Its Not About Culture, Its About Being Human

[barky]

I think a lot of the replys here are a sad reflection of todays society...dont get involved, nothing to do with you....one reason police these days tell victims to scream "Fire" or something rather than "Help Me" if their alone being attacked...because people wont come to look help you otherwise...

And yes the whole "Culture" thing is a BS argument....female genital mutilation is some peoples culture, slavery is some peoples culture, beheadings, stoning etc etc...all someones culture, does that mean we have to just accept it?? Cultures change over time, mostly for the better...the more people help promote such change the quicker it will arrive...never just accept "culture" as an argument over human decency..

No artfuld, we don't have to accept it. It's bad, really bad, we all agree, BUT is it worth losing your life over it? We are in Thailand. We aliens and our standards and ideals don't count. No, really they don't. Unless you've got a death wish don't get involved if it has nothing to do with you. otherwise you will be the loser and regret it forever. I understand this may go against every decent standard that generally we westeners live by.

[onzestan]

I think a lot of the replys here are a sad reflection of todays society...dont get involved, nothing to do with you....one reason police these days tell victims to scream "Fire" or something rather than "Help Me" if their alone being attacked...because people wont come to look help you otherwise...

And yes the whole "Culture" thing is a BS argument....female genital mutilation is some peoples culture, slavery is some peoples culture, beheadings, stoning etc etc...all someones culture, does that mean we have to just accept it?? Cultures change over time, mostly for the better...the more people help promote such change the quicker it will arrive...never just accept "culture" as an argument over human decency..

Exactly !!!!

onzestan

[way2muchcoffee]

The people of Germany did nothing when the Nazi's came to power and began a campaign of crime against many of it's citizens. I believe you had a moral imperative to stop the attacker. It is nothing to do with culture. I also believe that you completely lost your moral high ground by going back out to look for the four guys.

[barky]

3) Yet they will get involved when someone else tries to intervene.

Needs to be changed to:

3) Yet they will get involved when a westerner tries to intervene.

This is exactly what I said earlier

[burman]

Usually in these heat of the moment situations your best bet it to get to the nearest internet cafe and seek immediate advice on the thaivisa forum.

[favre360]

I really believe if you do the right thing you'll be safe. Its karma man.

[taxexile]

youll be safe enough , in your next life.

[barky]

The people of Germany did nothing when the Nazi's came to power and began a campaign of crime against many of it's citizens. I believe you had a moral imperative to stop the attacker. It is nothing to do with culture. I also believe that you completely lost your moral high ground by going back out to look for the four guys.

Yes of course you're right, but the will to survive trumps virtually everything.

[micksterbs]

Usually in these heat of the moment situations your best bet it to get to the nearest internet cafe and seek immediate advice on the thaivisa forum.

Corker!

[percy2]

You should have roundhouse kicked the lot of them back to the stone age.

I hope sensei bitch slapped you for your failure!

Thats the funniest thing I've read or heard today.

Thank you.

Cheers

[Prakanong]

Usually in these heat of the moment situations your best bet it to get to the nearest internet cafe and seek immediate advice on the thaivisa forum.

Corker!

It is - I am still giggling

[GuestHouse]

I take a slightly different slant on this.

Firstly the reactions of the OP are understandable, and while not wise, I would ask how many here have reacted to situations that are fast evolving in front of us in a manner that later (or remote) quiet contemplation would advise otherwise?

So please, while the OP's actions might not be the wisest, he is in my eyes pretty well blameless of any real fault (other than being human).

The second issue is to what extent should our reactions be determined by our environment? We are all of us conditioned with our own values, across the many cultures/religions/backgrounds we come from there is a core set of values we more or less all share. Not beating the sh1t out of women is one, responding to someone in need of life saving assistance is another.

It’s a very old challenge 'To do more than is required of us and less than is allowed'

And I might add it’s a preposition that lead to the very swift murder of the first recorded person to give it voice.

Indeed it is often said that what goes between Thai men and their wives is nobody else's business and if you see a Thai guy beating the sh1t out of a woman don't get involved 'that's the way things are here'.

Well yes it is, until someone says NO or STOP

I have a great deal of admiration for people who do say enough is enough, it’s precisely how we all of us got the rights and privileges we all enjoy.

[garro]

The op said;

Im two seconds away from giving this cowardly lowlife the beating that'll take him closer to death than hes ever been. I want him to feel exactly what its like to have no one there to help him when suddenly 4 of the guys who have been watching the ordeal rip me off and throw me down across the street.

Trying to prevent somebody from attacking a woman is one thing.

This is something else. At least in my mind.

[way2muchcoffee]

The op said;

Im two seconds away from giving this cowardly lowlife the beating that'll take him closer to death than hes ever been. I want him to feel exactly what its like to have no one there to help him when suddenly 4 of the guys who have been watching the ordeal rip me off and throw me down across the street.

Trying to prevent somebody from attacking a woman is one thing.

This is something else. At least in my mind.

Very good point.

[percy2]

I take a slightly different slant on this.

Firstly the reactions of the OP are understandable, and while not wise, I would ask how many here have reacted to situations that are fast evolving in front of us in a manner that later (or remote) quiet contemplation would advise otherwise?

So please, while the OP's actions might not be the wisest, he is in my eyes pretty well blameless of any real fault (other than being human).

The second issue is to what extent should our reactions be determined by our environment? We are all of us conditioned with our own values, across the many cultures/religions/backgrounds we come from there is a core set of values we more or less all share. Not beating the sh1t out of women is one, responding to someone in need of life saving assistance is another.

It’s a very old challenge 'To do more than is required of us and less than is allowed'

And I might add it’s a preposition that lead to the very swift murder of the first recorded person to give it voice.

Indeed it is often said that what goes between Thai men and their wives is nobody else's business and if you see a Thai guy beating the sh1t out of a woman don't get involved 'that's the way things are here'.

Well yes it is, until someone says NO or STOP

I have a great deal of admiration for people who do say enough is enough, it’s precisely how we all of us got the rights and privileges we all enjoy.

GH's posts are always well thought out and worth a read.

Cheers

[barky]

I take a slightly different slant on this.

Firstly the reactions of the OP are understandable, and while not wise, I would ask how many here have reacted to situations that are fast evolving in front of us in a manner that later (or remote) quiet contemplation would advise otherwise?

So please, while the OP's actions might not be the wisest, he is in my eyes pretty well blameless of any real fault (other than being human).

The second issue is to what extent should our reactions be determined by our environment? We are all of us conditioned with our own values, across the many cultures/religions/backgrounds we come from there is a core set of values we more or less all share. Not beating the sh1t out of women is one, responding to someone in need of life saving assistance is another.

It's a very old challenge 'To do more than is required of us and less than is allowed'

And I might add it's a preposition that lead to the very swift murder of the first recorded person to give it voice.

Indeed it is often said that what goes between Thai men and their wives is nobody else's business and if you see a Thai guy beating the sh1t out of a woman don't get involved 'that's the way things are here'.

Well yes it is, until someone says NO or STOP

I have a great deal of admiration for people who do say enough is enough, it's precisely how we all of us got the rights and privileges we all enjoy.

Yeah your right, instincively we know you are. But your in Saudi Arabia. You are not running the risk of getting your head kicked in by a gang of cowardly Thais who undoutedly would all recieve medals of honour from the police and the community at large.

[mellow1]

Well favre 360, you can't say you haven't learned anything. The next time you see someone beating another person into a coma, just ignore it, especially if its a Farang. Mind your own business and enjoy the spectacle.

[barky]

Well favre 360, you can't say you haven't learned anything. The next time you see someone beating another person into a coma, just ignore it, especially if its a Farang. Mind your own business and enjoy the spectacle.

Providing it's not you getting the kicking I guess.

[SoCal]

I understand it, but the problem I see is meeting violence with violence.

Personally I would have yelled at the guy and berated him, to get him to stop attacking the woman. Then if he wanted to take it to the next level with me, then that's fine too.

If he didn't attack me, then I would next try to get the woman help.

Fighting with a Thai is pretty stupid, but doing nothing is pretty pathetic.

[favre360]

The op said;

Im two seconds away from giving this cowardly lowlife the beating that'll take him closer to death than hes ever been. I want him to feel exactly what its like to have no one there to help him when suddenly 4 of the guys who have been watching the ordeal rip me off and throw me down across the street.

Trying to prevent somebody from attacking a woman is one thing.

This is something else. At least in my mind.

What do you think I was going to do after he was no longer a threat......walk away? I've been in 2 fights in my life and i'm not an agressor, the end goal was to help this woman not beat the crap outta this guy and leave.

[GuestHouse]

Yeah your right, instincively we know you are. But your in Saudi Arabia. You are not running the risk of getting your head kicked in by a gang of cowardly Thais who undoutedly would all recieve medals of honour from the police and the community at large.

Yes I agree, but that's why I admire people who do step up to the plate - They do exists.

[clausewitz]

To the OP. You did the right thing and then some.

[haybilly]

some of you guys are amazing and clueless. always the Rambo complaint. a guy tries to help and now he is the culprit

picture this....the psycho is standing over his convulsing girlfriend. now being the nice guy you bend over her while he is still standing there, all psyched up, what do you guys really think is going to happen. let me clue you in. the psycho with beat you over the head with whatever is handy and now you can no longer be of any help to the girl as you will be laying next to her and in a bad way. you must get rid of the threat before you can help anyone or there will eventually be a crown laying there

who wants to be in the situation but there it is. take away the threat and then help

flame away boys but use a bit of common sense first

Whilst I can see the arguments on both side and, having been in Thailand for some years, I now tend to follow the direction of the folk who are dissing the OP--however, not that many years ago and, probably most saliently in another country, I did exactly the same thing--so, OK, he was lucky not to get into very serious trouble and in this country where 20 cowards will join the Thai's side whatever the reason, I still can't help feeling some empathy with his rsponse-Thai men are very good at hitting their women-- generalisation, I know, but often true.

[jdinasia]

I'd agree with sbk's reply to a large degree.

But cut the guy a little slack at least he was prepared to get involved and do something. Bear in mind it was probably heat of the moment too. It might be OK for sbk or another woman to immediately attend to the woman. I think if a guy tried to do that, though, there's a very strong chance he would be attacked while doing so. Hence clearing the immediate danger out of the way first mightn't have been such a bad idea.

Shame that people have chosen so far to criticise and focus on the OPs actions. The bigger issues really are the way the guy beat up his wife. Nobody did anything. But when someone does get involved, suddenly 4 people do feel the urge to get involved.

For me you've got to question more:

1) The Thai guy's actions in beating up his wife

2) 4 people standing by and doing nothing while a woman gets assualted.

3) Yet they will get involved when someone else tries to intervene.

4) Sort of implies it's OK for a husband to beat up his wife in Thailand. Actually this also seems to extend to anyone of higher status beating up someone lower

5) Reaction and comment that you don't get involved in something that is wrong, unless it's your own family.

BTW OP, Going back later looking for a fight though is just plain stupid. Finding yourself in the middle of a situation is one thing. Going looking for a situation is completely different. Unfortunately your own stupid behaviour has sort of undermined what otherwise would have been more interesting points/issues for discussion.

For me the 5 points above are the ones more worthy of discussion...

umm no

1) Guy hits woman(wife? pro? etc... who knows)

2)Boozed up westerner jumps in and hits guy and damages guy's vehicle

3)Westerner is seen hitting guy and gets tossed down (remember .. boozed up westerner .. with a sense of self-righteousness that is astounding)

4)When problem is resolved the guys that knocked the boozed up westerner down do NOT keep kicking or beating him, they saunter off

5)another boozed up westerner joins the hunt .. instead of getting another westerner beatdown the guys leave.

I would have checked on the woman then called ems .. end of story

Being rambo --- particularly in Pattaya .. is just plain stupid

[garro]

The way I see it favre360, giving someone a 'beating that'll take him closer to death than hes ever been' seems a bit more than removing a threat. So does going looking for trouble afterwards.

Now some people might be impressed by your actions, but I feel that 2 people in a coma wouldn't be better than one - even if the guy deserved it.

Edited March 20, 2008 by garro

[haybilly]

Usually in these heat of the moment situations your best bet it to get to the nearest internet cafe and seek immediate advice on the thaivisa forum.

Nice one--that lightened it all up a bit--was all getting a bit too much.

[Maigo6]

Last time I was in Pattaya just before I went offshore to work ( 2 Months ago ), I was in a Bar and a Thai guy was having a real go at his Girlfriend, he even picked up a bottle at one stage...he is a friend of mine and so is she.

It's a terrible thing to witness but what can you do, to get physical is asking for trouble yourself, you have to be very diplomatic and try your best to judge the situation and ensure your own well being before charging in.

The people involved will usually be back all hunky dory again the next day anyway, so be careful when getting involved.

In the case I speak of, 10 minutes later, they where cuddling each other and that was the end of it.

[twschw]

What do you think I was going to do after he was no longer a threat......walk away? I've been in 2 fights in my life and i'm not an agressor, the end goal was to help this woman not beat the crap outta this guy and leave.

But you didn't meet your goal and there was no way you were going to. You are undoubtably a brave man but you are also extremely naive.

[lioness]

Your a true hero sport... someone close this thread please.

[taxexile]

years ago , i heard a commotion outside my in laws shophouse in bangkok , i looked out of the window and in the street was a large thai man with a 2x4 plank of wood beating the sh1t out of a young woman who was already prone on the ground.

i got the red mist and went hurtling down the stairs and tried to rush out into the street , my inlaws were quickly closing the doors so as not to witness the goings on out there , i rushed through and yelled at the man to stop , self preservation stopped me from attacking him , he was bigger and uglier than me.

he looked up and hurled the piece of wood at me , the woman quickly scurried and then ran off bleeding.

my father in law rushed out , apologised and waied the man and dragged me back into the house.

"but he was hitting a woman , he could of killed her" i said.

over the next hour it was explained to me that that man was the "police approved" unofficial enforcer for our soi , he sold the drugs , ran the card games , and decided who came into the soi and who didnt. he always carried a gun and if the police wanted anything done , he would do it. he often took the law into his own hands and the police never touched him , the woman that he was hitting had come uninvited into his territory to sell ya ba and when she returned after one warning , he set upon her with the plank. because of him , there hadnt been a robbery in the soi for years

i was told that i would have to , after a meeting between my mother in law and him ,go to his house , with a bottle of fine whisky as a gift and apologise for making him lose face in the street by yelling at him. if he wouldnt accept that then i would have to leave the house and not come back , there would be nothing they could do to protect me.

in the end they explained to him that i was just another idealistic foreigner with no idea of how life is actually lived here and he told them i would not be hurt or have to leave. had i not been associated with that soi , ie. just a passer by , things would have been different though.

my father in law , a man who would give his life if anyone threatened a family member , told me to "never , but never get involved in anything in this country that is not your business , they will kill you as easy as they kill mosquitos , and nobody will help you. this is thailand and as a foreigner you will die in the gutter. when you see something , just close your eyes and cross the road , this is not england or france where things are fair , only get involved on the street if you are prepared to pay a heavy price."

thats my one and only experience of 'having a go'

make of it what you will