The Thai Middle Class

[vrsushi]

Everybody understands such phrases as " the Thai middle class value xyz" Lets forget for simplicity the question of attitudes, education and housing. Just wondering what people consider to be it's upper and lower parameters. I'll start the ball rolling.

I'd say above 40kbht and below 150kbht

But I admit that it's a really hard one to pin down. And yet we use the term "middle class" so what do we mean?

[ashacat]

Ignoring all social and class issues and concentrating purely on financial considerations......

I assume that you are referring to an individuals monthly salary? in Bangkok?

If so, I think I would say more like 25k - 60k for middle class.

Edited March 5, 2008 by ashacat

[Prakanong]

But just as elsewhere in Thailand middle class is not all about earnings.

Occupation, education level etc have to come into it too.

British and Americans tend to have a different take on it too - some considered middle class in American parlance would be considered "Working class" in the UK due to the education and job skill level - if i am not mistaken the USA would consider a skilled tradesman like an electrician middle class while in the UK he would be working class.

[Jingthing]

But just as elsewhere in Thailand middle class is not all about earnings.

Occupation, education level etc have to come into it too.

British and Americans tend to have a different take on it too - some considered middle class in American parlance would be considered "Working class" in the UK due to the education and job skill level - if i am not mistaken the USA would consider a skilled tradesman like an electrician middle class while in the UK he would be working class.

Yes, you are correct. In the US, its all about the money and skilled electricians can make alot of it.

[Briggsy]

Focusing solely on salary is insufficient. At the very least, the family's assets, particularly land and property must be considered.

[Prakanong]

Focusing solely on salary is insufficient. At the very least, the family's assets, particularly land and property must be considered.

What are bar girls who pull in 100,000+ THB a month whose families own rice farms and other land in Isaan considered

[Dakhar]

Focusing solely on salary is insufficient. At the very least, the family's assets, particularly land and property must be considered.

What are bar girls who pull in 100,000+ THB a month whose families own rice farms and other land in Isaan considered

I'd say they are tired women?

I bring in 200K, feel middle class if not less. I would never dream of owning land or a nice car & I am tired too.

[Prakanong]

Focusing solely on salary is insufficient. At the very least, the family's assets, particularly land and property must be considered.

What are bar girls who pull in 100,000+ THB a month whose families own rice farms and other land in Isaan considered

I'd say they are tired women?

I bring in 200K, feel middle class if not less. I would never dream of owning land or a nice car & I am tired too.

I am tired too - I was going to use the NE England term "Bug%ered" but that has other connotations

As for the girls - very tired if earning it each month but if sponsored for part or most of it making hay while the sun shines!

[johniescfc]

There seems to be a slightly nasty side to this middle class claptrap of the thai way of thinking.

I have noticed,in particular the women,who find nothing wrong in be-littling other thai women if it suits them.choice of clothes,how much gold they have,what type of property,new car or second hand car,type of hair cut and perm,how much money is farang giving/sending you,stitch farang up for more more more.

Some things never change as i have heard this for well over 4 years,both with working girls,hairdressers,tesco workers,and up country friends and relations.I honestly dont think that many thai girls think they are middle class because of what they have,they feel they are more superior if another thai lady is not stitching the farang up and she has to try and get the girl to think their way.

MIDDLE CLASS AND NASTINESS GO TOGETHER IN THE LAND OF SMIRKS.

[Plus]

I don't think you've done your research right - working girls, hairdressers or tesco workers don't automatically qualify as middle class here.

Besides, individual snobs could be found at any social level.

Many middle class members are not salaried workers but rather small business owners. Their montly spending budgets might be a lot less than 25k.

Government officials also rarely pull that kind of salary, too.

How about a family that is able to support itself - from food and housing to education for the kids.

[Prakanong]

A bit cynical there do you not think Johnie?

I have quite a few Thai colleagues who I am pretty sure are not stitching up a farang or have any intention of ever doing so.

Not all Thai women are in the "Profession" you know.

[TheDon]

There seems to be a slightly nasty side to this middle class claptrap of the thai way of thinking.

I have noticed,in particular the women,who find nothing wrong in be-littling other thai women if it suits them.choice of clothes,how much gold they have,what type of property,new car or second hand car,type of hair cut and perm,how much money is farang giving/sending you,stitch farang up for more more more.

Some things never change as i have heard this for well over 4 years,both with working girls,hairdressers,tesco workers,and up country friends and relations.I honestly dont think that many thai girls think they are middle class because of what they have,they feel they are more superior if another thai lady is not stitching the farang up and she has to try and get the girl to think their way.

MIDDLE CLASS AND NASTINESS GO TOGETHER IN THE LAND OF SMIRKS.

lol

Seems like you need to get more off you chest. I guess this is a start

[johniescfc]

I WAS GENERALISING IN MY OPINION OF THE MIDDLE CLASS TYPE.I FEEL THAT SNOBBERY IS AN ART FORM HERE BASED ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN.THE PROFESSION HAS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID,ONEUPMANSHIP IS THE ORDER OF THE DAY TO MANY(NOT ALL) THAI WOMEN.ALSO THERE ARE MANY THAI GUYS STITCHING UP FARANG LADIES(READ THEPOSTS).

MIDDLE CLASS HERE DOESNT SEEM TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOW MUCH MONEY THEY HAVE BUT A "I AM BETTER THN YOU ATTITUDE) ESP BK AND SOUTH THAILAND.

PS

I HAVE A WONDERFUL GF AND 7 YO SON AND SHE ISNT A SNOB OR MIDDLE CLASS,SHE IS A NICE QUIET PERSON WHO HATES WHAT SOME THAIS SAY ABOUT HOW FARANGS ARE ATM MACHINES,AND THE BRUTAL MURDERS OF SOME FOR MONEY.

[gunnyd]

Dude chill. Either you are really worked up or your shift key is broken. And frankly you will find people of all nationalities that think that their better than everyone else. I spend most of my time in Bangkok and have no idea what the heck you are getting so worked up about.

[GuestHouse]

If the OP is going to restrict the definition of middle class I think he'd be better advised to ask what are Thai 'Middle Incomes' avoiding the discussion of class altogether - In doing so he's far less likely to wind up British TV members, being as they are so very sensitive about the whole issue of 'Class'.

[Pepe']

A bit cynical there do you not think Johnie?

I have quite a few Thai colleagues who I am pretty sure are not stitching up a farang or have any intention of ever doing so.

Not all Thai women are in the "Profession" you know.

-------------------

Yes some of them will marry you and leave with half...

[Heng]

It's not just what you make, but what you keep, especially over generations.

[dominator]

Issan has probably got more middle/upper class Thais than anywhere else, due to generous 'donations' from their farang sons-in-law.

[Heng]

Unfortunately the concept of "take the ball and run with it" hasn't caught on there yet. Usually it's either "take it," "spend it," or "run away with it."

Until large numbers of folks can convert from an 'immediate gratification" to "delayed but more permanent gratification" mindset, it'll never change.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Heng

[Spiny]

If the OP is going to restrict the definition of middle class I think he'd be better advised to ask what are Thai 'Middle Incomes' avoiding the discussion of class altogether - In doing so he's far less likely to wind up British TV members, being as they are so very sensitive about the whole issue of 'Class'.

Agreed, I emigrated to Thailand / SE Asia from Uk 30 odd years ago to escape all these class issues. In the UK people (and people I meet from the Uk in Thailand) assumed by the way my accent sounded, that I was low / working class, even though I am Uni educated and have professional qualifications.

Most of my Thai colleagues/ professionals consider themselves well educated (all have degrees) "middle class", middle income, and support (when they can) and/or get support from their extended families when necessary

[Monroe]

I like to divide the class thing up a bit more (add, "etc." to the end of each list).

Working Class: food service, grocery store workers

Lower-Middle Class: truck Drivers, manual laborers, plumbers (even though some of them make a decent amount of money)

Middle Class: teachers, police, cubicle workers

Upper-Middle Class: doctors, architects and sometimes attorneys and dentists

Celebrities: Celebrities

Upper Class: Business Execs, prominent politicians

Sucks to constantly label people, but do what's natural, I suppose.

[Prakanong]

If the OP is going to restrict the definition of middle class I think he'd be better advised to ask what are Thai 'Middle Incomes' avoiding the discussion of class altogether - In doing so he's far less likely to wind up British TV members, being as they are so very sensitive about the whole issue of 'Class'.

Agreed, I emigrated to Thailand / SE Asia from Uk 30 odd years ago to escape all these class issues. In the UK people (and people I meet from the Uk in Thailand) assumed by the way my accent sounded, that I was low / working class, even though I am Uni educated and have professional qualifications.

Most of my Thai colleagues/ professionals consider themselves well educated (all have degrees) "middle class", middle income, and support (when they can) and/or get support from their extended families when necessary

I have not lost my north east accent (Durham) after almost 23 years away and certain types assume that I must have a certain type of job but then my position and location (Singapore and company) often throws them.

I am most often mistaken for an O&G guy.

When I first got to Uni hardly anyone could understand me but that was the dialect - I have lost that now but the accent is very strong (especially after a beer or when excited).

I still consider myself working class though

[Spiny]

If the OP is going to restrict the definition of middle class I think he'd be better advised to ask what are Thai 'Middle Incomes' avoiding the discussion of class altogether - In doing so he's far less likely to wind up British TV members, being as they are so very sensitive about the whole issue of 'Class'.

Agreed, I emigrated to Thailand / SE Asia from Uk 30 odd years ago to escape all these class issues. In the UK people (and people I meet from the Uk in Thailand) assumed by the way my accent sounded, that I was low / working class, even though I am Uni educated and have professional qualifications.

Most of my Thai colleagues/ professionals consider themselves well educated (all have degrees) "middle class", middle income, and support (when they can) and/or get support from their extended families when necessary

I have not lost my north east accent (Durham) after almost 23 years away and certain types assume that I must have a certain type of job but then my position and location (Singapore and company) often throws them.

I am most often mistaken for an O&G guy.

When I first got to Uni hardly anyone could understand me but that was the dialect - I have lost that now but the accent is very strong (especially after a beer or when excited).

I still consider myself working class though

I am proud of my working class origins also, but I object when people assume it has something to do with my intellectual capacity and the financial status of my current situation.

[xsplat]

There seems to be a slightly nasty side to this middle class claptrap of the thai way of thinking.

I have noticed,in particular the women,who find nothing wrong in be-littling other thai women if it suits them.choice of clothes,how much gold they have,what type of property,new car or second hand car,type of hair cut and perm,how much money is farang giving/sending you,stitch farang up for more more more.

Some things never change as i have heard this for well over 4 years,both with working girls,hairdressers,tesco workers,and up country friends and relations.I honestly dont think that many thai girls think they are middle class because of what they have,they feel they are more superior if another thai lady is not stitching the farang up and she has to try and get the girl to think their way.

MIDDLE CLASS AND NASTINESS GO TOGETHER IN THE LAND OF SMIRKS.

The Philippines is the place to go to see some hard core gossip-jostling. They use outright lies in order to gain social advantage.

[Prakanong]

"I am proud of my working class origins also, but I object when people assume it has something to do with my intellectual capacity and the financial status of my current situation."

I am totally with you there!!!

I do find its usually the under achievers or the thick ones who assume this first though. I suppose its often opposite in Asia though where they assume the Ang moh, Farang, Barang, Gwailo, Gaijin, buleh or whatever must be senior as he is in the office?

[younghusband]

If the OP is going to restrict the definition of middle class I think he'd be better advised to ask what are Thai 'Middle Incomes' avoiding the discussion of class altogether - In doing so he's far less likely to wind up British TV members, being as they are so very sensitive about the whole issue of 'Class'.

Agreed, I emigrated to Thailand / SE Asia from Uk 30 odd years ago to escape all these class issues. In the UK people (and people I meet from the Uk in Thailand) assumed by the way my accent sounded, that I was low / working class, even though I am Uni educated and have professional qualifications.

Most of my Thai colleagues/ professionals consider themselves well educated (all have degrees) "middle class", middle income, and support (when they can) and/or get support from their extended families when necessary

I am afraid that from the UK (English to be more specific) perspective, class still has only a limited relationship to wealth and education.The plebeian accent that you mention together with the associated manners and tastes that often go with it probably does tend define you in English class terms.In truth the distaste and mocking attitude of the true upper class is really reserved for the upwardly mobile middle class aspirants rather than the proles.It probably takes a couple of generations for wealth and education to be reflected in perceived social class.Actually in historical terms and compared with continental Europe that is rather quick (credit here to the public school gentlemanly ethos) but it remains the case that class distinction is still alive and well in England and provides much innocent amusement to all.Incidentally those who think class distinction doesn't exist in Thailand are rather naive:some of the antipathy to Thaksin is baed on distaste for a charmless and pushy jek having ideas above his station.

[Thai at Heart]

There seems to be a slightly nasty side to this middle class claptrap of the thai way of thinking.

I have noticed,in particular the women,who find nothing wrong in be-littling other thai women if it suits them.choice of clothes,how much gold they have,what type of property,new car or second hand car,type of hair cut and perm,how much money is farang giving/sending you,stitch farang up for more more more.

Some things never change as i have heard this for well over 4 years,both with working girls,hairdressers,tesco workers,and up country friends and relations.I honestly dont think that many thai girls think they are middle class because of what they have,they feel they are more superior if another thai lady is not stitching the farang up and she has to try and get the girl to think their way.

MIDDLE CLASS AND NASTINESS GO TOGETHER IN THE LAND OF SMIRKS.

Bravo. Thailand is filled with one upmanship like nowhere else and as for the Hi-So, I have never seen such a load of nouveau riche nonsense. Daddies little rich kids running aroud creating largely nothing and perpetuating their own myths.

My wife was asked they other day by a wannabe wife whether a CRV of Toyota Wish was "classqua"! To which she answered, they are both Japanere people carriers, nice cars, but why would you care. To which the other wife answered, but in front of the school there are so many Toyota Wish's I think a wish is "classqua".

I despair of this country's obsessions with cash wealth being the only measure of decency of a person.

[xsplat]

Sucks to constantly label people, but do what's natural, I suppose.

Ah, a philosopher after my own heart. Start with reality, and take it from there.

Its when people try to be Utopian when you know people are being merely academic.

You can't win a game of chess unless you study the rules, and if you don't like the rules, then play badminton. If class bothers you, then play a different game. But it's no sin to notice precisely how class functions.

I consider myself a bohemian, but am fascinated by the many social climbing avenues.

Edited March 6, 2008 by xsplat

[Spiny]

If the OP is going to restrict the definition of middle class I think he'd be better advised to ask what are Thai 'Middle Incomes' avoiding the discussion of class altogether - In doing so he's far less likely to wind up British TV members, being as they are so very sensitive about the whole issue of 'Class'.

Agreed, I emigrated to Thailand / SE Asia from Uk 30 odd years ago to escape all these class issues. In the UK people (and people I meet from the Uk in Thailand) assumed by the way my accent sounded, that I was low / working class, even though I am Uni educated and have professional qualifications.

Most of my Thai colleagues/ professionals consider themselves well educated (all have degrees) "middle class", middle income, and support (when they can) and/or get support from their extended families when necessary

I am afraid that from the UK (English to be more specific) perspective, class still has only a limited relationship to wealth and education.The plebeian accent that you mention together with the associated manners and tastes that often go with it probably does tend define you in English class terms.In truth the distaste and mocking attitude of the true upper class is really reserved for the upwardly mobile middle class aspirants rather than the proles.It probably takes a couple of generations for wealth and education to be reflected in perceived social class.Actually in historical terms and compared with continental Europe that is rather quick (credit here to the public school gentlemanly ethos) but it remains the case that class distinction is still alive and well in England and provides much innocent amusement to all.Incidentally those who think class distinction doesn't exist in Thailand are rather naive:some of the antipathy to Thaksin is baed on distaste for a charmless and pushy jek having ideas above his station.

Thank you for the awfull reminder, I guess I will learn to keep my gob shut in your company, should our paths converge.

It serves to reinforce my choice to retire in Thailand and keeping well alway from Uk and Uk expats.

Agreed on the existence of class distinctions at work in Thai society. As a former member of the Polo Club and a frequent guest sports player at the Royal Bangkok Sports Club, I witnessed this on many occasions between Thai's (light skin versus dark skin), Thai's and Thai born Indians etc.

[xsplat]

I am proud of my working class origins also, but I object when people assume it has something to do with my intellectual capacity and the financial status of my current situation.

My middly class Dad once made a dig about my job mates being working class. It made me confused for a few seconds, then I thought it was his unfamilarity showing, more than his insight into class differences.

Edited March 6, 2008 by xsplat