Songkran Death Toll Rises To 180

[Eric1949]

I am sure Thais will correct me on this one.

Before the current hooliganism, a person was asked if it was OK to splash a little water and put a little talc on them. How nice, how polite.

Now, if you want to go out, and why shouldn't you be able to, you get a soaking whether you want it or not. This is not nice, this is not polite.

Unfortunatly, many tourist and expats have adapted to this hooliganism also.

People do not have the right to block roads and soak/powder anyone they feel like.

I am glad that I am in Singapore for the 'fun'.

[Jabari]

A cynic might say that that as Thailand does not have a war to fight, this is Mother Natures way of culling the population. I read today also that the Interior Minsiter is considering banning alcohol at Songkran next year, that would make it like a 7 day election and kiss goodbye to even more tourists. Let's face it, whatever we say or think, nothing will change because the Thais seem to LIKE risking their own lives and that of others with lunatic behaviour. I feel truly sorry for the loss of life incurred thus fare and for what is still to come. Happy Songkran, stay at home!

I have spent over 25 years practicing emergency medicine in the US and have seen my share of road kill. Drinking and driving are an issue everywhere and I don't see anything particularly alarming about the Songkran death toll, I think you said it right, staying off the road is the best bet.

The US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said 43,443 people were killed on the highways last year, up 1.4 percent from 42,836 in 2004. It was the highest number of fatalities in a single year since 1990, when 44,599 people were killed. (just about 120 people daily, every day. Imagine if we didn't have seat belts, airbags, helmets, anti-lock brakes, etc)

[Thaifever]

thaifever

A great thing about Thailand is the freedom. Some people from the west think that a policed state makes us "safer". But by restricting and controlling everything, you lose your freedom. You might "feel" safer, but you are only giving up your freedom to choose.

If you really have a problem with a holiday in a country that you are visiting, stay indoors, or go home. Why do people always want to control everything?

thats a naive , childish and selfish viewpoint.

and not until you or your wife or child get hit and injured by a speeding drunken driver exercising his freedoms without fear or hindrance from the police can we expect your opinions to mature and attain any semblance of sense.

What point would there be to place blame on the driver of the car? That wouldn't change anything. I would never waste my time and energy hating someone whether they were drunk or not. If I did, I would only wallow in my own misery, and make those around me miserable. You should celebrate someone's life you care about, not seek vengeance. I have lost friends from drunk driving but I understand that people do things sometimes they should not, whether a law is there or not.

Don't fight life, learn from the Thais, you're in one of the most chill places on the planet. If you can let go of your desire to control, you may find piece of mind.

[jitagon]

Phuket is finally drying up today.

Everything passed quite well. I haven't heard of any major incidents. Did see some people bleeding and getting stitches... because they slipped on the dangerous polished wet floors in bars...

Regards and happy Songkhran

Sam

Then I assume you don't live in the Rawai/Sai Yuan area, where some idiots had set up a big plastic barrel of water RIGHT before the very dangerous hairpen bend on busy Sai Yuan Road, quite probably to catch the unwary motorcyclist who wouldn't see a tub full of water flying at them until it was too late. Stupid. When I lived in Chalong the police would warn 'funseekers' off the Patak Road, why where they not in evidence everywhere else?

Of course Songkran is fun for the younger Thais and pissed up 'let's go Thai farang', but keep it off the bloody roads.

[technocracy]

I find it funny how people can give others a pasting when all they are doing is expressing a point of veiw which in this case I tend to agree with the original poster. These things happen back in our own countries even with the over policing and regulations. In fact I believe you won't be able to fart in Australia soon as it will be classed as bad for the environment and you could be fined. Like it is now illegal to throw snow balls in Tasmania because some kid was hurt by one with a rock in it.

I for one put up with Songkran. Yes it is a pain in the arse but so is the traffic back home at holiday times. If you don't like it then piss off.

Were you born stupid or are you just acting stupid?

People are dying in there masses due a moronic drink driving, water and powder slinging festival that is taking place in Thailand. It's not just a case of one child being hurt or similar - it's not just Political Correctness being talked here it's trying to save peoples lives! Could you imagine what would happen in Oz is 400+ people died in during Christmas week? Just because you think it's 'fun' and don't want your 'fun' spoilt why not try for just one minute and expand your selfish imagination to the rest of the population - and the hundreds losing members of there family due to your idea of 'fun'.

Every year without fail there is huge numbers of people dying due to these 'celebrations' - why is it so hard to comprehend that something needs to be done to stop these deaths even if what fun is involved is removed? You know returning it back to the Buddhist religious festival it used to be. The big problem though is that the police in Thailand will do screw all regardless so it'll never change - maybe if the king spoke out about it then something might just sink into the thick skulls .. .. then again maybe not!

Laos thankfully isn't as moronic in the 'celebrations' as Thailand - the police do actually actively police it and keep it relatively under control, but also the people here haven't quite reached the fringe lunatics as many in Thailand. Also we don't have a massive influx of pot bellied or stoned hooligan tourists to influence the matter so much - they all go to Thailand. Also in Laos it only last for the traditional 3 days - I really can't think what it must be like suffering it for a full week!

As for my Songkran we took our buddhas to the temple, washed the buddha images at the temple, washed our spirit house and temples in the house and then took gifts (new clothes) to my wifes parents who in return blessed us and applied a small amount of blessed water on our heads. Sorry if the 'real' meaning of Songkran doesn't match up to a pissed up water fight in Pattaya with gogo dancers dancing on the back of pickups with several hundred deaths thrown in for good measure.

[Tony Clifton]

A cynic might say that that as Thailand does not have a war to fight, this is Mother Natures way of culling the population. I read today also that the Interior Minsiter is considering banning alcohol at Songkran next year, that would make it like a 7 day election and kiss goodbye to even more tourists. Let's face it, whatever we say or think, nothing will change because the Thais seem to LIKE risking their own lives and that of others with lunatic behaviour. I feel truly sorry for the loss of life incurred thus fare and for what is still to come. Happy Songkran, stay at home!

I have spent over 25 years practicing emergency medicine in the US and have seen my share of road kill. Drinking and driving are an issue everywhere and I don't see anything particularly alarming about the Songkran death toll, I think you said it right, staying off the road is the best bet.

The US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said 43,443 people were killed on the highways last year, up 1.4 percent from 42,836 in 2004. It was the highest number of fatalities in a single year since 1990, when 44,599 people were killed. (just about 120 people daily, every day. Imagine if we didn't have seat belts, airbags, helmets, anti-lock brakes, etc)

I'm curious, do you see anything alarming regartding the way Thais drive year round?

[Bagwan]

Would those who see nothing wrong in the Songkran madness and take the view that the country belongs to the Thai peoples and they can do whatever they want, please take their sick philosophies to the UK and other countries swamped under the flood of emigrants and spout them there. They'll get short shrift from the recent arrivals I'll wager.

[Kilgore Trout]

It IS all very, very sad.

Unfortunately each holiday we read comments from the authorities that their target and hope is to have less deaths than the previous year.

If they manage that they consider it somewhat of a success but at what cost. It is merely a statistical success because an enormous number have still died.

We are told 86% who have died so far are motorbike riders and a huge number of deaths are drink related.

I would like to see how many of these died of head injuries and were NOT wearing helmets who may have survived otherwise (very many I bet).

The Thais mostly do not want to wear helmets and are willing to accept being occasionally caught. The Thai law however says they must wear helmets (like them or not)

How to enforce??

It is not good using the UK system of points on the driving licence, or license confiscation because 46% do not have license (or insurance). BUt they all have ID Cards and their record can be recorded in Police computer databanks.

The answer is VERY simple increasing and stiff financial penalties. The drivers understand that one AND the traffic police need as policy to try and stop ALL they see (and not only during "road block purges).

I KNOW it would take up a huge amount of police time INITIALLY (and at first many would escape penalty due to volume of numbers) BUT, as in other countries, once the riders realized they were not getting away with it and increasingly they were being pulled up (anywhere and not only at road blocks) and were having to pay huge amounts in fines they would soon obey the helmet laws (even if for the wrong reasons). This would cause a drop in necessary policing on this issue quickly and the remaining "die hards" would be easy to identify and deal with.

At the same time the police should always check for valid driving licenses and confiscate motorbikes of rider not able to show a valid driving license and ONLY release the bike when one can be shown BY THAT rider. It does not matter (unless stolen) who owns the bike, because bike owners would soon make sure only licensed driver used or borrowed their bikes if they faced confiscation.

Some may feel that harsh but harsh penalties are already in place under Thai law which permit fines AND a maximum prison term of 1 month. Its just that nobody thinks the police and authorities will impose the maximum penalty and they do not - so there is no real deterrent to driving without a license. The truth is, too many Thais do and are allowed to do what they want and not what their own laws demand for theirs and others protection.

Regarding the lack of driving licenses It should not be forgotten that most without a license have never learned the highway code, correct riding techniques, knowledge of road signs or safe handing and road positioning of their motorbikes (hence why nearly every bike rider heavily cuts the corner when turning right AND they have no insurance to pay for damage to others property or medical bills (or their own).

My wife was told by a friend (who asked why she bothered to learn to drive and take her test last week - my wife passed ) and I quote

"Oh I did my test 3 times and failed each time.It was so stupid I did not waste my money any more - I know I can drive well and I don't need the license most do not have them anyway".

I think that sums up the attitude.

Lets face it. The driving tests in all countries do not even mean you are a good safe driver but that you have satisfied the MINIMUM levels of competency to be allowed to drive on the roads with a full driving license. Clearly my wife' friend is a danger to herself and everybody else (and uninsured) her driving test failures PROVE that . Her complacent attitude is almost as dangerous.

May you and all families and friends have a safe and happy remainder of Songkran.

Regards

Dave

This could so easily have been written by me. Accidents will always happen, but it is necessary to ensure that they are minor ones and not major ones.

After every Songkran and New Year for the past 20 years, this being the time I have been in Thailand, successive governments set up committees to find out what went wrong and how to avoid the tragedy the following year. NOTHING EVER HAPPENS!. We are told that everyone must have valid licences and insurance, (which means no kid on motorbikes), helmets must be worn by drivers and passengers, checkpoints will always be set up to stop drunk drivers and speeding, but very little ever happens.

Kids still ride motorbikes year round (some as young as 10) and are allowed to drive them into schools often with 2/3 of their classmates aboard , helmets are rarely worn in rural areas, and most village people do not have driving licences. When caught by police (mainly at the end of the month!) fines are usually 100/200bt, and a blind eye is always turned to the kids driving. Add to all these problems the stupidity and toleration of water throwing and its a wonder the numbers of accidents and fatalities are not even higher.

My village has a checkpoint just before the road enters a major highway. The main town has a checkpoint set up at a traffic light controlled intersection. On the several occasions I have passed these during the past 3 days, the personnel are just sitting around talking, drinking soft drinks, and no doubt waiting for Songkran to finish when they can claim their pay. For what? They seem to do NOTHING!

You will never totally eliminate accidents, but they can be drastically reduced with full law enforcement, and harsh penalties - why not 5000bt for starters, to be doubled upon each additional infringement.

And totally ban water throwing except in public parks etc between consenting adults and children.

I am getting sick and tired of reading post after post, written by expats or tourists or whatever, complaining and criticising the Thai police, the Thai traditions and the resident Thai citizens for behaving in a manner 'they' deem unaceptable. Sure, should that Thai erson/cop/politician person behave like that in the the foreigner's home country then they would be given a good flogging and sent to jail forever, BUT YOU ARE NOT IN YOUR HOME COUNTRY!!!! For gods sake, you are an expat living in a foreign country, get with the program and accept that things happen differently over here. That means differnt rules, different standards and different, well everything. If you can't come to terms with kids driving motorbikes and cops taking backhanders and all the rest of the stuff that goes on in Asia generally, then please bugger off back home and stop anoying the rest of us, who actually quite enjoy it over here.

Please, PLEASE, stop using this site and simlar to vent your phobias, missunderstandings and other culture shock related fears - we know it can be anoying sometimes, and yes, it is confusing and often frustrating, but it's still better than crappy weather, 34% income tax (my backet anyway) and 17.5% VAT.

Incidentally, I went out yesterday in Koh Phangan, on a motorbike, with my 1 year old son. The thais did not throw water in our faces, nobody crashed into us and I didn't get stabbed or shot of done by the police. However,some Thai people did respectfully splash water over us with my blessing (shock horror!!!).

The only people who did throw water in my face as I was driving (slowly and sobely) along were the pissed tourists hanging out of the girly bars in Baan Tai.

Regardless of who was throwing the water you put you child at severe risk; how would you feel if you gave the kid a broken collar bone or worse? Nice going, jerk!

[apetley]

thaifever

A great thing about Thailand is the freedom. Some people from the west think that a policed state makes us "safer". But by restricting and controlling everything, you lose your freedom. You might "feel" safer, but you are only giving up your freedom to choose.

If you really have a problem with a holiday in a country that you are visiting, stay indoors, or go home. Why do people always want to control everything?

thats a naive , childish and selfish viewpoint.

and not until you or your wife or child get hit and injured by a speeding drunken driver exercising his freedoms without fear or hindrance from the police can we expect your opinions to mature and attain any semblance of sense.

What point would there be to place blame on the driver of the car? That wouldn't change anything. I would never waste my time and energy hating someone whether they were drunk or not. If I did, I would only wallow in my own misery, and make those around me miserable. You should celebrate someone's life you care about, not seek vengeance. I have lost friends from drunk driving but I understand that people do things sometimes they should not, whether a law is there or not.

Don't fight life, learn from the Thais, you're in one of the most chill places on the planet. If you can let go of your desire to control, you may find piece of mind.

Uhhh, because drunk driving is illegal, even in Thailand!

There is no need to hate someone because they drive a car when drunk but there is every reason to criticise and condemn what they do because it can ruin and destroy lives.

[Naam]

The US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said 43,443 people were killed on the highways last year, up 1.4 percent from 42,836 in 2004. It was the highest number of fatalities in a single year since 1990, when 44,599 people were killed. (just about 120 people daily, every day. Imagine if we didn't have seat belts, airbags, helmets, anti-lock brakes, etc)

imagine if U.S. citizens would have to undergo rigid driving lessons and a test (like in many other countries) instead of being issued a license with less efforts than buying a burger in McDonalds got my DL in Florida, went with my car, an old lady was the tester "whenever you see a stop sign make a good stop for me". i drove around three corners, made three "good stops for her" (not me) and she was very pleased "you must have been driving before i presume?" "yes Ma'am, i have been driving since more than 30 years in two dozen different countries"

[maxelchey]

Would those who see nothing wrong in the Songkran madness and take the view that the country belongs to the Thai peoples and they can do whatever they want, please take their sick philosophies to the UK and other countries swamped under the flood of emigrants and spout them there. They'll get short shrift from the recent arrivals I'll wager.

No, because we live here for years, we pay taxes, we operate businesses, we employ Thais, we have a family, we take care of our relatives family here, we buy cars, we drive, we have a life, and we want it to be safe and joyful, nobody said we want Thailand become the UK, Sweden or Australia, we just want to see some sense, we know it can be done, we know most Thais want that too... we are just sad (and very pissed off during songrkan) to see that some Thais, because of lack of education and extreme sense of selfishness, just act like retarded fools with no consideration of others or risks they can create with their retarded acts !!

If "recent arrivals" means more morons, more fat belly drunk, more whore mongers, we don't like that neither ... and Thais really hate it as well !

[gdhm]

..Don't fight life, learn from the Thais, you're in one of the most chill places on the planet. If you can let go of your desire to control, you may find piece of mind.

Hi Thaifever,

Shouldn't that read "don't fight death..." regretfully!!!

see link http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=127115

Terrible and sad. So much for more extensive policing and enforcement of safety laws.

My desire IS to chill, IS to NOT control, IS have peace of mind AND to LIVE to enjoy all that.

Am I wrong in thinking that those hopes and wishes for me, my family and all others in Thailand are being put at risk by morons.

Regards

Dave

[prakhonchai nick]

I have just returned from an unplanned and unexpected but necessary journey to the hospital in Buriram. A round trip of about 100kms. But for this I would have stayed home until the songkran madness was over as I have done in previous years.

The journey was chaotic. Every few hundred metres gangs of unmistakably drunk youths charged out into the road slowing convoys of cars that contained a pick up, so they could douse everyone in the back with water. I saw one motorcyclist travelling at around 60/70kph receive a bucketful of water head on - fortunately he managed to retain control. There were many so called check points set up with cones in the centre of the road, presumably to slow traffic down. These were manned by non police personnel, more concerned with watching the provided televisions than the traffic. Because traffic was slowed, this presented an ideal opportunity for youths to set up their water pots and wet all and sundry. No attempt was made to move them on. And where incidentally were all the Police. I did not see any!

A journey that should have taken 40 minutes took well over 1 hour, and that was not because of the volume of traffic, but the water throwing idiots!

By all means let the Thai people have their fun, but this is not fun, just plain dangerous. Let them go to public parks, sports grounds, etc and play with water. For the sake of the majority of people (Thai or farangs) throwing water at moving vehicles (cars, motorbikes of bicycles), and from moving vehicles at other vehicles or people really must be banned in future years. The roads and highways which have extra traffic at these times must remain clear and almost certainly the accident rate, and therefore the death rate will be significantly reduced.

I doubt however that anyone in authority is either listening to the voice of the people or even care!

[Scott]

Nearly everybody everywhere (at least where I've been--and that's quite a lot of places) are nuts when they get on the road. What does make a difference is law enforcement. Most people will drive over the speed limit, unless they fear getting caught and if getting caught means a reasonably inconvenient fine/punishment. There is precious little enforcement in this country. The 'road blocks' are really somewhat of a joke and a waste of time.

A second point with this holiday is that it is played on the roads--the same roads that people are using for transportation and who need or want to get from one point to another. Play it in a park, play it off the road, play it where there are no vehicles--even bicycles and it would be a fun, reasonably safe holiday. I've seen some of those motorbikes swerve to avoid a drenching and nearly been hit--both by me--and I am driving quite slowly, and others.

They could even close off some roads for splashing only. But don't mix all this up. Water, driving and drinking--bad combination.

[geriatrickid]

argh, I wish people would stop using the word accident to describe the crashes and injuries. An accident is sudden unexpected and unforeseen. Almost all of this carnage is due to intentional behaviour. Drive drunk or wrecklessly, combined with not wearing a helmet and crash, it is an expected result, not an accident. As ye sow, so shall ye reap and it's a good harvest this year. Go get'em Grim Reaper.......

Too bad they don't publish some of the photos from the carnage. I saw a good one with a decapitated torso with a severed limb tossed in for good measure........

[toptuan]

The announcements in our province about water-throwing were: 1) Not after dark, and 2) not on the main highways.

So last night about 7:30pm, suffering a bad cold with chills and slight fever, I decided to venture out among the law-abiding citizens on my motorbike for quick run down the MAIN highway (where cars routinely travel 80-100kph) to a drugstore about 5 minutes away.

In the dark, about 100 meters down the road: WHAM! Massive bucket of cold water from the side, nearly throwing me to the pavement. The culprits: 8-10 year olds, totally unnoticed by parents chatting up a storm on the porch.

Back home, wet, cold and shaking--for some reason the cold medicine didn't seem to cut it. So much for a beneficial trip to the pharmacy! And so much for thinking the rules might be followed. HA!

[Sunderland]

I spent most of this Songkran in the hospital, well actually 2.

I rescued my sister in law from the government hospital

and a 4 hour+ boat transfer to an different gov. hospital.

And added weeks or years of hel_l no doubt..

6:15-6:30 AM Friday a truck stopped much more abruptly

than it normally should have, without normal signals,

as normal as they ever get used here.

She rear ended it face first.

Thank the gods, pick one, she had a helmet on.

She would not be here now. She only has a shattered jaw,

and 2 years minimum of a plate from ear to chin, and lots of dental work.

After 6 hours on the operating table with a real, professional surgeon.

But she will live, still look sweet and has all her faculties.

I transfered her, on my dime, to a good farang cliented hospital,

with a staph that can actual take and read xrays, and CT scans,

the government hospital couldn't even TAKE a simple xray...

let alone fix a face properly. I looked, I could take a better xray,

I have NO DOUBT.

Of course the cost is high, most Thais are not insured,

and trucking companies don't feel the need to inssure delivery vehicles

more than the mandatory.

But family first I will take care of her.

It seems most people start to disregard the normal rules of the road

a notch more during Songkran, must be something about renewal

and washed aways sins. They seem to ignore even more caution,

in favor of re-incarnation having just been purified.

The problem is THEIR actions affect others. Who likely may NOT

want to come back as something else, but continue in this life time.

I saw another bad accident this morning mini-van cuts across to driveway,

and motorcyclist with morning shopping hits it head one,

and leaves head shaped dent on minivan front.

10 am....

It is not hard to cry for the Thai people on a day such as this....

Sorry to hear about your sister-in-law.

Accidents happen all year round and there is clearly a lack of driving skill among drivers of everything from top of the range cars to buses, trucks and anything else that moves on the road. Even cyclists seem to come spinning out of sois in circles without the slightest idea how to control themselves. While alcohol is another factor that contributes to the carnage on the roads, mostly it's a lack of patience, skill and understanding about control of vehicles that causes the majority of accidents. Putting into practice a simple awareness of minimum braking distances and the dangers of over-taking on blind bends would probably cause a reasonable reduction in the number of accidents.

Don't forget that Thailand is still a developing country. Give it time. The madness that some people claim to be angry or excited about has been seen all over the world at different times in the past.

[george]

Update:

Rescue workers busy as Songkran revellers head home, casualties rise

BANGKOK: -- Rescue workers and medical emergency staff are working round-the-clock as celebrants of Songkran, Thailand's traditional New Year's water festival, begin returning to the capital city after a long holiday weekend, according to Health Minister Chaiya Sasomsup.

Mr. Chaiya, also deputy director of the national Road Safety Center (RSC), said roads leading to Bangkok are expected to become busy later Tuesday and Wednesday as Songkran revellers start returning for work.

The RSC had asked police to take action against drivers who speed as well as those who drink alcohol. Highway police have opened additional lanes to allow larger number of vehicles to head for Bangkok, Mr. Chaiya said. (TNA)

According to Mr. Chaiya, in the first four days of the "seven most dangerous days" during Songkran, beginning April 11, there have been 2,949 road accidents throughout Thailand, with a tally so far of 229 deaths and 3,315 injuries.

The northern provinces of Phetchabun and Phitsanulok had the highest road death toll during the four-day period with 11 and 10 fatalities respectively, he said.

Drunk driving was the major cause of road accidents during the period, he said four out of five accidents -- 81.26 per cent -- involved motorcycles, he said.

Also, during the past four days rescue workers and medical staff have responded to road injuries 5,222 times, sudden illnesses 4,639 times, intervened on 846 quarrels, 73 attempted suicides and 48 drowning incidents, Mr. Chaiya said.

Anucha Mokkhavesa, director-general of the Disaster Prevention and Mitigation Department, said provincial authorities had been told to take special action against drunken motorcyclists who also don't wear helmets, because they were the ones who caused most accidents.

The department has set up 52 checkpoints along major roads and highways nationwide to provide free check-ups on vehicle tires and brake system, said Mr. Anucha.

--TNA 2008-04-15

[prakhonchai nick]

Don't forget that Thailand is still a developing country. Give it time.

How much time? 1000 years?

I've a nasty feeling that it will always be a developing country, unless it goes into reverse and that is not beyond the bounds of possibility!

[hansnl]

How does this compare to day 3 of last year?

Sadly, it probably doesn't 'matter' what the answer is to your question, except to a statistician perhaps, because that's all it is: a statistic. Same, same every year and nothing is likely to change people's behaviour over the Songkran holiday whether the figure is 20%, or even 100% higher than last year. Everyone is aware of the danger on the roads at Songkran and while some take precautions, many simply don't care. It seems that the fun is worth the risk.

I don't believe that the culprit is just alcohol either. Ignorance and over-exuberance are equally to blame. Take for example the case of a pick-up full of people racing along a two lane main highway at 100km passing a motorbike with three kids on it traveling same direction at 60km. The pick-up occupants hurl several buckets of water at the motorbike riders who are caught unaware, wobble and come to a dead halt in the middle of the lane. The car traveling behind the motorbike on this occasion (yesterday) happened to be me and I could hardly see out of the windscreen because of the water that had just been thrown at my car too by the passing pick up. I very nearly slammed into the back of the bike, but luckily I was at a sufficient distance behind to swerve and avoid them. Several people could have died just then. It was 9.00am and I doubt that anyone 'involved' had been drinking. Repeat this scenario a thousand times a day all over Thailand and the odds of a less satisfactory conclusion build up...

Very, very sad for all who are injured. I just don't see anything changing.

There is more to ponder!

I guess that if all holders Thai driving licences had to do a Dutch or German driving test, about 95% would fail!

So many beginners mistakes are made by people driving for years, the only conclusion can be that the driving lessons, if any, were not adequate.

Couple that to the fact that most Thai have no sense/insight of dimension or speed, and there you go.

I am afraid most Thai imagine that where they are there cannot be someone else.

Now put in some alcohol, a mobile phone, some disturbing minor factors, and oops!!!!!!!!

[slapout]

My thai wifes niece moved down under a few years ago, when she came back to Thailand to visit I asked if she had taken and recieved her Aussie driving liscense, The reply, yes after taking the test 12 times I finally passed. She had driven in Thailand for 6 years with a Thai liscense.

[hansnl]

It IS all very, very sad.

Unfortunately each holiday we read comments from the authorities that their target and hope is to have less deaths than the previous year.

If they manage that they consider it somewhat of a success but at what cost. It is merely a statistical success because an enormous number have still died.

We are told 86% who have died so far are motorbike riders and a huge number of deaths are drink related.

I would like to see how many of these died of head injuries and were NOT wearing helmets who may have survived otherwise (very many I bet).

The Thais mostly do not want to wear helmets and are willing to accept being occasionally caught. The Thai law however says they must wear helmets (like them or not)

How to enforce??

It is not good using the UK system of points on the driving licence, or license confiscation because 46% do not have license (or insurance). BUt they all have ID Cards and their record can be recorded in Police computer databanks.

The answer is VERY simple increasing and stiff financial penalties. The drivers understand that one AND the traffic police need as policy to try and stop ALL they see (and not only during "road block purges).

I KNOW it would take up a huge amount of police time INITIALLY (and at first many would escape penalty due to volume of numbers) BUT, as in other countries, once the riders realized they were not getting away with it and increasingly they were being pulled up (anywhere and not only at road blocks) and were having to pay huge amounts in fines they would soon obey the helmet laws (even if for the wrong reasons). This would cause a drop in necessary policing on this issue quickly and the remaining "die hards" would be easy to identify and deal with.

At the same time the police should always check for valid driving licenses and confiscate motorbikes of rider not able to show a valid driving license and ONLY release the bike when one can be shown BY THAT rider. It does not matter (unless stolen) who owns the bike, because bike owners would soon make sure only licensed driver used or borrowed their bikes if they faced confiscation.

Some may feel that harsh but harsh penalties are already in place under Thai law which permit fines AND a maximum prison term of 1 month. Its just that nobody thinks the police and authorities will impose the maximum penalty and they do not - so there is no real deterrent to driving without a license. The truth is, too many Thais do and are allowed to do what they want and not what their own laws demand for theirs and others protection.

Regarding the lack of driving licenses It should not be forgotten that most without a license have never learned the highway code, correct riding techniques, knowledge of road signs or safe handing and road positioning of their motorbikes (hence why nearly every bike rider heavily cuts the corner when turning right AND they have no insurance to pay for damage to others property or medical bills (or their own).

My wife was told by a friend (who asked why she bothered to learn to drive and take her test last week - my wife passed ) and I quote

"Oh I did my test 3 times and failed each time.It was so stupid I did not waste my money any more - I know I can drive well and I don't need the license most do not have them anyway".

I think that sums up the attitude.

Lets face it. The driving tests in all countries do not even mean you are a good safe driver but that you have satisfied the MINIMUM levels of competency to be allowed to drive on the roads with a full driving license. Clearly my wife' friend is a danger to herself and everybody else (and uninsured) her driving test failures PROVE that . Her complacent attitude is almost as dangerous.

May you and all families and friends have a safe and happy remainder of Songkran.

Regards

Dave

This could so easily have been written by me. Accidents will always happen, but it is necessary to ensure that they are minor ones and not major ones.

After every Songkran and New Year for the past 20 years, this being the time I have been in Thailand, successive governments set up committees to find out what went wrong and how to avoid the tragedy the following year. NOTHING EVER HAPPENS!. We are told that everyone must have valid licences and insurance, (which means no kid on motorbikes), helmets must be worn by drivers and passengers, checkpoints will always be set up to stop drunk drivers and speeding, but very little ever happens.

Kids still ride motorbikes year round (some as young as 10) and are allowed to drive them into schools often with 2/3 of their classmates aboard , helmets are rarely worn in rural areas, and most village people do not have driving licences. When caught by police (mainly at the end of the month!) fines are usually 100/200bt, and a blind eye is always turned to the kids driving. Add to all these problems the stupidity and toleration of water throwing and its a wonder the numbers of accidents and fatalities are not even higher.

My village has a checkpoint just before the road enters a major highway. The main town has a checkpoint set up at a traffic light controlled intersection. On the several occasions I have passed these during the past 3 days, the personnel are just sitting around talking, drinking soft drinks, and no doubt waiting for Songkran to finish when they can claim their pay. For what? They seem to do NOTHING!

You will never totally eliminate accidents, but they can be drastically reduced with full law enforcement, and harsh penalties - why not 5000bt for starters, to be doubled upon each additional infringement.

And totally ban water throwing except in public parks etc between consenting adults and children.

I am getting sick and tired of reading post after post, written by expats or tourists or whatever, complaining and criticising the Thai police, the Thai traditions and the resident Thai citizens for behaving in a manner 'they' deem unaceptable. Sure, should that Thai erson/cop/politician person behave like that in the the foreigner's home country then they would be given a good flogging and sent to jail forever, BUT YOU ARE NOT IN YOUR HOME COUNTRY!!!! For gods sake, you are an expat living in a foreign country, get with the program and accept that things happen differently over here. That means differnt rules, different standards and different, well everything. If you can't come to terms with kids driving motorbikes and cops taking backhanders and all the rest of the stuff that goes on in Asia generally, then please bugger off back home and stop anoying the rest of us, who actually quite enjoy it over here.

Please, PLEASE, stop using this site and simlar to vent your phobias, missunderstandings and other culture shock related fears - we know it can be anoying sometimes, and yes, it is confusing and often frustrating, but it's still better than crappy weather, 34% income tax (my backet anyway) and 17.5% VAT.

Incidentally, I went out yesterday in Koh Phangan, on a motorbike, with my 1 year old son. The thais did not throw water in our faces, nobody crashed into us and I didn't get stabbed or shot of done by the police. However,some Thai people did respectfully splash water over us with my blessing (shock horror!!!).

The only people who did throw water in my face as I was driving (slowly and sobely) along were the pissed tourists hanging out of the girly bars in Baan Tai.

I know, sir, I am not in my home country, and yes, I know things go different here, and yes, I like it here too.

But I think venting your shock about a lot of Thai things in this site is exactly where this site is for.

Because of the comments and threads one can get an insight into the differences.

Including your rather st***d comment.

More or less illustrated by taking your 1-year old son on the motorbike with you.

While nobody will ever listen to the comments of a farang, what else have we got to ventilate our frustrations but ThaiVisa?

Happy Songkran everybody, and please go on with all comments!

[Girlaboutglobe]

At the end of the day it'll have to be Thais who change Thailand, if indeed change is desired by the majority at all. It's possible that after enough accumulation of personal tragedy and if the message of "it doesn't have to be that way" is spoken often enough by enough people, falangs and Thai alike, that the majority will eventually come to want change and maybe be willing to do something about it. As it stands there is no pressure whatsoever from those who do see the value in change, and so nothing is done. So much of the senseless and unnecessary things that harm the average Thai people happen because no one seems willing to say, "Wait a minute, that's not fair!" Instead you hear, "It was unavoidable, it's nobody's fault, oh well what can I do, it will all get sorted out in the next life". I've learned a lot from the Thais about "live and let live" and it's helped me to be much less of an uptight Westerner, but to deny the need for personal responsibility and accountability is going too far, that's an extreme viewpoint and is not especially effective. To not speak out is akin to giving a free ticket to those who will selfishly cause harm again and again, and by letting people walk all over you you are partially responsible for them walking all over the next person because you've basically said, "Hey it's okay with me".

I for one am glad that foreigners and Thais can come to Thai Visa and have a place to say, "It's not okay", because at least it's being said somewhere. And most of us here are far safer and more exempt from abuse than the average lower class Thai, most of us are advocating for them, venting frustration on their behalf, and good job for doing it. Freedom? What about the freedom to be safe? What about the freedom to be heard and listened to? Those kinds of freedoms rate higher, with me at least, than the freedom to act like a jerk or a maniac and get away with it regardless of who eats the consequences.

[Galong]

Don't fight life, learn from the Thais, you're in one of the most chill places on the planet. If you can let go of your desire to control, you may find piece of mind.

Where can I vote for the most asinine statement I've heard on this forum in a long, long time. True, there are some things about Thai culture that are impressive, but sorry, anything to do with safety is not. It's called being responsible and not endangering yourself and those around you... especially if it's only for the sake of fun.

"Peace of mind" doesn't have to include the high possibility of death in my book. I don't remember reading anything in either the Pali Canons or the Sutras about being irresponsible to the point of being criminal.

And furthermore, I don't see this as an extremely chilled place. On the contrary, I see it as an extremely competitive dog-eat-dog society where everyone is fighting to get all they can. You must mean in the past or something...

[Nampeung]

Well said Mangostays

[thaibiker]

MANGO IS RIGHT, WE ARE THE GUESTS IN THE COUNTRY AND HAVE TO ACCEPT THE WAY OF LIVING.

I am sick of all complaining tourists and expats about thai people.

If we wouldn't be here, they would live in harmony as farmers, fishermen or whatever.

I am living on samui for 8 years already, the most dangerous place in thailand, regarding to drive a motorbike. I came over here, because i loved to be free and easy and i am still driving the bike without any helmet. I am a real biker and enjoying Thailand.

But we (my lovely thai wife and me) will leave samui this year, because we can't stand it anymore.

The traffic, the roads, the buildings, the greedy people, caused by us, the farangs, who never stop trying to change thai people to become similar to the western way of thinking.

HEY FARANG, IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY TO BE IN THAILAND, JUST BE CONSEQUENT AND MOVE BACK HOME TO YOUR COUNTRY!!!!

But you can't, because you are not able to have a relationship to a western girl, no money, looking ugly, no charme, too fat, too old, just like a stranded guy, looking for help.

If you can identify yourself in my explanations i am feeling sorry for you, if not, i apologize.

HAPPY SONGKHRAN

TOMMY THE GERMAN THAIBIKER!!!

Unfortunately each holiday we read comments from the authorities that their target and hope is to have less deaths than the previous year.

If they manage that they consider it somewhat of a success but at what cost. It is merely a statistical success because an enormous number have still died.

We are told 86% who have died so far are motorbike riders and a huge number of deaths are drink related.

I would like to see how many of these died of head injuries and were NOT wearing helmets who may have survived otherwise (very many I bet).

The Thais mostly do not want to wear helmets and are willing to accept being occasionally caught. The Thai law however says they must wear helmets (like them or not)

How to enforce??

It is not good using the UK system of points on the driving licence, or license confiscation because 46% do not have license (or insurance). BUt they all have ID Cards and their record can be recorded in Police computer databanks.

The answer is VERY simple increasing and stiff financial penalties. The drivers understand that one AND the traffic police need as policy to try and stop ALL they see (and not only during "road block purges).

I KNOW it would take up a huge amount of police time INITIALLY (and at first many would escape penalty due to volume of numbers) BUT, as in other countries, once the riders realized they were not getting away with it and increasingly they were being pulled up (anywhere and not only at road blocks) and were having to pay huge amounts in fines they would soon obey the helmet laws (even if for the wrong reasons). This would cause a drop in necessary policing on this issue quickly and the remaining "die hards" would be easy to identify and deal with.

At the same time the police should always check for valid driving licenses and confiscate motorbikes of rider not able to show a valid driving license and ONLY release the bike when one can be shown BY THAT rider. It does not matter (unless stolen) who owns the bike, because bike owners would soon make sure only licensed driver used or borrowed their bikes if they faced confiscation.

Some may feel that harsh but harsh penalties are already in place under Thai law which permit fines AND a maximum prison term of 1 month. Its just that nobody thinks the police and authorities will impose the maximum penalty and they do not - so there is no real deterrent to driving without a license. The truth is, too many Thais do and are allowed to do what they want and not what their own laws demand for theirs and others protection.

Regarding the lack of driving licenses It should not be forgotten that most without a license have never learned the highway code, correct riding techniques, knowledge of road signs or safe handing and road positioning of their motorbikes (hence why nearly every bike rider heavily cuts the corner when turning right AND they have no insurance to pay for damage to others property or medical bills (or their own).

My wife was told by a friend (who asked why she bothered to learn to drive and take her test last week - my wife passed ) and I quote

"Oh I did my test 3 times and failed each time.It was so stupid I did not waste my money any more - I know I can drive well and I don't need the license most do not have them anyway".

I think that sums up the attitude.

Lets face it. The driving tests in all countries do not even mean you are a good safe driver but that you have satisfied the MINIMUM levels of competency to be allowed to drive on the roads with a full driving license. Clearly my wife' friend is a danger to herself and everybody else (and uninsured) her driving test failures PROVE that . Her complacent attitude is almost as dangerous.

May you and all families and friends have a safe and happy remainder of Songkran.

Regards

Dave

This could so easily have been written by me. Accidents will always happen, but it is necessary to ensure that they are minor ones and not major ones.

After every Songkran and New Year for the past 20 years, this being the time I have been in Thailand, successive governments set up committees to find out what went wrong and how to avoid the tragedy the following year. NOTHING EVER HAPPENS!. We are told that everyone must have valid licences and insurance, (which means no kid on motorbikes), helmets must be worn by drivers and passengers, checkpoints will always be set up to stop drunk drivers and speeding, but very little ever happens.

Kids still ride motorbikes year round (some as young as 10) and are allowed to drive them into schools often with 2/3 of their classmates aboard , helmets are rarely worn in rural areas, and most village people do not have driving licences. When caught by police (mainly at the end of the month!) fines are usually 100/200bt, and a blind eye is always turned to the kids driving. Add to all these problems the stupidity and toleration of water throwing and its a wonder the numbers of accidents and fatalities are not even higher.

My village has a checkpoint just before the road enters a major highway. The main town has a checkpoint set up at a traffic light controlled intersection. On the several occasions I have passed these during the past 3 days, the personnel are just sitting around talking, drinking soft drinks, and no doubt waiting for Songkran to finish when they can claim their pay. For what? They seem to do NOTHING!

You will never totally eliminate accidents, but they can be drastically reduced with full law enforcement, and harsh penalties - why not 5000bt for starters, to be doubled upon each additional infringement.

And totally ban water throwing except in public parks etc between consenting adults and children.

I am getting sick and tired of reading post after post, written by expats or tourists or whatever, complaining and criticising the Thai police, the Thai traditions and the resident Thai citizens for behaving in a manner 'they' deem unaceptable. Sure, should that Thai erson/cop/politician person behave like that in the the foreigner's home country then they would be given a good flogging and sent to jail forever, BUT YOU ARE NOT IN YOUR HOME COUNTRY!!!! For gods sake, you are an expat living in a foreign country, get with the program and accept that things happen differently over here. That means differnt rules, different standards and different, well everything. If you can't come to terms with kids driving motorbikes and cops taking backhanders and all the rest of the stuff that goes on in Asia generally, then please bugger off back home and stop anoying the rest of us, who actually quite enjoy it over here.

Please, PLEASE, stop using this site and simlar to vent your phobias, missunderstandings and other culture shock related fears - we know it can be anoying sometimes, and yes, it is confusing and often frustrating, but it's still better than crappy weather, 34% income tax (my backet anyway) and 17.5% VAT.

Incidentally, I went out yesterday in Koh Phangan, on a motorbike, with my 1 year old son. The thais did not throw water in our faces, nobody crashed into us and I didn't get stabbed or shot of done by the police. However,some Thai people did respectfully splash water over us with my blessing (shock horror!!!).

The only people who did throw water in my face as I was driving (slowly and sobely) along were the pissed tourists hanging out of the girly bars in Baan Tai.

[Girlaboutglobe]

Thaibiker, it's far too easy to say that the evil falang is destroying Thailand and luring them away from their peaceful agrarian traditional lifestyle. No country can live in a bubble, that's just fantasy. Even if we weren't here, television is, and with the presence of the internet and with international companies ready to sell "America" to third world people, it's inevitable. Dreams are nice and all, but reality runs the show.

Regards

[Jbragg]

I agree. This is Thaland. Not the UK or US. I am from the US and of course we do not see these things back there. But this is Thailand and Thai's can only act as thier culture and education level allows them to. Does not make them less then anyone else. Just makes them different. I have lived in many poor countries and see the same in all. Humans will be Humans no matter of race or location. You will have good and you will have bad. For those of us who were born in non 3rd world places. We would not even have a clue the pain and pressures involved in rasing your family in a place such as Thailand. So honestly if you think Thailand is a bad place with bad people. Then move and shut the %$#& up. Some of us love and respect this country and really get tired of watching people bitch about everything even tho they have probally not done one thing to make it a better place. I have lived here for 3+ years and have never had one problem with ill will or disrespect from any Thai. Only problems I have had was with drunk forangs acting stupid because they think Thailand has no laws and everything is for sale. The simple truth is. Treat people as you want them to treat you. Yes you will find a few who do not play by the same rules. But that is earth not Thailand.

[Tony Clifton]

MANGO IS RIGHT, WE ARE THE GUESTS IN THE COUNTRY AND HAVE TO ACCEPT THE WAY OF LIVING.

I am sick of all complaining tourists and expats about thai people.

If we wouldn't be here, they would live in harmony as farmers, fishermen or whatever.

I am living on samui for 8 years already, the most dangerous place in thailand, regarding to drive a motorbike. I came over here, because i loved to be free and easy and i am still driving the bike without any helmet. I am a real biker and enjoying Thailand.

But we (my lovely thai wife and me) will leave samui this year, because we can't stand it anymore.

The traffic, the roads, the buildings, the greedy people, caused by us, the farangs, who never stop trying to change thai people to become similar to the western way of thinking.

HEY FARANG, IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY TO BE IN THAILAND, JUST BE CONSEQUENT AND MOVE BACK HOME TO YOUR COUNTRY!!!!

But you can't, because you are not able to have a relationship to a western girl, no money, looking ugly, no charme, too fat, too old, just like a stranded guy, looking for help.

If you can identify yourself in my explanations i am feeling sorry for you, if not, i apologize.

HAPPY SONGKHRAN

TOMMY THE GERMAN THAIBIKER!!!

Yeah, let's all get back onto our boats loaded with spices and gold and head due West.

Kids, look what happens to your brain when you refuse to wear a helmet.

[Mark Murphy]

We're dealing with a population here in Thailand that is very tightly constrained throughout most of the year by rules and customs so that people have just a very few times each year when they can let loose. Unfortunately alcohol and 0 judgment is usually the form their letting loose takes.

murph