Canadian shot on a songthaew in Chiang Mai

[bungalowbill]

The Ottawa Citizen reported at 6:15 A.M. Thai time that an Ontario professor is apparently OK after having a bollet removed from his abdomen.

Investigating officer Lt. Wirachon Buntawee said police believe the bullet may have come from a nearby building and could have been discharged by somebody trying to shoot birds on a nearby telephone wire.

I can believe that.....In my building someone is always shooting at the pigeons from their window or terrace.

[farangene]

Now to the location, reported as outside Mandarin Oriental Dhara Dhevi hotel. This is a hotel for the well to do with cheapest rooms starting at 16,000B One report on the wires indicated that there were apparently distraught guests and they were making their concerns known. The authorities do not need or want people that spend lots of money getting upset for obvious reasons.

I think that the Mandarin Dhara Dhevi is owned by Thaksin Shinawatra (exiled Thai PM). The hotel certainly doesn't want its name connected with anything like this.

I hope for a speedy recovery to the injured man.

[cclub75]

Another astonishing bad luck string of events...

Someone wants to shoot a bird, from his window, on a cable downward

-first bad luck : he doesn't see that downward there is -unfortunatly- a street, with moving objects (cars, motobikes, people etc.) and that it's obviously a dangerous situation

-second bad luck : he misses the bird.

-third bad luck : the moving songthaew arrives a this very precise moment, and crosses the trajectory of the bullet

-fourth bad luck : on the songthaew there is not a thai (which from a statistical point of view would be much more likely) but a canadian tourist.

-fifth bad luck : it seems that the bullet went through the -small- open space between roof and the piece of wood on which people put their back, therefore hitting the tourist, without obstacle.

...

Anyway. When the caliber of the firearm will be known, it should help... as for the ..."bird theory".

[jonniebkk]

What is this...the 3rd Canadian tourist killed or injured in the past couple weeks...I didn't think that many Canadians came to Thailand in a year

[Frotting]

I posted this link on the Thread relating to the murder of Dale Henry. It's an article written about gun deaths and shootings in Thailand, and tries to understand (and fails to answer) why Thailand apparently has more callous psychopaths per capita than everywhere except Columbia. This seems to be at odds with their 'polite' Buddhist 'Jai yen' demeanor.

Anyway, it's well worth a read for those that haven't. It gives some very disturbing statistics (verifyable), that should make anybody think twice about a Thai holiday or settling here. I think a few of us are going to be turning our backs on this country. And for the earlier poster who mentioned Thais speaking about the 'gun culture' of other countries, Thailand is number 3 in the world for gun-related deaths, after South Africa and Columbia. That fact really surprised me. The link is below:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=1612

[tijnebijn]

I don't believe the explanation .

How a bullet can go down in a sharp line ?

Not when missing a bird up in the air .

No but someone aiming at the songtaew , to the farang or not

besides , it was aimed no doubt !

If the car was moving , perhaps the aim was on the driver , depends

on what side the bullet hit on the car .

Anyway , another thing that it is rediculous , because the people are regarded high-so

that they are worth accordingly better treatment then for example a backpacker .

Just utter rediculous statement that was .

speedy recovery for the unlucky victim , with I hope a speedy recovery .

[Briggsy]

If the bird theory turns out to be the case, how many times has the bird-hunter shot in this area before? If often, then it was just a matter of time before he hit somebody.

cclub, I understand what you are saying but you might want to change "bad luck" to "extremely low chance of happening". Your post may be misinterpreted. Somebody will say discharging a firearm in a busy street is not bad luck but I can see that is not your point.

[mikethevigoman]

An awful lot of people still don't understand that firing weapons in their air means that the bullets still come down with deadly force. Been to more than a few parties (yes, I DO actually attend more than a few country weddings) where some idiot will start shooting out of celebration.

Sorry Heng but, bullets fired upwards will always come down but not with deadly force.... bullets fired down will.

Sorry Thaddeus but sometimes they do come down with deadly force. A motorcycle taxi driver was killed by such a bullet (through the top side of his shoulder and down into several vital organs) outside of the Hua Mark police station/Ramakhamhaeng Uni shooting range several years ago. I'd imagine you can probably google for other instances around the world as well.

I think if the bullet was fired in the air and ran out of velocity the fall from it would not kill, however if a farang landed on you from a 50 storey freefall your chances of sustaining injury/death would be greater ..both are very unlikely to happen to youl

[Frotting]

Another astonishing bad luck string of events...

Someone wants to shoot a bird, from his window, on a cable downward

-first bad luck : he doesn't see that downward there is -unfortunatly- a street, with moving objects (cars, motobikes, people etc.) and that it's obviously a dangerous situation

-second bad luck : he misses the bird.

-third bad luck : the moving songthaew arrives a this very precise moment, and crosses the trajectory of the bullet

-fourth bad luck : on the songthaew there is not a thai (which from a statistical point of view would be much more likely) but a canadian tourist.

-fifth bad luck : it seems that the bullet went through the -small- open space between roof and the piece of wood on which people put their back, therefore hitting the tourist, without obstacle.

...

Anyway. When the caliber of the firearm will be known, it should help... as for the ..."bird theory".

I think you'll find it's a simple case of Manslaughter rather than bad luck. People should not discharge firearms in populated areas (unless they intend to kill someone of course). In the UK, you can get 10 years for even posessing a firearm illegally. The chances are the firearm was illegal. As for the calibre, an air rifle would be sufficient for birds. My guess this was a lot more powerful.

Like a few of the others have said, it's unlikely the culprit will be identified and the 'turf war' idea sounds plausible - this kind of <deleted> goes on in Thailand.

It really is time govenments in Eurpoe/Canada/America issued warnings about travel here. It's different if you know already and take the risk, but presently the perception of Thailand that most Europeans have is totally out of step with reality

[Arkady]

It would be nice if the police showed signs of conducting a vigorous investigation to find out who the shooter was. If they think it came from a nearby building, they should have gone through all the buildings the shot could have been fired from like a dose of salts. Some one probably saw the shot being fired or has a good idea about who might have done it. They know what type of bullet was used. They should search the nearby buildings for some one who owns a registered gun of this caliber as a start. I think one of the newpaper reports said it was a .22 caliber. If so, this is not a pistol caliber used often by criminals due its small size and low power which mean the shooter has to get up close and shoot accurately. On the other hand there are quite a lot of .22 caliber rifles in Thaiand and they use the same ammunition as .22 pistols. I think most .22 rifles and and pistols in Thailand are owned by target shooters. If it is a .22, their job is easier because most .22 guns in Thailand are registered, since they are not in demand by criminals.

If the shooting were deliberate, the shooter would have had to have been very close to have hit his target, particularly if the songthaew was moving. Even if he just wanted to hit anyone in the songthaew, he would still have had to be quite close. With a .22 rifle, he could have been farther away but even 50 yards would be a stretch with a moving target. Maybe it was some nutter shooting at a bird or something from a nearby building but then the police should have a reasonable chance of identifying that person, if they could give a dam_n. It would be a different matter, if the victim were a Thai VIP for sure.

Some one asked whether any Thai citizen could buy a gun. The answer is that it varies a little from province to province but it is generally fairly easy. There are some basic qualifications which are or used to be something like being over 20, have at least Baht 40,000 in a bank account, a letter from employer. Then you need a letter from your local police station confirming that you have not been in any trouble and are suitable to own a gun in their eyes which is pretty much a formality. With payment of a modest bribe which the gun store owner will take care of for you, you get the license in a few weeks. You can buy most types of pistol, although more powerful handguns, such as .45s and .357 magnums require a slightly more detailed vetting process. Also most types of shotgun, including unsporting looking pistol grip pump actions and semi-autos, can be registered without difficulty and .22 rifles. Rifles bigger than .22 need to be imported with special permission which is hard to obtain. Even foreigners with house registration certificates can apply for a gun license and the process for them is the same as for Thais. The basic permit allows the gun owner to keep a gun and ammunition at his registered address for use in defending persons and property there. It is valid for life. A permit to carry a gun outside the home is very much more difficult to obtain and is valid only for one year at a time. There is also a large black market in guns in Thailand and there are probably more unregistered weapons than registered ones. This is partly because criminals want untraceable guns but also because registered guns are too expensive for most Thais due the taxes and the quota system that make them sell for about three times as much as in the US. Many ordinary Thais buy illegal guns to save money, even though they just want them for home protection, and would be happy to buy a legal gun, if the price were affordable.

Edited February 14, 2008 by Arkady

[Kerryd]

If the police are going to do a serious investigation, they may want to focus on the driver of the song thaew. It is quite likely that he may have been the actual target, and Mr Griffioen was the unfortunate victim of a lousy shooter.

(While on a "Peace-Keeping" tour in Croatia in 92/93, I was shot at at least 7 times by people hiding in old buildings or back in the trees away from the road. The fortunate thing was that the people doing the shooting did not know how to "lead" the target.

The shooter(s) would fire a shot at the driver of a moving vehicle, but by the time the bullet got there, it would strike the back of the vehicle or miss it altogether.

It took us a little while to figure out where all the holes in the back of our trucks kept coming from. Our old 2 1/2 ton trucks made such a racket you could barely hear your co-driver in the cab, let alone the sound of shots being fired from a hidden location. Once we figured out what was happening, we made sure to keep any "sensitive" cargo as far forward in the truck as possible.)

Keep in mind that a vehicle travelling 10 mph (16 km/hr) will travel about 14.5 feet (almost 3 meters) in a second. A 9mm pistol round can have a muzzle velocity of over 1,200 feet per second. So, a shot fired from 400 feet away at a the driver of a vehicle travelling at 10 mph would (likely) hit up to a meter (3 feet) behind the intended target.

There are many variables to take into account (distance the shooter was from the target, type of weapon used, speed of the vehicle, even weather conditions and the relative height from where the shot was fired to where the victim was hit, can all factor in to trying to determine where the shot came from, and who the actual target may have been.

[slapout]

cclub75: I have found luck to be the result of a decision make by one or more individuals. In this case, the tourist had the bad luck of being in the songthaew at the wrong place and time. I hope he has a swift recovery. The other decision in this case was, some retarded wannabe sharpshooter discharged a firearm in a totally reckless manner without any fore thought to other people or property. I hope the police find him or her, so charges can be pressed, to the full extent of the law.

[Frotting]

I found a site that carries the gun death statistics for several countries. The link is posted below.

The results of these statistics are amazing. The top three countries are at least an order of magnitude above the fourth, which unbelievably is Zimbabwe (I thought they would have ranked higher).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...arms-per-capita

I suppose this indicates that shootings of the kind we've been reading about here over the last month, are the rule, rather than the exception in Thailand. The rest of the world should be made aware.

[A_Traveller]

Can we please stop referring to Nationmaster and the flawed UN report. If anyone was to search herein they would find detailed analysis of these spurious figures. To be fair they were generated by the then Thai authorities, but were/are clearly in error. e.g they don't add up. There are real 'violence' and firearms problems here, but quoting old {2006} articles and bringing up these stats which were erroneously used as the basis for the article help no one.

Regards

PS At one time there was a rebuttal, of the statistics highlighting the errors, on the NM site but it appears to have been 'lost'.

/edit add ps and clarify/

Edited February 14, 2008 by A_Traveller

[Jai Dee]

Canadian scientist shot in Thailand

Hamilton man recovering in hospital

A Canadian scientist whose work helps map ozone depletion over the Arctic was shot and wounded while travelling with his wife in a popular tourist area of Thailand Wednesday.

Erik Griffioen, 49, of Hamilton, is recovering in a hospital in Chiang Mai, the northern Thai city where he was shot while riding with his wife in the back of an open-air taxi on their way for a three-day trip of elephant riding and mountain hiking.

"My daughter-in-law called me this morning and told me he was shot and he had a bullet in his abdomen. They removed that in the hospital and I am told he is doing OK," said Johanna Griffioen, his mother.

"They left Canada in early January. His wife had a conference in South Africa in March and so they thought they'd make a nice long holiday out of it -- not realizing, of course, what would happen," she said from her home in Kitchener, Ont.

Dr. Griffioen was with his wife, Elizabeth Ling, an anaesthetist at the Henderson General Hospital in Hamilton, at the time.

Dr. Ling spoke of the shock of the shooting and her husband's seven hours of surgery.

"We checked out of our hotel at 8:30 and got picked up by a guide to go on a three-day trek outside Chiang Mai and we were sitting in the back of our songthaew taxi," Dr. Ling told CBC News.

Just five or six minutes into the trip in the back of one of the converted pick-up trucks widely used as public transit in Thailand she heard an explosion.

"We actually thought maybe the tire blew and then I thought that sounds like a gun shot and my husband right away started screaming and fell over in the back of the taxi and when I lifted up his shirt I could see blood and actually saw the entry wound for the bullet," she said.

"We got the taxi to stop right away and the two guides ran out to see if they could see anything on the street but there was not really anything to see and we went immediately to the hospital.

"He was conscious all the time. He was in a bit of pain. We couldn't really see an exit wound for the bullet. When we got into emerg, right away they started treating him and doing an investigation."

Dr. Griffioen was in stable but serious condition, yesterday. Thai police said the shooting appeared to be random, perhaps a shot taken from a nearby apartment building.

Dr. Griffioen specialized in atmospheric physics at York University and worked at the university's Centre for Research in Earth and Space Science for several years before moving to Hamilton and switching his interest to radiation treatment and taking a position at a Mississauga cancer clinic.

In the 1990s, he calculated and developed a complicated scientific model for measuring light scattering in the atmosphere and wrote the computer code for an international satellite project to monitor the ozone layer over the Arctic.

"He's a bright fellow and an excellent sportsman. He plays ice hockey, a good game of tennis, squash," said Jack McConnell, his former supervisor at York.

Dr. Griffioen is the fourth Canadian shot in Thailand in recent months. Despite the rash of violence, there is no need for tourists to avoid that country, said a spokeswoman at the Royal Thai Embassy in Ottawa.

The Canadian government is aware of the shooting of a Canadian but declined to provide any details.

"We have been in contact with local authorities and are offering consular assistance," said Shaun Tinkler, a spokesman for Foreign Affairs Canada.

Source: National Post - 14 February 2008

[Maigo6]

Dr. Griffioen is the fourth Canadian shot in Thailand in recent months. Despite the rash of violence, there is no need for tourists to avoid that country, said a spokeswoman at the Royal Thai Embassy in Ottawa.

Source: National Post - 14 February 2008

What else would they say.

[sayitaintso]

Dr. Griffioen is the fourth Canadian shot in Thailand in recent months. Despite the rash of violence, there is no need for tourists to avoid that country, said a spokeswoman at the Royal Thai Embassy in Ottawa.

Source: National Post - 14 February 2008

What else would they say.

They could say that they are working on solving each of these and preventing future occurences and they have appointed Somkid Phumuang as the new police minister responsible for bringing those responsible to justice?

[Arkady]

I found a site that carries the gun death statistics for several countries. The link is posted below.

The results of these statistics are amazing. The top three countries are at least an order of magnitude above the fourth, which unbelievably is Zimbabwe (I thought they would have ranked higher).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...arms-per-capita

I suppose this indicates that shootings of the kind we've been reading about here over the last month, are the rule, rather than the exception in Thailand. The rest of the world should be made aware.

These numbers are probably flawed as A Traveller says. Thailand's order of magnitude over the US looks much too high, although the rankings don't look too out of whack. Anyway there are a lot guns in private hands in Thailand. I remember seeing a number of 30 million registered guns and more than that unregistered a few years ago. There are also a lot shooting deaths and other shooting incidents reported. Fortunately there are not too many fun killings, as you get in the West, yet, although the new craze of throwing rocks through car windscreens from bridges is a nasty trend in that direction. Nevertheless, a foreigner's chance of being shot during a robbery or in a "loss of face" honor killing are much higher than in most Western countries and visitors should be warned.

I don't know where Zimbabwe really stands in relation to this but a lot of shootings by security forces are simply not reported. A local told me he got stuck in his office in Harare overnight during a curfew and police gunned down tens of people in the street outside rioting about food prices, while the office workers stayed quiet with the lights off not wanting to tempt the police to come in and perform "silence killings". In the morning the bodies were all gone with the blood mopped up and nothing was reported in the newspapers. On the other hand, it is much harder for individuals to own guns legally in Zimbabwe than in Thailand but a much higher percentage of murder victims are probably killed with machetes or other implements.

[Frotting]

Since like a lot of you, I live in Thailand, and given the tragedies over the previous month and increasing violence toward farang. I have some suggestions for expatriate home design in the Land of Smiles. See below:

And for the discerning motorist. May I suggest one of the following?

No...I am definitely not joking.

[BigSnake]

Be careful folks. This is the land of smiles but there are some bad people behind those smile. BEWARE on any public Transport after dark be extra aware of where about and surrounding.

[BigSnake]

Since like a lot of you, I live in Thailand, and given the tragedies over the previous month and increasing violence toward farang. I have some suggestions for expatriate home design in the Land of Smiles. See below:

And for the discerning motorist. May I suggest one of the following?

Sorry my friend but I for one want to live in Thailand in PEACE not in a JAIL. Agree the crime rate is up, so our best bet is to stay aware and inform beside it is illegal for farangs to own weapons in Thailand.

No...I am definitely not joking.

Edited February 14, 2008 by BigSnake

[Tony Clifton]

No mention of anyone hearing the shot?

Came from inside a building or maybe another vehicle, or it was heard as a backfire.

[brahmburgers]

I think Arabs are the world champs at firing in the air. However, back to topic....

It's particularly frustrating when, in cases like this, there seems to be little avenue for investigation and apprehension of a culprit.

The vicitm's wife might be able to roughly gauge where, during the drive, her husband slumped over. From that general area, police could investigate upper level places where a shooter could have been. That would include searches for firearms at apartments, offices, etc in the premises in question. Supposedly, there's a bullet that can be subject to a ballistics test.

Unfortunately, Thai law enforcement doesn't do such dynamic things to find wrongdoers. It's easier to give a quick knee jerk assessment of the situation (former PM Thaksin did that instantly - every time a crime was reported to him) ....and give it a big yawning 'mai pen rai.'

I once went with Thai police to a suspected thieves residence. The police stood around outside with their hands in their pockets, joking and smoking cigs, while I went inside and confronted the residents. The other extreme was another time when I caught a thief red-handed stealing from my house. The cops showed up a half hour later and took turns slugging and slapping the guy in my living room. A few cops took turns kneeing the suspect in the mid-range area.

Is there no protocol for dealing with investigations in this country? Is seems to be either dough-headed indiference or bullying? Is there no manual on how to conduct professional and effective investigations?

[Mosha]

No mention of anyone hearing the shot?

Came from inside a building or maybe another vehicle, or it was heard as a backfire.

The article in full is here

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/02/13/t...of.html?ref=rss

It says the heard a loud bang and initially thought a tyre had burst.

[DP25]

I found a site that carries the gun death statistics for several countries. The link is posted below.

The results of these statistics are amazing. The top three countries are at least an order of magnitude above the fourth, which unbelievably is Zimbabwe (I thought they would have ranked higher).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...arms-per-capita

I suppose this indicates that shootings of the kind we've been reading about here over the last month, are the rule, rather than the exception in Thailand. The rest of the world should be made aware.

Yes, that's the site your Chiang Mai article got it's statistics from, and has been discussed here before. Unfortunately, the statistic of 20,000 gun murders per year is wrong due to a mistranslation of the official Thai police statistics. 20k is the number of gun crimes, not gun murders, committed per year in Thailand. That includes murder, but also robbery, assualt, and illegal possession. Since these per capita statistics are based on the faulty 20k per year number, they are completely wrong as well. The total number of murders per year in Thailand is 5-6k, which per capita is twice as high as the US, but no where near as bad as is made out in the article you posted earlier. There do not appear to be statistics on the method of murder committed in Thailand.

[TAWP]

An awful lot of people still don't understand that firing weapons in their air means that the bullets still come down with deadly force. Been to more than a few parties (yes, I DO actually attend more than a few country weddings) where some idiot will start shooting out of celebration.

Sorry Heng but, bullets fired upwards will always come down but not with deadly force.... bullets fired down will.

What goes up, must come down.. and normally with the same force (newtons law or summat)

Totster

That is only true if

1 - there is no airresistance

2 - the bullet tumbles perfectly upon altered vertical velocity.

3 - gravity was constant no matter the distance from earth...

Edited February 14, 2008 by TAWP

[Blinky Bill]

An awful lot of people still don't understand that firing weapons in their air means that the bullets still come down with deadly force. Been to more than a few parties (yes, I DO actually attend more than a few country weddings) where some idiot will start shooting out of celebration.

Sorry Heng but, bullets fired upwards will always come down but not with deadly force.... bullets fired down will.

What goes up, must come down.. and normally with the same force (newtons law or summat)

Totster

Depending on the calibre a bullet will leave the muzzle of a gun at speeds from subsonic to over 3,500 feet per second. Bullet weights vary from 20 grains to 100's of grains. (100 grains = 6.5 grams = 0.23 ounces). When a bullet is fired it will eventually run out of speed and fall out of the sky. If it is fired vertically it will run out of speed at its zenith then gravity takes over and brings it back to earth at speeds of perhaps about 300 feet second. A small streamlined object falling at this speed can caused fatal injuries if it strikes a vulnerable part of the body, ie. top of the head. It is deadly until it is buried in the earth.

[elephantkungfu]

i remember reading in the bangkok post last year about a kid who was killed by a stray bullet, they traced it to a policeman who shot at a snake in a tree a mile away from the boy.

i guess something similar happened here. i've heard about songtaew mafias... but are they really going to shoot someone over a 15 baht fare? but the wife said she heard the gun shot. (she thought is was a puncture). so the shooter must have been close-by.

another thing i don't get. they said the bullet was removed from his abdomen. so the bullet can't have come through the side windows otherwise he would have been hit in the neck/back. i guess he must have been sitting right on the back, almost hanging out of it. how else can a stray bullet enter a songtaew and hit a guy in his abdomen. it sounds like a jfk magic bullet.

wishing the scientist a speedy recovery...

[sriracha john]

Video of CBC Television newscast on the story including an exclusive interview with his wife:

http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/vsu/wmv-hi/sal...hoot-080213.wmv

"Long known as safe and friendly for tourists, Thailand has been downright dangerous for Canadians recently."

"...but, this is the third Canadian tourist shot in Thailand within the last six weeks."

The CBC report refers to three Canadians being shot, specifically Carly, Leo and Erik. No mention of Dale Henry?

Good point.... but I suppose they aren't labelling him a tourist and was therefore omitted in their statement...

still... the only-slightly-modified-statement,

"This is the fourth Canadian shot in Thailand within the last six weeks"

would be factually accurate.

Shocking.

[katana]

Canadian scientist shot in Thailand

Hamilton man recovering in hospital

...Just five or six minutes into the trip in the back of one of the converted pick-up trucks widely used as public transit in Thailand she heard an explosion.

"We actually thought maybe the tire blew and then I thought that sounds like a gun shot and my husband right away started screaming and fell over in the back of the taxi...

Source: National Post - 14 February 2008

As someone else said earlier, the sound of the gunshot appeared to be simultaneous with the victim being hit, which suggests the shot was close by, and not a bullet coming down to earth several tens of seconds later after being fired.