"married Visa" With Work Permit

[paulklee]

Maybe someone knows about this situation, it doesnt seem to come up on any other Boards?

I have been here over ten years and have had no trouble, especially for the past three years, extending my Non-Imm O Visa on the basis of having a Thai Family. The visa was based on having the required funds on bank deposit. As I also have a work permit, the appropriate tax forms were submitted too. But to my understanding, it was the bank account that was the main issue for the authorities.

This year I had planned only to use the bank deposit, because the my company has been "put on ice" and I have not been earning for over six months.

Immigration sources advise that as I still have a WP, I am not able to get the visa extension on the basis of the funds in the bank. Also, that the B40K income required for the Visa has to come from me, not from the 'family' as seems to be the situation in other cases.

OK, if anyone has experience of this I would be very grateful indeed if you could tell me if what the immigration sources above say is correct. Also, does this mean for the purposes of visa extension, I cannot be considered as 'grandfathered' with respect to using the bank depsoit funds?

Edited January 21, 2008 by paulklee

[Lite Beer]

Maybe someone knows about this situation, it doesnt seem to come up on any other Boards?

I have been here over ten years and have had no trouble, especially for the past three years, extending my Non-Imm O Visa on the basis of having a Thai Family. The visa was based on having the required funds on bank deposit. As I also have a work permit, the appropriate tax forms were submitted too. But to my understanding, it was the bank account that was the main issue for the authorities.

This year I had planned only to use the bank deposit, because the my company has been "put on ice" and I have not been earning for over six months.

Immigration sources advise that as I still have a WP, I am not able to get the visa extension on the basis of the funds in the bank. Also, that the B40K income required for the Visa has to come from me, not from the 'family' as seems to be the situation in other cases.

OK, if anyone has experience of this I would be very grateful indeed if you could tell me if what the immigration sources above say is correct. Also, does this mean for the purposes of visa extension, I cannot be considered as 'grandfathered' with respect to using the bank depsoit funds?

The law actually states that the requirement is 40,000 Baht a month income. If the applicant does not have this then he must have 400,000 Baht in the bank. (For those that are grandfathered as you are)

So it seems that the 40,000 Income takes priority over bank deposit.

As you do not have the income this time then you would think that the bank deposit would come into play.

Sorry not much help.

[Lite Beer]

Just to add that the law does say that the income or money in the bank can be yours , your wifes or a combination of both.

[sweetchariot]

It depends on which Word you have a permit for

[Lite Beer]

(6) In case of the applicant who is

married to a Thai wife, one of them

or both of them need to have the

total annual income that is

averaged out not less than 40,000

Baht per month. Except for the case

that the said foreign national has

entered Thailand before this Order

is enforced and the foreign national

has been permitted to stay in the

Kingdom by the result of having

married to a Thai wife, then if the

applicant does not have the said

income, then, the latest 3 months

records of the account book of any

Bank in Thailand with the account

name of either or both parties need

to have the amount of money not

less than 400,000 Baht.

The relevant section of the police order date October 2006

[paulklee]

Lite Beer, many thanks for your comments and info.

My understanding of the general situation corresponds exactly to your input and indeed to the translation of the police order.

BUT, there seems to be a complication if you possess a work permit. I cant find any rule about this but I have been told that, strictly speaking, if you have a work permit then

a) the bank account balance criterion cannot/will not be used

the B40K average monthly income can only come from you (the possessor of the WP)

Although most people who have WPs will go for a business related visa, I would have thought that somebody before has had a WP but uses the "Thai Wife" related visa?

[Lite Beer]

Lite Beer, many thanks for your comments and info.

My understanding of the general situation corresponds exactly to your input and indeed to the translation of the police order.

BUT, there seems to be a complication if you possess a work permit. I cant find any rule about this but I have been told that, strictly speaking, if you have a work permit then

a) the bank account balance criterion cannot/will not be used

the B40K average monthly income can only come from you (the possessor of the WP)

Although most people who have WPs will go for a business related visa, I would have thought that somebody before has had a WP but uses the "Thai Wife" related visa?

Sorry cant help any more. There must be some one else in your situation who will come along with some input.

I know nothing about work permits.

[lopburi3]

Could you please let us know which office is saying this? Is it Suan Phlu in Bangkok or another office?

[Artisi]

You say the company has been "put-on-ice", does this mean it is not operational and that in effect you aren't employed any more - if this is the case you probably need to hand in your work permit (as you aren't employed) and then apply for a marriage visa based on money in the bank.

Just a thought

[Maestro]

...I have been here over ten years and have had no trouble, especially for the past three years, extending my Non-Imm O Visa on the basis of having a Thai Family. The visa was based on having the required funds on bank deposit. As I also have a work permit, the appropriate tax forms were submitted too. But to my understanding, it was the bank account that was the main issue for the authorities...

I think you should look at your last extension stamp in your passport to find out for what reason the extension was given, whether for marriage to a Thai or for employment. That piece of information may be in Thai, so you should ask your wife to translate it for you.

--

Maestro

[paulklee]

Thanks everyone for the helpful comments.

Maestro - the passport visa stamp is "THAI WIFE" on several occasions, so no ambiguity there. But that probably doesnt help as what I am being told is that even within the THAI WIFE category there is more than one interpretation of the visa requirements.

Lopburi3 - this is definitely the Suan Plu office, which is being asked via an ex-Immigration official as a favour. As you know, Immigration never answer the phone to respond to a direct question.

Lite Beer - thanks for trying to help.

Artisi - You say the company has been "put-on-ice", does this mean it is not operational and that in effect you aren't employed any more - if this is the case you probably need to hand in your work permit (as you aren't employed) and then apply for a marriage visa based on money in the bank.

Yes, that might (see additional info below) have been an option had we known earlier about this "regulation" that is causing the problem (although there seemed to be no reason known to me or anyone I have spoken to, to have to give up the WP). But it's a moot point: if I now go for a Thai Wife visa based on no work, then I'll have to start under the new rules, which require income!!

Suffice to say that at this stage, a couple of weeks before the due date of visa extension, we have little room for manouevre. Also, this may be a rare set of circumstances but it would be nice to know for myself and others if this restriction is "real" and what the "rule book" says?

Additional information: we have been told that it all might depend on how the Thai Wife visa was set up right at the beginning. At that time, did we supply photos of us and the house; or did we just supply income details?! Well, we arent sure although we know we did supply a letter from my employer. OK, so therefore maybe game, set and match for the Immigration Department.

But the question remains, has anyone ever heard of this nuance within the Thai Wife based visa extension?

[lopburi3]

Lopburi3 - this is definitely the Suan Plu office, which is being asked via an ex-Immigration official as a favour. As you know, Immigration never answer the phone to respond to a direct question.

Actually people have received answers using the 1111 hotline in the past. But your above answer seems to indicate you are getting this information from a third party and not directly from Suan Phlu? Have you applied for the extension and been told this or is it just the word you have received indirectly?

[paulklee]

Lopburi3, sorry my last post is long and easy to miss bits. I said:

"Suffice to say that at this stage, a couple of weeks before the due date of visa extension...."

We are still trying to connect via 1111. I dont think this is a "shoot the messenger" siutaion - our contact merely gets through to Imm and asks the same questions we would. Of course, it might still be lost in the non-translation!

I know you are pretty much the expert around these Boards and give great advice - I've read it often. But can I assume in this case that you have not heard of this "interpretation" or "nuance" of the Thai Wife based visa requirement if a WP is involved? I know, I know - maybe if nobody has heard of it then maybe it doesnt exist!!!

[Lite Beer]

I dont know if this thread has any relevance.

Its all beyond me.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=165273

[Cyberstar]

BUT, there seems to be a complication if you possess a work permit. I cant find any rule about this but I have been told that, strictly speaking, if you have a work permit then

a. the bank account balance criterion cannot/will not be used

b. the B40K average monthly income can only come from you (the possessor of the WP)

... this may be a rare set of circumstances but it would be nice to know for myself and others if this restriction is "real" and what the "rule book" says?

The problem we all are facing, when extending our permits, is that what the rule book says may not have anything at all to do with our individual "realities" - i.e. those more or less obscure "interpretations" that will be applied in one's individual case at that particular office.

The rule book is that police order from witch Lite Beer quoted above. There's no mentioning in those rules that the mere possession of a WP should make a difference - that piece of documentation only enters the picture if a foreigner wants to extend based on his Thai income. Otherwise it isn't even a requirement to provide copies of the WP, since it won't have any bearing on the application nor outcome.

When I got my third Thai wife dependent extension a few months ago, Chiang Mai immigration went by the book. We submitted the documentation for a JOINT income of 40,000 Baht regular employment income from our own company. Me 30,000 and wife 10,000 - no problem.

I think your main concern is that you MAY have a problem being grandfathered - not due to the possession of a WP, but because (if) your previous extension were given due to income. You can't tell the previous reasons by looking on your stamps, but immigration can tell from what's written in your file.

[Maestro]

...I have been here over ten years and have had no trouble, especially for the past three years, extending my Non-Imm O Visa on the basis of having a Thai Family. The visa was based on having the required funds on bank deposit. As I also have a work permit, the appropriate tax forms were submitted too. But to my understanding, it was the bank account that was the main issue for the authorities.

...the passport visa stamp is "THAI WIFE" on several occasions, so no ambiguity there. But that probably doesnt help as what I am being told is that even within the THAI WIFE category there is more than one interpretation of the visa requirements. :angry...

... if I now go for a Thai Wife visa based on no work, then I'll have to start under the new rules, which require income!!...

Additional information: we have been told that it all might depend on how the Thai Wife visa was set up right at the beginning. At that time, did we supply photos of us and the house; or did we just supply income details?! Well, we arent sure although we know we did supply a letter from my employer...

This is an interesting case and I would like to look at it in some more detail, using a timeline.

1998, ie ten years ago. Married to Thai wife and working. You qualified for two different types of extension: either “Thai wife” with proof of 200k in the bank OR “employment” with proof of income. If that first extension stamp says “Thai wife” then there is no question about it; you had an extension for Thai wife regardless of what documentation you submitted.

2005-2006. Because of the changes effective October 2006 it is important to know for what reason you received the last extension before October 2006. Does the last extension stamp before October 2006 say “Thai wife” or does it say “employment”?

2006-2007. The new regulations that took effect in October 2006 provide for a new, additional method of obtaining an extension of stay for “Thai wife”. Being also employed, you now had three choices: either “Thai wife” with proof of 400k in the bank OR “Thai wife” with 40k monthly family income OR “employment” with monthly income of 25k to 50k based on your nationality. Does your first extension stamp after October 1, 2006 say “Thai wife” or does it say “employment”?

a) If the extension stamp says “Thai wife” and because you apparently submitted documents to cover both methods of extension for “Thai wife”, we cannot be sure based on which of the two methods – money in the bank or family income – you were given the extension. We should assume that is was based on monthly family income of minimum 40k, because immigration tended to prefer that method if such income was earned and because the respective rule implies that money in the bank is not an option if the applicant has the requisite income.

This would then leave the question whether, having been on extensions for “Thai wife” with money in the bank before the new rules took effect, you could now change back to “Thai wife” with money in the bank because you no longer have the requisite minimum monthly family income. Sunbelt, shortly after October 2006, said it would be possible but I do not know if anybody has actually done it yet.

If the extension stamp says “employment”, I believe you definitely cannot change back to “Thai wife” with money in the bank. It would have to be with minimum monthly family income of 40k, whereby the part of the income earned by you could also be income earned abroad. Disregard the information you received from immigration through an intermediary that these 40k must be only from your income; it is definitely wrong. Disregard also the information you received that you cannot change back to extension for “Thai wife” because you still have a work permit. Because you no longer have the minimum income required for an extension for “employment” and because you are married to a Thai you now qualify for an extension for “Thai wife”. Note also that you are allowed to apply for a work permit – in your case for an extension of your work permit – while on an extension for “Thai wife”; it does not have to be an extension for “employment”. You do not have to cancel your work permit in order to apply for a new extension of stay, this time for "Thai wife".

Conclusion: as I see it, your options for the upcoming new extension depends on the answers to the two questions I have highlighted in red colour. Remember, however, also the option of a one-time extension of 60 days for visiting Thai wife based on paragraph 7.23 of Police Order No. 606/2549, which might tie you over while you make arrangements for the extension for “Thai wife” with family income of 40k, if necessary.

...a couple of weeks before the due date of visa extension...

Do not wait! Go now to immigration in person, or if you would like to use an intermediary, use a qualified legal expert like, for example, Sunbelt, who will probably be more familiar with current extension rules and current immigration practice than a former immigration officer and will be able to argue the rules in your favour, if necessary.

--

Maestro

[paulklee]

Maestro - many thanks for taking the time to go through this. See the additional info below, Imm has been reading your script!

You are absolutely right when you say this: This would then leave the question whether, having been on extensions for “Thai wife” with money in the bank before the new rules took effect, you could now change back to “Thai wife” with money in the bank because you no longer have the requisite minimum monthly family income. If I am not careful, then I will be required to go through the "income route" forever now, whereas obviously I want the "bank deposit" option!

To answer your specific questions in red, all of the Visa Extension stamps to which you refer, are THAI WIFE, not employment or business.

Additional info: after several tries, my wife was able to contact the 1111 Help Line. After a long explanation process (no wonder they dont get through too many calls!), the advice was - if everything was exactly as we said, then I should be able to get my visa extension as per normal on the basis of the bank balance. BUT of course, they said, this case is a bit unusual and the paperwork/process will give the final decision! So, not a bad result!

I believe we are due to go to Imm on the 6th Feb, so that's the decision day I guess (unless more paperwork is needed). In the meantime, thanks to everybody who tried to help, that's much appreciated. I will post back with the result after my meeting at Immigration.

[Maestro]

...all of the Visa Extension stamps to which you refer, are THAI WIFE, not employment or business...

I believe we are due to go to Imm on the 6th Feb, so that's the decision day I guess (unless more paperwork is needed). In the meantime, thanks to everybody who tried to help, that's much appreciated. I will post back with the result after my meeting at Immigration.

This puts you in an excellent situation, definitely qualifies you for a new extension of stay for “Thai wife”. When you go to immigration, make sure you do not confuse them with talk about income. You apply for an extension for “Thai wife” with 400k in the bank and that’s all you talk about. Well, there is of course the possibility that last time they put you on record as having extended for “Thai wife” with 40k monthly income, but as you no longer have this income it should be possible to extend this time again based on money in the bank.

I hope that with “due to go to Imm on the 6th Feb.” you do not mean that this is the expiration date of your current extension of stay, because if it were so I would advise you not to wait until the last day. Immigration prefers to receive applications with 3-4 weeks left on your permission to stay.

Anyway, my best wishes for a successful application.

--

Maestro

[Lite Beer]

Yes. Good Luck Paul.

Keep us informed.

[paulklee]

UPDATE

Went to Immig at Suan Plu this morning to extend the non-Immig Thai Wife Visa.

Although the result so far is good, it seems that our contact at Suan Plu is strictly speaking correct. As I STARTED the Thai Wife visa on the basis of earned income with a work permit (5 years ago in Samui), Immig would have been entitled to regard that as the default situation. However, for the past three years using Immig at Suan Plu, they have used the bank deposit as the basis of the Thai Wife Visa (although we still submitted earned income and tax details until this current application).

Today, my wife cunningly left all info regarding income and tax in the car, and we presented only bank deposit info as the basis for the Visa, and at this stage that seems OK, no tricky questions whatsoever, and only a five minute sit-down with the Officer after getting all papers into the correct order. I got the usual one month's visa for the application to be processed and I should pick up the new (extended) visa towards the end of February. For the first time, we also presented the photgraphs that seem to be usually required for a Thai Wife visa using the bank deposit criterion (yes, we had never provided photos before).

So, in one sense we have been a bit lucky because the first officer we saw at Suan Plu some years ago insisted on bank account deposit information and that has seemed to become the default for Suan Plu.

I will update once more after the visit to Suan Plu for the 12 month visa extension stamp. Thanks again to all those who helped me out with this.

[Lite Beer]

Baht per month. Except for the case

(6) In case of the applicant who is

married to a Thai wife, one of them

or both of them need to have the

total annual income that is

averaged out not less than 40,000

that the said foreign national has

entered Thailand before this Order

is enforced and the foreign national

has been permitted to stay in the

Kingdom by the result of having

married to a Thai wife, then if the

applicant does not have the said

income, then, the latest 3 months

records of the account book of any

Bank in Thailand with the account

name of either or both parties need

to have the amount of money not

less than 400,000 Baht.

Well done Paul. Personally I think you are still covered by the above. Specifically the bit about if the applicant does not have the said income.

[paulklee]

Hi Lite Beer

It is an interesting point. What you quote seems B&W, but the issues of having a work permit (still) and having "started the Thai Wife visa process on an income and tax basis" seems to lend some ambiguity, especially allowing the "grandfathering" flexibility from Oct 2006.

But alls well that ends well (and I hope it will ) and the point I raised originally should be academic for most if not all others. But who knows.......?

thanks again...