Russian Arms Dealer Arrested in Thailand

[funfun]

I find it rather amazing that quite a few people seem to think this guys arrest was wrong. Do we really need people like him walking around?

yeah i totally agree

His tourist visa has now been cancelled and he has been charged with illegal entry.

yep hes one baddy!

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/18Mar2008_news16.php

[Kerryd]

So what is he guilty of, the same things that various governments do on a regular basis when it's in their interests (i.e. arming the mujaheddin to fight the Russians in Afghanistan, supplying arms to the Hmong to fight the Vietnamese, supplying arms to various African groups to fight other African groups ?).

So it's OK to do those things if you are a government and want others to do your dirty work for you, but if someone else tries to move in to your turf, they are criminals ?

If this guy had been flying weapons in to groups that were trying to overthrow Iran, or North Korea, the US govt would have probably been picking up the tab for his 5 star hotel room. If the FARC rebels were trying to overthrow Chavez in Venezuela (instead of the Colombian govt), the US would have been sliding him suitcases full of money, not arrest warrants.

I'm not saying that Mr Bout is innocent, but it is a major hypocrisy to charge someone with a crime that you yourself are just of guilty of, only on a much larger scale. From what I've read here, it would appear that even the US has used Mr Bout's services, both overtly and covertly. Interesting that the DEA had to use a special, secret task force to set up the sting, as they were worried that various other agencies (i.e. the CIA, NSA and who knows who else) had dealings with Mr Bout and might tip him off.

I find it rather odd too, that Thailand can cancel his (I assume) properly issued and approved Tourist Visa, and then charge him with illegal entry into the country ? Kind of like giving a bar a license to sell alcohol, and then a week later cancelling the license and arresting the owner for illegally selling booze.

I think there's quite a bit of "back room" politics going on right now, and Thailand is probably wishing they had never gotten involved in the first place.

[Briggsy]

The remand period can be very long in Thailand, years. Then trials can often stretch over a similar period. Thus he could be held for years before a sentence is pronounced while they continually try to persuade him to give in and voluntarily go to the States.

[LaoPo]

I find it rather amazing that quite a few people seem to think this guys arrest was wrong. Do we really need people like him walking around?

yeah i totally agree

His tourist visa has now been cancelled and he has been charged with illegal entry.

yep hes one baddy!

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/18Mar2008_news16.php

"A police source said Mr Bout, who insists he is innocent, was arrested in the company of foreigners who were found to be agents of the US Drug Enforcement Administration."

...Drug Enforcement...?

Like I said before, Governments are LEGAL weapon dealers, can start Wars (...) but private/company dealers, if not wanted any longer by the same governments, will be charged and brought to trial, or worse.

Hypocrite to the finest... and I wonder if Mr. Putin c.s. will accept that Mr. Bout will be extradited to the US.

I think they even don't want him there...Mr. Bout knows too much and that's nasty for a country in an election period.

LaoPo

[Tony Clifton]

US Drug Enforcement Administration?

Wouldn't it be Tobacco and Firearms? Even then, do they even operate outside the U.S.?

Unless he was dealing heroin as well, then again, even with a U.S. and allies invasion of Afghanistan, we are looking at all time record crops of opium. There sure is a lot of hypocrisy in this world.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[Bill97]

Since he was such a heavy long term munitions dealer, isn't it likely that he got paid in drugs or took an opportunity to buy them since he had transport so well set up?

[Plus]

The remand period can be very long in Thailand, years.

I bet not for for billionairs with lawyers, and nor for dubious illegal entry charges.

They've done their "sting", what are they waiting for now? Some new evidence? Confession?

Will it turn into a drawn out extradition process? Americans obviously haven't prepared their paperwork in time, there were reports of trying to fly him to the US without any due process. At the moment it looks like a monumental screw up.

[waveydavey]

From "Not The Nation" -

“Lord of War” Henry Kissinger Arrested in Thailand

Merchant of Death nabbed in Pattaya hotel; faces extradition to Chile, Guatemala, Cambodia for supplying arms to known terrorists.

BANGKOK – Dubbed “The Lord of War” and “Merchant of Death” and wanted for war crimes in numerous countries, former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was arrested in a Pattaya Hotel Sunday evening, concluding a complex sting operation.

The 85-year old German-born American was captured by Thai police during a setup with undercover agents posing as Shi-ite Iranian insurgents who needed weapons to overthrow the current administration of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The arrest was made at 10:22 PM at the coffeehouse restaurant of the White Rose Hotel near Pattaya’s main walking street.

Kissinger’s arrest caps a worldwide manhunt that has spanned nearly 40 years, during which the alleged war criminal committed various offenses against humanity and international law, including masterminding Pol Pot’s Cambodian genocide, authorizing the bombing of unarmed civilians in Laos, supporting the dictatorship of Colonel Augusto Pinochet in Chile, arms sales to the Suharto government prior to the invasion of East Timor, and active participation in the partitioning of East Pakistan.

Additionally, Kissinger is suspected of using illegal money-laundering activities through Kissinger Associates and the disgraced Bank of Credit and Commerce International.

Already the subject of many books, including UK journalist Cristopher Hitchen’s “The Trial of Henry Kissinger,” the suspect’s bigger-than-life personality and multiple blood-soaked enterprises was rumored to be the inspiration behind Stanley Kubrick’s Cold War classic “Dr. Strangelove.” During his arrest Mr Kissinger remained subdued, requesting a lawyer in a droll monotone voice but offering no further comment.

News of Kissinger’s arrest resulted in a frenzy of requests for extradition from 13 different countries that have active warrants for his arrest. Thai authorities have insisted that prior to weighing any extradition requests, Mr Kissinger would first face multiple charges in Thailand including illegal weapons sales in Yala province, tax evasion, drunk and disorderly conduct, and overstaying his 90-day non-immigrant B visa.

Mr Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1973.

[Tony Clifton]

[ilyushin]

A recent article Novaya Gazeta

[funfun]

Thais Drop Charges Against Arms Suspect

By SUTIN WANNABOVORN – 1 hour ago

BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) — Thai police dropped charges Wednesday against a Russian man accused of being one of the world's most prolific black market arms dealers, saying they will proceed with hearings to extradite him to the United States.

Viktor Bout, a 41-year-old Russian, faces several counts in the U.S. of "conspiracy to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organization" for allegedly arranging to sell and transport weapons, including portable surface-to-air missiles to the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC.

Lt. Gen. Phongphan Chayaphan, chief of the Thai police's Crime Suppression Division, said Bout would remain detained pending extradition hearings, which he estimated would take 60 days.

Bout's lawyer in Thailand, Lak Nitiwatanavichan, said he would fight extradition.

Bout, who has been called the "Merchant of Death," was arrested March 6 at a Bangkok hotel after a sting operation in which undercover U.S. agents pretended to be arms buyers from the Colombian rebels.

He could face 15 years in prison on the U.S. charge. Thai authorities had held him on a charge of using the country as a base to negotiate a weapons deal with terrorists, for which he could have been imprisoned for 10 years.

Regarded as one of the world's most wanted arms traffickers, Bout's alleged list of customers since the early 1990s includes African dictators and warlords, including former Liberian President Charles Taylor, Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi and both sides of the civil war in Angola. In the process, he has been accused of breaking several U.N. arms embargoes.

Bout, who was purportedly the model for the arms dealer portrayed by Nicolas Cage in the 2005 movie "Lord of War," has denied the current allegations against him and any criminal activities in the past.

Bout's lawyer Lak said the U.S. charges were political in nature and did not represent a criminal case because the Colombian government is fighting the FARC rebels over differences of ideology. He also said the conflict in Colombia is outside of U.S. jurisdiction.

Extradition treaties between nations generally do not allow turning over suspects in cases of a political nature.

Lak said the Thai attorney general's office was awaiting more documents from the United States before officially forwarding the extradition case to court.

"Regarded as one of the world's most wanted arms traffickers" "Thai police dropped charges"

[Kerryd]

"Regarded as one of the world's most wanted arms traffickers" "Thai police dropped charges"

If I recall correctly, the only thing he was going to be charged with (in Thailand) was illegally entering the country (which was made after he had entered on a legal tourist visa, which they cancelled after his arrest, then charged him with entering illegally).

The real irritating point about this, (from my point of view) is that if the FARC were fighting in Venezuela instead of Colombia, agencies of the very same US Gov't would have possibly used Bout to supply and deliver those same weapons.

Another point to be considered (possibly). If he is (allegedly) guilty of violating various UN arms embargos (i.e. by flying weapons into Angola), who has jurisdiction ? Should it not be Interpol involved, instead of the US DEA ? Should he not be extradited to the Hague (location of the "World Court"), instead of the US ?

[Tony Clifton]

I'm still not convinced the arms deal was for FARC, rather local.

[Galong]

I predict he'll walk free... especially if he's paid the Thai cops some tea money.

[sriracha john]

He was in court today...

Suspected Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout arrives at Bangkok's Criminal Court to challenge his detention May 6, 2008. Bout, dubbed the "Merchant of Death" by some media, was nabbed in a U.S.-led sting operation and charged with trying to buy weapons for Colombian rebels in March 2008. The court rejected his challenge.

Reuters

Suspected Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout sits in a holding cell after arriving at the Criminal Court to challenge his detention in Bangkok May 6, 2008. The court rejected his challenge.

REUTERS

[jstumbo]

US Drug Enforcement Administration?

Wouldn't it be Tobacco and Firearms? Even then, do they even operate outside the U.S.?

Unless he was dealing heroin as well, then again, even with a U.S. and allies invasion of Afghanistan, we are looking at all time record crops of opium. There sure is a lot of hypocrisy in this world.

The FARC in Columbia is a major cocaine producer/trafficer. Maybe it was a drugs for guns deal.

Edited May 6, 2008 by jstumbo

[jstumbo]

Thailand holds 'top arms dealer'

Viktor Bout is arrested by Thai police (6 March 2008) Mr Bout is alleged to have sold weapons in many countries

A Russian man suspected of being one of the world's biggest illegal arms dealers has been arrested in Thailand.

Viktor Bout - who has been dubbed the "merchant of death" - was picked up by police at a luxury hotel in Bangkok.

...

When Belgium and Interpol issued an international arrest warrant for him in 2002, Mr Bout returned to Russia, where he was protected from extradition by the country's constitution.

...

I guess all the people slagging the US should also slag Belgium. I guess Belgium only put out an arrest warrent for him because they wanted to protect their weapons sales and did not want to compete with him. Belgium wanted to be able to sell to terrorist organizations and despots. I guess Belgium feels it needs to be the world police?

I do not understand why the US would have juristiction in an illegal arms deal between a Russian and a terrorist/drug organization in Columbia. Even if the US was pretending to be FARC, it should still have no juristiction. That would be like the US claiming juristiction on some guy from France that goes to Germany and commits a crime in Germany.

[Kerryd]

The latest news from FauxNews.

"Indictment: Reputed Russian Arms Smuggler Conspired to Kill"

Prosecutors announced an indictment Tuesday against a reputed Russian arms smuggler who they say tried to sell weapons to a U.S.-designated terrorist organization with the goal of killing Americans.

The indictment charges Viktor Bout with four terrorism offenses, including conspiring to kill Americans, conspiring to kill U.S. officers or employees, conspiring to provide material support to terrorists and conspiring to acquire and use an anti-aircraft missile.

Full story here: FoxNews

I like the part where "Bout conspired with others to sell millions of dollars worth of weapons, including 100 surface-to-air missiles and armor-piercing rockets", and how it doesn't mention that these millions of dollars worth of weapons were being offered by agents of the DEA (sounds a bit like entrapment to me. I offer to sell you something. You agree to buy it. I arrest you for agreeing to buy what I was offering to sell.)

I don't know, but I think with a good lawyer, even a jury in the US would have a hard time swallowing these "conspiracy" charges.

[bangkokbilly]

I would bet the federal prosecutors worked through the entrapment thing before going with the indictment -

ENTRAPMENT - A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a Government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person. So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.

On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime except for inducement or persuasion on the part of some Government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty. On the issue of entrapment the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped by government agents.

In slightly different words: Even though someone may have [sold drugs], as charged by the government, if it was the result of entrapment then he is not guilty. Government agents entrapped him if three things occurred:

- First, the idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime. (That obviously happened here)

- Second, the government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving him the opportunity to commit the crime is not the same as persuading him to commit the crime. (I doubt Bout needed much persuading)

- And third, the person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before the government agents spoke with him. (Chances are they have him on a wire or video - juries love that)

This guy is likely going to trial. Whether he's convicted is another story but I think that's likely. Once they get over the entrapment defense (often tried rarely successfully as the judge decides - this a matter of law not of fact), the conspiracy will be easy to prove. It may take fa ew years but I suspect Bout willl spend a long time in federal prison.

[jackspratt]

I do not understand why the US would have juristiction in an illegal arms deal between a Russian and a terrorist/drug organization in Columbia. Even if the US was pretending to be FARC, it should still have no juristiction. That would be like the US claiming juristiction on some guy from France that goes to Germany and commits a crime in Germany.

You may be surprised as to the extent of extra-territorial "jurisdiction" the US claims for itself around the world - often with total disregard for the legal systems of the affected 2nd country, be they friend or foe.

Then of course there is rendition........but we won't go there!

[Kerryd]

This guy is likely going to trial. Whether he's convicted is another story but I think that's likely. Once they get over the entrapment defense (often tried rarely successfully as the judge decides - this a matter of law not of fact), the conspiracy will be easy to prove. It may take fa ew years but I suspect Bout willl spend a long time in federal prison.

I'm not so sure he'll ever go on trial (in the US) or spend any time in a (US) federal prison. Mr Bout (and his lawyers) are no doubt using whatever resources they have to avoid having him extradited (to the US at least).

My understanding is they (the US and/or the Thai governments) can't forcibly extradite him unless a (Thai) court orders it (early on there was an article about a failed attempt to force him onto a plane). Even then, it is likely all the court could do is either order him deported to his home country, or his last point of origin.

In that case, all the US could do is try to have him arrested at where ever he is supposed to go to and start all over again (assuming he actually arrives at that location). According to earlier articles as well, his last point of origin was Moscow anyways, so if he gets back there the US is SoL (apparently the US has been trying, unsuccessfully, for 10 years to have him arrested and extradited from Russia).

[bangkokbilly]

The Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) make this a entirely different ball game. While true the Thai govt. (courts, AG office, Parliment) must approve the extradition, it routinely happens. Plus in a high profile case like this, the Thais do not want to appear to be letting a real bad guy go. I'm sure his lawyers and the Russians will scream, but in the end the US has a treay with Thailand. Either they live up to it or not. The 60 day clock is ticking - we'll know more by late June. No doubt money has changed hands to let a few doors go unlocked overnight but the loss of face for the Thai govt would be huge if this guys escapes. Understanding TIT, I still think he'll be playing solitaire in either Colorado or Illinois.

[Plus]

The Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) make this a entirely different ball game.

[Kerryd]

The Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) make this a entirely different ball game.

Is that the same thing as an Extradition Treaty (or is Extradition Treaty the more commonly known name for the MLAT) ?

I'm not sure on the details though, but aren't those kinds of treaties meant to deal with citizens of the respective countries ? i.e if a Thai citizen comitted a crime in Thailand and fled to the US, this kind of treaty would assist the Thai government in getting that person back.

More or less the same thing that the US and Mexico have, and are using to get that US Marine back that is accused of murder.

If that is the case, how does it apply to people that are not citizens of either country. Mr Bout is obviously not American or Thai, so would unlikely be subject to a treaty like that.

It could set a rather nasty precedent as well, if the US were able to suddenly use other countries to arrest citizens of different countries and then have them extradited to the US.

[sriracha john]

I believe the extradition is related to the charges against him...as they apply to American citizens as his victims:

According to American Department Of Justice, "The Indictment unsealed today charges Bout with four separate terrorism offenses: Count One: Conspiracy to kill United States nationals; Count Two: Conspiracy to kill United States officers or employees; Count Three: Conspiracy to acquire and use an anti-aircraft missile; and Count Four: Conspiracy to provide material support or resources to a designated foreign terrorist organization.

If convicted, Bout faces a maximum sentence of life imprisonment on each of Counts One through Three, including a mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years’ imprisonment for Count Three. Bout faces a maximum sentence of 15 years’ imprisonment on Count Four."

As for the citizenship of the defendant, I don't think that comes into play as the USA has several treaties, with the UK and Canada for example, that allows the extradition of both citizens and non-citizens from those countries.

[jstumbo]

I do not understand why the US would have juristiction in an illegal arms deal between a Russian and a terrorist/drug organization in Columbia. Even if the US was pretending to be FARC, it should still have no juristiction. That would be like the US claiming juristiction on some guy from France that goes to Germany and commits a crime in Germany.

You may be surprised as to the extent of extra-territorial "jurisdiction" the US claims for itself around the world - often with total disregard for the legal systems of the affected 2nd country, be they friend or foe.

Then of course there is rendition........but we won't go there!

So it looks like they are claiming they have juristiction because the weapons would be sold to FARC and FARC would use them to kill US soldiers and DEA agents that are working in Columbia. Seems like they would have to be specifically intended for that. Definately the US over reaches many times.

Actually rendition makes more sense to me, since most (but not all, there definately have been some mistakes) of the time it is some terrorist guy that is plotting against the US and they just want to grab him up and send him to a nice little island (or send him to some friendly country that is a little more persuasive than the US is in interragations). At least in that case I can see where there would be some type of juristiction. You do not hear about them "renditioning" some guy in Thailand that is planning an attack against a non US target in some third country.

[jstumbo]

duplicate

Edited May 8, 2008 by jstumbo

[Kerryd]

According to American Department Of Justice, "The Indictment unsealed today charges Bout with four separate terrorism offenses: Count One: Conspiracy to kill United States nationals; Count Two: Conspiracy to kill United States officers or employees; Count Three: Conspiracy to acquire and use an anti-aircraft missile; and Count Four: Conspiracy to provide material support or resources to a designated foreign terrorist organization.

As for the citizenship of the defendant, I don't think that comes into play as the USA has several treaties, with the UK and Canada for example, that allows the extradition of both citizens and non-citizens from those countries.

Hmmm, lets see if I recall correctly. The US supplied weapons (including anti-aircraft missiles), through the Pakistani Intelligence Service, to the mujahideen in Afghanistan (which I'm sure they Russians probably viewed as a terrorist organization at the time).

So, should Russia have been seeking to have various members of the US government arrested (even in foreign countries) and extradited to the (then) USSR ? Or is it OK to do pretty much the exact same thing if you are a government, but not if you are a private citizen ? (So much for free enterprise and laws against monopolies !)

If it had been Mr Bout (or someone similar) supplying the arms to the mujahideen, would that have been overlooked by the US because it was in their interests ?

What about Mr Oliver North's shennanigans, where he arranged to sell weapons (including hi-tech anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles) to "moderate" factions inside Iran (with the assistance of an arms broker, Mr Ghorbanifar), and use a portion of the proceeds to fund Contra rebels in Nicaragua ? When you consider that this was highly illegal (at the time) and went directly against laws passed by Congress, yet from what I can see, Mr North appears to not have spent anytime behind bars.

Oh yeah, that happened under Reagan's watch (kind of like the supplying of arms to the mujahideen while Ronnie was in charge as well). Interesting to note as well that it appears most of the people involved were later pardoned, by GW Bush.

I'm just trying to make a point about how it's pretty hypocritical to want to arrest someone for doing the same things you yourself (as in the US gov't) have done.

As for the designated terrorist organization label, obviously each country can pretty much label whoever they want as a terrorist organization, especially if their goals don't match. For example, Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by the US, but other countries aren't willing to label them as such (because they also do good things like build schools and hospitals).

Remember the old saying, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" ?

I'm not saying the FARC are "freedom fighters". Far from it. But there probably are a lot of people in that region that see them as the next coming of Simon Bolivar or Che Guevara. If Colombia wasn't an ally of the US (right now), this would be a whole different story (or not a story at all).

As I mentioned previously, if the FARC were doing the same thing, but in Venezuela instead of Colombia, we probably wouldn't be discussing it either.

Ah well, makes for interesting discussions at least ! Too bad I wasn't home, might have been interesting to pop up to Bkk and interview Mr Bout (Hi, my anonymous handle on ThaiVisa is Kerryd, and I'd like to interview you on behalf of the hordes of TV members that have been discussing your future recently. What's that ? A pay-off ? A carton of ciggies for a 5 minute interview ? How much KY ? Pictures of my what ?!?!? OK, never mind, we'll just make up stuff as we go. Have a great day.)

[Supaporn]

If this topic is now a venue to flame, bash, or otherwise vent on the US and its policies, then should not the topic be changed or moved to USA Visa? Otherwise - why not keep to the topic of a Russian in Thailand dealing in arms.

[TAWP]

Since the fact that he was in Thailand has in a way no bearing on the case?

DEA agents setting up a sting to capture a Russian they have both been helped and foiled by...

Even the UN has hired his services, when needed.