Security Tightens At Government House To Block Anti-govt Protesters

[Plus]

I used Rwanda to point out that the majority is not always right, and when the majority goes on rampage it must be stopped, it's not the time to worry about electoral rights.

Tirayuth Boonmee is in the Nation today, the title is "National crisis is looming".

"Theerayuth says this time "even a military coup may not be able to contain such a situation".

Like in Rwanda, soon there will be no one left to stop the violence. Local governments are not only in the position to do so, they lead and direct support the violence themselves, and central government has never had complete control of those areas, even if sane people somehow can make it to the government in the first place. For now the government sends congratilations instead.

[sriracha john]

Additional international media attention for Thailand... which is what international organizations bring out when the speak of Thailand...

Rights group calls on Thai govt to protect protestors from attack

BANGKOK - A leading rights group on Saturday called for Thailand's authorities to protect political protesters from attacks by pro-government groups after several were hurt in violent clashes.

New York-based Human Rights Watch said pro-government groups have clashed with supporters of the anti-government so-called People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) at about a dozen rallies across Thailand since May. On Thursday, about 40 protesters were reportedly injured in the northeastern Udon Thani province in the most serious incident so far.

Human Rights Watch said police stood idly by while the attacks occurred.

"Thai authorities have failed to protect their citizens' basic right to peaceful assembly," said Elaine Pearson, Deputy Asia Director at Human Rights Watch.

"By allowing pro-government thugs free rein to unleash violence, the authorities are putting Thailand's fragile democracy at risk," she said, calling on the violence to be investigated and its perpetrators prosecuted.

Some 1,000 members of the pro-government Khon Rak Udon Club broke up a peaceful PAD rally in a park in Muang district of Udon Thani on Thursday. A local radio station, 97.5FM, reportedly incited the pro-government supporters who were said to be armed with swords, axes, knives, iron clubs, wooden clubs, and slingshots, Human Rights Watch said.

Witnesses said some 500 police and local defence volunteers made no effort to stop the violence or make arrests.

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej has faced street protests across the country since May. The PAD accuses the government of abuse of power and being unpatriotic, as well as acting as a proxy for deposed premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who is on trial for corruption.

- AFP (today)

[sriracha john]

Injured protesters to meet press, Interior minister urged to resign

BANGKOK, July 27 (TNA) - Somkiat Pongpaiboon, a core leader of the anti-government People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), will visit protesters who were injured in a clash with pro-government activists in northeastern Udon Thani province, according to another PAD core leader.

PAD Core leader retired Maj. Gen. Chamlong Srimuang on Sunday said Mr. Somkiat, also a member of the opposition Democrat Party, would bring the injured demonstrators to a press conference in Bangkok Monday morning.

The injured will then lodge complaints to Thai and United Nations-related human rights agencies, Gen. Chamlong said.

Hundreds of protestors from the so-called 'Udon Lover Group' on Thursday stormed into a PAD-led rally in Udon Thani and demolished its stage. Some chased and beat PAD adherents in Udon. A similar event occurred in the nearby province of Buriram.

Udon Thani Governor Supoj Laowansiri on Friday expressed concern at the violence, saying that 15 persons were injured in the melee. However, he said no one was beaten to death as earlier reported, but four of the injured were hospitalized.

Meanwhile, a deputy spokesman of the opposition Democrat Party, urged Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej to take stern action against the attackers and demanded that Interior Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung accept responsibility and resign from his post.

The Interior Minister is responsible for maintaining peace but he had instead created divisiveness among the public, said Mr. Sathit Pitutecha.

[sriracha john]

More international involvement and the attention that goes with it...

Injured protester seeks UN help

PAD claims government has done nothing to bring Udon Thani culprits to justice

A man who was injured in last week's clash between pro- and anti-government protesters in Udon Thani will seek United Nations help in investigating the incident, People's Alliance for Democracy co-leader Suriyasai Katasila said yesterday.

Thanyanan Jarunjirawongse will appear at a press conference today to tell what really happened.

He will then submit a petition to the UN, asking the agency to intervene and investigate the incident and take action against the government for allowing pro-government protesters to attack anti-government demonstrators.

Since the clash, the government had done nothing to investigate and take legal action against the culprits, Suriyasai said.

Meanwhile, the Senate Committee on Human Rights will today demand the government be accountable for its lapse of duty relating to the clash in Udon Thani.

"The Prime Minister, the Interior Minister, the National Police Chief and the Provincial Police Chief should take turns at the hearing and tell what each has done in response to the violent incident," Senator Naruemol Siriwat said yesterday.

Naruemol said the prime minister should hold a press conference to acknowledge his failure to safeguard human rights as sanctioned by the Constitution with the same fanfare as when he announced six relief measures to cope with economic woes.

The PAD meanwhile criticised the PM for neglecting to resolve many violent clashes.

Many leading figures voiced concern that the clashes might spiral out of control, deepening the political polarisation. PAD-led protesters were attacked by their opponents in Udon Thani, Maha Sarakham and Chiang Rai.

PAD leader Somsak Kosaisuk said he was disappointed that Samak Sundaravej skirted the issue during his weekly programme "Talking Samak Style".

"Samak failed to mention the horrible violent incident in Udon Thani where so many people sustained serious injuries. This is like he is tacitly condoning the thugs," Somsak said.

*from the Samak Elected thread*

Another Sunday, Another Samak TV Show.... and things are just curiouser and curiouser...

Samak talks nothing about politics

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej Sunday refrained from hitting back at his opponents and did not mention politics at all during his weekly talk program.

He ended his Talk Samak Style program on NBT Channel at 9:32 am without mentioning politics.

He spent the entire programme discussing the Thai-language.

"Today, I didn't talk about politics but I talked what I really wanted to," Samak smilingly ended his programme.

- The Nation

===============================================================

has the aneurysm finally sprung?

Another PAD leader, Pipop Thongchai, said the thugs who attacked PAD-led protesters were politically motivated and organised by MPs from the People Power Party. "The government should assume responsibility for the eruption of violence, but Samak maintains his silence as if he is trying to encourage a perception that the majority of the people oppose the PAD," he said. He said he suspected certain soldiers were involved in the Udon Thani incident and he called on the Army Chief to look into the matter.

Interior Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung said he would carry on with his work even though his critics called for his resignation on grounds of failing to prevent violent clashes. Chalerm said he instructed every provincial governor and law enforcement authorities to remain vigilant.

Democrat Party assistant secretary-general Thepthai Senpong said the prime minister was risking an increase in instability if his elected government failed to be an anchor to safeguard peace.

People Power Party spokesman Kudhep Saikrachang said his party was not a root cause of the present political predicament. Kudep said Thammasat University lecturer Thirayuth Boonmi had a lopsided view to blame his party for the unstable situation. He said Thirayuth had gone overboard by predicting a civil war. Political normalcy can be restored should the PAD review its stance, he added. "Street protests should not be a problem if there is no ulterior motive to move into areas filled with opponents," he said, hinting that the PAD might try to provoke violence.

He said Democrat Party secretary-general Suthep Thaugsuban brought up a groundless allegation that the PPP paid up to Bt30 million per incident to instigate the attacks against the PAD. He said the PPP did not condone violence, adding there was no link between the party and local politician Uthai Saenkaew, who is a younger brother of Deputy Agriculture Minister Thirachai Saenkaew. Uthai was seen at the Udon Thani incident.

- The Nation

[Scott]

What the H*ll is going on? Now the PAD are going to run to the UN. First Cambodia goes to the UN (Security Council, no less), now this rag-tag group is next. Just what do they think the UN can do?

[sriracha john]

Provide protection that the police can't or won't?

[younghusband]

I used Rwanda to point out that the majority is not always right, and when the majority goes on rampage it must be stopped, it's not the time to worry about electoral rights.

Tirayuth Boonmee is in the Nation today, the title is "National crisis is looming".

"Theerayuth says this time "even a military coup may not be able to contain such a situation".

Like in Rwanda, soon there will be no one left to stop the violence. Local governments are not only in the position to do so, they lead and direct support the violence themselves, and central government has never had complete control of those areas, even if sane people somehow can make it to the government in the first place. For now the government sends congratilations instead.

There is an enormous difference between saying the majority is not always right and denying that the majority should have the right to vote in the government of its choice.First of all I would entirely agree with your initial proposition not only that minority opinions should be respected but that on occasion majority opinions are simply a form of tyranny.It's why a proper system of checks and balances is always essential, and I don't in principle disagree with some form of limited nomination for the Senate.Furthermore members of parliament should vote with their consciences not just blindly reflect the wishes of their constituents.Of course party discipline plays a role but MPs shouldn't just be lobby fodder and should think for themselves.And yet from time time they must submit themselves to elections and by definition majority opinion.The PAD "new politics" makes a mockery of these basic principles because at heart they do not trust the Thai people - too ignorant, too corruptible, too ill educated et etc etc in the depressing mantra of the elite.What is completely lacking is a generosity of spirit towards the majority that diverse leaders such as Lincoln or Churchill embraced.And yes behind PAD stands an array of vested interests that is keen to preserve the status quo which has made Thailand one of the most unequal societies on earth.

[sriracha john]

Things getting even more murkier...

Democrats want action over violence

Leader of Udon mob a paid government official

The Democrat Party has demanded the government bring those behind last week's violence in Udon Thani to justice and remove Interior Minister Chalerm Yubamrung from the Cabinet. Democrat executive Sathit Pitutecha said the government had taken no action against those involved in the attack on the PAD rally by members of the Khon Rak Udon (Lovers of Udon) Club. PM Samak must take responsibility for the incident in which scores of people were injured, the opposition MP said. The Democrat Party demanded the government strictly enforce the law by bringing offenders to court and remove Chalerm from the cabinet. Police must perform their duty by taking action against the offenders without waiting for a green light from the government. Mr Sathit lashed out at Chalerm for his recent remarks in Chiang Rai province, saying he was trying to cause divisions in society. Mr Sathit said Samak had ignored the clash in Udon Thani. Senator Nareumol Siriwat, spokeswoman for the Senate panel on human rights, liberty and consumer protection, also urged the government to show responsibility over the clash in Udon Thani. A source said local radio host Kwanchai Paipana, who led members of the Khon Rak Udon Club against the PAD demonstrators, was a political official appointed by the Samak government. According to the government website, http://www.thaigov.go.th, the Cabinet on May 6 approved the appointment of 12 people as political officials attached to the PM's Secretariat Office. Kwanchai Sarakham, also known as Kwanchai Paipana, was among those appointees. It was reported that Deputy Agriculture Minister Theerachai Saenkaew had proposed Kwanchai for the post. The source said those political officials were equivalent to C-8 officials and would receive a monthly salary of 27,000 baht each.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/280708_News/28Jul2008_news010.php

Edited July 28, 2008 by sriracha john

[^_^]

PAD just did a Live Interview on ASTV News1 with those whom were attacked-injured at the Udon PAD Rally.

There are still a couple of the more seriously injured still in hospital.

More than a couple of them confirmed that there were dead body(s) at the clash in Udon, but the body(s) went missing after. The PAD Leaders are still investigating to find out where has those body(s) gone.

Furthermore, they confirmed that the Police in Udon is involved in setting them up for the attack by the Udon Lovers.

Last, they currently have more video-footage as evidence and these new evidence seems to connect Chalerm's involvement in the Udon Lovers attack. By the way, they would relesae the new video-evidence after they had confirmed it's integrity.

[sriracha john]

Kwanchai Phraipana (left) and an unidentified rabble-rouser

Udon Thani group leaders submit to charges

Leader of the Udon Thani Enthusiasts Kwanchai Phraipana, accompanied by Uthai Saenkaew, brother of Deputy Agriculture Minister Theerachai Saenkaew, have traveled to hear charges of assault and destruction of property amongst others at the provincial police headquarters.

Over 500 supporters were present with flowers as Kwanchai was received by Udon Thani Governor Supoj Laowunsiri and Provincial Police Commander, Police Major General Permsak Paradonsak.

The province's Governor stated that though demonstrations and rallies are constitutionally entitled rights they must not cause harm or damage to the state or the individual.

He said that the past violent event on the 24th of July merits that Kwanchai and Uthai be processed to the utmost of the law.

- ThaiNews

Edited July 28, 2008 by sriracha john

[hammered]

More international involvement and the attention that goes with it...

Injured protester seeks UN help

PAD claims government has done nothing to bring Udon Thani culprits to justice

A man who was injured in last week's clash between pro- and anti-government protesters in Udon Thani will seek United Nations help in investigating the incident, People's Alliance for Democracy co-leader Suriyasai Katasila said yesterday.

Thanyanan Jarunjirawongse will appear at a press conference today to tell what really happened.

He will then submit a petition to the UN, asking the agency to intervene and investigate the incident and take action against the government for allowing pro-government protesters to attack anti-government demonstrators.

Since the clash, the government had done nothing to investigate and take legal action against the culprits, Suriyasai said.

Meanwhile, the Senate Committee on Human Rights will today demand the government be accountable for its lapse of duty relating to the clash in Udon Thani.

"The Prime Minister, the Interior Minister, the National Police Chief and the Provincial Police Chief should take turns at the hearing and tell what each has done in response to the violent incident," Senator Naruemol Siriwat said yesterday.

Naruemol said the prime minister should hold a press conference to acknowledge his failure to safeguard human rights as sanctioned by the Constitution with the same fanfare as when he announced six relief measures to cope with economic woes.

The PAD meanwhile criticised the PM for neglecting to resolve many violent clashes.

Many leading figures voiced concern that the clashes might spiral out of control, deepening the political polarisation. PAD-led protesters were attacked by their opponents in Udon Thani, Maha Sarakham and Chiang Rai.

PAD leader Somsak Kosaisuk said he was disappointed that Samak Sundaravej skirted the issue during his weekly programme "Talking Samak Style".

"Samak failed to mention the horrible violent incident in Udon Thani where so many people sustained serious injuries. This is like he is tacitly condoning the thugs," Somsak said.

*from the Samak Elected thread*

Another Sunday, Another Samak TV Show.... and things are just curiouser and curiouser...

Samak talks nothing about politics

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej Sunday refrained from hitting back at his opponents and did not mention politics at all during his weekly talk program.

He ended his Talk Samak Style program on NBT Channel at 9:32 am without mentioning politics.

He spent the entire programme discussing the Thai-language.

"Today, I didn't talk about politics but I talked what I really wanted to," Samak smilingly ended his programme.

- The Nation

===============================================================

has the aneurysm finally sprung?

Another PAD leader, Pipop Thongchai, said the thugs who attacked PAD-led protesters were politically motivated and organised by MPs from the People Power Party. "The government should assume responsibility for the eruption of violence, but Samak maintains his silence as if he is trying to encourage a perception that the majority of the people oppose the PAD," he said. He said he suspected certain soldiers were involved in the Udon Thani incident and he called on the Army Chief to look into the matter.

Interior Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung said he would carry on with his work even though his critics called for his resignation on grounds of failing to prevent violent clashes. Chalerm said he instructed every provincial governor and law enforcement authorities to remain vigilant.

Democrat Party assistant secretary-general Thepthai Senpong said the prime minister was risking an increase in instability if his elected government failed to be an anchor to safeguard peace.

People Power Party spokesman Kudhep Saikrachang said his party was not a root cause of the present political predicament. Kudep said Thammasat University lecturer Thirayuth Boonmi had a lopsided view to blame his party for the unstable situation. He said Thirayuth had gone overboard by predicting a civil war. Political normalcy can be restored should the PAD review its stance, he added. "Street protests should not be a problem if there is no ulterior motive to move into areas filled with opponents," he said, hinting that the PAD might try to provoke violence.

He said Democrat Party secretary-general Suthep Thaugsuban brought up a groundless allegation that the PPP paid up to Bt30 million per incident to instigate the attacks against the PAD. He said the PPP did not condone violence, adding there was no link between the party and local politician Uthai Saenkaew, who is a younger brother of Deputy Agriculture Minister Thirachai Saenkaew. Uthai was seen at the Udon Thani incident.

- The Nation

It is interesting that the PPP like the TRT before them never condemn the violent atcs when it is in the name of those who support them. Now one can only wondder how the PPP would have reacted if the violence had been carried out by the PAD against their people and had been internationally condemned by HRW.

One wonders if this government spokesperson will also claim that the 3 PPP MPs, who went to give moral support to the mob after the attack, are also not connected to the government in any way.

One would expect a government spokesperson in a democratic country to spend more time condemning violent acts against peaceful demonstrators than the amount of effort spent trying to rebut the claims of an academic who is critical of thegovernment. Sadly it seems as now being noted by international news organizations and HRW that the very acts of the Thai government are now putting Thai democracy at risk.

[sriracha john]

MFA says PAD filed complaint with UN Human Rights Commission

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) disclosed that the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) has filed a complaint with the United Nations that the government used force against the protesters.

Deputy Director-General of the Information Department, Thani Thongpakdee reported that PAD has submitted a letter to UN Commission on Human Rights, requesting it to inspect the alleged use of force with the protestors. He also expressed his concern that PAD’s complaint will affect the country’s image.

Mr Thani also says the UN Commission on Human Rights will inspect information submitted by PAD and request for more information from the Thai government to verify whether PAD’s claim is true.

- ThaiNews

[sriracha john]

These repentant gang leaders have really learned their lesson and are sure to amend their ways.......

Kwanchai Phraipana (left)

Udon Thani group affirms it will not desist from clashing with PAD

Udon Thani Enthusiasts Group leaders Kwanchai Phraipana and Uthai Saenkaew emerged from over 2 hours of questioning by police concerning a recent clash with the People's Alliance for Democracy.

Both leaders assured that they had only traveled to meet police as a sign of their innocence and both were released without bail or collateral.

The leaders denied police claims that they were unlawful and have threatened to counter sue such claims as well as warning that they will not cease to defy the PAD and attempt to deny them from rallying in Udon Thani.

Provincial Police Commander, Police Major General Permsark Paradornsak said that the two men have been processed according to law and have received all charges against them. *which is to say, none*

- ThaiNews

=============================================================================

In light of the above, it's no wonder that help and and protection and justice is sought from the outside, eg. United Nations.

[Plus]

...What is completely lacking is a generosity of spirit towards the majority....

PAD members are being clubbed to death and elected government leaders line up to congratulate the attackers and you talk about lack of "generosity". Have you completely lost your mind?

They have been generous after the elections, btw. They came to the streets only when they run out of their goodwill and there were no more benefit of doubt left. You can say it was premature, but it's the same government that is responsible for the latest violence, they didn't turn bad just last Thursday.

[younghusband]

...What is completely lacking is a generosity of spirit towards the majority....

PAD members are being clubbed to death and elected government leaders line up to congratulate the attackers and you talk about lack of "generosity". Have you completely lost your mind?

They have been generous after the elections, btw. They came to the streets only when they run out of their goodwill and there were no more benefit of doubt left. You can say it was premature, but it's the same government that is responsible for the latest violence, they didn't turn bad just last Thursday.

As you well know I was talking about the overarching PAD agenda, not the street violence in Udon.

[sriracha john]

It's a start... the actual specific charges and follow-up actions will be the proof in the pudding...

Police to take action over Udon Thani clash

Udon Thani police will take action against two leaders of last week's attack on supporters of the People's Alliance for Democracy during their anti-government rally, the provincial police chief said Monday.

Maj General Permsak Paradon, the Udon Thani police commissioner, told a press conference that an initial investigation found that Kwanchai Sarakham (also known as Kwanchai Phraipana) and Uthai Saenkaew led troublemakers who stormed into the PAD rally at a park in the northeastern province last Thursday.

Uthai is a younger brother of Deputy Agriculture Minister Theerachai Saenkaew from the ruling People Power Party.

- The Nation

[Plus]

I bet overarching PAD agenda is way down the list after Udon.

"New politics" doesn't mean disrespect towards the majority, it can be simply redrawing constituencies. For now they are only geographically based, PAD wants to add proffesional/social groups, too. In the end people might get to vote twice - for the guy from the neighborhood and for the guy from your Union or Women's Bitching Club or whatever.

There's nothing undemocratic in this approach, I guess you main objection is to appointing these people, not them being in parlament per se. The "appointing" can be done through voting, too, in multi steps or some other way, and with strict and transparent cretiria for applicants.

It might work, theoretically.

Why don't you look at PAD's proposal from this angle - to allow better representation for ALL sectors of society?

Afterall even you agree that consituency based MPs do not represent anyone but themselves and their sponsors.

[younghusband]

I bet overarching PAD agenda is way down the list after Udon.

"New politics" doesn't mean disrespect towards the majority, it can be simply redrawing constituencies. For now they are only geographically based, PAD wants to add proffesional/social groups, too. In the end people might get to vote twice - for the guy from the neighborhood and for the guy from your Union or Women's Bitching Club or whatever.

There's nothing undemocratic in this approach, I guess you main objection is to appointing these people, not them being in parlament per se. The "appointing" can be done through voting, too, in multi steps or some other way, and with strict and transparent cretiria for applicants.

It might work, theoretically.

Why don't you look at PAD's proposal from this angle - to allow better representation for ALL sectors of society?

Afterall even you agree that consituency based MPs do not represent anyone but themselves and their sponsors.

Actually I don't have too many problems in principle with this.It's probably worth pointing out the obvious that Thailand must have a democratic model which suits its culture and traditions, not just to blindly follow the Westminster or American system.But at the end of the day there must be the recognition that the majority party has the final say.Remember they can always be turfed out if they screw up.As I have said many times before this discussion is very very old and any student of 19th century Britain will have seen your type of argument (including double representation forOxbridge grads!) replicated over and over again.You would probably be stunned to know how much I sympathise but the democracy juggernaut can't be stopped just delayed.The urgent need therefore is for education of the majority and a less selfish attitude from the elite.

[Plus]

Remember they can always be turfed out if they screw up.

Don't forget that they can hang on indefinitely, too. There are plenty of examples, starting from Zimbabwe.

In the end of the day the voice of the majority will prevail, ... maybe. We are not at the end of the day, though.

Also, if you are so confident in the outcome, why oppose current developments in principle? They are trying to improve the system, eventually they'll get there, right?

Your argument that it has been tried before is valid, but it HAS BEEN tried, you wouldn't be where you are now if not for those debates back in 19th century. Maybe Thailand is 200 years behind but it still must learn these lessons, sooner or later.

PAD is more concerned with people getting proper representation rather than with methods to achieve that. You and many others raise objection to methods, not the goals. It can be reconciled, at least theoretically. PAD motivation here is not to rob people of power, rather give it to them via different means.

[Meerkat]

Let's take it to an extreme. How about a lesbian rice farmer who also makes money from land rental? Would she get votes for agri, property, women's and gay's constituencies, as well as her geo one too? Would she be made to choose only one "specialist MP" to represent her views, and not be allowed to vote for any others?

You see the only way for "representation for ALL sectors of society" is for everybody to represent themselves - something I think you'd agree is preposterous. And the selection process itself is fraught with complications. If they are appointed by another body then of course that is open to abuse. We already have almost half the Senate appointed by judges who themselves are affirmed by the Senate itself. If, instead of selection, there is a limited "election" process to work out who is eligible for the larger elections, the level of complication becomes absurd - and expensive. The only area where there might be a potential case for specialist representatives would be to replace the already arbitrarily appointed Senators, but certainly not in the Lower House.

I haven't even touched on how the weighting of seats for the different sectors should be determined - another huge area of contention.

I agree that constituency MPs are behoven to their sponsors' interests, but how would that be any different with functional constituencies? You reckon the agri constituency wouldn't be "owned" by the richest companies in that sector for instance? It certainly wouldn't put a stop to lobbying either.

Geographical constituencies are the best "fudge" to try and make sure that each vote is as important as the next. Not perfect I grant you, but it is as important that a system of government be workable as it is representative. Geographical constituencies' overriding pervasiveness throughout the many forms of democracy globally should be indicative that centuries of history tell us that they are the best choice.

The reality of the situation is that were a party more to the PAD's liking in power, the proposal wouldn't have even come up. It is solely because elections and a coup have been unable to uninstall Sondhi's opponents from government that increasingly far-fetched notions of "democracy" must be dreamt up to try and make a system whereby a minority can govern the majority. The goal is disenfranchisement by any other name.

[Tony Clifton]

A mysterious group of a few hundred has apparently showed up at the PAD rally around 5 am this morning and are still around.

[jumnien]

"The reality of the situation is that were a party more to the PAD's liking in power, the proposal wouldn't have even come up. It is solely because elections and a coup have been unable to uninstall Sondhi's opponents from government that increasingly far-fetched notions of "democracy" must be dreamt up to try and make a system whereby a minority can govern the majority. The goal is disenfranchisement by any other name. "

Meerkat, it looks like you hit the nail on the head! Spot on!

[Plus]

it is as important that a system of government be workable as it is representative.

The current system is neither workable, no representative.

Your lesbian rice farmer living off rented land will get to vote four times, what's the problem?

It is complex, no doubt about it, and all sectors of society are not going to be represented equally, and there will be debates about proportions of unions vs lesbians and so on.

Let's make one thing clear first - there's no way "new politics" is going to become a reality under present conditions, it's all only hypothetical.

Now, back to representation - they can set criteria for getting any number of seats for any interest group. Every couple of years the performance of the current members and new applications reviewed and considered. More vocal and active groups get more seats, less active and redundant once lose their seats. I don't think it's too difficult to design KPI indices for legislators.

Let evolution run its course.

[hammered]

I bet overarching PAD agenda is way down the list after Udon.

"New politics" doesn't mean disrespect towards the majority, it can be simply redrawing constituencies. For now they are only geographically based, PAD wants to add proffesional/social groups, too. In the end people might get to vote twice - for the guy from the neighborhood and for the guy from your Union or Women's Bitching Club or whatever.

There's nothing undemocratic in this approach, I guess you main objection is to appointing these people, not them being in parlament per se. The "appointing" can be done through voting, too, in multi steps or some other way, and with strict and transparent cretiria for applicants.

It might work, theoretically.

Why don't you look at PAD's proposal from this angle - to allow better representation for ALL sectors of society?

Afterall even you agree that consituency based MPs do not represent anyone but themselves and their sponsors.

Actually I don't have too many problems in principle with this.It's probably worth pointing out the obvious that Thailand must have a democratic model which suits its culture and traditions, not just to blindly follow the Westminster or American system.But at the end of the day there must be the recognition that the majority party has the final say.Remember they can always be turfed out if they screw up.As I have said many times before this discussion is very very old and any student of 19th century Britain will have seen your type of argument (including double representation forOxbridge grads!) replicated over and over again.You would probably be stunned to know how much I sympathise but the democracy juggernaut can't be stopped just delayed.The urgent need therefore is for education of the majority and a less selfish attitude from the elite.

This is the most important point for politcal devlopment and for any development of democracy or the country in a positive way imho. One of the problems is that those with entrenched power across the poltical spectrum are pretty much agreed that more eductaion equals a change in things and hence have little incentive to reform the eductaion system. To date even little attempts at reform have failed. Attempts to provide 12 years of free education to all were dumbed down by making it form the non-compulsory KG1 up to only M3 thereby continuing to restrict university entrance to only those who could afford the extra education from M4 to M6. The divide in what is taught rurally to what is taught in towns is immense as is quality and educational advice in rural areas is virtually zero leading parents to asume that if their children can get to M3 they are well qualified because they have three more years edcuation than they themselves received. The factory sweatshops are full of those who went to look for well paid work with their "better qualification" only to find things weren exactly as they thought. Some do indeed better themselves later throught the non-formal education system but this is considered as second rate by most employers and even providers of further tertairy education. And there we find another problem in the attitude of employers to require degrees for even many basic clerical jobs not to mention certain jobes being out of reach of anyone with darker skin or anyone consdiered "unattractive" or some that those who wear glasses cannot get, and so on. Better education will provide better opportunity but it will still be an opportunity that needs to be seized and that leads to hopefully in the future actual grassroots involvement directly in politics to influence for the future rather than just to rely on the local or regional or national saviour on a white horse who will dish out a few favours but without long term plan or even intent.

There is also a need for government to take education more seriously and appointing heavyweight and suitably qualified ministers into all ministries related to education. This becomes especially true as universities increasingly become moneey making machines more interested in attracting high paying Chinese and other foreign students to fill the university coffers quick courses rather than trying to improve the academic standards of the institution. This becomes especially true as quality teachers are drained into high paying private schools. This becomes especially true as well known and high quality state schools are just filled with those who can pay not jsut the cheap tuition but also the donation to build the new swimming pool or fund the teachers week long educational shopping (sorry I mean study trip) to Beijing even if it means buying a condo the family dioesnt really need to avoid some annoying little catchment area rule. This becomes more and more important as the whole education system becomes more and more mired in a huge and utterly non-productive but poltically powerful bureaucracy at local, regional and national levels. This becomes more and more important as less and less is actually taught in a classroom and more and more kids and parents learn that to get good grades and do well on entrance vast quantities need to be spent by them on tutor schools that always seem to be run by some relative of a teacher in the school and who always seem to have remarkably accurate information on what is coming up on a test. I could go on but....

There is desperate need for quality education for all but to date nobody at all has shown a willingness to really address this issue and unfortunatley the very MPs who people elect are often the very people who do not want greater education for those who vote for them. The best hope may be that Thailand has gone beyond being a cheap labour manufacturing state and now needs a greater supply of skilled and semi-skilled workers. This economic reality may be the catalyst to overcome resistance to this that exists across most of the political spectrum right now.

[blaze]

Let's take it to an extreme. How about a lesbian rice farmer who also makes money from land rental? Would she get votes for agri, property, women's and gay's constituencies, as well as her geo one too? Would she be made to choose only one "specialist MP" to represent her views, and not be allowed to vote for any others?

You see the only way for "representation for ALL sectors of society" is for everybody to represent themselves - something I think you'd agree is preposterous. And the selection process itself is fraught with complications. If they are appointed by another body then of course that is open to abuse. We already have almost half the Senate appointed by judges who themselves are affirmed by the Senate itself. If, instead of selection, there is a limited "election" process to work out who is eligible for the larger elections, the level of complication becomes absurd - and expensive. The only area where there might be a potential case for specialist representatives would be to replace the already arbitrarily appointed Senators, but certainly not in the Lower House.

I haven't even touched on how the weighting of seats for the different sectors should be determined - another huge area of contention.

I agree that constituency MPs are behoven to their sponsors' interests, but how would that be any different with functional constituencies? You reckon the agri constituency wouldn't be "owned" by the richest companies in that sector for instance? It certainly wouldn't put a stop to lobbying either.

Geographical constituencies are the best "fudge" to try and make sure that each vote is as important as the next. Not perfect I grant you, but it is as important that a system of government be workable as it is representative. Geographical constituencies' overriding pervasiveness throughout the many forms of democracy globally should be indicative that centuries of history tell us that they are the best choice.

The reality of the situation is that were a party more to the PAD's liking in power, the proposal wouldn't have even come up. It is solely because elections and a coup have been unable to uninstall Sondhi's opponents from government that increasingly far-fetched notions of "democracy" must be dreamt up to try and make a system whereby a minority can govern the majority. The goal is disenfranchisement by any other name.

Excellent post Meerkat-

Edited July 29, 2008 by blaze

[Plus]

..a less selfish attitude from the elite.

Oh come on, why is that elites fault again? Why not look at the the politicians who has ruled this country for nearly eight years already (minus the junta)?

[Jai Dee]

Udorn Thani group leader resigns from government post, promises to pursue PAD to fullest

Leader of the Udorn Thani Enthusiasts group Kwanchai Phraipana (ขวัญชัย ไพรพนา) has declared his resignation from his government post as an employee of the Office of the Secretary-General of the Prime Minister. Mr. Kwanchai received the position 2 months ago from a Cabinet decision but stated today that he will resign from the post as so that his activity with the Udorn Thani Enthusiasts will not affect his job.

Mr. Kwanchai's resignation follows his receiving of charges from police based on a violent clash between his group and the People's Alliance for Democracy. He said that his resignation will allow him to fully pursue the PAD and deal with them on equal terms. Mr. Kwanchai was one of 12 employees of the office.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 July 2008

[hammered]

..a less selfish attitude from the elite.

Oh come on, why is that elites fault again? Why not look at the the politicians who has ruled this country for nearly eight years already (minus the junta)?

The politicians who have ruled this country for the past eight years including the Junta geriatrics and the Thaksinistas part one two and three are all part of the elite;)

[Plus]

Oh, I thought Thaskin was waging the war on the elites. Maybe I've read too many Thaigene's posts.

[Moonrakers]

Oh, I thought Thaskin was waging the war on the elites. Maybe I've read too many Thaigene's posts.

I think he was in a way, likely in the same way that he vowed to stamp out corruption.