People's Alliance For Democracy To Renew Movement

[thaigene2]

I made a little journey over to the protest site today via canal boat and foot to get a little exercice, kill some boredom and see firsthand what the hel_l is going on down there to get a little perspective on things. My first impression: Good grief are there a crapload of government resources insuring this group's "RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH".!

Sure, everybody should have the right to free speech, but should you be able to camp out in the middle of a major road inconveniencing thousands upon thousands of commuters with no proposed timeline to wrap it up? Should you get a donation of taxpayer-funded labor to protect your ass as you block up the street for an indefinite period of time?

If I'm the PM, I give these people the option to move to one of several prominent public venues NOT in the middle of a public road, and I break up this gathering in the middle of the street ASAP. As I move in with the police to clear it out, my most important items are hundreds of video cameras. If they want to fight back as we remove them, have it all on tape so the people can see why force (if needed) was necessary and obviously I send at least 3 times as many officers in as there are protesters.

Any problem with this plan?

Also, I don't claim to be an expert on the situation but I see one side that wins popular elections and another side that uses coups and bullcrap les majiste charges. Gee, ya know, I'll lean toward the side that wins elections.

I'm with you Clint. Where's the mayor reading the riot act? Fact is the people defending these guys here in this thread would never be foaming away like they're doing now if this was the Caravan of the Poor of another group camping in the middle of the road like that. It's just cause they hate Thaksin/TRT/PPP that they're frothing away..

We all know what would happen if a demo took over the street like that and WASN'T well-connected to the power structures of Thailand now don't we?

Moderators? I'd like to request FreedomDude's post BE PINNED! (one can only hope against the odds..)

Edited June 1, 2008 by thaigene2

[hammered]

I made a little journey over to the protest site today via canal boat and foot to get a little exercice, kill some boredom and see firsthand what the hel_l is going on down there to get a little perspective on things. My first impression: Good grief are there a crapload of government resources insuring this group's "RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH".!

Sure, everybody should have the right to free speech, but should you be able to camp out in the middle of a major road inconveniencing thousands upon thousands of commuters with no proposed timeline to wrap it up? Should you get a donation of taxpayer-funded labor to protect your ass as you block up the street for an indefinite period of time?

If I'm the PM, I give these people the option to move to one of several prominent public venues NOT in the middle of a public road, and I break up this gathering in the middle of the street ASAP. As I move in with the police to clear it out, my most important items are hundreds of video cameras. If they want to fight back as we remove them, have it all on tape so the people can see why force (if needed) was necessary and obviously I send at least 3 times as many officers in as there are protesters.

Any problem with this plan?

Also, I don't claim to be an expert on the situation but I see one side that wins popular elections and another side that uses coups and bullcrap les majiste charges. Gee, ya know, I'll lean toward the side that wins elections.

I'm with you Clint. Where's the mayor reading the riot act? Fact is the people defending these guys here in this thread would never be foaming away like they're doing now if this was the Caravan of the Poor of another group camping in the middle of the road like that. It's just cause they hate Thaksin/TRT/PPP that they're frothing away..

We all know what would happen if a demo took over the street like that and WASN'T well-connected to the power structures of Thailand now don't we?

Dunno about others but I always said the Daad and others had the right to protrest as the PAD do. I thought the Prem riot went a bit to far but there are different opinions on that

Anyway if you cant defend the right of all to demonstrate it is a sad day especially if claiming to beleive in democracy.

[Pierrot]

One shouldnt mention Saudi Arabia or the electoral system in Lebanon that ensures the Hariri government stays in power. Please dont mention Volusia county or notions of one man one vote Mmmm it is rather sad that when the US talks of democracy these day it just rings of hypocricy. What the US wants is client states of any politcal persuasion that tow the line on wars on democracy, wars on drugs and allows US troops to rape their way unfetterd around the country under state of forces agreements or to have civilian mercenary armies inside their country who answer to no local law and who of course make all of their resources available to US based multinationals at discount rates for a bunch of backhanders that can be spent on vast amounts of military and torture equipment to use to repress their people when they demonstrate against their sometimes elected and sometimes not government from giving away national resources to no benefit for the country. I digres but lets expose hipocrisy where we can.

You want to talk about real politik? So what about that :

"The United States lifted restrictions on aid to Thailand in February after a new elected government took power.

Washington had suspended about $35 million in assistance to Thailand, including funds designed to promote military professionalism, after the bloodless 2006 coup."

Knowing what Mr Gate just said, what are the chances that the army will move again to help the PAD?

Game over, time to go back home !

[h90]

One shouldnt mention Saudi Arabia or the electoral system in Lebanon that ensures the Hariri government stays in power. Please dont mention Volusia county or notions of one man one vote Mmmm it is rather sad that when the US talks of democracy these day it just rings of hypocricy. What the US wants is client states of any politcal persuasion that tow the line on wars on democracy, wars on drugs and allows US troops to rape their way unfetterd around the country under state of forces agreements or to have civilian mercenary armies inside their country who answer to no local law and who of course make all of their resources available to US based multinationals at discount rates for a bunch of backhanders that can be spent on vast amounts of military and torture equipment to use to repress their people when they demonstrate against their sometimes elected and sometimes not government from giving away national resources to no benefit for the country. I digres but lets expose hipocrisy where we can.

You want to talk about real politik? So what about that :

"The United States lifted restrictions on aid to Thailand in February after a new elected government took power.

Washington had suspended about $35 million in assistance to Thailand, including funds designed to promote military professionalism, after the bloodless 2006 coup."

Knowing what Mr Gate just said, what are the chances that the army will move again to help the PAD?

Game over, time to go back home !

don't understand your posting. What do you mean?

[Pierrot]

don't understand your posting. What do you mean?

Fairly simple, the party is over, it's now time to go back home.

[nickynomates]

Problem will soon be over.

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates flew into Thailand on Sunday with a clear message that Washington would take a dim view of any attempt by military leaders to seize power.

"Our position is pretty consistent. We want to see democratically elected governments and we will convey that," Gates told reporters in Singapore before heading for Bangkok.

Gates is scheduled to meet with the democratically elected Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej to renew acquaintances and to discuss issues here in the region.

I for one will sleep much better tonight.

[h90]

don't understand your posting. What do you mean?

Fairly simple, the party is over, it's now time to go back home.

For 35 millions, thats not much money, not even in thailand. I don't think that both a "good meant" nor a "greedy" coup would mind 35 millions.

35 million US might be 1.12 billion Baht. Thaksins frozen money is 75 or 77 billion (can't remember).

[Pierrot]

don't understand your posting. What do you mean?

Fairly simple, the party is over, it's now time to go back home.

For 35 millions, thats not much money, not even in thailand. I don't think that both a "good meant" nor a "greedy" coup would mind 35 millions.

35 million US might be 1.12 billion Baht. Thaksins frozen money is 75 or 77 billion (can't remember).

Not everybody play in the same league ...

Edited June 1, 2008 by Pierrot

[h90]

don't understand your posting. What do you mean?

Fairly simple, the party is over, it's now time to go back home.

For 35 millions, thats not much money, not even in thailand. I don't think that both a "good meant" nor a "greedy" coup would mind 35 millions.

35 million US might be 1.12 billion Baht. Thaksins frozen money is 75 or 77 billion (can't remember).

Not everybody play in the same league ...

Lets say greedy army makes a money. They can take Thaksins money and a lot more from the country. 35 million is nothing.

Good army won't care 35 million as they do it for the country (if true or only in their mind does not make a difference).

As well from the 35 millions they can't put more than 10-20 % in their own pocket.

[thaigene2]

One shouldnt mention Saudi Arabia or the electoral system in Lebanon that ensures the Hariri government stays in power. Please dont mention Volusia county or notions of one man one vote Mmmm it is rather sad that when the US talks of democracy these day it just rings of hypocricy. What the US wants is client states of any politcal persuasion that tow the line on wars on democracy, wars on drugs and allows US troops to rape their way unfetterd around the country under state of forces agreements or to have civilian mercenary armies inside their country who answer to no local law and who of course make all of their resources available to US based multinationals at discount rates for a bunch of backhanders that can be spent on vast amounts of military and torture equipment to use to repress their people when they demonstrate against their sometimes elected and sometimes not government from giving away national resources to no benefit for the country. I digres but lets expose hipocrisy where we can.

You want to talk about real politik? So what about that :

"The United States lifted restrictions on aid to Thailand in February after a new elected government took power.

Washington had suspended about $35 million in assistance to Thailand, including funds designed to promote military professionalism, after the bloodless 2006 coup."

Knowing what Mr Gate just said, what are the chances that the army will move again to help the PAD?

Game over, time to go back home !

I don't give a sh+t about what the United States has to say. Fair enough, they're on side with this one (wait though, are they really?), they have taken the opposite sides in many other shameful acts against popularism (populism almost seems to be their 'enemy' in many cases - Venezuela, Chile, Nicaragua), anyway forget the duplicitous USA, in any event, it's time the 90% of Thai people just stood up for themslelves and said to old-familiy-rich people and their PAD proxies and their guanxi corrupt patronage -- AUK BAI! (Get out!)

[thaigene2]

The funny thing about my own postings and all of the others' here (from whatever side) is that these postulations mean absolutely nothing - there is no impact. Maybe some foreign (farang) news reporters read this stuff - maybe it influences them a bit - but so what. There's no impact on Thailand at all. Nice to vent one's splean though - so thanks to TV for providing this space!

[Pierrot]

Good army won't care 35 million as they do it for the country

Are you real ??

[thaigene2]

Good army won't care 35 million as they do it for the country

Are you real ??

I was wondering the same thing..from another reply I couldn't understand (and not because of the fact he's a non-English-language native - I just couldn't understand his point).

[Pierrot]

The funny thing about my own postings and all of the others' here (from whatever side) is that these postulations mean absolutely nothing - there is no impact. Maybe some foreign (farang) news reporters read this stuff - maybe it influences them a bit - but so what. There's no impact on Thailand at all. Nice to vent one's splean though - so thanks to TV for providing this space!

You're right ... to a point

Actually the plan of the PAD is to play victim for the foreign medias / ONG. Basically, they don't have much local support, so they hope by being the next "Tiananmen victims", they will gather support from the international community. Unfortunately (fortunately !) it doesn't work. Mr Martin Lee tried that before in Hong Kong to be be eventually, but rightly, branded a traitor !

[h90]

One shouldnt mention Saudi Arabia or the electoral system in Lebanon that ensures the Hariri government stays in power. Please dont mention Volusia county or notions of one man one vote Mmmm it is rather sad that when the US talks of democracy these day it just rings of hypocricy. What the US wants is client states of any politcal persuasion that tow the line on wars on democracy, wars on drugs and allows US troops to rape their way unfetterd around the country under state of forces agreements or to have civilian mercenary armies inside their country who answer to no local law and who of course make all of their resources available to US based multinationals at discount rates for a bunch of backhanders that can be spent on vast amounts of military and torture equipment to use to repress their people when they demonstrate against their sometimes elected and sometimes not government from giving away national resources to no benefit for the country. I digres but lets expose hipocrisy where we can.

You want to talk about real politik? So what about that :

"The United States lifted restrictions on aid to Thailand in February after a new elected government took power.

Washington had suspended about $35 million in assistance to Thailand, including funds designed to promote military professionalism, after the bloodless 2006 coup."

Knowing what Mr Gate just said, what are the chances that the army will move again to help the PAD?

Game over, time to go back home !

I don't give a sh+t about what the United States has to say. Fair enough, they're on side with this one (wait though, are they really?), they have taken the opposite sides in many other shameful acts against popularism (populism almost seems to be their 'enemy' in many cases - Venezuela, Chile, Nicaragua), anyway forget the duplicitous USA, in any event, it's time the 90% of Thai people just stood up for themslelves and said to old-familiy-rich people and their PAD proxies and their guanxi corrupt patronage -- AUK BAI! (Get out!)

Agree! No matter on which side: It is not US business. What would the US tell if Thailand comment on their internal things and cut or offer money??

Look at Saudi Arabia, a terrible dictatorship, choping of hands, stoning people for having sex=good guys

Iran, same region, democratic, even not perfect, a lot more liberal in everything=complete evil

If Thai Army tells Gates after the coup the give 20.000 soldier for Iraq USA supports a coup, don't care democracy

[thaigene2]

Dear PAD Lovers:

QUOTE FROM REUTERS:

"We will stay here until the government resigns," Somsak Kosaisuk, one of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) leaders, told Reuters by telephone from the rally at the Makawan Rangsan bridge near the Grand Palace in the heart of Bangkok.

OKAY>>

Great - well then I and my colleagues are going to retaliate by going and blocking all the "public" entrances to Paragon Shopping Center until the PAD leave Rajadmanern Nok avenue. If anyone tries to make us leave - We will insist upon our rights to protest and not be moved from public areas. They have to move the PAD first, okay? No difference right? Then we'll go to Emporium and then Central okay? Get the picture ???

So can we do this - and if so - would you defend our right to f+ck up everyone elese's enjoyment/access to a public place? Remember, we're occupying the public entrances - not the private property of these facilities. What goes around comes around mes amis.

Edited June 1, 2008 by thaigene2

[Pierrot]

If Thai Army tells Gates after the coup the give 20.000 soldier for Iraq USA supports a coup, don't care democracy

It's getting late, why don't call it a day ?

[h90]

If Thai Army tells Gates after the coup the give 20.000 soldier for Iraq USA supports a coup, don't care democracy

It's getting late, why don't call it a day ?

better stay on topic

[thaigene2]

If Thai Army tells Gates after the coup the give 20.000 soldier for Iraq USA supports a coup, don't care democracy

It's getting late, why don't call it a day ?

better stay on topic

So we'll see you at Paragon tomorrow then?

[Samuian]

So we'll see you at Paragon tomorrow then?

Breakkie, Brunch, Dinner, going shopping or simply wasting away some time, as most of the visitors to this consumers temple do?

Concerning the PAD Movement: They hav succeeded in at least 2 major points!

The rally will go on....

[h90]

If Thai Army tells Gates after the coup the give 20.000 soldier for Iraq USA supports a coup, don't care democracy

It's getting late, why don't call it a day ?

better stay on topic

So we'll see you at Paragon tomorrow then?

Group against Dictatorship did that already 5-10 people.

But Thaksin won't be pleased, Paragon has some relation with Thaksin.....

But I must admit, when PAD is allowed you must be allowed to do it at the Paragon or ASTV office as well as long as it is on the street, peacefull and you let people pass.

If you tell instead of Paragon the main street to the Airport. I can't find any argument anymore.....If PAD is allowed you are allowed, if you do it, it is a disaster so it can't be done........

I'll think about that overnight....you really got me with this argument.

[ando]

If one million Thais staged a protest sit in against PAD in the villages and towns across Issarn (which could surely be organized without too much trouble), would it attract as much media attention and domestic/international concern as a few thousand PAD protesters in Bangkok? NO, almost certainly not.

PAD protesters represent an almost imperceptibly small proportion of even 1% of the countries voters and yet because of their positioning in the capital Bangkok they attract massive media attention and indeed have the ability to incite military coups in order to topple a democratically elected government.

Is this what Thai democracy is about? 10,000 PAD protesters represents less than 0.03% of the countries voters. What about the other 99.97% of Thai voters?

Sure, not everyone in Thailand supports the PPP. But they had that chance to express that opinion at the ballot box. And sure, there was vote buying just as there was manipulation of the media by the Juanta in the last election. Dirty tricks on both sides. But time and time again in recent years the peoples choice has been the TRT or PPP. Nobody can deny that even in a perfect world with a Thailand free of corruption, the results would have been much different.

Basically, what the current situation boils down to is that a VERY SMALL minority of people are attempting to over rule the democratic rights of the majority in Thailand. And they may very well succeed. This is not a good way for democracy to develop, even in a developing country.

[Nampeung]

All of you using this forum ... you are being censored right now... TVisa ought to tell you the truth... if they don't... they are pandering to the un democratic government in power in Thailand right now. Thai Visa is covering it's own commercial ass ... take a stance people...

[Nampeung]

Ando you really don't seem to have grasped the point

[jumnien]

I made a little journey over to the protest site today via canal boat and foot to get a little exercice, kill some boredom and see firsthand what the hel_l is going on down there to get a little perspective on things. My first impression: Good grief are there a crapload of government resources insuring this group's "RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH".!

Sure, everybody should have the right to free speech, but should you be able to camp out in the middle of a major road inconveniencing thousands upon thousands of commuters with no proposed timeline to wrap it up? Should you get a donation of taxpayer-funded labor to protect your ass as you block up the street for an indefinite period of time?

If I'm the PM, I give these people the option to move to one of several prominent public venues NOT in the middle of a public road, and I break up this gathering in the middle of the street ASAP. As I move in with the police to clear it out, my most important items are hundreds of video cameras. If they want to fight back as we remove them, have it all on tape so the people can see why force (if needed) was necessary and obviously I send at least 3 times as many officers in as there are protesters.

Any problem with this plan?

Also, I don't claim to be an expert on the situation but I see one side that wins popular elections and another side that uses coups and bullcrap les majiste charges. Gee, ya know, I'll lean toward the side that wins elections.

Brilliant on-site analysis!

[ando]

Ando you really don't seem to have grasped the point

I was putting my own point.

If you don't like it, that's your choice.

There are more than one points of view on this matter.

[clausewitz]

If one million Thais staged a protest sit in against PAD in the villages and towns across Issarn (which could surely be organized without too much trouble), would it attract as much media attention and domestic/international concern as a few thousand PAD protesters in Bangkok? NO, almost certainly not.

PAD protesters represent an almost imperceptibly small proportion of even 1% of the countries voters and yet because of their positioning in the capital Bangkok they attract massive media attention and indeed have the ability to incite military coups in order to topple a democratically elected government.

Is this what Thai democracy is about? 10,000 PAD protesters represents less than 0.03% of the countries voters. What about the other 99.97% of Thai voters?

Sure, not everyone in Thailand supports the PPP. But they had that chance to express that opinion at the ballot box. And sure, there was vote buying just as there was manipulation of the media by the Juanta in the last election. Dirty tricks on both sides. But time and time again in recent years the peoples choice has been the TRT or PPP. Nobody can deny that even in a perfect world with a Thailand free of corruption, the results would have been much different.

Basically, what the current situation boils down to is that a VERY SMALL minority of people are attempting to over rule the democratic rights of the majority in Thailand. And they may very well succeed. This is not a good way for democracy to develop, even in a developing country.

Ando

According to reports PAD had over 500 people at the protest during the early morning on Saturday. YES OVER 500. We are talking about a HUGE gathering of the people. How can anyone think to ignore this. And that is not counting the 100s of journalists and staff and the 100s of police etc.

It is BIG. And some days they have over 6000. Imagine that.

Thailand has only 61 million people, so 6000, I would assume, is more than the number of voters who voted for the evil PPP. Not that their vote counts, because they are ignorant peasants anyway. Not saintly and intelligent like the PAD protestors.

[ando]

Ando

According to reports PAD had over 500 people at the protest during the early morning on Saturday. YES OVER 500. We are talking about a HUGE gathering of the people. How can anyone think to ignore this. And that is not counting the 100s of journalists and staff and the 100s of police etc.

It is BIG. And some days they have over 6000. Imagine that.

Thailand has only 61 million people, so 6000, I would assume, is more than the number of voters who voted for the evil PPP. Not that their vote counts, because they are ignorant peasants anyway. Not saintly and intelligent like the PAD protestors.

I was being generous with the numbers because different media organizations were reporting varying numbers between 3,000 and 10,000 at its peak on Saturday night. I too have read that the actual number of hard core campers is only a matter in the hundreds.

[Los78]

[ I see one side that wins popular elections and another side that uses coups and bullcrap les majiste charges. Gee, ya know, I'll lean toward the side that wins elections. ]

I fully agree with you. PAD is just continuing to divide the country and trying to cause another coup. I wonder if these PAD people hold down any serious jobs. I support democracy and free speech but these bored and bitter PAD protesters should move on and stop causing a divide.

[hammered]

Both the Post and Nation have imho some interesting analysis today. I'll just post links as they are worth a read in full again imho:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=127944 (Lurking Violence)

and

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/02...es_30074554.php (Samak's Job on the line)

and

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/02...cs_30074551.php (Thaksin tells hot heads to calm down)

Maybe just maybe everyone is going to take a step back. The question is what happens to Samak if he has lost the support of not only coalition allies but also some of the PPP and how will he react?