How Intellectually Stimulated Do You Feel

[Jingjok]

The Thai language is basic. I'm not fluent in Thai, but know enough to peruse a dictionary (Mary Haas) so can see the vocabulary is limited...

I am convinced this is often not because the people are basically stupid, but because of the linguistic limitation. There just isn't the vocabulary and linguistic structure to explain things properly.

I fully accept I could be completely wrong. Maybe it's not the language per se which is lacking, but the teaching and widespread use of it. I based my judgement on hearing (and understanding) many extremely laboured telephone conversations, where the parties were struggling to find words to use.

Let's do an experiment. Please translate the ten words below...

It's a relief that you do accept you could be wrong, otherwise you could be accused of being quite the ignoramus. Since you admit to not being fluent in Thai but then claim expert knowledge in the limitedness of the language you are not proficient in because you've listened to some phone conversations is slightly arrogant from my point of view.

The Thai equivalent (without being poetic) to your list:

Beautiful - สวย

Elegant - มารยาทดี

Exquisite - งดงาม

Gorgeous - หรูหรา

Pretty - เก๋

Ravishing - ปลื้ม

Resplendent - เปล่งปลั่ง

Splendid - โอ่โถง

Stunning - น่าตลึง

Sublime - งามเลิศ

You will note that only the first word involves สวย because that is literally 'beautiful'. You could do a similar list in Thai language and ask for the English translation for such things as emotions. There is no exact translation for a lot of Thai words as English perhaps uses only basic words such as happy or sad (bad example off the top of my head ) whereas Thai may have a dozen or more words. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong , because my Thai is limited

That's not to say that I don't agree with you regarding many Thais not having an interest in furthering their knowledge by reading, etc and the state of the education system in this country is obviously appalling and doesn't encourage kids to think creatively or independently which has obvious ramifications on the entire country.

OK. Thanks. I find your aggressive response instructive: I did say criticism of the language might be offensive to Thai speakers. You can be as rude about me, my language and my country as you like; I won't care and won't rise to the bait.

I'll consult my Mary Haas to look up your words then respond. As I said, I could be wrong, and often are: that's called learning. I did describe my thoughts as a hypothesis.

If constructing a hypothesis based on available evidence in order to try to understand some aspect of the world is arrogant, even slightly so, then thank God for arrogance: without it we would still be in caves.

So please tell me what your explanation is of why, if it is not linguistic limitation as I (?wrongly) supposed, is it often very difficult to explain things between Thais.

Perhaps you don’t think it is. Then I challenge you to spend a few days on my building site without being frustrated!

I don’t want to criticise Thailand, I just want to understand. Without understanding, solutions can not be found.

-- edit -- Changed 'facts' to 'evidence' . Does not make sense otherwise.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Jingjok

[t.s]

How about a translation of the following (into simple English language terms).

extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated.

Or perhaps the term 'bigotry'? - It does after all seem to be to be just that when someone on the one hand admits to having little or no Thai language skills while on the other denigrates the whole of Thai language on the basis of his limited understanding.

-----

There are many reasons why some foreigners who have moved to live in Thailand find they lack intellectual stimulation; their own intellectual curiosity (or lack thereof) is perhaps the main reason for this, closely followed by the company they keep and the way in which they choose to use their free time.

People are either dull and uninterested in learning or they are not.

No need to blame the whole of Thai society for the failings of a few foreigners, even if you yourself are among them.

did somebody confiscate your still?

[Jingjok]

... then there is cnn speak where a noun like impact becomes a verb ...

Any noun can be verbed

[mrt273nva]

i have met many intellectual thais that go into depth on philosophy, religion, and politics. but all the thais that i have met with this intellectual capacity are all part of the same circle of friends. they are a refreshing group of people to spend time with and gives me hope for the future generations of thais.

Edited March 3, 2008 by mrt273nva

[Neeranam]

Strange - not one poster from Pattaya has answered the question

[djinn]

Strange - not one poster from Pattaya has answered the question

I hope you don't count Na Jomtien as part of Pattaya

[Neeranam]

Elegant - มารยาทดี

Are you sure?

I can think of a few words for elegant but not that.

I'd say suay ngam(สวยงาม )

maybe mee sen(มีเสน่ห์) but could be 'debonair'.

or สง่าผ่าเผย but could be 'stately'.

or ซึ่งสุภาพเรียบร้อย - 'refined'

or เก๋ไก๋ gay guy - 'posh'

ยอดเยี่ยม yot yiam

สุภาพเรียบร้อย supap riap roi

[Neeranam]

Strange - not one poster from Pattaya has answered the question

I hope you don't count Na Jomtien as part of Pattaya

Never heard of it - is that where the intellectuals hang out?

[seonai]

Can we get back on topic folks

[deckx]

Strange - not one poster from Pattaya has answered the question

and you wonder why !!!

or would I prefer to listen to someone bore me to death talking about philosophy/politics/ religon i think not !!!

[mrt273nva]

or would I prefer to listen to someone bore me to death talking about philosophy/politics/ religon i think not !!!

that's the real attitude of an intellect right?

[Maigo6]

Can we get back on topic folks

I doubt that. !

[deckx]

i have met many intellectual thais that go into depth on philosophy, religion, and politics. but all the thais that i have met with this intellectual capacity are all part of the same circle of friends. they are a refreshing group of people to spend time with and gives me hope for the future generations of thais.

I think its funny that some people classify the intellect of people by the subjects they talk about....

[Maigo6]

I think it's amazing how so many Farangs are so freekin' great online..............................

It's like..... Oh, I met my wife in University,she just happened to be turned on by a huge fat gutted grey haired old man, she is 30 years younger than me and is independently wealthy. When we got married the deputy prime minister was one of the guests and her Father gave us 1000 Rai of land in Bangkok as a wedding present.

Ok I'm going over the top, but I do remember one poster who said he had a Girlfriend who broke an engagement with the deputy prime minister of Thailand so she could have lunch with him.

In fact he was an English Teacher, his social circle was the rich and famous, the powerful and the elite......So he said on an internet forum.

In reality I think he ran out of money and eventually had to leave Thailand.

Anybody can be an intellectual, just google copy and paste.

I find it quite disturbing that people take internet forums so serious, a simple google search can make a genius out of anybody, in real life.................things are different.

[seonai]

I don't know where this is going anymore but it's not about who's intellectual or not it's about you and how you feel brain wise while you are here. As a general I felt more artistically stimulated by colours and smells and sights in Thailand but less intellectually stimulated.

I just wondered how others felt...

[Maigo6]

I don't know where this is going anymore....

Seonai, in reality, I doubt many farangs go to Thailand for intellectual stimulation..................yeah, I know the posters here will say they did, but in reality, I don't think so.

I did, cos I'm different.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Maigo6

[xsplat]

did somebody confiscate your still?

That's funny. Reminds me of a line in a movie I saw today. "You've got great posture. Me, I slouch" Great way to call someone tight and stiff and overly formal and way way too worried about being polite.

Do thought police actually help anybody? That's not a rhetorical question, and I don't claim to have the answer to it. But I'll trust my thought processes over those of the thought crime detection unit.

And a "bigoted" opinion would be a thought crime. Don't think about cultural differences, and don't discuss them, if it paints one group in a bad light.

Edited March 3, 2008 by xsplat

[jaideeguy]

With the wife, no intelectual stimulation.....never expected any as I've been an expat in asia for the last 16yrs and have learned that good conversation is hard to find.

But thank Buddah for the internet, as I can now have access to the world interactivly, re-united with old friends [via skype and email], and too much news and information...not to mention the entertainment that i download daily....political satire shows just hours after airing in the states, movies just released, tv sit-coms etc etc.

It's even harder to get bored nowadays....but I will confess that the [real life] 'good friend pool' is somewhat limited here and i really do have a hard time finding friends that are on my wave length.

And, I've come to enjoy solitude more and more.....

[xsplat]

With the wife, no intelectual stimulation.....never expected any as I've been an expat in asia for the last 16yrs and have learned that good conversation is hard to find.

But thank Buddah for the internet, as I can now have access to the world interactivly, re-united with old friends [via skype and email], and too much news and information...not to mention the entertainment that i download daily....political satire shows just hours after airing in the states, movies just released, tv sit-coms etc etc.

It's even harder to get bored nowadays....but I will confess that the [real life] 'good friend pool' is somewhat limited here and i really do have a hard time finding friends that are on my wave length.

And, I've come to enjoy solitude more and more.....

That's my life too, but ocasionally it's therapeutic to rant about makes me want to rant. Internet is good, but I'm making mistakes every day about giving in to lazy habits and not pushing myself to get out of the house more, and stimulate myself in whatever ways I can.

[jaideeguy]

Yea, I do feel more isolated and actually avoid social events.....not being a social drinker limits me even more, but basically, I'm happy with life and consider myself lucky to have what I have......freedom to choose, good lifestyle, little stress and a beautiful wife that is [mostly] pleasant.

[xsplat]

Yea, I do feel more isolated and actually avoid social events.....not being a social drinker limits me even more, but basically, I'm happy with life and consider myself lucky to have what I have......freedom to choose, good lifestyle, little stress and a beautiful wife that is [mostly] pleasant.

Ya, stress kills, but boredom only makes me reach for the remote.

[seonai]

Maigo6 I am curious to hear your story. I came to Thailand because I felt there was a cord pulling me here. I could not control the urge. I came alone and on a one way ticket in 1992.

What about you?

[phutoie2]

There's a fabulous language to learn, history, culture, and growing arts scene, and if you care to seek it out plenty of intellectual debate on a wide range of subjects.

did you ever think of a career as a stand-up comedian GH?

Maigo6,you only have to seek it out, why only the other day I was returning my Mansfield Park & Great Expectations to the town library when I heard much laughter coming from one of my neighbours house. Looking inside were many folk from my Soi watching Mr Bean with a Lao soundtrack. I watched briefly and tried to make my excuses to leave as I just knew I was going to be engaged in another discussion on clever pastiches & contempory forms of pedantic humour in English comedies.

My feeble attempts at explaining I left school at 16 with English/Lang/Lit 'O' level cut no ice.

[RueFang]

So please tell me what your explanation is of why, if it is not linguistic limitation as I (?wrongly) supposed, is it often very difficult to explain things between Thais. Perhaps you don't think it is. Then I challenge you to spend a few days on my building site without being frustrated!

I put it down to the education system. I have a lot of contact with school kids and am horrified on an almost daily basis with how they do their homework. Copy and paste from the Internet without even reading the whole article. One person in a group of 5-10 kids does the work and then they print off 10 copies of the exact same thing to hand in to the teacher! And obviously the teachers approve because things don't seem to change year by year.

I know exactly what you're talking about listening/watching Thais trying to organise anything. It's mind boggling how anything gets done a lot of the time, but that said, it does get done just in Thai Time. I often watch things being done and know you could cut out 10 steps to get the job done faster, but that's how it is here.

Sorry if I came across as aggressive, just thought your statement about Thai language being so limited with your level of Thai was a bit over the top and like I said, I do actually agree with some of your points

It's like..... Oh, I met my wife in University,she just happened to be turned on by a huge fat gutted grey haired old man, she is 30 years younger than me and is independently wealthy. When we got married the deputy prime minister was one of the guests and her Father gave us 1000 Rai of land in Bangkok as a wedding present.

So, so true!!

Back on topic, I seem to go through phases of feeling intellectually stimulated and bored. Generally I don't get bored easily but I have no access to English books in my province so it's not like I can just go out and buy a book to read. If I didn't have the internet I would go insane..it's a neverending source of information and connecting people through forums and chat lines and I've met a lot of great people through it.

[Neeranam]

I knew a retired PhD who spent his evenings playing connect four with his wife who couldn't speak English and he couldn't speak Thai(apart from"poong" and "sanook".

Some people had a life of intellectualism and want to be silly in Thailand.

Opposites attract too - my wife is short, fat, ugly and stupid.

Anyone here with a beauiful, intelligent wife?

[BFD]

No, but I'm short, fat, ugly and stupid, so I'm really hoping your Opposites Attract Maxim is based on fact!

BFD!

[GuestHouse]

Do thought police actually help anybody? That's not a rhetorical question, and I don't claim to have the answer to it. But I'll trust my thought processes over those of the thought crime detection unit.

And a "bigoted" opinion would be a thought crime. Don't think about cultural differences, and don't discuss them, if it paints one group in a bad light.

Ah a defence of bigotry .... please tell us more. We are discussing intellect here, It would be nice to see some evidence of it.

I enjoy hearing other people's thoughts - particularly when they are based on some actual knowledge and understanding.

[EDIT] Let's just take a look at this xsplat and where his opinions on Political Correctness are coming from: Speak that I might know thee.

He's been a member less than a month and has started three threads.

Is It Bad To Have "racist" Thoughts? - Closed by the Moderators

Is Talking About Cultural Differences Taboo?

Do Locals Bore You?

Edited March 4, 2008 by GuestHouse

[Jingjok]

Seonai, in reality, I doubt many farangs go to Thailand for intellectual stimulation..................yeah, I know the posters here will say they did, but in reality, I don't think so.

I did, cos I'm different.

LOL!

And I'm more differenter than wot you is.

[cmsally]

With access to books and the internet, would you necessarily have to be less intellectually stimulated?

A lot of the time it's just a matter of choice.

I suppose I could move to the UK, get a mind numbing job, read the Sun, watch Eastenders and some of those instant fame shows; and a couple of celebrity chef shows for good measure. Would that make me more intellectually stimulated?

The choices are always around you, but sometimes you have to take the harder and more rewarding ones.

[Jingjok]

The Thai language

Let's do an experiment. Please translate the ten words below...

It's a relief that you do accept you could be wrong, otherwise you could be accused of being quite the ignoramus. Since you admit to not being fluent in Thai but then claim expert knowledge in the limitedness of the language you are not proficient in because you've listened to some phone conversations is slightly arrogant from my point of view.

The Thai equivalent (without being poetic) to your list:

Beautiful - สวย

Elegant - มารยาทดี

Exquisite - งดงาม

Gorgeous - หรูหรา

Pretty - เก๋

Ravishing - ปลื้ม

Resplendent - เปล่งปลั่ง

Splendid - โอ่โถง

Stunning - น่าตลึง

Sublime - งามเลิศ

You will note that only the first word involves สวย because that is literally 'beautiful'. You could do a similar list in Thai language and ask for the English translation for such things as emotions. There is no exact translation for a lot of Thai words as English perhaps uses only basic words such as happy or sad (bad example off the top of my head ) whereas Thai may have a dozen or more words. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong , because my Thai is limited …

Although this is becoming off-topic and the discussion is not really going anywhere, I did look up and learn your words last night as promised, then discussed them with two Thai friends this morning to obtain a consensus. Because there’s a danger of your list being taken by others as definitive translations, and by inference a complete destruction of my hypothesis, here’s what I discovered:

Beautiful - สวย Of course. Even I won’t argue with that.

Elegant - มารยาทดี No. มารยาท is ‘manners’ or ‘etiquette’. The appended ดี of course giving a positive meaning. A pleasant, useful and widely-used word, but not a translation for elegant.

Exquisite - งดงาม Yes, near enough, but better as a translation for pretty. Mary Haas has it as ‘pretty, beautiful, splendid’.

Gorgeous - หรูหรา No. Mary has it as ‘Luxurious, sumptuous, splendid, gorgeous’. So looking it up in an English-Thai dictionary might make it appear a correct translation, but that’s the danger of dictionaries. (cf. instructions on Chinese products ).

หรูหรา could never be used as a description of or compliment to a woman without sounding absurd. It only works for say clothing, buildings, and other inanimate objects.

Pretty - เก๋ Yup, OK, Mary says ‘chic, gay smart’. This word can apply to males as well as females.

Ravishing - ปลื้ม No! Mary has it as ‘to be glad, delighted, overjoyed’. It is a verb. Modern usage is to have pride in another, eg in one’s child who has won a prize.

Resplendent – เปล่งปลั่ง Yes, this one I agree. ‘To glow (with health), be radiant (of looks)’.

Splendid – โอ่โถง Again, as with หรูหรา , a dangerous dictionary definition: ‘to be splendid, magnificent, luxurious’. But this can only be applied to buildings, for example to describe a huge room ready for a wedding party. To use this as a synonym (albeit a hyperbolic, tongue-in-cheek synonym) for female beauty would be either absurd or insulting.

Stunning – น่าตลึง An interesting one. An almost literal translation, ตลึง has a sense of unexpected delight. To use with a woman would be very dangerous – implying that you never though she could look so good, because she usually doesn’t! Fun between friends though.

Sublime – งามเลิศ OK, agreed. A difficult one, and not a good choice on my part. Implies someone who is perfect – in looks as well as intellect etc. Used I believe in the translation of Snow White’ – Mirror mirror on the wall, who is the most งามเลิศ of them all?

Thanks for your second post by the way.

I did shoot myself in the foot here by choosing beauty words, a subject in which the Thai language is particularly richly endowed. As it is with emotion words, as many have pointed out.

I chose not to challenge the forum with eclectic, synergy, and other egregious esoterica, lest I be accused of being a pretentious twit as well as an ignoramus

I’m bored with this now and am going to paint my bathroom walls. It’s much more intellectually satisfying.