Sinsot Question (yet Another One)

[BlueFeb]

Thanks again to everyone. Here are some responses.

There's no land involved or house, they are city people.

They lived for a long time in Phuket but originally the dad is from the south and the mother is from the north.

I've never been asked for any money or financial help of any kind. At the moment both sisters help support them. It's a good point about what happens if this changes in the future if she's not working. Sounds like another hot potato.

I do not want to lose the girl over 200K. I suspect most people would say they wouldn't want to lose their partner for much larger sums however that doesn't mean they'll be paying it as a gift.

Khun Jean and the rest who raised this - point taken about being firm, I usually am when I know what I'm talking about. In this case I didn't have sufficient knowledge and understanding to have full conviction in one way or another and stick to it.

Mahout - I believe my education cost a tad more ;-) and I don't have a student loan I'm still paying. In my culture parents of both sides give money if they can to the new couple to help them start their life, not the other way around.

blizzard - it's not a Thai business, it's worse, my income is in USD lol

shochu - I have no idea what the money will be used for, I've not asked, it seems to me that once this is given as a gift it's entirely up to them what they want to do with it. Is this a normal thing to ask what the money will be used for?

So in conclusion so far it appears that this amount isn't unreasonable for this particular set of circumstances if one chooses to carry out this custom. It also appears I should be asking them to pay for the entire ceremony if I accept the 200K/400K arrangement.

[Maigo6]

The family expected me to pay for everything (Sin Sod) and took it gladly... obviously stereotypes but interesting all the same...

And no doubt you paid for everything and paid sin sot too, why is it interesting that poor people keep the sin sot, I suppose poor Farangs would give it all back, yeah right.

Most Farang come from countries with a Social Security system that takes care of aging parents, a system that will educate even the poorest of kids, free school dinners, free handouts for the parents if they cannot or don't want to work, Thailand is different, that is why hoardes of unmarried men from more prosperous societies flock to poor countries to look for partners.

Yet they seem outraged that the poor people they meet have poor families too, do you in your wildest dreams believe that if that same family was rich you would even meet them ?

You are accepted because you can make their lives a little bit easier, if genuine love and affection follow, then good for you, lets face it chaps, you never came to Thailand with the intention of meeting rich girls did you ?

I know, I know, ThaiVisa members are different..........

If it's Asian women that do it for you, why don't hoardes of Western men head to Tokyo to meet Asian women ?

They flock to SE Asian countries to take advantage of the countries poverty, then seem stunned that poor people are poor.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Maigo6

[LoveDaBlues]

It seems there are an endless line of folks around here who are too embarrassed to say to the gal AND parents if possible "well, the issue is my Thai friends who have gotten married have all gotten the sin sod returned to the couple... so I'm unclear why you intend to keep a portion/all of it." Now, I've actually heard of a few Thais not having their sin sods returned, but those were typically arranged marriages where the bride and groom were like 20-40 years apart age wise... but for regular plain jane weddings; two people of similar age and means, there was never any question of it being returned (and in fact in quite a few cases, I loaned the funds out to put on the tray... so I know it was returned).

This is a good post. I think for the very poor in Issan it's more likely to be the norm where the money is kept and not returned. I've seen sinsod as low as 60K(VERY poor families involved); I suspect the money was kept but no way to be sure.

[LoveDaBlues]

The family expected me to pay for everything (Sin Sod) and took it gladly... obviously stereotypes but interesting all the same...

And no doubt you paid for everything and paid sin sot too, why is it interesting that poor people keep the sin sot, I suppose poor Farangs would give it all back, yeah right.

Most Farang come from countries with a Social Security system that takes care of aging parents, a system that will educate even the poorest of kids, free school dinners, free handouts for the parents if they cannot or don't want to work, Thailand is different, that is why hoardes of unmarried men from more prosperous societies flock to poor countries to look for partners.

Yet they seem outraged that the poor people they meet have poor families too, do you in your wildest dreams believe that if that same family was rich you would even meet them ?

You are accepted because you can make their lives a little bit easier, if genuine love and affection follow, then good for you, lets face it chaps, you never came to Thailand with the intention of meeting rich girls did you ?

I know, I know, ThaiVisa members are different..........

If it Asian women that do it for you, why don't hoardes of Western men head to Tokyo to meet Asian women ?

They flock to SE Asian countries to take advantage of the countries poverty, then seem stunned that poor people are poor.

spot on post. My wife of a few years was even honest enough to tell me that; instead of the normal "you so handsum man" lol.

[Smithson]

If you're living together, why not just avoid the subject for a while? If marriage is necessary for visa the go to the registry office, takes about 1 hr. Explain due to the low US$ you don't have the funds, so it'll have to wait. Everybody talks about Thais paying sin sot, but from what I see most just live together.

I'm still curious as to whether a Thai man has ever offered sin sot when marrying a farang woman?

[Heng]

It seems there are an endless line of folks around here who are too embarrassed to say to the gal AND parents if possible "well, the issue is my Thai friends who have gotten married have all gotten the sin sod returned to the couple... so I'm unclear why you intend to keep a portion/all of it." Now, I've actually heard of a few Thais not having their sin sods returned, but those were typically arranged marriages where the bride and groom were like 20-40 years apart age wise... but for regular plain jane weddings; two people of similar age and means, there was never any question of it being returned (and in fact in quite a few cases, I loaned the funds out to put on the tray... so I know it was returned).

This is a good post. I think for the very poor in Issan it's more likely to be the norm where the money is kept and not returned. I've seen sinsod as low as 60K(VERY poor families involved); I suspect the money was kept but no way to be sure.

Yeah, it's logically more likely among the poor, but I'm saying that even among the relatively less well off (well, to be blunt, yes poor... because the amounts involved were in the same ballpark: 50-100-at most 300-400k Baht; only very rarely more than that) folks I've lent sin sod funds to, it was returned.

[nidge]

If you pay, you'll pay for ever.

Really? Are you sure? I know one farang who paid 500,000 sin sod, was given back 100,000 when he bought a house and the family has never asked him for another baht. In fact sometimes when he offers his mother in law money she refuses saying she does not need it.

The other sister in the family married a thai and he paid 300,000.

Not all thai families are gold diggers and not all farangs are as tight as ducks a55holes.

[camerata]

Stickman didn't write "Why I Never Married A Thai." Moreover, it is one of the best commentaries on Thai women ever written by a farang anyway.

I agreed with the author on two things that he said. One was, "I still have much to learn about Thailand and Thai culture." The other was where he said he had a "very narrow Calvinist/Puritanist view of the world." Otherwise, the whole article can be summed up as the author's refusal to marry any woman who doesn't share his Western values.

[Heng]

If you're living together, why not just avoid the subject for a while? If marriage is necessary for visa the go to the registry office, takes about 1 hr. Explain due to the low US$ you don't have the funds, so it'll have to wait. Everybody talks about Thais paying sin sot, but from what I see most just live together.

I'm still curious as to whether a Thai man has ever offered sin sot when marrying a farang woman?

Have only seen a handful of Thai fella + farang gal weddings, and yes, there were sin sod ceremonies involved, and typically the gals mum (in a few cases only the dad was around) got involved to do that little bundling up of the pile of cash/slinging it over her back thing.

Paradorn did for Natalie. Double digit milllions. Prame also did for Tata Young (although she's just a luk krung, of course, but yes her dad was in the ceremony as well)... in excess of 100 million in cash and stock as I recall.

All "returned" as well as far as I know.

Returned is not really the correct word, as most know, because the cash and goods are never taken anywhere and are just out of the bride and groom's prensence for a few minutes. As modern tradition has it, after the watering ceremony, the bride and groom often spend the afternoon returning the cash to the respective bank accounts (either theirs, relatives, or money lenders).

p.s. What's funny is that I got this deja vu feeling while typing this and found I had typed just about the same thing half a year ago on this forum. Round and round we go.

[LoveDaBlues]

If you pay, you'll pay for ever.

Really? Are you sure? I know one farang who paid 500,000 sin sod, was given back 100,000 when he bought a house and the family has never asked him for another baht. In fact sometimes when he offers his mother in law money she refuses saying she does not need it.

The other sister in the family married a thai and he paid 300,000.

Not all thai families are gold diggers and not all farangs are as tight as ducks a55holes.

[dee123]

If you pay, you'll pay for ever.

Really? Are you sure? I know one farang who paid 500,000 sin sod, was given back 100,000 when he bought a house and the family has never asked him for another baht. In fact sometimes when he offers his mother in law money she refuses saying she does not need it.

The other sister in the family married a thai and he paid 300,000.

Not all thai families are gold diggers and not all farangs are as tight as ducks a55holes.

......QUACK !! ......P.S. Hi Nidge , I think my missus met with your missus recently in tesco......but we now back in U.K . Hope all goes well for you,

[dee123]

......LOOK everyone .".Creeling " the bridegroom is a much better idea than sinsod........I've really not got a problem with carrying rocks on my back for a few hours

Edited February 23, 2008 by dee123

[Naam]

.......your a star Khun Jean....

i fully agree! Khun Jean's solution is feasible and face saving for all parties involved.

[KireB]

Jaiyenyen, you hit the nail on the head...

'If you are prepared to lose your woman for 200000baht then I have to question your commitment.'

Case closed, nothing more to say.

If your women is prepared to dump you over 200,000 baht, how much does she love you?

I'll give her 200k never to return.

Sinsod is not about money, neither is the refusal!

But than again, you have nothing more to say!

[dee123]

.......you marry a Thai lady..ok........she gets the chanve to work in u.k ....or usa ...or where ever......you might have funds to buy property in Thailand,.........and then on top of that she wants you to creel! ???

[game4shame]

This is the culture in Thailand .we belive longtime ago about mom and dad improtant.if you good take care mom and dad good the furture you will lucky.you give the money for them 200k the furture money return you back more than that.Sin Sod not it mean every family want to take from dauther.if you from good family (in bangkok or somepart of Thailand rich family) Mom and Dad don t want take the money .They give the money for dauther and son in law for built new family.Normally Thai Lady from ISSAN have the Sin Sod.Mom and Dad teach when we youger you must take care us "when you go every where Eventhow you fall in the water you didn t deep and when you fall in the fire you didn t burnt" and some family in ISSAN want dauther married with Frarang because They have a new house,beatiful house,why Mon and Dad want to take the Sin Sod.Some family want to show O'my dauther married with Frarand very rich because Dauther sent the money to buit the new house.Now some villgge in ISSAN same like bangkok have beatiful house and big house. Every family want dauther married with Frarang.Now in ISSAN have the company match maker.Some family pay the money alot for this company .Because normaly Thai people can t speak English but the angency can chat email with Frarand until he want to meet Thai lady and want to get married.Why Frarang looking Thai lady just only Pattaya, Kao Samui,Pucket,Nana,If Frarang just want to have fun it Ok but if you want to find "good wife or partner your life"you must to take time with Thai lady"I like culture frarang have boyfriend and grilfriend for longtime some one 5years befor get married.try to learn together longtime.but you just find Thai lady just 3week why you know she good or not good,you same like buy the Lotto.Enyway normaly The Thai Lady very good for take care and very honest because we close family mom and dad good teach.They teach How you cook and clean and take care kid take care husband.They belive husband is the leader.The wife must to do everythig to him.Why Frarand like Thai Lady......

how much did the paragraph bypass cost?

[blizzard]

ITA ALWAYS ABOUT THE MUNNEY WHEN IT CUMS TO DIRT POOR folks. what other reason is there for them to marry frang?

[scotsman]

I knew a Thai family who's son wanted to marry but the sinsot was to high for him & no amount of talking could bring it down. The end result was he tried to kill him self with weed killer & is still not 100%. I know that this is a Thai custom but its from the dark ages and many poor love sick Thai men or women who can't pay this Sinsot Die with a broken heart. I know a farang friend of mine who was asked for 1 mill baht from a not so well off family and it was not going to be returned so He talked it over with his girlfriend"s family as she had been married before with a Thai man & had a daughter & son and he got no where. They both ran away & lived in bangkok & he looked after the daughter & son. After a year the family backed down & to show face he paid for a wedding up north & the sinsot was a rubber check for 500,000 baht. If Sinsot was a true Thai custom Then why do some Thai man who marry a farang women don't pay as they say its not a farang custom? Now it is up to the individual farang what he thinks of sinsot but for me I gave my wife 1baht gold & her mother & Father 30k baht because I wanted to make my wife happy & her family never asked me for this money or Sinsot I just gave it to them for being so kind to me. If I was asked for a sinsot of crazy amounts like the people i know I would have turned it down right away. I believe if my girlfriend/ wife love's me then this should not interfere with our relationship & if it did then I know where I stand & I would with a heavy heart walk away.

Regards

Scotsman

[sbk]

Sorry to post and run, but I've been busy

OK, back to my original post. My statement is not just based on my 19 years of experience attending countless family weddings (and I do mean countless, my husband has a huge extended family) but also on the experiences of my husband and our local staff. In normal families, the money is not kept by the parents. All 4 of them felt that parents who demanded half the sin sot were fairly greedy.

I would also like to add that 400,000 baht seems quite high to me (and to my husband as well) for an asset-less girl. My husband's nephew paid a bit less than that (and received it all back) when he married a local girl whose family owns a fair amount of land and has their own restaurant on the popular beach on the island.

I did not receive sin sot as I did not have a wedding. If I had agreed to the wedding I would have received sin sot. But, as I wasn't really capable of dealing with over 1000 people all coming to have a look at me and spoke minimal Thai at the time, I forgo the wedding. Normal procedure; no wedding, no sin sot. I did, however, receive gold jewelry from my father-in-law despite the fact that we had no wedding. (and yes, it was discussed with his parents at the time and they were more than willing to pay).

As to the OP's predicament. Marriage is a series of compromises, of give and take. We all make some sort of compromises to live with another person and the fact that she is not willing to discuss this in a reasonable manner and consider YOUR culture as well but rather immediately takes a "my way or the highway" attitude does not bode well for future problems that will need to be solved.

I suggest you talk to her about this, tell her that in your culture you do not pay the parents for their daughter, and that as far as you have figured out from your researches, it is not mandatory for the parents to keep the money. Tell her that you love her and given that you would prefer to work out some sort of compromise. If she is unwilling to look at things from your point of view as well, given your explanations to her, then I would suggest that will be the future of your relationship with her.

[dee123]

....can you just tell me why you should pay sinsod........???

This is the culture in Thailand .we belive longtime ago about mom and dad improtant.if you good take care mom and dad good the furture you will lucky.you give the money for them 200k the furture money return you back more than that.Sin Sod not it mean every family want to take from dauther.if you from good family (in bangkok or somepart of Thailand rich family) Mom and Dad don t want take the money .They give the money for dauther and son in law for built new family.Normally Thai Lady from ISSAN have the Sin Sod.Mom and Dad teach when we youger you must take care us "when you go every where Eventhow you fall in the water you didn t deep and when you fall in the fire you didn t burnt" and some family in ISSAN want dauther married with Frarang because They have a new house,beatiful house,why Mon and Dad want to take the Sin Sod.Some family want to show O'my dauther married with Frarand very rich because Dauther sent the money to buit the new house.Now some villgge in ISSAN same like bangkok have beatiful house and big house. Every family want dauther married with Frarang.Now in ISSAN have the company match maker.Some family pay the money alot for this company .Because normaly Thai people can t speak English but the angency can chat email with Frarand until he want to meet Thai lady and want to get married.Why Frarang looking Thai lady just only Pattaya, Kao Samui,Pucket,Nana,If Frarang just want to have fun it Ok but if you want to find "good wife or partner your life"you must to take time with Thai lady"I like culture frarang have boyfriend and grilfriend for longtime some one 5years befor get married.try to learn together longtime.but you just find Thai lady just 3week why you know she good or not good,you same like buy the Lotto.Enyway normaly The Thai Lady very good for take care and very honest because we close family mom and dad good teach.They teach How you cook and clean and take care kid take care husband.They belive husband is the leader.The wife must to do everythig to him.Why Frarand like Thai Lady......

We have a much simpler and less confrontational tradition;........we carry stones on our back

[CeeGee]

Ok, I do not contribute much to this forum, usually asking questions rather than making comments but this one makes me put pen to paper.

Maybe I missed it but nowhere in this thread have I seen the word “love” mentioned. All cultures are different. In most European cultures, most girls dream from a very early age(usually encouraged by their mothers) of the big white wedding, everybody dressed to the nines(mum spends six weeks shopping for a new hat), horse drawn carriage, reception at a five star location, followed by a honeymoon at some exotic location again all five star. The average mans wants to give all this but really does not understand what all the fuss is about.

As they get older the dream gets modified. They meet someone they “love” and the ugly word money rears its head. At that point love and money clash. Real life begins.

They end up getting married in the registry office followed by a small meal at the local pub with a few friends, no honeymoon because they both have to go back to work to pay the mortgage on the shoebox they have bought to live in.

Why, because they love each other!!!!

By all means pay sinsot, pay for the wedding party, pay for everything, and look after the family, if you can, but the basic question for both sides should be one of love and not how much money. Family pressure in any culture can be terrible but at the end of the day you must decide what is more important, your love for each other or keeping up appearances on the money side.

Maybe you will upset the family but you are the most important people in the equation.

Ok that’s my bit, flame away!!!

[dee123]

.......no need to flame.......LOVE RULES EVERYTHING!

[brock01]

Hi all, I would like to get some opinions about this situation I'm in. I've read the other posts about this but didn't see a similar case.

I've been dating a Thai girl for the past 1 year, a late 20's (I'm mid 30's), university graduate with a decent office job. Originally from Phuket but living with her parents and sister now in Bangkok. We've started talking over the last couple of weeks about possible wedding and the issue of sinsod came up. After a few discussions and her talking to her parents to "feel the ground" it turns out they want to put on display 400K and return back to me 200K. The family isn't rich, normal working class and both retired. She's never been married / no kids. I myself am not rich either, I've got a small business that's making a decent living but not large amounts of extra cash.

I did a bit of research online about this before they came up with the figures and they kindda surprised me, I was expecting maybe half of that. So I told her I'm not able or prepared to pay this amount at the moment and it sounds too high to me. She took it quite badly, saying things like she already negotiated down with them as they wanted more, that I don't respect the culture, that her parents deserve these amounts for taking care of her, that I just wanted to take advantage, that normal Thai guys are able to pay these amounts so how come I won't and other stuff like that. At the end I said I'll need to think about it and I can't reply either way on the spot but she already got into her mind that I don't and won't pay anything (I admit I do find this custom very difficult to stomach but I told her I will pay some amount but not this amount). It had a bad effect on her as she was genuinely crying her eyes out. She then packed her stuff from my apartment and left saying she won't be able to stay over and I can have my time to think about it. It looks like it may be a deal breaker.

Besides this incident the relationship has gone extremely well, we spend a lot of time together and seem compatible in every other sense. I've met her parents several times and other family members and have always gotten along great despite language barrier. I'm worried I might be making a mistake both handling the situation and in my attitude towards it.

Would really appreciate some advice on this.

When i married my thai wife my wife argued with her mother that she did not care about the money that she just wanted to be with me. I gave her mother 35000 baht plus 1 baht gold 7yrs ago of which i took back 15000 baht back. i was honest with her family and told them i do not have big money. If they are a good family they only want whats best for their daughter. however she did have a 5yr old son who i took back to the uk with us.

On another note I bought some land 1 gnann for my stepson for when he is older however my wifes mother sold it so as she could pay for her sons sinsod. she gave this money to her sons wifes family. 2 yerars later his wife left him for another thai man. Money gone, wife gone. It pays to have a daughter in Thailand.

The money does not stop there. The family will always request more money for something else further down the line.

[dee123]

......with 25 years exp of working and living in Thailand and a marriage lasting 15 years it comes as no surprise to me that you did not actually receive any sinsod sbk in fact I'd be quite shocked!......so much so that I would have to do an hour of creeling!

Edited February 23, 2008 by dee123

[mrbojangles]

......with 25 years exp of working and living in Thailand and a marriage lasting 15 years it comes as no surprise to me that you did not actually receive any sinsod sbk

What are you talking about dee?

Sbk said she didn't get married. That's why she didn't get the sin sod.

[sbk]

......with 25 years exp of working and living in Thailand and a marriage lasting 15 years it comes as no surprise to me that you did not actually receive any sinsod sbk

Sorry, I fail to understand your point here. I did not have a wedding. It is pretty clear to me, at least, that if there is no wedding there is no sin sot. The decision to not have the wedding was mine alone. Sin sot was offered if there were a wedding.

So, I guess I fail to grasp what misguided assumptions you are making about my life, my husband and his family.

***edit*** thanks MrBoj, glad to see you find his post lacking in clarity as well. But I do have to add, I am legally married, I just did not want the giant wedding as is the norm where I live. 850 people is a small wedding, I might add, still beyond what I was capable of dealing with at the time ***

[dee123]

husband? Edited February 23, 2008 by dee123

[dee123]

.....your making it up as go along

[blizzard]

please keep to tpoic guys!

[dee123]

....sorry chaps for going off course but there appears to be new interpretations of sinsod happening as we speak...