What Legal Document Proves Foreign House Ownership?

[JimmyGreaves]

What is the legal document that proves a foreigner owns a house/building?

and

What is the legal document that proves a Thai owns a house/building?

[ThaiLawOnline]

The "Ta bian ban" proves who is the owner of a house.

It is a "house registration book".

It's made at the "Amphur" (district office)...in BKK, an Amphur is called "Khit" I believe.

For Thai people, it's a BLUE BOOK.

Ta bian ban = house

Title deed = land

[JimmyGreaves]

So for a foreigner you need to get a "Ta bian ban" is that correct to be the legal owner of a house?

[Khun Jean]

Yes. And for that you need a lease contract for the land or a usufruct. And the book will be Yellow.

I am not sure if you are married and you just use the land of your wife.

But in that case it will be shared property anyway and registering it to you wife would be easy and give the same 'protection'.

but!. The yellow book in itself is not a proof of ownership, it is a proof of your address.

I think it is the building permit that proofs that. Or some other document.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Khun Jean

[JimmyGreaves]

but!. The yellow book in itself is not a proof of ownership, it is a proof of your address.

I think it is the building permit that proofs that. Or some other document.

This is the issue my original post refers to. What is the legal document that says you own the house?

[egg6447]

in my humble opinion, i dont know of any legal papers that would stand alone as proof of ownership. however my beliefe is if you have proof of perchase, either the standing house or building materials, then in court you,d be pretty well off. this would apply to all parties of course. thats my take on it.

[phuketrichard]

if You have had the house bult your name on the permit papers serve to show the house is yours (thats how mine is). Alos having bank recipts showing the money came in to purchase build the house.

Other than that make sure u have ur name on the back of the Nor sor sam gor or Chanot land paper and get ur name in the back of the Taam bien Baan house paper as the legal owner of the house

[JimmyGreaves]

Ok so now I am maybe one step closer to solving this but have been confused by IssanLawyers, who you would have thought could give you a correct legal answer.

1. The building permit needs to be in my name (Document)

2. I have to show proof that I purchased the materials (Documents From the bank + building material receipts)

Anymore confirmations to prove that these are the documents that I need to prove legal ownership of a building?

If this is true then the tabian bahn is not required!

Edited March 16, 2008 by jflundy

[JimmyGreaves]

I find this unbelievable as so many falangs talk about putting the house in their name that no one can give a positive answer to what constitutes them legally owning that house that they bought.

Bumped!

[quiksilva]

Only one document truly shows that you own the Freehold interest in the land and that is the title deed, here that is known as the Chanode, which is off limits to you seeing as you are a foreigner.

The other books mentioned above merely show that you are resident at this address or are the head of the house. Useful but they do not constitute ownership in and of themselves because they do not show that you own the Fee Simple Absolute in Possession (google it), only the Chanode does that.

[JimmyGreaves]

Only one document truly shows that you own the Freehold interest in the land and that is the title deed, here that is known as the Chanode, which is off limits to you seeing as you are a foreigner.

The other books mentioned above merely show that you are resident at this address or are the head of the house. Useful but they do not constitute ownership in and of themselves because they do not show that you own the Fee Simple Absolute in Possession (google it), only the Chanode does that.

God the question does not want to know about the land as is clearly stated, I want to know about the bloody house! Screeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmm.

Not in LOS at the moment or I would at this point go and talk to a lawyer. But I just cannot believe no one knows.

Edited March 19, 2008 by jflundy

[LoveDaBlues]

Only one document truly shows that you own the Freehold interest in the land and that is the title deed, here that is known as the Chanode, which is off limits to you seeing as you are a foreigner.

The other books mentioned above merely show that you are resident at this address or are the head of the house. Useful but they do not constitute ownership in and of themselves because they do not show that you own the Fee Simple Absolute in Possession (google it), only the Chanode does that.

God the question does not want to know about the land as is clearly stated, I want to know about the bloody house! Screeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmm.

Not in LOS at the moment or I would at this point go and talk to a lawyer. But I just cannot believe no one knows.

The owner of the land must agree to put the farang's name on the Chanote as owner of the house. This is normally done BEFORE the house is built; along with a lease, usufruct, etc.

[JimmyGreaves]

The owner of the land must agree to put the farang's name on the Chanote as owner of the house. This is normally done BEFORE the house is built; along with a lease, usufruct, etc.

That's fantastic thanks 'LoveDaBlues'

So this would probably entail a trip to the land department to authorise this and a copy of the chanote so you have some evidence as a hard copy.

Ok then can more than 1 person be put on the chanote for joint ownership?

[LoveDaBlues]

The owner of the land must agree to put the farang's name on the Chanote as owner of the house. This is normally done BEFORE the house is built; along with a lease, usufruct, etc.

That's fantastic thanks 'LoveDaBlues'

So this would probably entail a trip to the land department to authorise this and a copy of the chanote so you have some evidence as a hard copy.

Ok then can more than 1 person be put on the chanote for joint ownership?

I don't know why multiple persons can't be shown as owners. Are you building a house or buying an existing house?

[JimmyGreaves]

The owner of the land must agree to put the farang's name on the Chanote as owner of the house. This is normally done BEFORE the house is built; along with a lease, usufruct, etc.

That's fantastic thanks 'LoveDaBlues'

So this would probably entail a trip to the land department to authorise this and a copy of the chanote so you have some evidence as a hard copy.

Ok then can more than 1 person be put on the chanote for joint ownership?

I don't know why multiple persons can't be shown as owners. Are you building a house or buying an existing house?

Building a house. Ideally I would like my name alone as the owner but the g/f to get the blue book. But am prepared to go 50/50 if it means she can get the blue tabian book. Don't want to go 100% g/f and loose complete control.

Edited March 19, 2008 by jflundy

[LoveDaBlues]

The owner of the land must agree to put the farang's name on the Chanote as owner of the house. This is normally done BEFORE the house is built; along with a lease, usufruct, etc.

That's fantastic thanks 'LoveDaBlues'

So this would probably entail a trip to the land department to authorise this and a copy of the chanote so you have some evidence as a hard copy.

Ok then can more than 1 person be put on the chanote for joint ownership?

I don't know why multiple persons can't be shown as owners. Are you building a house or buying an existing house?

Building a house. Ideally I would like my name alone as the owner but the g/f to get the blue book. But am prepared to go 50/50 if it means she can get the blue tabian book. Don't want to go 100% g/f and loose complete control.

Get a usufruct from the GF. The contract with the builder will only show your name. Keep a paper trail of all the payments to the builder. This proves you own the house (you paid for it). As far as I'm aware the tabian baan only shows who resides at the house and who is head of the household; it does not show who owns the structure.

[kamalabob2]

A Farang certainly can be the one person listed on a valid building permit in Thailand. This document is one of two possible papers that can prove ownership of a structure. The Thai person would normally own the land, and be listed as posted. The Thai land owner would also be listed on the receipts for annual land tax payments. It is very easy to show all payments to your home builder, any sub contractors or suppliers you elect to pay as part of your building contract via bank "on line" transfers from your Bank account in Thailand. Most merchants have bank accounts with many different Thai Banks. You certainly will have a proper "paper trail" to prove you PAID for the structure, but the Building Permit (which will cost less than 1000 baht) is the legal document that proves who owns a structure, unless you bought a condo.

If you search on line you can find out what documents you will need to obtain the building permit, but like many transactions with a government office in Thailand, different staff, different office, different time of day and the actual requirements in your case may vary. It took one month, one revision to the building plans to obtain my building permit. The one item I did not fully understand at first was to be listed in a Yellow House book and then the process went smooth. Once the home was 90% completed, I then obtained a new "yellow house book" listing me in the new home. My wife and daughter are listed in a Blue House book for the new home, previously they were in the family house book in the village. in my opinion, PAYING FOR and OWNING a structure are not the same unless you have the BUILDING PERMIT in your name.

[DisainaM]

I find this unbelievable as so many falangs talk about putting the house in their name that no one can give a positive answer to what constitutes them legally owning that house that they bought.

Bumped!

google : building-permit thailand

and you will find another topic in this forum

[LoveDaBlues]

A Farang certainly can be the one person listed on a valid building permit in Thailand. This document is one of two possible papers that can prove ownership of a structure. The Thai person would normally own the land, and be listed as posted. The Thai land owner would also be listed on the receipts for annual land tax payments. It is very easy to show all payments to your home builder, any sub contractors or suppliers you elect to pay as part of your building contract via bank "on line" transfers from your Bank account in Thailand. Most merchants have bank accounts with many different Thai Banks. You certainly will have a proper "paper trail" to prove you PAID for the structure, but the Building Permit (which will cost less than 1000 baht) is the legal document that proves who owns a structure, unless you bought a condo.

If you search on line you can find out what documents you will need to obtain the building permit, but like many transactions with a government office in Thailand, different staff, different office, different time of day and the actual requirements in your case may vary. It took one month, one revision to the building plans to obtain my building permit. The one item I did not fully understand at first was to be listed in a Yellow House book and then the process went smooth. Once the home was 90% completed, I then obtained a new "yellow house book" listing me in the new home. My wife and daughter are listed in a Blue House book for the new home, previously they were in the family house book in the village. in my opinion, PAYING FOR and OWNING a structure are not the same unless you have the BUILDING PERMIT in your name.

I agree with this post 100% with regards to building in an area where a building permit is required.

[quiksilva]

Only one document truly shows that you own the Freehold interest in the land and that is the title deed, here that is known as the Chanode, which is off limits to you seeing as you are a foreigner.

The other books mentioned above merely show that you are resident at this address or are the head of the house. Useful but they do not constitute ownership in and of themselves because they do not show that you own the Fee Simple Absolute in Possession (google it), only the Chanode does that.

God the question does not want to know about the land as is clearly stated, I want to know about the bloody house! Screeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmm.

Not in LOS at the moment or I would at this point go and talk to a lawyer. But I just cannot believe no one knows.

Do you usually over react or is it just that time of the month?

The term you are looking for is probably "superficies". Search this forum for more information.

[JimmyGreaves]

Maybe nearly there.

1. The building permit needs to be in my name

2. Proof that I purchased the materials (Documents From the bank + building material receipts) - Not 100% Sure about this.

3. Chanote needs to have my name on the back (Can possibly have multiple names)

The above will prove that I legally own the house!

This will allow me to get a Yellow Tabian bahn that gives me proof of where I live in Thailand.

Do I just sign something that will then give my partner (thai) and our daughter rights to have a blue tabian bahn book?

Many Thanks

[andrewfr]

Only one document truly shows that you own the Freehold interest in the land and that is the title deed, here that is known as the Chanode, which is off limits to you seeing as you are a foreigner.

The other books mentioned above merely show that you are resident at this address or are the head of the house. Useful but they do not constitute ownership in and of themselves because they do not show that you own the Fee Simple Absolute in Possession (google it), only the Chanode does that.

God the question does not want to know about the land as is clearly stated, I want to know about the bloody house! Screeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmm.

Not in LOS at the moment or I would at this point go and talk to a lawyer. But I just cannot believe no one knows.

Do you usually over react or is it just that time of the month?

The term you are looking for is probably "superficies". Search this forum for more information.

Does anyone know the correct term in Thai for superficies? I can only find references to usufruct as siddhi kep kin.

[phuketrichard]

Maybe nearly there.

1. The building permit needs to be in my name

2. Proof that I purchased the materials (Documents From the bank + building material receipts) - Not 100% Sure about this.

3. Chanote needs to have my name on the back (Can possibly have multiple names)

The above will prove that I legally own the house!

This will allow me to get a Yellow Tabian bahn that gives me proof of where I live in Thailand.

Do I just sign something that will then give my partner (thai) and our daughter rights to have a blue tabian bahn book?

Many Thanks

Make it simply. This is how i did it in Phuket and i just sold the house and land, (after living there for over 6 years) with no problems

1. When u build the house your name is on the building permit and you sign all papers with your contractor. Usually payments

are made as such;

25% on signing contract to build the house

25% more after the basic structure is complete

25% more after the structure is closed in and interior work begins

15% when u do a final walk thru

10% after 6 months to cover in case they need to fix something.

All payments should come from YOU.

This shows U built and own the house.

2. THE owner of the LAND can apply for the BLUE tambien baan at any time, then after the house is 75% complete she can apply for electric

and a house number

3. First who owns the land? If it is your wife her name and your daughter will go on the taanbien baan. They don't need permission from you.

4. arrange a min 30 year lease between your wife and you, ( 30+30+30 years leases mean nothing as the orginal signer of the first 30 year lease needs to be alive to verify the second 30 year lease so this really is only good if a company owns the land, all legal papers have to have a copy of the signers id card and dated LESS than 3 months ago unless company owns the land) If she comes back with, "what don't u trust me?" tell her its for your daughters and your protection in case something happens to her.

You then go to the land office and have the lease registered and the lease with your name will be on back on the nor sor sam or Chanote paper

5. You can then have your name listed on the back page of the BLUE taambien baan showing u reside there. You do not need the yellow book if u do this.

6. In Phuket i never paid any yearly tax nor did I owe any when i sold the house and land

As i said this i what i did here in Phuket and had zero trouble or problems. When i sold the house and land we had to cancel the lease and then once that was done she could sell the house and transfer the land paper after paying tax of 4.5%. This was all done at the same time and took less than 1 hour

It seems so many people here make it more troble than it actually is. :-)

Edited June 13, 2008 by phuketrichard

[gdhm]

My wife owns the land.

At the same time of purchase and registration in the Land Dept. my wife and I signed AND registered WITH THE LAND DEPT. a Usufruct in my name. This gave me 100% sole rights of usage for the land during my life time. The land had no building on it.

I afterwards:

1) Contracted in writing with a builder in my name only (witnessed by other including my land owner wife)

2) I submitted an architect plan of my new house to be built to the Land Dept. (together with a copy of my Usufruct) and and applied IN MY NAME for planning permission to build my house and received approval

3) I have obtained a Yellow Tabien Baan and my wife a blue one where is states I am the house owner and my wife is the land owner.

4) Water is connected in my name only. (Admittedly electricity was put in my wife's name as the Electricity Co. did not know what a Usufruct was and would not accept it for fear of being in error. I had to agree to allow the electricity in my wife's name or the builder would not have had any supply to build my house with. It does not affect me but actually makes my wife responsible for my electricity bill if I ever defaulted which is not fair to her even though she will never be compromised over this.

I used Isaan Lawyers for my Usufruct and wife's land purchase and was very happy with their advice and service.

Hope this helps

Dave

[ThaiLawOnline]

This is a very good example why I don't post a lot on forums.

Do you think a forum is a good place to get legal advice... Answer is No.

We sponsor Thaivisa because people get to know our company. It's called marketing and that is NOT illegal.

That doesn't mean we are liars, bias, or anything else?

Was the initial writer been confused by me or by all the other posters?

And who does he believe?

Who do you believe?

There are people here using nicknames only to "hit" on competitors. (like other law firms)

And I am getting tired of it so I don't post often. I did an article on usufruct that was well received.

I believe it's because there was nothing on usufruct (more or less) before...

I tried to write one on wills, and got #*#?. I am now working to write one on divorce, trying to get the best decisions from the Thai supreme court, arguments, the law, etc in English but I am afraid to post it here....

People will not say THANKS, that's helpful. They will try to find the problems, ask more questions, etc.

Some people hate "lawyers" and I understant that. I don't like lawyers too and would love to see a world without them.

But it is my job. I studied law to help people and for justice. I was naive. I must still be naive. 39 years-old, married to a Thai wife, living in Isaan and trying to help our company who has 5 employees. If I wanted a bigger salary, I wouldn't stay here... No, we are not a big law firm. 5 employees full time + me. But we are doing OK. And in Isaan, it's not easy.

Justice doesn't exist and everyone knows the law more than you.

This law is never the same, according to the location (jurisdiction on territory), the time (jurisdiction on time, prescription, retroactivity, law modifications in time), people (jurisdicton on the age, incompentency of people,) etc.

And no, I did NOT study Thai law. Just 4 years of civil Law (and common law), the same (civil law) that Thailand copied from French Law (I am from Montreal, Canada and we have a civil code copied on French law for private law...while public law comes from Common law). Do I know usufructs? Yes, for 15 years. Did I study immovable and movable property? Yes. I also know about emphyteutic (not sure of the spelling in English - Emphytheose in French) leases and other stuff that I didn't see in Thailand. That is not the point. Everyone can open a law firm in Thailand. But not everyone is qualified. Some will say that I am not qualified because I am not a Thai lawyer. All foreigners are not Thai lawyers. And all Thai lawyers are not necesserely qualified...

I am teaching some thai lawyers about THEIR law. Education is not the same in western coutries.

At the same time, I have problems to get English information about Thai law cases, Thai laws, etc.

I live in Korat. Not Pattaya, Bangkok or Phuket.

Thaivisa is a large pool of knowledge and it could help so many people.

At the same time, you can find so much unaccurate information on internet. Be careful.

Posters might act in good faith....but the law is the law. and when people don't know it, you got all kinds of answers.

The initial question was "What is the legal document that proves a foreigner/Thai owns a house/building?"

My answer was TA BIEN BAN. I stick with it. But this is not an easy question to answer.

I work with 4 different Thai lawyers, (2 fulltime, 2 part time) and it's unbelievable, they all agree with my answer about this thread! But I might be wrong... who knows...

The question was NOT how TO GET THE OWNERSHIP. It was about DOCUMENTS.

If it was HOW TO GET IT, even then, you would have not even 50% of the answer with all these posts.

Have you read book 4 of the Commercial and Thai civil Code? It's on our website. In English. Have a look.

Go in the info section, under property. I can't post a link here.

Try to understand section 1308 and following... It could be VERY complicated.

If you want to know about usufruct or superficies, it's there too.

In Quebec, it's article 1110 of our Civil Code. It Thailand, it's under 1410 and following...

Thailand did not invented usufruct, superficies, leases, etc.

Without going into details, superficies agreements die in Thailand with the life of the owner (section 1412), that's why I prefer usufruct in most cases.

Right of habitation is just for the house, a usufruct can be for the house and land. That's also better to my opinion.

Some of the answers says that only the Chanotte can prove who is the owner... This is actually the reality if the land is attached to the house. But there are also other title deeds like Nor Sor Sam that can say WHO owns the land.

So, that answer is not fully correct. After that, you must distinguish movable and immovable property.

It's a little crazy in Thailand that you can separate the house and the land... But this is Thailand and their law.

My theory is that some lawyers and real estate agents tried to make it look better for foreigners to buy...and make it really complicated. I also believe that it's crazy to separate the land and the house. But you can do it here...

If you have a small house and land and want some legal protection, avoid making all these problems, companies, ta bien ban, and the usufruct will cover all, until you die. It doesn't cover your heirs.

I am not saying that it's perfect... Sometimes, a lease will be better.

Some theories like "undue enrichment" (section 406 and following) and the part about ownership in book 4 (section 1308 and following) could be used by the owner of the "house" in case of problems. That's true. What is the value of the property you want to buy or build? someone asked the person who posted the question? And they give you legal advice?

Read carefully these comments:

1) Keep the bills of the house, they will show that you are the owner! (that's completely against what Quicklsilva said on title deeds - and I like Quicksilva. From his posts, I believe he works in real estate and is a genuine guy wanting to help people). Now, tell that (keep the bills) to some of my clients who paid the full house and are in court for divorce or getting back some money. They have all the bills!!!!!!!! If it was so easy, all foreigners would get back their money because most Thai ladies they married don't pay a penny for the house. In reality, many foreigners lose money. But keeping records of what you paid will help.....IN CASE OF PROBLEMS. That doesn't prove ownership (because the house can be attached to the land, immovable property and foreigners can't own the land - in general) Have you ever read the confirmation letter asked at the land department? It's also on our website...info - real estate and property. Not only married couple sign it.... sometimes, they asked it for unmarried couple to register a usufruct! Welcome to Thailand, the law is the law and all land departments are diffrerent!

2) Put the building permit on your name: that will show that you are the owner. (now imagine that I build a house with a building permit on my name, I sell it (with the land that would be on my wife's name) to Mr. X... Mr X sells to Mr. Y...Do you think because the building permit is on my name that I own the structure on the land after selling it? It's a BUILDING PERMIT...not an ownership document.

And now I will be straight forward with BL4U. If you can't understand that a usufruct is stronger in law in than a lease, you should keep studying. And go abroad because Thai lawyers don't really study Usufructs in Thailand (from what 8 Thai lawyers told me - you want their names, write to me and I will tell you). I already wrote many reasons why a usufruct is stronger. A usufruct is not the perfect solution and there are none in Thailand. A good lawyer should ask questions to the clients, show options, problems, etc. Tomorrow, I will know about the new regulations about Thai companies starting July first. That will be great.

Did someone asked if the guy (jflundy) had a prenuptial agreement?

Did someone explain that EVEN if he is the FULL owner of a house built after being married he will only get 50% of the ownership because it will be under SIN SOMROS (common property when people are married in Thailand). He is using the word GF so I presume that he is not married...

Did someone asked him where he wanted to purchase the land/house and the value? What about his age, his heirs, what does he want to do with the land? In Kalasin, it's difficult to register a usufruct...

There is a new thread about a gay couple in Chiangmai. They got a usufruct one year ago I heard so many comments about you need to be married, bla bla bla, it can be voided... but never a decision. Never a clear text. I did one usufruct for a gay couple and had some problems. Glad to see that these guys were able to do it...

I have to thank GDHM (Dave) who posted how he did his work. It's clear and these are FACTS. Did he say that the ta bian ban of his wife mentionned who is the owner of the house? It's nice to see a happy clients helping you... Thanks Dave.

I work 70 hours per week and don't have time to answer all threads, posts, messages on forums. I would love to help more. I had a partner in KK who started 2 months ago and already left. Isaan was too difficult for him! He used to work in Bangkok for a law firm (Pensit) and many years in Scotland for another one.

These messages and answers make me think: Should I continue to answer messages here or somewhere else? I also want to have a family life and enjoy Thailand.

I won't answer the next messages on this thread. My answer was clear. And I have to write a LONG MESSAGE to explain it. You want more information, details, explanation, advice, just write me an email. I will be glad to help as many people as I can. If I can't help, I will normally tell you. Thailand is big. You can also use any other law firm in your area. Also ask your embassy...or check the OFFICIAL websites on Thailand

land department : w w w . do l. go . th

DBD w w w . d b d . go. th

MFA w w w . m f a . go . th

I hope these links will not be deleted...put all letters together. Internet is a wonderful tool. Use it carefully.

[Khun Jean]

My wife owns the land.

At the same time of purchase and registration in the Land Dept. my wife and I signed AND registered WITH THE LAND DEPT. a Usufruct in my name. This gave me 100% sole rights of usage for the land during my life time. The land had no building on it.

I afterwards:

1) Contracted in writing with a builder in my name only (witnessed by other including my land owner wife)

2) I submitted an architect plan of my new house to be built to the Land Dept. (together with a copy of my Usufruct) and and applied IN MY NAME for planning permission to build my house and received approval

3) I have obtained a Yellow Tabien Baan and my wife a blue one where is states I am the house owner and my wife is the land owner.

4) Water is connected in my name only. (Admittedly electricity was put in my wife's name as the Electricity Co. did not know what a Usufruct was and would not accept it for fear of being in error. I had to agree to allow the electricity in my wife's name or the builder would not have had any supply to build my house with. It does not affect me but actually makes my wife responsible for my electricity bill if I ever defaulted which is not fair to her even though she will never be compromised over this.

I used Isaan Lawyers for my Usufruct and wife's land purchase and was very happy with their advice and service.

Hope this helps

Dave

What a pitty you not read Thai Visa before. Then you would have known that a usufruct from your wife is worth nothing as she can withdraw it anytime she want.

[gdhm]

My wife owns the land.

At the same time of purchase and registration in the Land Dept. my wife and I signed AND registered WITH THE LAND DEPT. a Usufruct in my name. This gave me 100% sole rights of usage for the land during my life time. The land had no building on it.

I afterwards:

1) Contracted in writing with a builder in my name only (witnessed by other including my land owner wife)

2) I submitted an architect plan of my new house to be built to the Land Dept. (together with a copy of my Usufruct) and and applied IN MY NAME for planning permission to build my house and received approval

3) I have obtained a Yellow Tabien Baan and my wife a blue one where is states I am the house owner and my wife is the land owner.

4) Water is connected in my name only. (Admittedly electricity was put in my wife's name as the Electricity Co. did not know what a Usufruct was and would not accept it for fear of being in error. I had to agree to allow the electricity in my wife's name or the builder would not have had any supply to build my house with. It does not affect me but actually makes my wife responsible for my electricity bill if I ever defaulted which is not fair to her even though she will never be compromised over this.

I used Isaan Lawyers for my Usufruct and wife's land purchase and was very happy with their advice and service.

Hope this helps

Dave

What a pitty you not read Thai Visa before. Then you would have known that a Usufruct from your wife is worth nothing as she can withdraw it anytime she want.

Khun Jean

The style of your comment comes across as patronising and sarcastic. I will assume that was not your intention.

The one thing that IS certain is with the ThaiVisa Forum there is a lot of very good accurate advice there are a lot of misguided (and at times total rubbish or 100% contradictions printed on the Forum due to the wide variety of knowledge of contributors.

ThaiVisa is a wonderful Forum and has helped me greatly during the last 2 years but (even if your suggestion that a Usufruct is useless between spouses and easily cancelled which I believe easily cancelling is NOT the case), ThaiVisa is NOT the font of all knowledge (but it has a very good go ) and it is not easy for anybody to sort the "wood from the Trees" at times. Even this thread has opposing or differing views. So which pieces of input does a reader believe when seeking advice. I usually go cautiously with the majority view, or favour where someone known to be a experienced and reliable contributor comments (Lopburi3 to name but one, who I have great trust and respect of what is written and who has helped me with Visa enquiries many times.

I am not sure if your comment is a disguised suggestion that I was poorly advised by Isaan Lawyers so I will put the record straight for all so there is no misunderstanding.

Isaan Lawyers DID mention that there are Thai laws that suggest contracts between spouses MAY be able to be challenged and overturned. So I was aware of this when taking out the Usufruct. Maybe Khun Jean you would like to demonstrate and PROVE where and when ANY such actions have been carried out and succeeded.

As you have made the sweeping statement Usufructs with spouse have are worthless (are you a lawyer) maybe you would like to comment on the following:

1) I believe you have forgotten that if the wife dies and the Usufruct is still in force then it cannot be subsequently cancelled and therefore the husband house owner is fully protected for the rest of his life under the Usufruct.

My understanding is that the Usufruct between spouses is 100% legal and enforceable (UNLESS the spouse wished to try and overturn it -which still has to be granted as it is NOT AUTOMATIC). THAT BEING THE CASE a Usufruct does offer good protection, unless you are suggesting every Thai wife is out to cancel their Usufruct agreements with their husbands which IS NOT the case and will succeed and can afford to legal fees to try to do so.

2) Additionally Thai laws I understand (even if a Usufruct was to fail) do not make it easy for anybody to remove someone from their house when owned by the person living in it (even if the land is not owned but had full rights when the house was built). In fact I have been informed attempted legal removal may be quite difficult, expensive and may fail

Maybe you would like to remark on another clause common within Usufructs namely, the clause giving the Usufructory the express right to grant a 30 year lease to another that is fully protective of the new leaseholder rights even if the Usufructory died the next day, or the Usufruct subsequently was terminated.

That being the case there is the option (should a spouse want to attempt to overturn a Usufruct) to deny them access for 30 years AND more importantly protect oneself by ensuring the lease is with a person (friend or family) who would allow the house owner to continue residing. That 30 years would be sufficient to see many older married Expats beyond this World.

This would be give as much protection as the Max (supported in Thai law) 30 year lease an be granted and one would have had the previous years before any attempt to cancel a Usufruct by a dishonest spouse.

I await your comments with interest

Dave

[BL4u]

.............................. .................

Maybe you would like to remark on another clause common within Usufructs namely, the clause giving the Usufructory the express right to grant a 30 year lease to another that is fully protective of the new leaseholder rights even if the Usufructory died the next day, or the Usufruct subsequently was terminated.

Dave

I know Isaanlawyers or Isaanproperties is promoting this as a sales argument... but is it legally correct? I've asked this a few times in previous posts, how can in practice a usufructuary regsiter a 30 year lease against the land as only the land owner is allowed to do this and any lease exceding 3 years must be registered to be enforceable....? And who will be the lessor in such a registered lease? The usufructuary or the land owner? I'm still waiting for an answer from Isaan lawyers....

[gdhm]

.............................. .................

Maybe you would like to remark on another clause common within Usufructs namely, the clause giving the Usufructory the express right to grant a 30 year lease to another that is fully protective of the new leaseholder rights even if the Usufructory died the next day, or the Usufruct subsequently was terminated.

Dave

I know Isaanlawyers or Isaanproperties is promoting this as a sales argument... but is it legally correct? I've asked this a few times in previous posts, how can in practice a usufructuary regsiter a 30 year lease against the land as only the land owner is allowed to do this and any lease exceding 3 years must be registered to be enforceable....? And who will be the lessor in such a registered lease? The usufructuary or the land owner? I'm still waiting for an answer from Isaan lawyers....

Hi BL4u ,

Not just Isaan Lawyers

but Siam Legal

http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/thail...rty-outlook.php

AND

SUNBELT Legal Advisors

http://www.sunbeltlegaladvisors.com/Thailand-Usufruct.php

both suggest the same thing.

Hope this helps

Dave

Regards

Edited June 17, 2008 by gdhm

[BL4u]

.............................. .................

Maybe you would like to remark on another clause common within Usufructs namely, the clause giving the Usufructory the express right to grant a 30 year lease to another that is fully protective of the new leaseholder rights even if the Usufructory died the next day, or the Usufruct subsequently was terminated.

Dave

I know Isaanlawyers or Isaanproperties is promoting this as a sales argument... but is it legally correct? I've asked this a few times in previous posts, how can in practice a usufructuary regsiter a 30 year lease against the land as only the land owner is allowed to do this and any lease exceding 3 years must be registered to be enforceable....? And who will be the lessor in such a registered lease? The usufructuary or the land owner? I'm still waiting for an answer from Isaan lawyers....

Hi BL4u ,

Not just Isaan Lawyers

but Siam Legal

http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/thail...rty-outlook.php

AND

SUNBELT Legal Advisors

http://www.sunbeltlegaladvisors.com/Thailand-Usufruct.php

both suggest the same thing.

Hope this helps

Dave

Regards

I know they say this on their websites.... If they were posting it on this forum I would ask them too. Still, waiting for an answer.