes ago, superglue said:

And if you do not maintain residency according to their interpretation?

Then it's time for Plan B or Plan C.  Two years onshore post-OAP, or no OAP.  

 

Talk to Centrelink International.  They know more than people like me on an Internet forum do. 

 

[superglue]

2 hours ago, moojar said:

Then it's time for Plan B or Plan C.  Two years onshore post-OAP, or no OAP.  

 

Talk to Centrelink International.  They know more than people like me on an Internet forum do. 

 

Contact details please.

[Will27]

1 hour ago, superglue said:

Contact details please.

You asked and were given the contact numbers by sceadugenga 2 weeks ago.

 

https://www.humanservices.gov.au/individuals/contact-us/international-phone-numbers

[halloween]

On 12/16/2017 at 9:11 PM, sceadugenga said:

Residency for tax purposes is not necessarily the same as residency for Centrelink purposes.

Different government departments do it differently.

 

https://www.elodge.com.au/etax-au/am-i-an-australian-resident-for-tax-purposes/#.WjTxEHkxX3g

Its about time somebody challenged this. How do different government depts get to decide, to their own benefit, who is a resident and who is not to the extent that we lose out under conflicting rulings.

AFAIK under common law you only get one bite of the cherry.

[4MyEgo]

On 18/12/2017 at 8:57 AM, moojar said:

I haven't reached pension age yet.  BUT as I understand it, if you go back after pension age to reestablish residency, you still need to convince Centrelink you intend to remain permanently in the country in order to be granted portability.  Once granted you can "change your mind" and go live overseas.  So a lot depends on your attitude and acting skills when applying / at some stage of the process.  As I understand it. 

 

You coming "home" and basically living boarding-house style with no real ties to the country - you will be scrutinised IMHO.  I'd be joining the Lions club and volunteering somewhere, that sort of shit.  Contributing to the community.  

 

Many (and I don't mean you personally) seem to have the attitude that the OAP is a "right" coz they paid taxes all their life or some BS.  It is not a right, it is welfare.  From Centrelink's perspective you've abandoned the country, haven't paid any tax in years, why should we give you a hand-out?  They are under pressure to reduce the welfare spend, and we are easy targets.  

 

Two people I have mentioned my plans to, which involve living overseas on a pension.  Both did a bit of a "Gollum" on me, turning nasty right off the bat.  They have the attitude that welfare should be spent in the country, contributing to the economy.  And I can see their point. 

 

It's a bitch though ain't it?  I'd like to enjoy my more active early-retirement years travelling and generally enjoying life - jump on a last-minute cruise when I spot a bargain, spend a couple of weeks in Japan or Taiwan in 4.5 star hotels on stop-overs on trips home, etc..  Spend a chunk of my super in other words, and then survive nicely on the pension when I'm a doddering old codger.  But no, I gotta be careful with spending just in case I don't get my government hand-out when the time comes.  C'est la vie. 

 

But I'm a bit of a Sgt Schultz with the whole process - I know nothing!  Stuff I have read on forums such as this count for nought.  Too many dickheads big noting themselves IMHO - and I may be one of them!   

 

Your 100% correct

 

From all of the research I have done and from what forums, legislation, regulations, acts, I have read, it is more clear that if you where in the country for 2 years prior to being granted the OAP, you should receive portability approval after those two years without too many questions asked, i.e. it might have to do with the application, i.e. have you in the last two years lived outside of Australia: Answer NO, go straight to the declaration page, no need to answer any further questions. whereas if you did return after the OAP age and applied then you would have to convince them that you are there to remain.

[4MyEgo]

On 20/12/2017 at 2:08 PM, halloween said:

Its about time somebody challenged this. How do different government depts get to decide, to their own benefit, who is a resident and who is not to the extent that we lose out under conflicting rulings.

AFAIK under common law you only get one bite of the cherry.

Its in the legislation, that's how

 

What everybody has to do is to keep calm and play them at their game, otherwise we lose, legislation is the law, there is no arguing over it, or challenging it, there is however ways to tackle the legislation through planning, each to their own, but best chance in getting the OAP portable without any major headaches is to do your 2 years prior to the OAP age, no other way around it unfortunately chaps

[Nemises]

Your 100% correct
 
From all of the research I have done and from what forums, legislation, regulations, acts, I have read, it is more clear that if you where in the country for 2 years prior to being granted the OAP, you should receive portability approval after those two years without too many questions asked, i.e. it might have to do with the application, i.e. have you in the last two years lived outside of Australia: Answer NO, go straight to the declaration page, no need to answer any further questions. whereas if you did return after the OAP age and applied then you would have to convince them that you are there to remain.

Well done. Great research and...fantastic news!

My plan to return to AU exactly 2yrs BEFORE retirement age, buying a Winnebago, doing laps of AU (fishing, surfing, drinking) before rocking up to CL on birthday for OAP and then immediately heading back overseas...has just been confirmed :)

Life just got better!

[sceadugenga]

I spent part of the last two years prior to applying for the OAP house sitting in places like Innisfail, NQ and the Barossa Valley, South Australia and indeed, it was an enjoyable life style until I got back to Thailand.

 

[4MyEgo]

5 hours ago, Gregster said:

 

Well done. Great research and...fantastic news!

My plan to return to AU exactly 2yrs BEFORE retirement age, buying a Winnebago, doing laps of AU (fishing, surfing, drinking) before rocking up to CL on birthday for OAP and then immediately heading back overseas...has just been confirmed :)

Life just got better!

 

Good luck to ya

 

Just make sure you have a whole list of things to prove to them that might include:

 

Medicare card, drivers licence, lease, electricity/gas bills, club membership, car registration, i.e. all the things you would normally need to show that Australia is your Abode (usual place of residency).

 

Having said all of that, when you do depart for overseas, make SURE you let them know you are going overseas for an extended holiday and that you would want your pension to be portable, because if you depart, without getting it portable, their system which is linked up to immigration, might just cut you off after you have been out of the country for 6 weeks.

 

Who knows, it might be that someone in CL has to type in the word "portable" into their system for your pension to keep being paid while you live abroad, as simple as that. 

Edited December 26, 2017 by 4MyEgo

[Nemises]

Today’s podcast of 2GB’s Alan Jones Breakfast Show features Ross Greenwood discussing the OAP with many callers. It may interest some of this thread’s followers.

 

It’s not about portability, more so about how those in AU are struggling with the OAP; working until they drop; unable to find work after reaching retirement age etc etc.

 

Below is a link to the podcast. The show lasts 1:53:00, however if you roll the tape forward to 0:50:00 (when OAP topic begins) you can save some time.

 

Hope it’s of some interest to you.

 

https://omny.fm/shows/the-alan-jones-breakfast-show/alan-jones-full-show-with-ross-greenwood-december

 

[sceadugenga]

Something that I'd like to see is the reaction if someone went back before eligibility for the OAP and applied for Unemployment/NewStart.

Jump thorough their hoops, there wont be many... you are in your mid 60s after all.

 

Then when you're old enough for the OAP make application and ask for portability, then when they say there's a two year wait reply........................

 

But I must be a resident, you have me on a residency based payment.

 

https://www.humanservices.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/newstart-allowance/residence-rules

How long you need to have been a resident

You must be an Australian resident and be in Australia for 104 weeks before you can get Newstart Allowance.

What may be different

You may be exempt from serving the 104 week period if you:

• are an Australian citizen

[Nemises]

Thinking of getting a job in Australia whilst waiting for the OAP?

If so, things MAY soon get a bit easier if this new campaign succeeds:

https://www.australianageingagenda.com.au/2017/09/29/new-campaign-combat-ageism-head/

[ELVIS123456]

6 hours ago, Gregster said:

Thinking of getting a job in Australia whilst waiting for the OAP?

If so, things MAY soon get a bit easier if this new campaign succeeds:

https://www.australianageingagenda.com.au/2017/09/29/new-campaign-combat-ageism-head/

 

  Ageism is being combated !!  That is a good one Gregster - I haven't laughed that much for a while.

 

But seriously - how can we afford to keep paying all these educated idiots who want to start a 'campaign' to change people's attitudes and behaviours - which means of course they get a lot of funding money (and maybe even a new Govt Organisation).  Save the taxpayer's money to give more to those getting the age pension I say .

 

[ELVIS123456]

20 hours ago, sceadugenga said:

Something that I'd like to see is the reaction if someone went back before eligibility for the OAP and applied for Unemployment/NewStart.

Jump thorough their hoops, there wont be many... you are in your mid 60s after all.

 

Then when you're old enough for the OAP make application and ask for portability, then when they say there's a two year wait reply........................

 

But I must be a resident, you have me on a residency based payment.

 

https://www.humanservices.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/newstart-allowance/residence-rules

How long you need to have been a resident

You must be an Australian resident and be in Australia for 104 weeks before you can get Newstart Allowance.

What may be different

You may be exempt from serving the 104 week period if you:

• are an Australian citizen

Currently in that exact situation myself - getting Newstart while I wait for the pension to be approved - which I top up with the occasional small withdrawal from Super - which is not classified as income by CLink (small amounts only).  Absolutely must be a Citizen or Permanent Resident AND resident in Australia to get Newstart, which means automatic qualification for OAP in a few years time.

 

Application for Newstart was all done online and very easy.  The only downside is having to 'apply' for a certain number of jobs every month - but these days they are all online and application is easy (Seek etc.).  Obviously being over 60 no one wants to employ me, but that suits me fine while I wait - and my 'resume' is bad and I want too much money and I have a few minor medical issues etc etc .  I am considering doing a few hours of approved 'charity work' each week, which would mean not having to apply for any jobs - but maybe that would interfere with the golf - so I am still thinking about it.