Thai Forest Tradition And Don Juan

[camerata]

While reading the teachings of Ajarn Chah (Food for the Heart) I couldn't help noticing the references to being a "warrior of the heart" and having impeccable actions. This immediately reminded me of Carlos Castaneda's books in the 1970s about the fictitious Yaqui Indian sorcerer named Don Juan, whose main teaching was how to become an "impeccable warrior." I wonder if Castaneda stole some of his ideas from the Thai Forest tradition?

[sabaijai]

I think what you're seeing is an interpretation of Ajahn Chah's words filtered through the translators. Particularly if the translator was Jack Kornfield, who lived as a monk at one or more of Aj Chah's monasteries in the 1970s, that's likely, as Jack himself uses -- or at least he used to -- a lot of Castenada-like terminology in his own teachings. In fact several Western vipassana teachers seem to use Don Juan images in their teachings -- probably a generational artefact as much as anything, as Castenada was big in the 70s.

That's not to fault the translations, which I think are well done and capture the spirit of Aj Chah's teachings very well.

Food for the Heart, along with other Aj Chah materials, are also available online for free at:

Ajahn Chah

[camerata]

It wasn't just the vocabulary in the text I was thinking of. In the long and excellent introduction by Ajarn Amaro (Kornfield just has a brief foreword), he says:

The tone of some of the talks to monastics will, in certain instances, also be seen to be considerably more fierce than those given to the lay community; for example, "Dhamma Fighting." This manner of expression represents something of the "take no prisoners" style that is characteristic of many of the teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition. It is a way of speaking that is intended to rouse the "warrior heart" - that attitude toward spiritual practice that enables one to be ready to endure all hardships and to be wise, patient and faithful, regardless of how difficult things get.

[sabaijai]

I'm pretty sure no Lao or Thai term equivalent to "warrior heart" appears in any of Aj Chah's orginal Lao or Thai text. I think what you're seeing is the influence of Castenada's writings on Aj Amaro, Jack Kornfield, etc, used to interpret Aj Chah's talks.

I could be wrong about that, I've only read a few things by Aj Chah in Thai -- mainly I just know how Kornfield and company teach, having spent a bit of time with that crowd in the USA.

But the chances that Castenada read something by Aj Chah is remote as I don't think much if anything was available when Castenada wrote The Teachings of Don Juan in the late 60s. I'm not saying it can be totally ruled out but IMO it's not very likely.

I'm not casting any aspersions on the way Kornfield, Aj Amaro, etc have interpreted Aj Chah's words for Western audiences. I think they've done a very fine job of preserving the spirit if not every single letter of his teachings. I had the pleasure of spending time with Aj Chah in Ubon in the early 80s, and the way both he & his teachings come across in the various translations accords 100% with the relatively little that I absorbed. The Thai forest tradition is very deep.

[King Of Swords]

While reading the teachings of Ajarn Chah (Food for the Heart) I couldn't help noticing the references to being a "warrior of the heart" and having impeccable actions. This immediately reminded me of Carlos Castaneda's books in the 1970s about the fictitious Yaqui Indian sorcerer named Don Juan, whose main teaching was how to become an "impeccable warrior." I wonder if Castaneda stole some of his ideas from the Thai Forest tradition?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wouldnt have thought so, the Yaqui Indians had/have there own forest tradition as did/do most cultures and the similrarity is in the magical imagination or the collective unconscious of the human race. Food for thought though. blessings, Dom. UK

[wrksysact]

"Food for thought though"

Bloody magic mushrooms.

[mikananda]

please send me the text in thai if u have it... or a link. But, without seeing the manuscript i'd disagree (i love to disagree!)

"jai Su" (ใจสู้) is "fighting heart...." "nak su" is warrior. so someone with a "jai su" you could say is warrior heart....

'jai su' is a common thai expression and a characteristic seemingly prized by most thais.

I have been revisiting Casteneda's books again recently after the better part of last 5 yrs spent upcountry in Thaialnd studying Buddhism and 'buddhist voodoo' traditions. (btw, i am PhD in Engineering...so research and search for true vision of our world is rather in my blood)

it makes my hair stand up, the many conecptual parallels between don Juan and buddhist animism here.

concepts such as "seeing" upon 'stopping the world' (which is the spontaneous KNOWING that arises in the Chitta as a result of stopping one's mind..making it 'still' and 'empty'. of idle/random thoughts), or "The Flyers" (the art of dreaming, i think) which make a very accurate substitution for "Kilesa"...The Defilements. The Flyer make idle/random thoughts arise in our minds, which cause an outburst, a "flare" of emotion/awareness that The Flyer then eats. ...In myown meditative practice i have seen this pattern arise in my own heart again and again... something impels me to have a reaction to a thought that comes up by itself... and that emtional reaction is like a flare emanating from my mind.

so, as an alternative description of the universe we livein .... i think that don Juan is quite valid. perhaps it was all concatenated from other sources (a deep study of shamanic literature at UCLA) or an amalgamation of more than one bruho that Carlos met... who knows... but the more i read and open my mind to see it around me, the more i see... and so the less i can write it off as hoopla.

As the Buddha said, "DON't belive me... go sit and practice yoruself, and see if u have the same experience".... a scientist of the first order. Bravo!

Sathu,

Mike

I'm pretty sure no Lao or Thai term equivalent to "warrior heart" appears in any of Aj Chah's orginal Lao or Thai text. I think what you're seeing is the influence of Castenada's writings on Aj Amaro, Jack Kornfield, etc, used to interpret Aj Chah's talks.

I could be wrong about that, I've only read a few things by Aj Chah in Thai -- mainly I just know how Kornfield and company teach, having spent a bit of time with that crowd in the USA.

But the chances that Castenada read something by Aj Chah is remote as I don't think much if anything was available when Castenada wrote The Teachings of Don Juan in the late 60s. I'm not saying it can be totally ruled out but IMO it's not very likely.

I'm not casting any aspersions on the way Kornfield, Aj Amaro, etc have interpreted Aj Chah's words for Western audiences. I think they've done a very fine job of preserving the spirit if not every single letter of his teachings. I had the pleasure of spending time with Aj Chah in Ubon in the early 80s, and the way both he & his teachings come across in the various translations accords 100% with the relatively little that I absorbed. The Thai forest tradition is very deep.

[IMA_FARANG]

I was around in the late 60's and early 70's as a University student. I read much of the stuff while I was in University. It was a big influence on me at the time.

I'm sorry have to burst your bubble, but much of that stuff was made up by Casteneda. He never met a "Don Juan". Some accounts of his life say he never even went to Mexico. I'm not sure about that, however.

And yes, they do seem to be very similar, but I think any similarity comes from Castenada's imagination. I doubt the "forest monks" in Thailand had anything to do with it, except as they were presumed to be in Casteneda's imagination.

By the way I also read, "The Way of Zen" by Allen Watts at the same time...and I saw a lot of parallels in that to "The Teachings of Don Juan" also.