Queery In Thai Electrical 2 Pin Plug System

[Crossy]

I find all your query and the following comments very valuable since I am about to travel as a tourist to Thailand but I AM A WOMAN and not even British!!! therefore despite all my efforts to make sense of the technical explanation given...basically...

IS IT SAFE TO USE MY PERSONAL APPLIANCES THERE? (phone charger, hair dryer..)

Hi momomiaoo, where ARE you from?

Edited February 27, 2008 by Crossy

[Messmann]

Citizen33 wrote: Or better still on Crossy's site (link above) you will find a photo of this plug plus the adapter that I mentioned. It is really all there!

You are correct Crossy's site is very good My house is wired the best way as Crossy explain

Well, I wrote because farangs don't come only from UK or Australia but also USA and Japan

They can have problems because I know a few americans who got full containers with all electric goods and had a lot of problems to wire it e.g. powerfull transformers

If you come from a country with 220 V you can normaly use it. Most handhold electronics like charger for mobile phones and hairdryers are marked :Input 100V - 240V. If your equipment are american or japanese and marked 100V don't use it

[Crossy]

I find all your query and the following comments very valuable since I am about to travel as a tourist to Thailand but I AM A WOMAN and not even British!!! therefore despite all my efforts to make sense of the technical explanation given...basically...

IS IT SAFE TO USE MY PERSONAL APPLIANCES THERE? (phone charger, hair dryer..)

PM Sent.

For completeness repeated here. You will have no issues with UK appliances here, you just need an adaptor as shown on this page http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/plugs.html

Readily available in Thailand for 100 Baht or so

[tomo22]

Yes my house was built by a reputable well standing company then after checking two socket outlets less than a meter apart, were supplyed by different phases. Buy the way suposedly one of the best electrical installation companys in thailand was used.

wow , unbelievable, two phases in two sockets. that would not be easy in the same house. as you mention all your equipment blew up, one, have you sorted the problem, what was it?. and two at a guess from here have you got a phase and neutral supply or two phase supply. my guess would be they gave you a two phase supply and that sure would give your equipmrnt probs.

The house has a three phase supply so two sockets can be wired from different phases which is what the did. In the uk not allowed.

Because you have the potential of 415v. Lot worse than 240v

The electrical equipment that blew up tongue in cheak was from a lightning strike. I have now fitted lightning conductors and have not had the same problem again.

[tomo22]

Yes my house was built by a reputable well standing company then after checking two socket outlets less than a meter apart, were supplyed by different phases. Buy the way suposedly one of the best electrical installation companys in thailand was used.

wow , unbelievable, two phases in two sockets. that would not be easy in the same house. as you mention all your equipment blew up, one, have you sorted the problem, what was it?. and two at a guess from here have you got a phase and neutral supply or two phase supply. my guess would be they gave you a two phase supply and that sure would give your equipmrnt probs.

Fun eh? The apartment I'm in here in Bangalore (India) has triple outlets, each outlet is on a different phase!! Bloody lethal

Yes Bloody lethal I wonder what comment Jack has on that.

Buy the way from what I understand the Australians dont like multipl earths as you stated but that is I belive if they are no connected properly together. If you can not get the correct readings you must put in more earth rods to get them.

[tomo22]

The Thai electrical system is pretty bad. Putting earth rods into the ground is very easy.

However as there are long periods with no rain in Thailand it is advisable to put in three or four. These should be a minumum of 1 meter apart, then they can be connected together with heavy gauge cable and run to your consumer unit. Yes and if you can aford it ensure you have rcd's.

For showers and the like ELCB's Check that your neutral is neutral and not live at every outlet as Thai Electricians! very often cross them over. Dont use the cheap extension leads you can buy anywhere buy cable and make your own with a maximum of Two apliances per Lead.

Heavy gauge cable is essential to ensure that fault currents flow down the earth.

as an electrical engineer, i understand what your trying to say . sadly and dangerously, i dont think you do

Sadly and dangerously I am a member of the Instute of electrical Engineers.

I am an HV authorised person over several major sites.

Please explain

One Your Qualifications and two what is wrong with my statements so I can correct and not mislead anyone.

Easy to criticise not so easy to state a simple solution.

Now called the IET......with lots of good advice....

http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wiring-re...tions/index.cfm

We are also now in the process of adapting/upgrading to the new 17th Edition wiring Regs (Blighty /EU ...and the civilised world) so lots of reading ahead.......good advice on line......L1 L2 L3 ...no more Phases.....

Incid...Yes... I am also a Member.....

[tomo22]

Just want to advice that at least in my village, the electricity is distributed in a 2 phase delta configuration. That means that both wires in your socket is live. No +/- no neutral.

So do not assume that there will even be a neutral and a live wire.

Also if you have only 2 pronged outlets in your house, it is good advice to only use double insulated aplliances. This is easy to check. Just look for this symbol on your appliance:

Can you explain with a diagram Two phase Delta I have never heard off and can not comprehend.

Please do not take as criticism I just want to understand. So if both are live then what voltage to earth are each of the conductors to give you the required 220 240 PD

[Gimbo]

Just want to advice that at least in my village, the electricity is distributed in a 2 phase delta configuration. That means that both wires in your socket is live. No +/- no neutral.

So do not assume that there will even be a neutral and a live wire.

Also if you have only 2 pronged outlets in your house, it is good advice to only use double insulated aplliances. This is easy to check. Just look for this symbol on your appliance:

Can you explain with a diagram Two phase Delta I have never heard off and can not comprehend.

Please do not take as criticism I just want to understand. So if both are live then what voltage to earth are each of the conductors to give you the required 220 240 PD

Sorry I took quite a shortcut there. I meant of course that the distribution to the village (the wires in the masts) are of course 3 phase but in a delta configuration. This is then distributed "2" phase to the houses, instead of 1 Phase and Neutral.

Lets call the 3 lines L1, L2, and L3. To give each house 220V they connect house 1 with L1 and L2, house 2 with L1 and L3, House 3 wit L2 and L3 etc.

Hope that made it clearer. For the long and complicated explanation, look at this:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa37...01/ai_n21279210

[citizen33]

Just want to advice that at least in my village, the electricity is distributed in a 2 phase delta configuration. That means that both wires in your socket is live. No +/- no neutral.

So do not assume that there will even be a neutral and a live wire.

Also if you have only 2 pronged outlets in your house, it is good advice to only use double insulated aplliances. This is easy to check. Just look for this symbol on your appliance:

Can you explain with a diagram Two phase Delta I have never heard off and can not comprehend.

Please do not take as criticism I just want to understand. So if both are live then what voltage to earth are each of the conductors to give you the required 220 240 PD

Sorry I took quite a shortcut there. I meant of course that the distribution to the village (the wires in the masts) are of course 3 phase but in a delta configuration. This is then distributed "2" phase to the houses, instead of 1 Phase and Neutral.

Lets call the 3 lines L1, L2, and L3. To give each house 220V they connect house 1 with L1 and L2, house 2 with L1 and L3, House 3 wit L2 and L3 etc.

Hope that made it clearer. For the long and complicated explanation, look at this:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa37...01/ai_n21279210

It is interesting to hear about the variations that may exist in electricity supply in Thailand, and I wondered if I could ask those more familiar with system variations a question about grounding. I had assumed that the standard earthing system in rural areas would be TT (ie. with a direct connection to earth made in the house rather than via the supply). But just how general is that? I think I have also heard people say that some areas use MEN (taking neutral to earth at regular points in the supply like in Australia). Can anybody give an overview? If there are differences are there any circumstances where connecting an additional earth on the consumer side of the meter is problematic?

[egg6447]

Please do not take as criticism I just want to understand. So if both are live then what voltage to earth are each of the conductors to give you the required 220 240 PD

so i can stand by a earlier comment to you and birmingham.. try 110/120.. duh.. so much for your membership of i.e.e. on a side not all the wanabe sparks from eastern europe are getting i.e.e. qualified, beleive me when i say my friend is teaching them at colledge, yes they do have to go, and no they dont understand, pretty much like some people i cn touch with a short post

[egg6447]

hi citizen, well if your not elecricaly ofa, not easy to understand, not too many qualified people do. suffice it to say yes it is normal to provide a good earth at the consumer box/fuse board/circuit breaker. so do just that, it can be added any time but if an addition it starts to look messy. most of thailand in my limited experiance is earth/groundless.. if your fitting a earth/ground, it would be wise to fit MCB,s RCD,s double pole breakers ect. the double pole breaker is a good idea in los as pionted out before there is a tendancy to just connect the cables with no regard for polarity. make that essential. strange no one else mentioned this before.... as to the variation of supplies that are being reported here, i have never come accross any of these, excluding the earth problem. i can understand any or all in a fault/mistake situation , so outside of that as i say never come accross it in los. to tommo, why has your house got three phase, maybe your house is an extention to a industreal premises?.... to crosby, your 3ph sockets were in india right?. liked your link by the way, a lot of work there... back to citizen , the earthing of the neutral every given disance is all about potential , to maintain the potentail= equa potential, its better to have more than less. there all kinds of maths for this and equa potential is a lesson on its own. complicated but hope it helps. by the way there is a given case in the I.E.E,s, example, a cow standing in a farm yard, up to its knees in farm waste was electrocuted.. by the equa potential earth from its back legs to its front legs, approx 1.5 mts... veeery interesting.regards

[tatom]

Crossy,

Great website for a dummy like me, thanks. I do have some questions. I have an older Issan home, ungrounded. My biggest worry is the shower. As stated in your website , I was thinking of putting the shower unit outside the bathroom. Im assuming the danger would be in touching the unit itself. How about one of the shower units that are activated by turning on the water? It could be placed further away and the only thing that would be touched is the water valve.

Also, Im confused about grounding air conditioners and ceiling lights. They are not touched, the ac is remotely controled, so is this a saftey measure or to avoid neusance trips?

And lastly, my refridgerator is 2 meters from an outlet. I made an extension cord from normal electrical wire thinking it would be better than using an extension cord. Your website says not to do this. I was wondering why and would an extension cord, extended all the way be suficient?

Thanks again, Tom

[egg6447]

i dont know about you crossy but all the comments about two phase suplies is ludicrous. as a mistake ok. it would be noticed the first plug in. cant for the life of me accept this quote.. the national supply is 220v, phase and neutral. all electrical goods are 220v. there is no way these comments hold commen sence. jesus i,m getting wound up now. i,m going to crush a grape in a moment.

[tatom]

So, as I understand it, the danger is when there is a fault. Can someone please explane what a fault is.

[egg6447]

So, as I understand it, the danger is when there is a fault. Can someone please explane what a fault is.

hope your not on a wind up.

a fault can be a number of things, basicaly a appliance doesn,t work at all or is giveing a shock, a breaker/fuse/rcd/mcb, keeps releasing, ie breaking the circuit and many more probs , a simple lamp not comeing on when you switch it on. your shower question!!, it,ll probably be contact with the water that kills you rather than contact with the appliance. so if you find a way of putting that outside all will be well. thats just in case you are on a wind up.

[tatom]

Egg,

Sorry, but I have no idea what youre talking about. "on a wind up", must be a British thing, never heard of it. If it means being a wise guy, no, Im dead serious about my questions. I really have no idea how electricity works.

You say contact with the water is what will probably kill me, but then you say I should be ok if I put the shower unit outside. How will that help if the water is coming inside the bathroom and the water is what will kill me?

[egg6447]

ok, recap , put the shower unit where you find it convieniant, but please find a compitant electrician to fit it, where you,ll find one i dont know, word of mouth recomendation is always best, you need a good earth/ground, not less than 6mm twincable and earth = 3 seperate cores, preferably 10mm cable twin+earth = 3seperate cores. for the feed, not sure if all shower units these days have ELB,s built in but buy one that does, dont buy anything else, well thats my advise. regards

[tomo22]

hi citizen, well if your not elecricaly ofa, not easy to understand, not too many qualified people do. suffice it to say yes it is normal to provide a good earth at the consumer box/fuse board/circuit breaker. so do just that, it can be added any time but if an addition it starts to look messy. most of thailand in my limited experiance is earth/groundless.. if your fitting a earth/ground, it would be wise to fit MCB,s RCD,s double pole breakers ect. the double pole breaker is a good idea in los as pionted out before there is a tendancy to just connect the cables with no regard for polarity. make that essential. strange no one else mentioned this before.... as to the variation of supplies that are being reported here, i have never come accross any of these, excluding the earth problem. i can understand any or all in a fault/mistake situation , so outside of that as i say never come accross it in los. to tommo, why has your house got three phase, maybe your house is an extention to a industreal premises?.... to crosby, your 3ph sockets were in india right?. liked your link by the way, a lot of work there... back to citizen , the earthing of the neutral every given disance is all about potential , to maintain the potentail= equa potential, its better to have more than less. there all kinds of maths for this and equa potential is a lesson on its own. complicated but hope it helps. by the way there is a given case in the I.E.E,s, example, a cow standing in a farm yard, up to its knees in farm waste was electrocuted.. by the equa potential earth from its back legs to its front legs, approx 1.5 mts... veeery interesting.regards

Due to the eletrical loads instaled in mouse house example cookers fridges air conditioning etc. It has been wired in theree phase. Yes I can supply phot graphs and no it is not industrial it is in a full residential area and all outhe houses being tiny in comparison are wired in single phase.

Thats why you can get 415v between to adjacent circuits DAH. Just to confirm your priviouse post.

Yes I do understand Star and Delta circuits. My comment was realy based on never seing it In Thailand I should have been more specific.

No I am not eastern european. My qualification are British.

I wonder what yours are.

The earthing they put in my house was appalling. Earth loop impedance tests etc now it is brilliant. I am happy. Yes I agree with dual pole circuit breakers very much good point.

Also now I have fitted a good quality Lightning protection system due to being hit once and the fact that Thailand!! has the worst lightning strikes in the world.

[Cuban]

> Also now I have fitted a good quality Lightning protection system ...

If this is more than just simple "least resistance path to earth" as in the image below, could you expand upon the system please. I am looking to affect some strike protection on incoming telephone and power lines, and was thinking of some type of filter/spark gap - if nothing else running the supplies through the earth before entering the house. But also want to remove and induced voltage bumps.

[crazyeddie]

Hello there!

I find all your query and the following comments very valuable since I am about to travel as a tourist to Thailand but I AM A WOMAN and not even British!!! therefore despite all my efforts to make sense of the technical explanation given...basically...

IS IT SAFE TO USE MY PERSONAL APPLIANCES THERE? (phone charger, hair dryer..)

Thank you guys for helping

Mx

It is my belief that electrical power at the outlets here in Thailand is nominally 220VAC/50hz. If your personal appliances are rated for this voltage, they will work OK. If they are only rated for 120VAC (as in the USA), then they will burn out shortly. The 50 hz or cycles may make motors run a bit slower, if they are designed for a 60 hz input. I am not any kind of certified electrical engineer, just have 30 + years of experience, mainly in marine electrical systems. crazyeddie

[rockyysdt]

> Also now I have fitted a good quality Lightning protection system ...

If this is more than just simple "least resistance path to earth" as in the image below, could you expand upon the system please. I am looking to affect some strike protection on incoming telephone and power lines, and was thinking of some type of filter/spark gap - if nothing else running the supplies through the earth before entering the house. But also want to remove and induced voltage bumps.

Hi Cuban.

What material would constitute acceptable "GEM"?

I've never heard that expression before?

Whilst on the subject of power, I was requested to shorten an existing chain pendant hall light today.

To my displeasure, not only was the light (metal body) not earthed, the house was cabled with seventy year old rubber insulated cable.

The insulation of the Active and Neutral close to the light fitting had disintegrated and the bare wires were very close to the light fittings ceiling rose.

Cutting back to an insulated section only resulted in immediate disintegration of the rubber insultation.

I had to recable the entire section and terminate to a junction box.

There must be countless homes fitted with ancient rubber insulted power cable just waiting to fall apart on contact.

Edited June 10, 2008 by rockyysdt

[Cuban]

What material would constitute acceptable "GEM"? I've never heard that expression before?

Neither had I - but reading up on lightning protection some time ago it would appear to be a method of increasing the conductivity of the surounding soil (avoiding using the word earth) near the grounding rod in a lightning protection system. I have seen web sites detailing a design of thick walled but hollow rod that is filled with a salt (unsure of the compound) - the idea being that the salt dopes the surrounding soil and increases conductivity away from the grounding rod. Another interesting point was that the rod used was not straight but shaped to offer a greater cross section to the soil, this would require the rod to be buried rather than hammered into the soil straight. (Raising in my mind questions about the conductivity of non-compressed soil.)

......I had to recable the entire section and terminate to a junction box. There must be countless homes fitted with ancient rubber insulted power cable just waiting to fall apart on contact.

Indeed working on older electrical installations will often result in the need to re-cable a lot more than the original fault. But the number of house fires with a start point rooted in electrical faults does suggest that this is a worthwhile task.

[rockyysdt]

Neither had I - but reading up on lightning protection some time ago it would appear to be a method of increasing the conductivity of the surounding soil (avoiding using the word earth) near the grounding rod in a lightning protection system. I have seen web sites detailing a design of thick walled but hollow rod that is filled with a salt (unsure of the compound) - the idea being that the salt dopes the surrounding soil and increases conductivity away from the grounding rod. Another interesting point was that the rod used was not straight but shaped to offer a greater cross section to the soil, this would require the rod to be buried rather than hammered into the soil straight. (Raising in my mind questions about the conductivity of non-compressed soil.)

I often used to liase with "earth" installers, due to my involvement with new PABX installations.

After installation a conductivity test would be performed. If the reading wasn't acceptable, "cowboy" installers would douse the area with water to temporarily pass the test. A temporary GEM as the conductivity would reduce when the soil dried.

Would the use of salt as a GEM lead to corrosion of the earth spike causing high resistance due to rust?

Edited June 12, 2008 by rockyysdt

[ludosiam]

I'm very surprised that the possibility of a "safety cut" hasn't been mentioned here. This device is a current detector that detects any difference between the "live" wire and the neutral wire and in case there is a difference of a preset current locks off all electrical supply. For personal protection 25 - 30mA is sufficient and the issue of ground or no ground isn't that relevant anymore. When I did built my house I had a galvanized earth ring system put into the foundation, costs were a few 1000 THB and preferable to ground rods in my opinion

[p_brownstone]

I'm very surprised that the possibility of a "safety cut" hasn't been mentioned here. This device is a current detector that detects any difference between the "live" wire and the neutral wire and in case there is a difference of a preset current locks off all electrical supply. For personal protection 25 - 30mA is sufficient and the issue of ground or no ground isn't that relevant anymore. When I did built my house I had a galvanized earth ring system put into the foundation, costs were a few 1000 THB and preferable to ground rods in my opinion

A "safety cut" (actually there is a Thai manufactured item called "Safe-T-Cut") is an ELCB (Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker) this device is already mentioned in the Thread.

Patrick

Edited June 12, 2008 by p_brownstone

[chickenslegs]

I'm going to show my ignorance now - but I'm pretty sure that in my home in the uk the water supply pipe was used as the 'earth'. Electric showers and water heaters were connected to the cold water pipes with clamps and the main earth cable to the consumer unit was connected directly to the mains water pipe.

As water is a good conductor, wouldn't this work in Thailand (obviously, with plastic pipes, there would have to be a metal connection between the water and the earth cable) or have I missed the point entirely.

BTW - great link from CROSSEY - shouldn't it be pinned permanently on the DIY housing forum ?

Edited June 12, 2008 by chickenslegs

[Jimi007]

I'm going to show my ignorance now - but I'm pretty sure that in my home in the uk the water supply pipe was used as the 'earth'. Electric showers and water heaters were connected to the cold water pipes with clamps and the main earth cable to the consumer unit was connected directly to the mains water pipe.

As water is a good conductor, wouldn't this work in Thailand (obviously, with plastic pipes, there would have to be a metal connection between the water and the earth cable) or have I missed the point entirely.

BTW - great link from CROSSEY - shouldn't it be pinned permanently on the DIY housing forum ?

It is the metal pipe that is providing the earth contact, not the water inside the pipe.

[Crossy]

It is the metal pipe that is providing the earth contact, not the water inside the pipe.

Yup Pure water (even tap water is pretty pure) is a very poor conductor of electricity, add a little salt or simlar impurity (like from the sweat on your skin) and things change, a lot!

The wires you see in the UK (and other Western countries) joining water pipes, showers etc. are for what is known a 'equipotential bonding' (try Google) and is an important safety feature in homes with a lot of metal pipes.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Crossy

[rockyysdt]

I'm going to show my ignorance now - but I'm pretty sure that in my home in the uk the water supply pipe was used as the 'earth'. Electric showers and water heaters were connected to the cold water pipes with clamps and the main earth cable to the consumer unit was connected directly to the mains water pipe.

As water is a good conductor, wouldn't this work in Thailand (obviously, with plastic pipes, there would have to be a metal connection between the water and the earth cable) or have I missed the point entirely.

BTW - great link from CROSSEY - shouldn't it be pinned permanently on the DIY housing forum ?

I've seen backyard jobs where pretend plumbers upgrade corroded galvanised iron water pipes to plastic (very cost effective) without separating the the earth connection.

An Electrical Earth must never be connected to redundant water pipes as the grounding connection can become compromised. A definite drawback of this type of installation.

[Cuban]

Would the use of salt as a GEM lead to corrosion of the earth spike causing high resistance due to rust?

Indeed - I would have thought that if the soil were damp enough and the salt (technical use of the word 'salt' - IE not directly assuming Soduim Choride) in question provided a sufficient electrolyte would lead to electrolytic erosion of the earthing rod. I assume copper sulfates (?) as that was the usual answer in the dim distant days of chemistry studies rather than rust; using a copper rod rather than an iron based one.

I'll see if I can find the original article.

I will just underline, my comments in this particular thread relate to earthing rods used in connect with lightning protection rather that domestic elctrical wiring.