Australian Aged Pension

[fishhooks]

Gerald14:

Thanks for the info. and keeping the topic moving.

So, imagining that you are going to live in Thailand on a full time basis, does this calculation of 293/300 parts hold indefinitely after the initial 26 weeks, or is it re-calculated from time to time on an asset / income disclosure?

I imagine the Concession Card expires also at the 26 week point!

[CentrelinkInternational]

Hi to all posters on this topic

I am writing from Centrelink International Services in Hobart, Australia to supply some information that may help clear up some of the rules in place regarding claiming and receiving an Australian Age Pension in Thailand. There appears to be a lot of misinformation and misunderstandings in this forum, so hopefully this post will clear up some of those issues.

Please note that this information is NOT exhaustive and may change depending on your personal circumstances. If you want a precise answer to your specific question and your specific circumstances, please contact Centrelink International Services and one of our staff will assist you.

You can call Centrelink International Services on +61 3 6222 3455 (reverse charges if you wish) - we are planning to introduce a direct dial toll-free number from Thailand very shortly and I will post details here when that number has been set up. Alternatively email us ([email protected]) - but don't send us any attachments, or fax us (+61 3 6222 2799, or write to GPO Box 273, Hobart TAS 7001, Australia. There is a lot of useful information on our website - click on "International".

To CLAIM Australian Age Pension you must be residing permanently in Australia or in a country with which Australia has a Social Security Agreement (this does not include Thailand; the only Asian nation with which we currently have an Agreement is the Republic of Korea, and Japan from 1 January 2009). There are specific rules in Australian social security law that define the meaning of "residing permanently in Australia", and this takes into account such things as family ties, type of accommodation, duration and frequency of absences and intentions.

If you return to Australia temporarily in order to claim a pension, you will not be considered a permanent resident and your claim will not be accepted. If you return to Australia permanently and are granted an Australian Age Pension but then leave Australia again within 2 years, your Australian Age Pension may be stopped upon your departure from Australia.

If you are granted an Australian Age Pension and then decide at a later stage to leave Australia to live in Thailand, then your Age Pension can generally be paid to you in Thailand indefinitely, usually paid directly to your Thai bank account in Thai Baht. However if your total Australian residence in your working life (16th birthday to age pension qualification age) is less than 25 years (300 months), you will be paid a rate proportional to your working life residence once you have been outside Australia for more than 26 weeks. This means that if you were in Australia for 147 months in your working life, you will get 147/300 of the normal pension rate; if you were in Australia for 14 months in your working life, you will get 14/300 of the normal pension rate.

See the "Are You Leaving Australia?' factsheet under "Publications" on our website for more information on the rules that apply when you have an Australian pension and decide to leave Australia.

If you have an Australian pension (or any Centrelink payment) and you decide to leave Australia please contact Centrelink before you leave so that your payment situation outside Australia can be clarified. Centrelink does exchange information with the Australian Department of Immigration and Citizenship regarding movements in and out of Australia.

All Australian pensions are also subject to an income test and an assets test. The rates of allowable income and assets change regularly and are available on the Centrelink website. Your home is NOT generally considered as an asset under the asset test if you are living in it. If you own more than one home, one of them will be treated as an asset under the assets test. Please also note that if you are married or have a partner, even if that partner has never been to Australia and does not get an Australian pension, all of your partner's income and assets MUST be disclosed to Centrelink and are taken into account under the income test and the assets test.

Hope that information helps clear up some of the misunderstandings. Please don't hesitate to contact Centrelink International Services if you want a more specific answer to your questions. We're happy to help all Australians outside Australia with any matter relating to Centrelink or Australian social security rules.

Cheers!

Centrelink International

[Xangsamhua]

There are specific rules in Australian social security law that define the meaning of "residing permanently in Australia", and this takes into account such things as family ties, type of accommodation, duration and frequency of absences and intentions.

Many thanks for the very helpful clarifications. However, I'm not sure what the specific rules are regarding permanent residence in Australia. I have been able to establish these for tax puposes - there's a test on the ATO website - but I'm told that the same criteria may not apply for social security entitlements. Are there specific questions that we can see so that we can determine whether we are currently deemed to be Australian residents and therefore able to claim aged pension entitlements?

Regards

Xangsamhua

[roskruge]

Thank You CentrelinkIntern... (Centrelink International. Hobart) and welcome aboard.

[Artisi]

Great to see that Centrelink has taken the time to try and clear-up the matter of retirement /overseas Aussies.

The most important advise is the following _

"Please note that this information is NOT exhaustive and may change depending on your personal circumstances. If you want a precise answer to your specific question and your specific circumstances, please contact Centrelink International Services and one of our staff will assist you."

Personally I don't have any issues with info from Centrelink - but good to see it straight from the source for others to read.

[kimincm]

8.20am Bangkok time 27/10/2008 I have only just put the phone down after speaking with Centrelink Hobart. I posed the question to the adviser, do I qualify for the payment. He said 'We have only this morning received the news that overseas recipients will qualify", (for the singles $1,400.00 payment). "It has not been the case previously, on lump sum payouts, but in this case overseas recipients do qualify". Whooooooo Weeeeee

p.s. just sad the Auss dollar at the moment is very low against the Thai Baht, at time of writing Aus$1.00 = 21.584107 Thai Baht.

But anyway "Thank You" Kevin R and your team.

Has there been any indication just how this Chrissie bonus will be paid out?

[ignoramus]

A big vote of thanks to Centrelink International for contributing.

I'm ex-Centrelink, and am most impressed that CLI would take the time and trouble to be helpful.

I seems that those Tasmanians are really nice people.

I am acquainted with several CL people in Oz, but am reasonably certain that they would not bother to assist here (even those who themselves may be contemplating a long stay in the LOS.)

Nice to see that Patong Bob contributes, he being ex as well.

I think it was fishhooks who was concerned about the A pension qualifying age being raised to 70. Worry not mate, if it happens it'll take ages to take effect, and even then won't happen overnight. The qual. age for females began rising about a decade ago (from 60), and is still not up to the male age (65)! It's quite close though.

CL never bites people on the b*m for laughs, and as someone mentioned there are 'savings provisions', meaning that if you qualified at point A and a rule change occurs at point B for others like you, you don't get bitten but your pal might.

Unclear 'regulations' -- There's the Act and there's the 'procedures book' that your average CL person uses (until there's an 'appeal against a decision' that is). The Appeals bodies use the Act, which they know like the back of their hands, so to speak. The PB is used as a general guide by the 'lower ranks' (no offence).

I was no Pensions (or otherwise) expert, and others have contributed greatly here anyway. I have nobody I can refer to either, so can't be of any great help.

roskruge asked me a question, but what? I forget, though seem to recall that I knew the answer. Anyway this topic was started in Jan so I don't imagine too many are interested, or will even read this...

[panork]

CentrelinkInternational

"To CLAIM Australian Age Pension you must be residing permanently in Australia or in a country with which Australia has a Social Security Agreement (this does not include Thailand; the only Asian nation with which we currently have an Agreement is the Republic of Korea, and Japan from 1 January 2009)."

Hi CentrelinkInternational

Reading what you have written, it would appear that one can reside permanently in "a country with which Australia has a Social Security Agreement". Many European countries fall into this category.

Does this mean that one does not have to return to Australia to CLAIM, and keep on receiving, the pension during that ominous 2 year period? If so, what evidence would be required to substantiate permanent residency in that particular country?

Does anybody have the answer?

Thanks, Panork

[CentrelinkInternational]

However, I'm not sure what the specific rules are regarding permanent residence in Australia. I have been able to establish these for tax puposes - there's a test on the ATO website - but I'm told that the same criteria may not apply for social security entitlements. Are there specific questions that we can see so that we can determine whether we are currently deemed to be Australian residents and therefore able to claim aged pension entitlements?

Hi Xangsamhua

Sorry for the delay in responding - life has been hectic in Centrelink! The rules are really too complex to state fully here. The basic rule is that your intention has to be that you are remaining in Australia permanently, and your actions and decisions must support that. So if you say you are back permanently but have a return ticket, or have left your wife in Thailand, or if there are actions/decisions made by you that make it doubtful that you really are in Australia permanently, your claim is likely to be refused. So it's really very simple - return to Australia permanently and be sincere in your stated aim to remain there permanently, and you should be OK to claim Australian age pension. If you are insincere, you are likely to be found out and your claim denied. Hope that helps.

Centrelink International Services

PS We have just set up a new direct phone service so that any Australian in Thailand can call Centrelink International Services directly and free of charge. Just dial 001 800 611 4136 - no other prefixes or codes required. Note: this free call may not be available from every location within Thailand, and may not be free from mobile phones or public phones. Customers may need to insert coins/card in pay phones as for a local call and this may not be refunded at end of call.

[CentrelinkInternational]

Reading what you have written, it would appear that one can reside permanently in "a country with which Australia has a Social Security Agreement". Many European countries fall into this category.

Does this mean that one does not have to return to Australia to CLAIM, and keep on receiving, the pension during that ominous 2 year period? If so, what evidence would be required to substantiate permanent residency in that particular country?

Does anybody have the answer?

Thanks, Panork

Hi Panork

Again, apologies for the delay in responding.

Australia currently has social security agreements with Austria, Belgium, Canada, Chile, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Greece, Ireland, Italy, the Republic of Korea, Malta, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland and the USA. From 1 Jan we add Japan to this list, and it is expected that an agreement with Finland will commence on 1 July 2009.

If you residing permanently in any of those countries you can claim Austrralian age pension under the terms of the relevant agreement. Please see my response to Xangsamhua above about what is meant by permanent residence. The same rules and procedures apply for verifying permanent residence in an agreement country as for Australia.

Cheers - and Merry christmas to all on this forum!

David @ Centrelink International Services

[GungaDin]

"Cheers - and Merry christmas to all on this forum!

David @ Centrelink International Services"

and thanks for taking the time to respond to us old buggers.

[Xangsamhua]

However, I'm not sure what the specific rules are regarding permanent residence in Australia. I have been able to establish these for tax puposes - there's a test on the ATO website - but I'm told that the same criteria may not apply for social security entitlements. Are there specific questions that we can see so that we can determine whether we are currently deemed to be Australian residents and therefore able to claim aged pension entitlements?

Hi Xangsamhua

Sorry for the delay in responding - life has been hectic in Centrelink! The rules are really too complex to state fully here. The basic rule is that your intention has to be that you are remaining in Australia permanently, and your actions and decisions must support that. So if you say you are back permanently but have a return ticket, or have left your wife in Thailand, or if there are actions/decisions made by you that make it doubtful that you really are in Australia permanently, your claim is likely to be refused. So it's really very simple - return to Australia permanently and be sincere in your stated aim to remain there permanently, and you should be OK to claim Australian age pension. If you are insincere, you are likely to be found out and your claim denied. Hope that helps.

Centrelink International Services

PS We have just set up a new direct phone service so that any Australian in Thailand can call Centrelink International Services directly and free of charge. Just dial 001 800 611 4136 - no other prefixes or codes required. Note: this free call may not be available from every location within Thailand, and may not be free from mobile phones or public phones. Customers may need to insert coins/card in pay phones as for a local call and this may not be refunded at end of call.

Thank you and best wishes for the Season.

[fishhooks]

David at Centrelink:

Many thanks for you're contribution to this Forum, much appreciated and the best for the season and New Year to you all down there.

Just one thing I'm having a little difficulty in understanding re qualification for the OAP.

Am I right in thinking that to qualify, if one has satisfied the requirement for being classed as a Permanent Resident and mainly been in Australia and living as a citizen for two years prior, such applicant must never show an inclination or desire to reside overseas.

Then, suddenly, 'after' being approved and you make the decision to move off-shore, all will be okay and you will maintain you're pension.

Just seems a bit of a confliction "and even unfair" that you're actions must be hidden for a couple of years prior to 65, then you suddenly come out of the cupboard and state you're intentions.

Perhaps, put another way; Surely qualification is the main yardstick here. You've done the time and by way of all else you are an Australian Citizen. Whether you live off-shore or on-shore I don't see 'should' come into the equation at all.

Particularly seeing that it is 'okay' to live in 'some' countries!

[Artisi]

David at Centrelink:

Many thanks for you're contribution to this Forum, much appreciated and the best for the season and New Year to you all down there.

Just one thing I'm having a little difficulty in understanding re qualification for the OAP.

Am I right in thinking that to qualify, if one has satisfied the requirement for being classed as a Permanent Resident and mainly been in Australia and living as a citizen for two years prior, such applicant must never show an inclination or desire to reside overseas.

Then, suddenly, 'after' being approved and you make the decision to move off-shore, all will be okay and you will maintain you're pension.

Just seems a bit of a confliction "and even unfair" that you're actions must be hidden for a couple of years prior to 65, then you suddenly come out of the cupboard and state you're intentions.

Perhaps, put another way; Surely qualification is the main yardstick here. You've done the time and by way of all else you are an Australian Citizen. Whether you live off-shore or on-shore I don't see 'should' come into the equation at all.

Particularly seeing that it is 'okay' to live in 'some' countries!

Once you have done your time (2years) and no longer considered a former resident, you are free to leave the country for any period you wish- BUT you must notify Centrelink prior to departure.

In the lastest "News for Senior" - Aust. Government /Centrelink publication - The Dept. of Immigration will from 6th December advise Centrelink with information about departures and arrivals from / into Australia since 1994. Centrelink is now informed of your movements out/into Australia.

(Quote) Most Centrelink age-related payments can be paid during an absence outside Australia. However the rate may vary. ...........(Quote)

You can check at wwww.centrelink.gov.au or 132300 to see how your payment will be affected.

[fishhooks]

Yep, fine on most of that Artisi, have been aware for very long time that movements in and out can be monitored, even if now moreso.

That's not a concern, I always play by the book.

I know you had this situation some time back about being classed as a former resident, but I still see no clear guidline on the frequency of movements in and out.

Many of us, because of our partners, see the need for them to visit family here (LOS) and of course we depending on our circumstances, like to travel with them.

Thus what might be a normal family holiday, could, without some form of rule or guidline might just tip over the edge and be classed as "former"

Not at all true, but a concern for many of us now and in the future.

I'm now here for a couple, if not a few months, no intention of living here yet, so a true blue Aussie and not wanting to be tagged as a former resident!

[Artisi]

fishhooks- I agree, there is nothing defined as to what is or isn't acceptable re frequency of movements. However, I would think that a fair and reasonable assessment would be given to anyone who spends time in Australia, leaves with his wife / girlfriend or visits same o/seas or leaves to travel o/s for a few months a year or even longer periods so long as you satisfy the authorities that in fact you are still a true blue , ie have bank acounts, own a vehicle, pay medical insurance and possibly tax, own some real estate or hold a lease on a flat etc, etc. I don't really think that Centrelink are out to get anyone who is a legitimate resident coming and going - what they are looking for is those who leave permanently for a number of years virtually cutting all ties with Aust. to return at 65 years old and expect to be handed a pension.

[fishhooks]

Yes Artisi, quite a good assessment of what perhaps should be, but given that C/L Hobart have kindly come on to the Forum, I was hoping they could give an idea of just what is acceptable travel.

Of course, given the time of the year it is reasonable that they are busy'

Around what you say, it should be possible to prove that your trips particularly to Thailand with Spouse are for family visits.

Also it would be possible, hopefully not, that an officer may say "Ah, you are spending so much time in Thailand, you are not really a Resident"

I think this is similar to what happened to you initially?

Again for memory, one should not have to go to the trouble you had to go to!

House, Car, Bank, Medicare, Medibank, Insurances etc etc should be enough.

It's now Christmas Day in Australia.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all here and there.

[Nignoy]

Just a footnote ,I think the Centrelink rules and regulations for recieving an age pension whilst travelling overseas, are down to the interpretation of centrelink individual who you are dealing with, we have just got back from a short break in Singapore we tried to inform centrelink by snailmail ,we were to told to come in for a chat , so we went to CL Caboolture spent half an hour explaining to some chinless wonder that we would like to leave australia for 14 days, we were informed in no uncertain terms to make sure we both reported back in person when we came home, so the day after arriving back we fronted up in caboolture, only to be told it was not neccesary to report in in person a simple email or phonecall will suffice, Merry Christmas Everyone!!

[Artisi]

Just a footnote ,I think the Centrelink rules and regulations for recieving an age pension whilst travelling overseas, are down to the interpretation of centrelink individual who you are dealing with, we have just got back from a short break in Singapore we tried to inform centrelink by snailmail ,we were to told to come in for a chat , so we went to CL Caboolture spent half an hour explaining to some chinless wonder that we would like to leave australia for 14 days, we were informed in no uncertain terms to make sure we both reported back in person when we came home, so the day after arriving back we fronted up in caboolture, only to be told it was not neccesary to report in in person a simple email or phonecall will suffice, Merry Christmas Everyone!!

There is need to explain anything other than to advise that you are leaving the country for X number of days and as for being rude or otherwise difficult I wouldn't put up with that attitude - if this was way you were treated I would immediately ask to see their boss.

[GungaDin]

Merry Xmas, Ozmates.

May all your chooks turn into Emus.

[Artisi]

Merry Xmas, Ozmates.

May all your chooks turn into Emus.

and hope they don't kick the dunny down

[GungaDin]

True! Happy New Year.

[yeah111]

First of all happy new year to everyone.

What I have to say here might be relevant to problems Aussies and their spouses are having. I actually live in the Philippines but both countries face similar (if not the same) obstacles with regard to Australian pension.

My father was a German citizen and became an Australian after working there for more than 20 years. He met my Filipino mother in the Philippines and after I was born he decided to go back to Germany to work for awhile. He retired after some years and we settled in the Philippines. He passed away almost 15 years ago still maintaining his Australian citizenship. Soon after my mother received a widowers pension from the German government for his work in Germany. Amazingly...none from Australia.

Its unbelievable how perverted the Australian pension system is. All the hard work and the taxes my father paid to the Australian government and our family gets absolutley nothing after his death. We had to endure a lot of hardships for he was the breadwinner of the family but luckily the German pension laws were more lenient and we had some form of relief.

If you look it up Pension in the dictionary means a sum paid to a person following his retirement from service or to the surviving dependents. We still have not received any of this pension for which my father spent more than half his life working and saving up for our family from the Australian government. I like to help my mother obtain a widowers pension from Australia and Ive tried contacting Centrelink but they refuse to help us.

Would there be any legal remedies available to address our situation?

[Artisi]

Would there be any legal remedies available to address our situation?

No.

[Theo007]

I suggest that you call Centrelink International Service on 61 362223455. You can call reverse charges.

[ThaiItAgain]

"Cheers - and Merry Christmas to all on this forum!

David @ Centrelink International Services"

and thanks for taking the time to respond to us old buggers.

Read David of Centerlinks comments with interest most of which can be found on the www.Centrelink.gov.au web site.

Is there any Australians living in Thailand that are retired and receiving the retired age pension from Centrelink that can share their experiences in regards to:

how they keep receiving the Australian pension from centerlink whilst they live in Thailand on a full time basis

ThaiItAgain

[yeah111]

ThailtAgain,

Thats the whole point, I don't think its possible to receive Aus pension if you are permanently residing in another country unless they have a Social Security Agreement with Aus.

[samuibeachcomber]

as i understand it from this thread,if you left australia prior to being at the pensionable age of 65 to live in thailand you do not automatically become elligible for the state pension.To receive or qualify for the pension you would be required to return to australia 2 years before age 65 and take up permanent residence again.then at age 65 apply at local centre link office.

After that i think you just let centrelink know you will be going overseas to live in thailand and they will continue to pay into your aussie account.there will be strings attached to you still receiving the pension but i think it can be done.if you look back to the early postings in this thread,an aussie guy posted that he was receving his pension while living in thailand and on eof the criteria was that he keep in touch with centrelink as to his whereabouts.

[ThaiItAgain]

as i understand it from this thread,if you left australia prior to being at the pensionable age of 65 to live in thailand you do not automatically become elligible for the state pension.To receive or qualify for the pension you would be required to return to australia 2 years before age 65 and take up permanent residence again.then at age 65 apply at local centre link office.

After that i think you just let centrelink know you will be going overseas to live in thailand and they will continue to pay into your aussie account.there will be strings attached to you still receiving the pension but i think it can be done.if you look back to the early postings in this thread,an aussie guy posted that he was receving his pension while living in thailand and on eof the criteria was that he keep in touch with centrelink as to his whereabouts.

From what I am reading, majority of the farangs from Australia that move to Thailand are in the main below the retirement age and I guess that is why there appears to be no first hand info from anyone of retired age in Thailand. Failing that, those that may be in Thailand who are retired and perhaps receiving a pension don't subscribe to Thai Visa. I will be travelling to Chiang Mai in March this year and meeting up with an Australian (Michael) as yet I have not met. He has lived in Thailand for 8 years and who is married to a Thai. He was on the pension prior to deciding to live in Thailand and has mentioned that it was difficult communicating with Centerlink even whiles in Australia and it became more so when he moved to Thailand. Much of what has already been spoken about he experienced and he cleared the ways through communicating with Centerlink International in Tasmania. I am retired and I already receive a pension from Centerlink; but I am waiting until my wife who is Thai and living with me in Australia Brisbane is able to get her PR visa which will be in Feb 2010. Then WE will be off back to Thailand Australia for pensioners has become to F****ing expensive. I will be getting the full and correct info on what I will need to do to secure the continuity of the pension I receive already. I have spoken to the local Centerlink branch but they don't know anything about what has to happen when moving overseas; they refer me to Hobart. I am reticent to talk with them and make them aware of my intentions until I have spoken with Michael and learn from him first hand on how he overcame problems and of coures how I should prepare myself before I talk with them.

I will give you one first hand example of what communicating truthfully with Centerlink can be like. I married my Thai wife in Australia; I was on a pension of $530 per fortnight. I was told to inform Centerlink of the marriage to which I did. Once they knew that I was married, they dropped it back to $450 per fortnight saying that she was now able to work . I was asked by Centerlink if she was working of which I informed that she wasn't and that

Was true at that time. That information however didn't change the fact that they still dropped the pension just because she is able to work. In July 2008 she managed to get a part time job because she doesn't speak English well enough for a better job; but I failed to tell them until October 2008 that she had secured a job. She earns $800 gross per fortnight. Once Centerlink learned that she was now working they readjusted my pension by 20% of every $$$ gross that she earns. YES! My pension has been reduced by $160 per fortnight and they also ordered me to refund them $1500 that had been overpaid since July 2008. So Centerlink in my opinion is really the Gestapo department of the Australian government division responsible for looking after welfare and old age pensions. Theyare not about being fair by paying you a pension because you are owed because you have been working, paid taxes and towed the line for more than 25+ years; but how they can constantly looking at ways as to how they can NOT pay you one. I started working in Australia in 1966 and had worked full time until I retired in 2003. Since that time I have been payed a pension that has been constantly measured against information that I was made to supply and constantly adjusted downwards I might add with the exception of indexing

So you can get the idea that I am not fond of Centerlink and don't want to talk to Hobart until I know how to prepare for that time. Michael I believe is proof and can help me with that.

ThaiItAgain

[samuibeachcomber]

I'm with you 100%.but i do believe from what other posters have said centrelink at hobart are very helpful.please keep us updated when you have spoken to your friend.Its always the best way to find out how to go about things from others successful experiences.

I too think its very unfair that its so difficult to get any OAP outside of australia.sounds like it pays to stay single.the australian govts.now and in the past have always appeared to me to be mean spirited,same goes with their immigration laws................a very selfish country in my opinion.