The Londoner & The Office

[ClaytonSeymour]

I was shocked to learn from kiakaha that the sun will burn out and earth will die by the end of the day, so in preparation I have been chain smoking my way through the very best of my kreteks. Ive also hotboxed my apartment by turning off the air con and sealing the doors, although my cats aren't too happy about it and nor is my 4 month old daughter- figured I would get her onto the good stuff early in case she ends up liking L&M or some other nonsense.

I actually find it disappointing that someone could joke about such matters, especially smoking in front of your 4 month old daughter.

My late father smoked in front of myself & two brothers; I despise him for it. He died of a smoking related illness & were it not for the fact he was from the 'smoking is cool generation' - I'd say som nom na. For anyone of my own & more recent generations, I certainly would say som nom na & that includes my own brother, who still persists in this vile habit despite my anger & disappointment.

[mrtoad]

Yawn.

Yes, Clayton thats what we love about you.

Ok, I want to clarify a few points.

1) My reference to your beliefs on the Mentally Ill, which you say are irrelevant. This is what you said "If the mentally ill commit murder they should be executed as per sound of mind murderers - equal privileges. Executing a criminal has three purposes; punishment, deterrent & most important of all, protection of the multitude."

Here we go, another contadiction, you advocate equal privaliges for sentencing people to death, but you don't advocate a bar choosing wether to be a smoking or non smoking establishment. Two entirely separate issues that need to addressed and approached on their own merits.

I add further, in your response to Geriatric kid "3. So basically you are suggesting the accused is a psychopathic killer? That would make him mentally ill and probably incapable of knowing right from wrong. IMO all the more reason to put him to death. Thailand like many other countries has allowances for those accused that are mentally infirm. Seymour (Highlighted) I stand by my opinion.

I find that you have a low tolerence to anything that you feel doesn't fit in your utopian society. Most Mentally Ill people who go on to commit crimes are jst as much a victim, a victim of the state who leave them to their own devices. Whislt I agree of the need for protection of the public, I feel that executing someone who may not have been aware of his actions is pretty dam_n extreme. As you believe in an interventionist policy, then do you advocate the execution of potential murderers as well? Well you've now taken this way off topic, anyhow, yes, in some cases I would execute potential murderers i.e. terrorists convicted of plotting to blow up airliners.

2) My reference regarding McDonalds. I 'd like to cklarify that one. It was said mainly tounge in cheek at UG, who will certainly get the joke. I'm sorry that you missed it. However, to counter, there is a serious point to it as well. McDonalds food has been found to be particulalry unhealthy, along with a lot of other fast foods. Obesity is likely to be the number one cause of death in the coming years, and of course this will have an impact on society as well, although not maybe as obvious as smoking. As an interventionist, who believes that the Government has a duty of care to it's people, then are you suggesting that establishments which serve unhealthy food should be closed as well? Discussing obesity really belongs in another thread. I actually look after body & train practically every day & I do believe that individuals should look after themselves, though I wouldn't go as far as denying someone the occasional burger, which from time to time I eat myself. The problem with linking burgers to this thread is that there's no such thing as passive burger eating. By all means open a new thread on fast foods & obesity, I'll be happy to debate this & share some of my thoughts.

The point I am trying to make, is that adults should have a choice in what they decide to do with there bodies. If someone accepts a smoking establishmernt that is fine. If you don't like it, go to somewhere else that does. It's all about informed choice, and the only thing the governemnt should do is provide the facts to people and let them decide.

Not when innocents need protection. Should governments merely advise drivers not to drink & drive, not to drive at excessive speed & so on? At some point there has to be legislation.

3) As you live in the UK, what is the biggest danger when going out? Smoking or being glassed by a drunken moron. I think we can probably guess the answear to that one. Well I haven't been glassed yet, but I most certainly have been exposed the dangers of passive smoking - my first experience of which was a result of my father's nicotine addiction.

You obviously enjoy going out for a pint and something to eat, which most of us do, but how will you feel when the choices of establishments becomes less and less and you're only choice is having a microwaved Wetherspoons meal? I'd like to clarify though Clayton, that I also believe that eating areas/ resteraunts should be non-smoking. Good to hear this, but I can assure you there's a good number of smokers who have no such consideration whatsoever. I also don't want to see the death of the traditional pub being rep[laced by crappy franchises and chains, which is whjat is happening back in the UK. Maybe this another agenda? Well, my local actually is a Wetherspoons.

4) Market Forces; Time and again campaign groups have suggested that Smoking Bans increase business, and have used this as onme of their main arguments in the implementation of the ban. This is clearly disingenious, as figures in the UK suggest differently, and I believe that CAMRA are now looking at reviewing their stance. Certainly bars in BKK have been hit. I was speaking with a Bar owner who has enforced the ban the other evening, nice bloke, nice bar- he reckons that he has seen a significant drop in takings since it came in. I also undersatand that other establishments have the same problems, hence some are now not enforcing it. How about the people who make a living directly and indirectly from bars? What happens when bars close and people lose their jobs? Were do they go? In Thialand they can't just scoot off to the dole office. Well this is what I was referring to when I talked about the bereavement process. What we are seeing is the denial stage, so yes, the will be a spike in the drop in takings - once people have moved to the acceptance stage then I suggest we'll see a recovery.

5) Hypocrisy: You have said time and time again that Governewmnts have a duty. Fine, the simple answear is to ban smoking out right, along with the sales of tobacco. If thery do that, no problem. But they wont, for financial reasons. The Govt are happy to take taxes from smokers, but they dont want smokers giving revenue to other establishments.

I've already sugested this myself & yes, if governments were to impose a total ban I would support it.

6) Smoking is bad; I think that it is irrefutable that smoking is bad, clealry it increases the chances of contracting Lung Cancer, Throat Cancer, Emphasima etc, etc. Alcohol is also bad in that it does pretty much the same, other than we are looking at other organs. If drunk in excess, though I accept there are issues i.e. social problems that do need to be addressed. Unhealthy food is bad, cars are bad ,in fact living is bad. Of course, but the topic's smoking.

Now, the big problem here is, how much information are we really being given about the effects of secondary smoking, is some of the information being supressed to suit governments agendas? I suspect that this is very much the case and this little article make give an inkling; Well I actually believe that secondary smoking is bad for you & most medical studies would confirm this.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fd20061112t2.html Anyway, as always it's worth having a debate. I've obviously got too much time on my hands this week. I wish I could say the same, I'm actually in the middle of a twelve hour shift, but I felt that honouring your post with a response was the correct thing to do.

Anyway, I'm off for a burger and chips cooked in lard, 12 pints of beer and a pack of fags, and I'll walk home just to inhale all the vehicle fumes. Enjoy yourself, just don't smoke your fags in fron of non-smokers, especially children.

Yawn.

Clayton, we'll agree to disagree, but enjoy your twelve hour shift. I'm glad I don't have to do those anymore.

Edited April 8, 2008 by mrtoad

[ClaytonSeymour]

Yawn.

Yes, Clayton thats what we love about you.

Ok, I want to clarify a few points.

1) My reference to your beliefs on the Mentally Ill, which you say are irrelevant. This is what you said "If the mentally ill commit murder they should be executed as per sound of mind murderers - equal privileges. Executing a criminal has three purposes; punishment, deterrent & most important of all, protection of the multitude."

Here we go, another contadiction, you advocate equal privaliges for sentencing people to death, but you don't advocate a bar choosing wether to be a smoking or non smoking establishment. Two entirely separate issues that need to addressed and approached on their own merits.

I add further, in your response to Geriatric kid "3. So basically you are suggesting the accused is a psychopathic killer? That would make him mentally ill and probably incapable of knowing right from wrong. IMO all the more reason to put him to death. Thailand like many other countries has allowances for those accused that are mentally infirm. Seymour (Highlighted) I stand by my opinion.

I find that you have a low tolerence to anything that you feel doesn't fit in your utopian society. Most Mentally Ill people who go on to commit crimes are jst as much a victim, a victim of the state who leave them to their own devices. Whislt I agree of the need for protection of the public, I feel that executing someone who may not have been aware of his actions is pretty dam_n extreme. As you believe in an interventionist policy, then do you advocate the execution of potential murderers as well? Well you've now taken this way off topic, anyhow, yes, in some cases I would execute potential murderers i.e. terrorists convicted of plotting to blow up airliners.

2) My reference regarding McDonalds. I 'd like to cklarify that one. It was said mainly tounge in cheek at UG, who will certainly get the joke. I'm sorry that you missed it. However, to counter, there is a serious point to it as well. McDonalds food has been found to be particulalry unhealthy, along with a lot of other fast foods. Obesity is likely to be the number one cause of death in the coming years, and of course this will have an impact on society as well, although not maybe as obvious as smoking. As an interventionist, who believes that the Government has a duty of care to it's people, then are you suggesting that establishments which serve unhealthy food should be closed as well? Discussing obesity really belongs in another thread. I actually look after body & train practically every day & I do believe that individuals should look after themselves, though I wouldn't go as far as denying someone the occasional burger, which from time to time I eat myself. The problem with linking burgers to this thread is that there's no such thing as passive burger eating. By all means open a new thread on fast foods & obesity, I'll be happy to debate this & share some of my thoughts.

The point I am trying to make, is that adults should have a choice in what they decide to do with there bodies. If someone accepts a smoking establishmernt that is fine. If you don't like it, go to somewhere else that does. It's all about informed choice, and the only thing the governemnt should do is provide the facts to people and let them decide.

Not when innocents need protection. Should governments merely advise drivers not to drink & drive, not to drive at excessive speed & so on? At some point there has to be legislation.

3) As you live in the UK, what is the biggest danger when going out? Smoking or being glassed by a drunken moron. I think we can probably guess the answear to that one. Well I haven't been glassed yet, but I most certainly have been exposed the dangers of passive smoking - my first experience of which was a result of my father's nicotine addiction.

You obviously enjoy going out for a pint and something to eat, which most of us do, but how will you feel when the choices of establishments becomes less and less and you're only choice is having a microwaved Wetherspoons meal? I'd like to clarify though Clayton, that I also believe that eating areas/ resteraunts should be non-smoking. Good to hear this, but I can assure you there's a good number of smokers who have no such consideration whatsoever. I also don't want to see the death of the traditional pub being rep[laced by crappy franchises and chains, which is whjat is happening back in the UK. Maybe this another agenda? Well, my local actually is a Wetherspoons.

4) Market Forces; Time and again campaign groups have suggested that Smoking Bans increase business, and have used this as onme of their main arguments in the implementation of the ban. This is clearly disingenious, as figures in the UK suggest differently, and I believe that CAMRA are now looking at reviewing their stance. Certainly bars in BKK have been hit. I was speaking with a Bar owner who has enforced the ban the other evening, nice bloke, nice bar- he reckons that he has seen a significant drop in takings since it came in. I also undersatand that other establishments have the same problems, hence some are now not enforcing it. How about the people who make a living directly and indirectly from bars? What happens when bars close and people lose their jobs? Were do they go? In Thialand they can't just scoot off to the dole office. Well this is what I was referring to when I talked about the bereavement process. What we are seeing is the denial stage, so yes, the will be a spike in the drop in takings - once people have moved to the acceptance stage then I suggest we'll see a recovery.

5) Hypocrisy: You have said time and time again that Governewmnts have a duty. Fine, the simple answear is to ban smoking out right, along with the sales of tobacco. If thery do that, no problem. But they wont, for financial reasons. The Govt are happy to take taxes from smokers, but they dont want smokers giving revenue to other establishments.

I've already sugested this myself & yes, if governments were to impose a total ban I would support it.

6) Smoking is bad; I think that it is irrefutable that smoking is bad, clealry it increases the chances of contracting Lung Cancer, Throat Cancer, Emphasima etc, etc. Alcohol is also bad in that it does pretty much the same, other than we are looking at other organs. If drunk in excess, though I accept there are issues i.e. social problems that do need to be addressed. Unhealthy food is bad, cars are bad ,in fact living is bad. Of course, but the topic's smoking.

Now, the big problem here is, how much information are we really being given about the effects of secondary smoking, is some of the information being supressed to suit governments agendas? I suspect that this is very much the case and this little article make give an inkling; Well I actually believe that secondary smoking is bad for you & most medical studies would confirm this.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fd20061112t2.html Anyway, as always it's worth having a debate. I've obviously got too much time on my hands this week. I wish I could say the same, I'm actually in the middle of a twelve hour shift, but I felt that honouring your post with a response was the correct thing to do.

Anyway, I'm off for a burger and chips cooked in lard, 12 pints of beer and a pack of fags, and I'll walk home just to inhale all the vehicle fumes. Enjoy yourself, just don't smoke your fags in fron of non-smokers, especially children.

Yawn.

Clayton, we'll agree to disagree, but enjoy your twelve hour shift. I'm glad I don't have to do those anymore.

Agreed, but I'm certainly not enjoying my 12 hour shift!

[mrtoad]

Agreed, but I'm certainly not enjoying my 12 hour shift!

If you did, then I'd be very worried.

Edited April 8, 2008 by mrtoad

[kiakaha]

I was shocked to learn from kiakaha that the sun will burn out and earth will die by the end of the day

Dont believe i quoted end of day, but i will state that you have about 7.6 billion years left.

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/27/0252238

[JimmyCA]

My disagreement is not for or against smoking or for or against the evidence on second hand smoke, but the astounding willingness of people to allow government to intrude into every aspect of their life if its wrapped up in a scare or a hate of some kind.

Well we are talking about smoking in bars here. I offered you a question about 'is it right for me to restrict others freedom by letting them breathe my second hand smoke' but in a typically rebellious student fashion you have ignored a debate that you are not comfortable with and gone back to the familiar slogan shouting anti government speeches.

Which I have to tell you are not as shocking or surprising to us as you might think. We've all read 1984 you know.

So stop stroking the ego, and get back to answering my question about second hand smoke.

Also still waiting to hear why you called me a straw man? Another shouted slogan you can't back up when questioned upon it?

Someone's opinion about second hand smoke is just an opinion ..... and a meaningless opinion.

Fact is the majority of people do not want to go out where people flaunt their dirty habit of smoking

Due to tradition of tolerating some peoples dirty inconsiderate habit of smoking in public a law is required to reverse this behavior. Without the law the dirty smokers will continue to infringe on the public the same as the pollution spewing dirty old buses pollute the city. These polluting busses will also be phased out BY LAW.

The long and short of it is smokers are pigs.

[justSumGai]

I have just returned from the UK where I went to the closing night of my old local. The landlord told me that the last few months had killed the trade and that 2 of the oldest pubs in Twickenham were also closing down (one has been there since the early 1700's)......

So now NO ONE can go to such places? Seems to ME like it's an unspoken war on public drinking. It's bad enough that it seems non smokers wish to take over such places putting out smokers, but then it turns out they don't want to go to them anyway? Powers that be need to get a CLUE. Sometimes idealogy should stay JUST an idea.

[Indo-Siam]

I wonder if - back in the days when the last opium dens were being shut down - the newspapers of the day were full of complaints from opium afficianados, lamenting the loss of their relaxing, enjoyable pastime.

I'm sure that the proprietors of opium dens lost a lot of business, and screamed bloody murder.

The movement of the world for the past 150 years (at least) has been toward shuffling the junkies, winos, and now the nicotine addicts, off into the gutter. It can't be pleasant - for either the addicts, or for their enablers. But the tend is clear - over long periods of time, over diverse geographies, and over multiple types of addictive compulsions.

Indo-Siam

[Ulysses G.]

The long and short of it is smokers are pigs.

What debating society did you go to?

[kiakaha]

The long and short of it is smokers are pigs.

What debating society did you go to?

mass-debating perhaps

[mrtoad]

The long and short of it is smokers are pigs.

What debating society did you go to?

mass-debating perhaps

He probably came first in the class too.

[JimmyCA]

The long and short of it is smokers are pigs.

What debating society did you go to?

I have applied to several but so far not accepted

[OxfordWill]

Actually its more like 7.8, but you're not alone- new scientist misunderstood the calculations.

The only sensible post in this whole thread was whoever said it was about looking forward to the next generation. Grade A, top of the class.

I love it how people make these public issues personal. It always boils down to someone saying a smoker is a pig and the pig oinking on about personal liberties! All great fun. And pointless.

[Plus]

Living in suburbs, the only time I smoke is when I go to Londoner, my old pub of choice, I do it about once a year.

Would be interesting to see what's it like without smoking.

Is the Beefeater girl still manning the door? Is that German Peter still the brewmaster? I understand David the boss has moved to Pattaya.

[marquess]

Is the Office the one where they have the girls in long white evening dresses? Haven't been there for ages, but if pubs are going to be squeaky clean like hospitals, then what is the point of going there? I am a non smoker but I would rather be in a place with smoke and atmosphere than in one with just a few old men and no atmosphere.

[mrtoad]

Is the Office the one where they have the girls in long whiteevening dresses? Haven't been there for ages, but if pubs are going to be squeaky clean like hospitals, then what is the point of going there? I am a non smoker but I would rather be in a place with smoke and atmosphere than in one with just a few old men and no atmosphere.[/size][/font]

You are correct, in that it is the place that has the girls in evening dress, although that's not every night. Haven't been in there for a while, as the last time I was in there it was really pretty dead, and I'd noticed that it had become a bit quieter over the past couple of months. Shame really, as it's always been one of my favourite bars, good for watching sport, good food and the girls in general are polite and not of the hassling type.

[JimmyCA]

Is the Office the one where they have the girls in long white evening dresses? Haven't been there for ages, but if pubs are going to be squeaky clean like hospitals, then what is the point of going there? I am a non smoker but I would rather be in a place with smoke and atmosphere than in one with just a few old men and no atmosphere.[/size][/font]

You sound like a smoker

[marquess]

Is the Office the one where they have the girls in long white evening dresses? Haven't been there for ages, but if pubs are going to be squeaky clean like hospitals, then what is the point of going there? I am a non smoker but I would rather be in a place with smoke and atmosphere than in one with just a few old men and no atmosphere.

You sound like a smoker

No just a man who likes going out and enjoying girls and a drink or two, which usually seem to go hand in hand with smoke, which helps add similitude to the occluded atmosphere in which such things are best enjoyed.

[kiakaha]

Is the Office the one where they have the girls in long white evening dresses? Haven't been there for ages, but if pubs are going to be squeaky clean like hospitals, then what is the point of going there? I am a non smoker but I would rather be in a place with smoke and atmosphere than in one with just a few old men and no atmosphere.

Yep..hookers in robes (and I'm not talking about the rugby kind)

Nice big screens though.

[Pushit]

Ask any Thai person and they will tell you business sentiment is not good across the board.

In addition the BIB are going to be extracting even more tea money from entertainment venues to leave the smokers alone so up goes the price of your pint.

[CCCP]

Wednesday's still seem to be a big party at Londoner's. The bar allows smoking and drinking out on the patio. The smoking patrons took the party outside when I was there. I personally stopped going to those bars for one reason....price. Tourists can pay western prices for food and drink, but locals take their money elsewhere. The price increases in tourist areas have gotten ridiculous.

I went into the Londoner for something to eat in January looked at the prices on the boards and walked straight back out again, the prices were more expensive then many pubs in England, i also hear that the foods as bad as British pub grub.

Agreed, Been in once, was also the last.

Good Night and thank you.

[marquess]

Wednesday's still seem to be a big party at Londoner's. The bar allows smoking and drinking out on the patio. The smoking patrons took the party outside when I was there. I personally stopped going to those bars for one reason....price. Tourists can pay western prices for food and drink, but locals take their money elsewhere. The price increases in tourist areas have gotten ridiculous.

I went into the Londoner for something to eat in January looked at the prices on the boards and walked straight back out again, the prices were more expensive then many pubs in England, i also hear that the foods as bad as British pub grub.

Agreed, Been in once, was also the last.

Good Night and thank you.

I usually only go there on Wednesday nights, when it is buy one get one free, I think that you really have to be a genuine expat to really enjoy that place on any other night!

[ThaiPauly]

The Londoner used to serve the best Chili Con Carne in Bangkok.

I went in there last week and ordered it for the first time in 4 years, it was bluddy awful, far too salty, tasteless and it looked like a child's portion, they were also charging 110 baht for a Tomaoto Juice.

I am not surprised its dead in there, I won't be going back anytime soon.

But I did enjoy a smoke outside

[kiakaha]

The Londoner used to serve the best Chili Con Carne in Bangkok.

I went in there last week and ordered it for the first time in 4 years, it was bluddy awful, far too salty, tasteless and it looked like a child's portion, they were also charging 110 baht for a Tomaoto Juice.

I am not surprised its dead in there, I won't be going back anytime soon.

But I did enjoy a smoke outside

Black Swan just up the road do a nice Chilli.

[mrtoad]

The Londoner used to serve the best Chili Con Carne in Bangkok.

I went in there last week and ordered it for the first time in 4 years, it was bluddy awful, far too salty, tasteless and it looked like a child's portion, they were also charging 110 baht for a Tomaoto Juice.

I am not surprised its dead in there, I won't be going back anytime soon.

But I did enjoy a smoke outside

I ordered food from there last night to be delivered, in the past the food has always been good, but last night I was very dissapointed. I will look elsehwere in the future when looking for Western food. I'll agree with TP, as the Chilli was crap, the Shepards Pie was very average and Pork knuckle was so, so. Shame, as I have always thought the food was good, but last night............Profits, before product.

[Captain Chaos]

The Londoner used to serve the best Chili Con Carne in Bangkok.

I went in there last week and ordered it for the first time in 4 years, it was bluddy awful, far too salty, tasteless and it looked like a child's portion, they were also charging 110 baht for a Tomaoto Juice.

I am not surprised its dead in there, I won't be going back anytime soon.

But I did enjoy a smoke outside

I ordered food from there last night to be delivered, in the past the food has always been good, but last night I was very dissapointed. I will look elsehwere in the future when looking for Western food. I'll agree with TP, as the Chilli was crap, the Shepards Pie was very average and Pork knuckle was so, so. Shame, as I have always thought the food was good, but last night............Profits, before product.

Ate in there last Saturday - the food was excellent, including the pigs knuckle - never had food delivered from there though...

Have to say the gaff was absolutely dead though - apart from the missus and I there were 5 other customers in there - with more staff than that hanging around kicking their heels (this was about 3.00pm I guess)

Can it really be to do with the smoking ban? Walked past the Robin Hood en route and it looked mobbed, and presumably they're subject to the same smoking ban? RH is a better place to drink than the Londoner imho but the food is nothing like as good...

CC

[on-on]

A non-smoker has no impact on a smoker

That's not entirely true, they often disturb me with their complaining whilst I'm trying to have a cigarette.

I'm a non-smoker who favors these laws (being American and what not) a great deal, but this gave me a pretty good chuckle.

Where I come from people are as likely to chew tobacco. I've done it here and there and ever since this debate started I've always wanted to put in a big plug and just walk around spitting on the pro-smoker crowd's clothes so they have to go straight to the cleaners the next day too. Of course this would be grounds for a good old country a$$ whoopin' from the pro-smokers and I wouldn't do it not just for that reason, but because it's rude. At the same time, it's a bit daft that my walking around spitting tobacco on people isn't acceptable, but their walking around blowing tobacco on me is.

Edited April 11, 2008 by on-on

[kiakaha]

I kinda preferred it before to be quite honest (I have never smoked my whole life)...at least I was "acclimatised" to smokiness in bars...now if i go into one of the venues that break the law after spending time in my regular haunts that are now 100% smoke free, I get really stuffed up/dry eyes/irritated sinuses etc ... and have to leave prematurely.

[OxfordWill]

The office has an inside smoking area now. Yes!

[Ijustwannateach]

The Londoner's prices simply don't make sense, even compared to other pricey foreign-style pubs. The quality is uneven (have had good and bad meals there). The service can be uneven as well, though with so few customers they're doing better.