My Ex (or Not)

[Ijustwannateach]

    You can be tough , ..    It seems to be the correct thing to do but difficult, I think.

    How much did you care about him at this stage?  It has only been a few days since you find out about the money?

  Can I ask your age or age range ?

  khorb koon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had been deeply in love with him for half a year, though my feelings had been cooling during the obvous misdirections, lies, and holes in his story. I was still deeply enough in love that I became depressed for a few months afterwards (but more on this later).

I'm in my middle thirties, almost exactly!

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

One comment about opinion #3 (about what a barboy is there to do). Doing the job (and it very much IS a job) does not exclude the possibilities that the boy also has a "good heart" and would like to find a Mr Right to settle down with. I see too many posts from farangs who seem able only to see things in black or white - their Thai partner must be either an angel or a devil. How many people do you know at home who are either?

Steve,

I didn't mean to imply that the guys working in the bars (or free-lance for that matter) were anything other than guys with good hearts. ((Though I assume some are not I haven't yet met any that were not decent people)) But... (big but!) they are first and foremost doing a job. The better they do their job then the more the customer spends time with them (and $$ on them). The stories are endless ... the sick parent, dead water-buffalo etc etc etc. Some are even true. There will be the guys that are sweet by nature and looking for a way out of whatever life they are in. To expect them to manage to hold down a relationship with someone from vastly different life experiences and age etc etc when comparing that with nights out with friends at work drinking and dancing .... well ... imho very few will make that transition. ((Not to mention the farang that will often weary of a relationship where communication is limited etc etc ... and seeing the 1000's of available replacements ....))

I hope that every guy that meets his dream man be it in a bar or in a temple finds life-long love ... but don't be an idiot and approach it blindly :-)

[Ijustwannateach]

I love threads like this. Does anyone actually READ them as anything but a sad reflection on the guy writing them?

If you love threads like this, why bother hanging around? It's ok, though, it's kinda cool having my own personal troll. Do you ever post on Thaivisa to do anything other than attempt (and that's attempt only, darling) to assert your superiority? Sounds like a big inferiority complex to me, dear. Go do your hair, you'll feel much better.

1) If you talk ablout how dodgy your guy is ... or whether he's an ex or not ... then obviously he's not really BF material.

Personally, I like to have some sort of concrete reason to break up with a guy I care deeply about other than "well, I think you're fishy." Things about people are not always crystal clear immediately in Thailand, except perhaps to newbies. Sometimes what comes out of the murkiness is not an impediment to a relationship, sometimes it is. Sometimes the murkiness is just poor communication. That's why talking about it and getting the opinion of others is important. However, don't listen to me. Please feel free to break up with YOUR boyfriends anytime you have the least suspicion, do.

2) If you go through his wallet and e-mails then obviously you (besides not trusting him --- which should be the foundation for a relationship) have no ethical behavior in your past to pattern your current behavior from.

There was a lack of trust because of a lack of transparency in my friend's behavior and communications, along with my having caught him in several outright lies. Perhaps that should have been sufficient basis for me to break up with him- perhaps not. It's hard to know without more information!

The emails he had the choice to refuse. The wallet he did not, but then again, he was basically living with me and I was paying for his medical care. I think I had the right to know the truth about his financial (and other) situations, especially since it had not been made honestly clear after 8 months of dating!

Once again, you presume the rules (from the States) of an egalitarian non-cross-cultural relationship where both partners have equal power and access to equal information. It was obvious to me I was only going to get misdirection if I asked directly- he had made sure I had no way to get information through any independent source- so I did what was necessary to get the real information. If you feel that what *I* did was unethical in this situation, then I look forward to seeing Thailand chew you up and spit out the seeds.

3) If you treat guys like they are going to cheat then they will (just opinion) but it makes sense

This would apply if I had done so. I fully trusted him for quite a long (too long) time. Of course, I could hardly expect you to READ what I wrote (you've had this reading problem before, dear- my rates aren't too big, wanna refresher class)?

4) There are guys out here with relationships that have lasted over a year without these kinds of issues.

This proves exactly what?

1. They've had OTHER issues?

2. They've been too dumb to realize they have these issues?

3. They're doormats so these things aren't issues to them?

4. They're extremely lucky?

I surely hope you're not trying to say that most people don't have problematic issues with dating in Thailand? Because the vast evidence on the boards, in my conversations with both Thai and farang people, and in my own experience, is that they do, sooner or later. Of course, once they wind up with "the right one" things are better.

But I'm sure you're different! I'm sure you wound up marrying the first Thai guy you ever met, with no problems, no issues, and things were just PERFECT! That means you've been with your guy and no one else 4-5 years now, right?

Now ... my opinions about relationships in Thailand.

<snip.>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In general, I agree with most of this advice, especially for the newbie or the short-timer. It's worth following despite the person who posted it.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

Stay tuned for "Thai Guy Drama Theatre.." Episode 23.

(Thanks Steven!)

ChrisP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Chris! I think it's a "Work In Progress." 99% perspiration, as they say...

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

you asked recently about guys with 1year + relationships without these issues ... I'm one. I know many others.

The rest was just a vain attempt to have people look away from your poor behavior towards someone and look at me :-)

Keep using your "power" and I am sure you'll keep getting the same results .... horror stories to share with the other people that just can't make it work here.

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

Is this Thai person from a rural/peasant background?

[Ijustwannateach]

jdinasia, Steven's situation with O. was filled with inconsistencies and blank pages about O.'s past and present.  Steven had good reason to suspect he was being seriously lied to.  This was not a case of a big age difference, of a part-time farang, of an obvious Thai barboy, etc.

I was one who encouraged Steven to rustle through O.'s personal belongings after the apparent lies had gone on far too long, and the proof was in the pudding.  Okay, I'm an old government tax auditor - not that I recommend the snooping so much, but I do like to see paper documents that verify the oral testimony (not including oral testimony such as, "You smoke good").

On a related topic - if you like to dance with the devil and pay very young looking Thais for a short time, there's nothing wrong with asking to see their Thai ID card and check the year of birth.This is no time to be playing with fire, such as year 2531.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. If this were someone I had just met, then certainly it would have been a privacy violation. As things stood, he had been with me for quite some time and was implicitly asking me to take care of him entirely- pay for his school, his life, his medical care, everything. That gave me certain rights, I felt- much as a spouse would have a right to information about his partner's financial affairs (being equally responsible for them). With responsibility (should) come/s power.

On an aside- I wonder what effect the new RESPONSIBILITIES of gay marriage will have on partners as they realize they can no longer skip out of relationships scot free of their partners debts, alimony, child support, and so forth? The party may be over for some gay men.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

If you go through his wallet and e-mails then obviously you (besides not trusting him --- which should be the foundation for a relationship)

Yeah I thought that a few pages back. Kind of like reading another person's diary. Naughty really and if you do that you deserve to find something that breaks your heart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See my last post.

[Ijustwannateach]

Steve, just wanted to say your last post was lovely- don't have anything special to add to it, but really enjoyed reading it. Great advice for anyone.

I'll be getting back to the story soon. Enjoy!

"Steven"

[Steve2UK]

One comment about opinion #3 (about what a barboy is there to do). Doing the job (and it very much IS a job) does not exclude the possibilities that the boy also has a "good heart" and would like to find a Mr Right to settle down with. I see too many posts from farangs who seem able only to see things in black or white - their Thai partner must be either an angel or a devil. How many people do you know at home who are either?

Steve,

I didn't mean to imply that the guys working in the bars (or free-lance for that matter) were anything other than guys with good hearts. ((Though I assume some are not I haven't yet met any that were not decent people)) But... (big but!) they are first and foremost doing a job. The better they do their job then the more the customer spends time with them (and $$ on them). The stories are endless ... the sick parent, dead water-buffalo etc etc etc. Some are even true. There will be the guys that are sweet by nature and looking for a way out of whatever life they are in. To expect them to manage to hold down a relationship with someone from vastly different life experiences and age etc etc when comparing that with nights out with friends at work drinking and dancing .... well ... imho very few will make that transition. ((Not to mention the farang that will often weary of a relationship where communication is limited etc etc ... and seeing the 1000's of available replacements ....))

I hope that every guy that meets his dream man be it in a bar or in a temple finds life-long love ... but don't be an idiot and approach it blindly :-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

jdinasia, wasn't intending to get at you or what you're saying - just wanted to expand the considerations a bit for the reasons I mentioned.

IJWT (Steven), I hope you won't think my expansions and thoughts are hijacking your thread. I guess not - given your positive comments about what I posted (thanks).

Both of you, please don't let this thread descend into a polarised flaming war; given the nature of what we're talking about (involving our hearts and feelings), the subject is too important for that, isn't it? Jai yen, jai yen..........

Edited April 27, 2005 by Steve2UK

[Ijustwannateach]

Steve, it's ok- he's been trolling my threads now for some time. As long as he doesn't become excessively abusive, we can all just laugh at him. Back to the story later, gotta get busy now.

"Steven"

[janeny]

cheers to you steven we're all human we do feel all these emotions both pleasant and unpleasant ... pls post soon ... i for one have been following your story.

[Ijustwannateach]

The Aftermath of the Breakup

I kept getting calls from O., but I didn't really want them. I started to "reject" them on my phone, and also asked him not to SMS me and to use my email address if he really needed to say something to me. He sent several very sad, forlorn messages- always emphasizing that he missed me and loved me- and apologizing- but still never admitting exactly what he had done, or saying he was sorry for any specific misbehavior. Plus there was no news of changes in his life.

My friends commiserated with me. Most of them were still slightly sympathetic to O., noting that we genuinely cared for each other and I could have done a lot worse, but agreed regretfully that he had been too deceitful for too long. One or two of them were very quick to say they had told me so (having known all along he was a bad apple, of course).

I started dating again, as well as one can "date" in Bangkok. I met one or two interesting young men (including the candidate of my "How Dodgy Is My Candidate" thread, a few pages deep now, who is now just a good friend of mine), but nothing really clicked- certainly no feelings out there that matched how O. and I had felt. I still missed him a lot, and that might have interfered with forming any truly meaningful new attachments. Though I kept going through the motions, my dating life began to feel a bit pointless.

About a week after O. and I had broken up, I found a bag outside my door on the doorknob one morning. It had a dozen roses and some of my favorite snacks.

I wrote it off as a last ditch effort to get back into my good opinion without really changing or apologizing.

But it began to happen every week. Sometimes there were also various trade paperbacks left in the bag.

The weeks and months went by. I accepted a couple of phone calls from O. I gave him the same advice; unfortunately his apologetic phase had passed, and he pretended he didn't know why we had broken up. When I reminded him, he became indignant and blustered.

Once I met him in a bar. He had been drinking a lot and after asking permission to sit with me, he stayed until I had to go home. He was still blustering- talking a lot about going back to the "girlfriend" he'd had before he met me and having a baby with her but not marrying her. This did not impress me in a positive manner, of course- even though I didn't believe him for a moment. I decided not to point out how his claims that he was not a liar and this "girlfriend" plan contradicted each other.

A friend of mine spotted him (alone) on a Pattaya beach, but he pretended not to notice my friend.

Finally, one day, I got an SMS message from him on my phone. It read,

"I just wanted to tell you I'm starting a new job today at a Bangkok music store. You can see me at XXXXXXXXXXXX."

"Steven"

[The_Moog]

I think you still have a soft spot for him.

Otherwise you'd be like 'whatever, i've forgotten about him already. He was a jackass'.

[Ijustwannateach]

I think you're foreshadowing, Moog!

[The_Moog]

I think if there were some medical procedure in which his brain could be rewired so as to be genuinely remorseful, and realize he was out of order, and be aware not to do it again - and be able to say 'No' to temptation, and be compliant, - but not a doormat.

You'd take him back in a jiffy.

..then he wouldn't be so exciting and edgy and borderline, which even though its a pain sometimes does provide a driver to attraction.

Bottom line - You still like him. Ho Hum.

[Ijustwannateach]

Yes, yes, no need to read the rest, you've got it all sussed out. (*pssst- don't the rest of you make a sound until he's left the room- then we'll get back to the fun...*)

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

.... is there some post-modern irony he's missing ?

You have to spell these things out for nitwitz sometimes?

Edited April 28, 2005 by The_Eye_Of_Sauron

[jdinasia]

Steve, it's ok- he's been trolling my threads now for some time.  As long as he doesn't become excessively abusive, we can all just laugh at him.  Back to the story later, gotta get busy now.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah... I rarely bother commenting on your silly crap ... but sometimes the insanity needs to be commented on. You have no shame in your behavior even when you act like a real tit. I get enough positive responses to my posts both in the threads and in personal responses to make it worth calling a few people on their elitist racist crap :-)

[PeaceBlondie]

If I may interrupt the crap calling the kettle black,

I couldn't find a thread on 'Breaking Up," so I'll hijack this hijacked thread and say how easy it was to break up after almost two years. The sexual spark had gone out of the relationship long ago, so we were and stilll are, best friends. No histrionics. Neither of us took that course, "Drama Queen 101."

[toyicebear]

If you link up with a "forgetful" style person, you are likly to run into a lot of problems in the future..that is if you are not of the same inclidation...

If so..the memory blocks..could actually be a blessing in discuise..

Edited April 28, 2005 by toyicebear

[peter991]

IJWT (Steven): I've been following this thread since page 1. It seems you are still very much in love with this guy, despite everything that has happened.

I just hope this story has a happy ending.

There seems to be quite a few farang meets Thai bar girl, falls in love, they get married and live happily ever after in Thailand stories in the other sections of ThaiVisa. Perhaps some of our gay farangs can post some happy stories too. From reading the Gay People in Thailand section of ThaiVisa there don't seem to be too many happy success stories.

Peter

Peter

[ChrisP]

I agree Peter... although I do know one - ProThaiexpat is in a happy LTR here..

My LDR is going on a year now... and (despite the occaisional moodiness) is still successful (although he also wasn't a bar-boy to begin with.... which probably helps..)

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

If I may interrupt the crap calling the kettle black,

I couldn't find a thread on 'Breaking Up," so I'll hijack this hijacked thread and say how easy it was to break up after almost two years.  The sexual spark had gone out of the relationship long ago, so we were and stilll are, best friends.  No histrionics.  Neither of us took that course, "Drama Queen 101."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Congrats on being a free man yet again, PB. Hope the next one "sparks" you more!

"Steven"

[sawatdee29]

I am ready for much more. or is it all over and gone.

sophon

[Ijustwannateach]

There's more, but I'm a bit busy just now... will get back to it in a week or so.

"Steven"

[Scott]

Absolutely fascinating story. Excellent writing and story telling (not trying to diminish the anguish of the situation), but exquisitely told.

[Scott]

Still waiting, watching. some of us enjoy it and find it helpful.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks for the praise and encouragement, Scott. I'm not finished with it... but sometimes remembering the bad moments and writing about them is difficult, especially as I am still somewhat entangled with O., for better or for worse. I'll try to get another bit in this week.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

I realise it's been awhile since I promised to keep working on this thread soon, but now I really mean it!

Things between O. and I have deteriorated and it's time to move on, so writing this should help get him out of my system.

"Steven"