Garro

To quote "Thomas Henry Huxley" the originator of the term agnostic-

"I neither affirm nor deny the immortality of man. I see no reason for believing it, but, on the other hand, I have no means of disproving it. I have no a priori objections to the doctrine. No man who has to deal daily and hourly with nature can trouble himself about a priori difficulties. Give me such evidence as would justify me in believing in anything else, and I will believe that. Why should I not?"

So Garro what does it take to be a "practicing" agnostic. I don't think I can answer that, but then I don't think I can be troubled about coming up with an answer. I can be swayed, all I need is evidnce in either direction. Until then I will continue to wonder why the poll would not accept my vote.

Maybe the labels aren't so important. I think that when you give something a name you miss out on a lot of the meaning.

Pretty much a WASP...

But my religion is my own thing, when I started to date my wife I didn't know she was one of the few Thai Christians. I still get sick of hearing "You are so lucky to find a Thai Christian etc etc" from the missionary types... I ask them why? I grew up in a household where my mom is Christian, my father is Jewish and when I started dating here they said our house is big enough for three major religions and if I wanted to convert it's fine. I count myself dam_n lucky to be raised in a household with a mentality like that.

That is my core feeling also, but having been brainwashed by the Christian Church from birth, eternity in He11 sounds like a big price to pay for being wrong.

I hear this often and I understand it's a gut feeling that overpowers reason because it is so skillfully and relentlessly beat into kids. It's all about scaring the he11 in/out of them. Best wishes for dealing with it, UG.

A popular, fear related, saw among the flock goes along the lines of "there are no atheists in foxholes".

I have been where I sure wished there was a foxhole to get into, but it hardly seemed like a time to abandon reason and start hoping for the existence of some god - be he hairy thunderer or cosmic muffin.

Been there myself and found that many combat soldiers become atheists in foxholes.

In spite of the popularity of religions, the number of believers in these various superstitions does not establish fact. Until I have evidence of the existence of supernatural beings, I will not seek a religion that wishes me to give myself over to one.

The force that seems to run things that I don't understand is something I call the Cozmik Snicker...

Polls are difficult to do in any context, let alone on an internet forum. I did not vote because it would not let me, and I really did not want to pretend to be Buddhist or Thai in order to claim I was Christian and Caucasian. Mai bpen rai.

This gives the non-believers a good chance to bash all religions and all believers.

As for the oversight of omitting Judaism, it is not a major religion. Fifteen out of 6300 million is not major. Important, surely. Major, no. Then again, if Buddhism is not a religion, surely agnosticism and atheism are even less so. Most people who are claimed as believers by their religions are about as religious as a doorknob. And some of us are inconsistent, labeled as hypocrites.

Silly parameters. Please define practising.Praying several times to God daily yet not attending a church count? You are in over your head

I did define practising as attending churchor a religious place, but sure praying more than once a week would make you practising, naturally! That was understood!

THAT may be understood, but what I don't understand is you - and your motives for doing this? Are you giving us all some innocent exercise while we closet ourselves away from the madness of Songkran? Or trying to conduct a serious survey for a serious purpose?

To me, one's religious/spiritual beliefs and practices (if any) are, along with sex maybe, right at the intimate and personal heart of every individual.

Please tell us all - do - why should anyone answer your questions until and unless they know more about you and your motives?

If everyone shared my beliefs it would mean the world would be such a nicer place - or nicer for me anyway.

i have not come across a more nonsensical thread in the few years that i have been on TV.

even so, what significance is there out of finding out the religion composition of chiang mai? can find out how many people you want to convert to your religion?

i won't even start on the number of religions you missed out ! ..

Garro

To quote "Thomas Henry Huxley" the originator of the term agnostic-

"I neither affirm nor deny the immortality of man. I see no reason for believing it, but, on the other hand, I have no means of disproving it. I have no a priori objections to the doctrine. No man who has to deal daily and hourly with nature can trouble himself about a priori difficulties. Give me such evidence as would justify me in believing in anything else, and I will believe that. Why should I not?"

So Garro what does it take to be a "practicing" agnostic. I don't think I can answer that, but then I don't think I can be troubled about coming up with an answer. I can be swayed, all I need is evidnce in either direction. Until then I will continue to wonder why the poll would not accept my vote.

Maybe the labels aren't so important. I think that when you give something a name you miss out on a lot of the meaning.

Chapter One, Sentence One, of the "Tao Te Ching" says ' The Tao that can be named is not the Tao.' I guess Lao Tzu agrees with you!

As for the oversight of omitting Judaism, it is not a major religion. Fifteen out of 6300 million is not major.

Well at least you didn't equate them to being apes an pigs as some mullahs have done. uhhh, last I heard Jesus was one of them there jews and there are a great many people in the catholic church that revere the holy prepuce. The point being, is that it is not numbers, but impact that defines significance. We were actually discussing this this morning on my forced visit to the temples when I asked about important Thai scientists that have contributed to innovative thinking and research. One would think that in a faith that encourages discussion and even dissent that this would feed the scientific process. My friends couldn't name anyone of significance. All they could do was reference a couple profs that work with existing discoveries. Interesting though that jews and liberal christians make up the bulk of innovative thinkers and contributors in the natural sciences (biochemistry, medicine, chemistry). I offered the thought that it seemed that the only religious groups that churned out value in greater numbers than their population would suggest are nonreligious jews & christians. One need only look at the list of nobel laureates for the past century or medical advancement awards to see that. Perhaps there is something to being an openminded christian or jew that inculcates advanced thinking patterns. I recall that my austere Church of England school didn't teach us to question or think on our own. Hence I offer that it is not numbers, but impact that counts. Besides, I reckon Jesus would agree with me on that.

Chapter One, Sentence One, of the "Tao Te Ching" says ' The Tao that can be named is not the Tao.' I guess Lao Tzu agrees with you!

I forget who said it first but, given the absolutely huge variety of religious theologies/mythologies in this world, there is no possibility whatsoever that they could all be right... but there is every possibility that they could all be wrong..

By PeaceBlondie:

This gives the non-believers a good chance to bash all religions and all believers.

Thank you so much for not directing this at me personally! Long ago, a rather highly respected UFO/Alien Invasion devotee labeled me a "non-believer" and it took years of ptsd therapy to make me whole again.

"Only myths are true,

everything else is false."

~Joseph Campbell~

At the time of posting I see 20 foreigners are claiming to be Buddhists.

I am wondering how many of these Buddhists know anything about Buddhism or are merely wearing a Buddhist amulet around their necks and claiming to be a Buddhist. How many of these Buddhists actually get down to Wai and make merit to an image of Buddha. How often have you sat with and had a converation with a Buddhist Monk?

Are you Theravada or Hinayana Buddhists (practised in Thailand and neighboring countries)? Or perhaps Zen Buddhism from China? Or the Japanese Nichiren Buddhism? Maybe Pure Land Buddhism, Yogacara Buddhism or Vajrayana Buddhism?

If you are a Theravada Buddhist do you know the difference between Samyaksambuddhas and Pratyekabuddhas?

Just a thought.

I personally don't believe in any religion. If I feel threatened or get a scare I don't say, "Please help me God." I say, "Oh shit."

Dead is dead and there ain't no more.

We'll start a non practicing pagan sect Brinky.

At the time of posting I see 20 foreigners are claiming to be Buddhists.

I am wondering how many of these Buddhists know anything about Buddhism or are merely wearing a Buddhist amulet around their necks and claiming to be a Buddhist. How many of these Buddhists actually get down to Wai and make merit to an image of Buddha. How often have you sat with and had a converation with a Buddhist Monk?

Are you Theravada or Hinayana Buddhists (practised in Thailand and neighboring countries)? Or perhaps Zen Buddhism from China? Or the Japanese Nichiren Buddhism? Maybe Pure Land Buddhism, Yogacara Buddhism or Vajrayana Buddhism?

If you are a Theravada Buddhist do you know the difference between Samyaksambuddhas and Pratyekabuddhas?

Just a thought.

I became interested in Buddhism at age 14 and long before my arrival in Thailand. I meditate daily, go on retreats and support temples. It really doesn't matter what label you choose to call it though.

Buddhists officially become Buddhists by seeking refuge in the Buddha, his teachings, and the community of monks. Others become Buddhist by just trying to practice the teachings. Their is no entrance exam, and it is not expected that members know everything about all the different traditions. Action is often considered of more importance than learning.

You show surprise at the number of people claiming to be Buddhists. Why?

As for the oversight of omitting Judaism, it is not a major religion.

Of course Judaism is a major religion. It is one of the big three to come out of the Middle East and of huge importance in the history of western civilization.

Judaism influenced the development of Christianity and Islam, and had a major influence on Western civilization - Christianity, the eventually dominant religious faith of the West, was in large part a child of the Hebrew religion. When we speak of the Judeo-Christian heritage of Western civilization, we refer not only to the concept of monotheism, but also to ideas of law, morality, and social justice that have become important parts of Western culture. All of the major Western religions found their roots in Judaism.

They were responsible for a religious revolution founded on the concept of a single, universal God. This innovation became the basis of Christianity and Islam.

there are a great many people in the catholic church that revere the holy prepuce...

choke with laughter

Are you Theravada or Hinayana Buddhists (practised in Thailand and neighboring countries)?

Do you mean Theravada or Mahayana?

Hinayana and Theravada are often used to describe the same branch of Buddhism. Mahayana refers to the 'greater vehicle' and refers to the religions practiced in China, Japan and so on. Mahayanists sometimes refer to Theravada (as mostly practiced in Thailand) as Hinayana which means 'lesser vehicle'.

My reference to Judaism not being a major religion in the world was strictly numerical, not qualitative. I was referring to the complaint that it had been left off the list in the poll, which also left out Hindu and yet included Baha'i. Yes, Judaism and Christianity both started in Asia, and Jesus was Jewish.

You show surprise at the number of people claiming to be Buddhists. Why?

I am not the least bit surprised by this number. What I am wondering is how many of these people are in fact practising Buddhists or merely saying that they are.

I have known a number of foreigners who have "done their time" studying and practising Buddhism in Wats in Thailand and other countries where Buddhism is the principle religion. I respect you and these people for what they are as they are truly devoted to their chosen religion. However there are so many foreigners in Thailand who say they are Buddhists without having the first clue about what the religion is about.

Do you mean Theravada or Mahayana?

Hinayana and Theravada are often used to describe the same branch of Buddhism. Mahayana refers to the 'greater vehicle' and refers to the religions practiced in China, Japan and so on. Mahayanists sometimes refer to Theravada (as mostly practiced in Thailand) as Hinayana which means 'lesser vehicle'.

I am aware that Theravada or Mahayana are the same. I was not referring to them as different branches. Please note that I mention the other branches of Buddhism in different sentences.

Food and Laughter are my religion. Anyone want to join ?

And let's see, I feel like there's one other religion you missed...seems to have slipped my mind.... in a desert for 40 yrs, the 10 Commandments, parting of the Red Sea.... what were they called again?

Really ? You came up with Bahai and forgot the Jews ? That's ok. You been hangin' with the Bahai's ? Cool. Where ? The town's got a fair amount of Sikh's n Hindus too for that matter, though probably not on the TV CM SubForum. But I know for a fact there's a good # of the Jewish ppl out here in CM, whether they identify themselves as religious or just of the people. Must've slipped your mind too when drawing up the categories.

And this is like the job apps and many other forms you fill out here in Prathet Thai - it's weird to ask this. It's just such a personal thing. Everybody essentially has their own religion with their own opinions and views of how it all goes down. And in today's day n age, I'm betting alot of us TV Expats are ecclectically informed and putting one religious name over the whole of our beliefs does an injustice to our understandings of this world and beyond.

You show surprise at the number of people claiming to be Buddhists. Why?

I am not the least bit surprised by this number. What I am wondering is how many of these people are in fact practising Buddhists or merely saying that they are.

I have known a number of foreigners who have "done their time" studying and practising Buddhism in Wats in Thailand and other countries where Buddhism is the principle religion. I respect you and these people for what they are as they are truly devoted to their chosen religion. However there are so many foreigners in Thailand who say they are Buddhists without having the first clue about what the religion is about.

Do you mean Theravada or Mahayana?

Hinayana and Theravada are often used to describe the same branch of Buddhism. Mahayana refers to the 'greater vehicle' and refers to the religions practiced in China, Japan and so on. Mahayanists sometimes refer to Theravada (as mostly practiced in Thailand) as Hinayana which means 'lesser vehicle'.

I am aware that Theravada or Mahayana are the same. I was not referring to them as different branches. Please note that I mention the other branches of Buddhism in different sentences.

is it true that "theravadas" prefer scotch over a mild Kentucky moonshine?

Don't forget that many things you see in Thailand has nothing at all to do with

Buddhism , they are cultural things . Like they have in Tibet , its nice to look at it though .

Buddhism you can say is the religion of rationalism , a philosophy based on rational thinking .

Its a way of life , in thinking and action , nothing more , you don't have to go to a monk or a temple

or a church or whatever . Its the way you live and how you live and walk the walk .

You do not have to be Buddhist the be one , sounds strange perhaps , but its true .

I got more respect for an Atheist , not sure what to think or believe , looking for proof before

he makes any commitments with himself then somebody who relentlessly follows a religion

but doesn't understand a bit of the meaning of it , and most of those go to the temple or church ,

out of fear !

Now I remember who said not to follow anything unless you are totally sure its the right way for you .

Yes indeed it was the Lord Buddha himself .

So Blinky Bill who said that probably nobody understands what they voted for ?

Anyone know if there are any cults in Thailand recruiting using sex? I remember there were a couple Christian sects that were ding that and I so wanted to be converted. And what about those Raelians that believe their Lord is descended from outer space (sort of a rip off of the L. Ron Hubbard devotees).

Would love to type a load of junk to in with the topic . But i'm on my mobile phone so i keep it short till i got a stable connecting on my desktop . Hear me dear people of the lost , to each his own , find not the excuse to be good fear not the chance to be brave . Hide not you deed to do well . For life is so short to be wasted on sore thinking . To sad to be used on blind lead of blame and blink . After what ever you do . The simple fact that nobody is more human .

Would love to type a load of junk to in with the topic . But i'm on my mobile phone so i keep it short till i got a stable connecting on my desktop . Hear me dear people of the lost , to each his own , find not the excuse to be good fear not the chance to be brave . Hide not you deed to do well . For life is so short to be wasted on sore thinking . To sad to be used on blind lead of blame and blink . After what ever you do . The simple fact that nobody is more human .

See? I told you..

The Cozmik Snicker LIVES !!

Actually, if the question is -- and it is the question here -- what is one's religion, then 'agnostic' and 'atheist' cannot be answers, because they are not religions.

As a person who does not, by choice, believe in any religion, I would select 'not religious' if it were given as a choice. To me, it corresponds to 'not superstitious' as a response to the question, if anyone were to ask, of what superstitions I believe in. In addition to the fact that 'agnosticism' and 'atheism' are not religions at all, they are unacceptable as answers, in my view, because they are loaded and negative concepts that reflect and embody the mindsets of religious people.

Would love to type a load of junk to in with the topic . ..... Hear me dear people of the lost ,.... Hide not you deed to do well . For life is so short to be wasted on sore....

That's fine, Ta22, without typing a load of junk....

i have not come across a more nonsensical thread in the few years that i have been on TV.

even so, what significance is there out of finding out the religion composition of chiang mai? can find out how many people you want to convert to your religion?

i won't even start on the number of religions you missed out ! ..

AMEN, brother!!

Not to rain on the effort of the OP, but the poll is somewhat flawed.

If one selects, say "agnostic" in the 1st box, the 2nd box asks "if Buddhist- Thai, other Asian, etc.?", and the 3rd "are you a missionary?"

If one answers only box 1 & 3 (assuming not a Buddhist) you get a board error message.

So it appears non-Buddhists votes are not being tallied....correct me if I am mistaken.

Personally I would not want to discuss my religious beliefs on TV

Personally I would not want to discuss my religious beliefs on TV

Bastard.

But then, given the Creepy/Crawly/Pauly stuff you believe, little wonder...