Should Ex-pats Be So Critical Of Thailand

[garro]

Oh and Guesthouse, in regards to your claim that you have never seen a post which suggested that all Thai women are prostitutes. Maybe you should look harder. I didn't even try to look, but found one straight away;

Thai women dont like farang they just like their money.

I couldn't take a wife who only wanted an easy life and a free ride but really all she is waiting for is me to die so she can go home and make a house and marry the thai she has always told me is her little brother or cousin.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Farang-Kon-Thai-t199213.html

Was this comment so easy to find due to mere chance - I just happened to find the one type of comment like this on the forum?

Or is this type of comment made so frequently that you can't help but run across them.

While something of a bitter view of Thai women, it falls short of calling anyone a prostitute.

Maybe you are a tad too sensitive on this issue.

Too sensitive?

I don't really understand what you are getting at.

If this type of comment was made against any group then I would think it would be fair to mention it.

I mentioned it this time to highlight that this type of comment occurs regularly on this forum.

I doubt this comment would gain much tolerance if it was aimed at other groups of women.

[GuestHouse]

I am sorry that after reading my many posts on this thread that you thought I wanted people to leave their brains at the airport. I obviously wasn't clear enough. I was actually advocating that people use their brains before publishing every thought in their head on the internet.

And perhaps before posting 'Polls' too.

[garro]

I am sorry that after reading my many posts on this thread that you thought I wanted people to leave their brains at the airport. I obviously wasn't clear enough. I was actually advocating that people use their brains before publishing every thought in their head on the internet.

And perhaps before posting 'Polls' too.

How droll - although I'm sure that wasn't your intention.

I have found this poll to be very interesting, and it has further informed me about other people's opinions here.

Not that it matters that much at the end of the day.

I am sorry you don't seem to approve.

[sgtpeppers]

someone should start a new poll "should expats be so critical of Garro" ?

[ricardofel]

I am married to a lovely Thai with a new baby, living in Chiangmai. It is hard to not say anything especially when their is such incompetence going on....BUT Bangkok Post seems to be doing a good job of telling their english readers about all the stupid politicians, especially Samak...reminds me of George Bush...although GB is worse. I pay my taxes, own a big house, we own land in Buriram growing organic rice and land in Huahin.....I send emails to postbag: some have been published..."complaining" about the incompetence....it does make me feel a tiny bit better. Chiangmai has much to complain about especially the lack of environmental concerns...will complaining make a difference..unlikely....hopefully I can make a difference, in a small way, on a personal level by getting involved in environmental concerns. Thailand is a democratic society....right....freedom of speech...just be subtle in your complaining. rolleyes: .

[Pierrot]

Sorry PB but we seem to be talking about different things. I am talking about the constant barage of negative comments about Thailand. If the posts were more connected with individual occurences or people it would be more understandable, but I am talking about the frequent derogotarty comments about the Thai people as a whole. It would seem that a large section of TV agree with these comments (which is no suprise as so many do it) but it is nice to see that most seem not to agree with it.

Sorry Garro, but you're not new in this forum. In TV, there is a only a few people who make a real contribution, people you can learn from, especially in the "general" and "news" forums. In the sub forums it's a bit better.

Many posters are losers in their home country, hoping for a new life, but as a Swiss singer, S Eicher I believe, put it it rightly "On ne refait pas sa vie, on continue seulement"

If someone can translate, not only the words but the meaning, it would be appreciated.

[teacherthailand77]

I voted 'no', but it certainly isn't a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. There's nothing wrong with some criticism, but I feel like western expats have a tendency to disparage Thais to no end-- sure, it's not perfect here but neither is the US (and other countries). on thaivisa, I've read some pretty nasty comments about Thais that are just plain bitter. I've lived in a few countries and I've seen this everywhere. While some healthy criticism is fine, I think that if an expat is disgusted with the culture and the people it's time to go home. There's no reason you have to stay here.

Overall, I think Thailand is great.

Cheers!

[kowneeoh]

expats should be able to come onto an expat site and talk openly about widely-shared difficulties in a foreign culture. Otherwise, we are talking about censorship

On "T.V" ??? I wish !!

[PeaceBlondie]

Just a reminder, as a moderator: you can report any post, and the moderation team will consider if that post violates forum rules. It is the second button in the lower left hand corner of each post, that takes you to a report menu.

[bultaco44]

Yes, haven't I got a right to my opinion?.

And if I'm asked for it, they'll get it without any "make up".

I do not care for the " if you don't like it here, why don't you go home" frase.

I care about this place.

On the other hand, I wouldn't participate in demo's etc. I guess it would't have any desired effect.

[teacup]

I haven't read all the replies here and my opinion may be repeating.

So I would say NO. Their opinions won’t matter much here.

We have enough headaches arguing among ourselves already, and don’t need the third wheel too. And because the constitution is written for only thai citizens, not for foreign nationals.

The only place their opinion matters much is in their own country. Why don't they stay there and voice that opinion and fix things?

Just like my opinion, it probably doesn’t matter much here either.

[Samuian]

in regards to your claim that you have never seen a post which suggested that all Thai women are prostitutes. Maybe you should look harder. I didn't even try to look, but found one straight away;

Thai women don't like farang they just like their money.

Funny, isn't it, how did that happen?

It has been mentioned already - maybe "You are a tad bit too sensitive towards certain issues"!

if I log in to TV, I usually click on 'View New Posts' and have a large choice of information about all things in live, I mean ALL!

My Opinion is, that an Opinion, is an Opinion and it should be accepted as an Opinion, it certainly can be questioned and discussed but close the lid with advice like "go home, fix it there!" or "been here for too long, time to go home" aren't very constructive, are they?

And certainly isn't helping anyone, any further.

Some may have had very bad experiences, some may have got badly scolded, some may have been badly tricked, why should those proclaim: "They are ALL angels here!" ?

Sure, shortcomings are not only at home here in the LoS, but everywhere and those who can't read the difference out of a scolding, "belittling" post and a critical one... well, they may should analyze 1st themselves!

I definitely can't see a tendency that farangs in general call local women Pros and no general tendency that EVERY THING here is bad, as in Thai bashing. or that it is worse here than elsewhere!

But I can understand the frustration building up in trying to build a house, set up a business, getting things done and then have to deal with local populace and labor "force", maybe no proper knowledge of local customs, little if no language skills, not to mention communication skills.... the lot!

After all it's a forum - A THAI-Forum!

I don't want to go into details what a public FORUM is all about, respect the guidelines and voice your opinion, what ever that might be - the OP did it in his way, other do it in different ways and go different ways!

....and yes, keep 'em comin' PLEASE!

Edited July 13, 2008 by Samuian

[Screws]

Simple poll and a simple question. Should ex-pats be critical of the way Thais choose to do things?

Do those who say 'yes' believe that immigrants in their country should be critical or should they just try and fit in with the host countries laws and ways? Do those who say 'no' believe that it is best to just ignore the bad and focus on the good - after all it's not like our opinion counts for much.

Constructively; yes

Negatively; with great care. But you would be wasting your time - possibly in both cases

[rijb]

Criticizing without critical thinking (challenging the answers not the questions) is easy. Especially for those who are used to letting the western media do their thinking for them.

[Pierrot]

Criticizing without critical thinking (challenging the answers not the questions) is easy. Especially for those who are used to letting the western media do their thinking for them.

How is your post relevant to the original post ? I’m afraid you shoot yourself in the foot.

[rijb]

Criticizing without critical thinking (challenging the answers not the questions) is easy. Especially for those who are used to letting the western media do their thinking for them.

How is your post relevant to the original post ? I'm afraid you shoot yourself in the foot.

That's good critical thinking. You should rest now.

[Pierrot]

That's good critical thinking. You should rest now.

Ooops.I did it again ....

[PeaceBlondie]

Finally, I see one tiny but critical adverb in the original question: "Should ex-pats be SO critical of Thailand?"

I think the adverb was not sufficiently explained in the OP, but garro and others emphasized it later.

teacup, I am disappointed in your answer. As a Thai, you wrote in part, "...And because the constitution is written for only thai citizens, not for foreign nationals. The only place their opinion matters much is in their own country. Why don't they stay there and voice that opinion and fix things?..." Are we only welcome here if we only always say effusive, positive things about Thailand? Should we say absolutely nothing about Thailand, whatsoever? You mention our countries, and about us voicing our opinions and fixing things in our own country - well, many of us spent our lives over there doing that. Do most Thais actually fix things in Thailand? I know Thais who live in my country (which they still call The Land of the Free) and Thais can have free speech, free press, etc. Foreigners such as Thais can even shout out loud against our President or other officials, without being jailed or deported. But I honestly thought that Thais do not care how it is done in Denver or Dublin. Does the constitution of Thailand only grant freedom of speech to Thai citizens?

teacup, many farang consider Thailand to be our home. We cannot 'go back home.' Must be just shut up, smile, wai, and remain bent over?

[Jingthing]

Well, I am a liberal guy, but when I saw (many of them illegal) Latinos marching and blocking a major street in protest of US immigration laws, waving Mexican flags on American soil, I felt enraged. Almost none of us would go that far here (and if we did, we would be well deported) but the reality is we need to be very sensitive to the political sensibilities of our hosts who lets admit it are rather touchy about foreign influence. If it drives you too crazy, and I sympathize with the frustration, well, I am not going to say go home. I might suggest a strong cocktail though.

[PeaceBlondie]

Before a rich Nicaraguan went home to help lead a revolution against his leader, or a counter-revolution against the rebels, he got mad at the president of the USA for supporting such a violent dictator. As a foreign student, he stood in front of the White House and hurled insults at the US president. Then he saw a policeman and feared for his life. When the policeman did nothing, the rich Nicaraguan thought what a wonderful country, to allow aliens to insult their highest leader. Do I understand that aliens in Thailand are unwelcome to voice the slightest discomfort at the lowliest citizen?

[Jingthing]

When the policeman did nothing, the rich Nicaraguan thought what a wonderful country, to allow aliens to insult their highest leader. Do I understand that aliens in Thailand are unwelcome to voice the slightest discomfort at the lowliest citizen?

Yes, PB, I agree that is a quality of a wonderful country. Thailand isn't like that and there isn't anything we can do about it. It has its own flavor of wonderfulness and horribleness. Complain about discomfort? Sure, say jep when the masseur presses too hard ...

[HelterSkelter]

Raising the issue of Human rights violations is like reporting to the police that John stole a candy so that the police will not notice that you stole a pen. Its just a matter of who got to the police first.

Countries like the US have been using this trick for so long. It used to be the Red Scare! Then it was about Drugs, Intellectual Property Issues, etc. Now the lastest baby is Human Trafficking!

All of these are just buttons to push to keep countries like Thailand, unsettled so that the superpowers can plunder other countries at will. It is a tool to deflect attention from the real issues at hand.

Just like a magician - sleigh of hand, misdirection, switch and before you know it - you've been s cr ewed.

my vote is no as it's none of our business (although i admit having critical thoughts quite often).

That's where I disagree. I think the human rights violations of others such as Burmese, ethnic minorities, and foreigners under the law is everyone's business.

Expats/People should Be critical of Every land not only Thailand(Within Reason and unwinginly).

Because it IS a global situation we live in and face.And our children will inherit the legacy of our present lifestiles and decisions and even interactions!(Generational Debt Slavery at present!)

We (Farang Corperations and Governments) sold this present "Developed"infrastructure to Thailand and other "Developing"nations. The Bank Loans, morgages,credit card frenzy,Pick Up Truck/Petrol Wasting madness, and the "Show Off" Marketing culture.Of Coarse We should Voice Intelligent caution.

After all wether We are "Paying Customers" or Husband,wives or Freinds,We Are Brothers and Sisters of a Global Family! YES!

[Pierrot]

Raising the issue of Human rights violations is like reporting to the police that John stole a candy so that the police will not notice that you stole a pen. Its just a matter of who got to the police first.

Countries like the US have been using this trick for so long. It used to be the Red Scare! Then it was about Drugs, Intellectual Property Issues, etc. Now the lastest baby is Human Trafficking!

All of these are just buttons to push to keep countries like Thailand, unsettled so that the superpowers can plunder other countries at will. It is a tool to deflect attention from the real issues at hand.

Just like a magician - sleigh of hand, misdirection, switch and before you know it - you've been s cr ewed.

my vote is no as it's none of our business (although i admit having critical thoughts quite often).

That's where I disagree. I think the human rights violations of others such as Burmese, ethnic minorities, and foreigners under the law is everyone's business.

Expats/People should Be critical of Every land not only Thailand(Within Reason and unwinginly).

Because it IS a global situation we live in and face.And our children will inherit the legacy of our present lifestiles and decisions and even interactions!(Generational Debt Slavery at present!)

We (Farang Corperations and Governments) sold this present "Developed"infrastructure to Thailand and other "Developing"nations. The Bank Loans, morgages,credit card frenzy,Pick Up Truck/Petrol Wasting madness, and the "Show Off" Marketing culture.Of Coarse We should Voice Intelligent caution.

After all wether We are "Paying Customers" or Husband,wives or Freinds,We Are Brothers and Sisters of a Global Family! YES!

It sounds interesting. Coud please someone translate in english ?

[scyriacus]

I voted no but i also would like to vote yes, purely for the English. I think because they are all happy to complain about the state of the UK, (in all aspects), they should be allowed to do the same elsewhere. For those other nationalities that believe their country is the best in the world it's a different matter. If you can't see the huge problems in your own country, (and every country has them), then you should keep your mouth shut about the place you CHOSE to live.

Nidge

agree 'nidge'. i am german and i am so proud to be.....that i fled to thailand. here i can keep my big mouth rather shut without sacrificing my soul...............shit happens....but here i can live with it

[IAMSOBAD]

No

[MKAsok]

I know this website's had quite a few mentions over the past few days in various threads (and deservedly so), but I feel compelled to point this out, particularly in the context of this thread.

[loubrockbank]

personally i say no, but everyone has there own opinions and I respect that but sometimes when I see posts on here of people constantly moaning about thailand it does make me think why on earth they has chosen to live there it just doesnt add, no where is perfect

just my view

Edited July 13, 2008 by loubrockbank

[teacup]

Finally, I see one tiny but critical adverb in the original question: "Should ex-pats be SO critical of Thailand?"

I think the adverb was not sufficiently explained in the OP, but garro and others emphasized it later.

teacup, I am disappointed in your answer. As a Thai, you wrote in part, "...And because the constitution is written for only thai citizens, not for foreign nationals. The only place their opinion matters much is in their own country. Why don't they stay there and voice that opinion and fix things?..." Are we only welcome here if we only always say effusive, positive things about Thailand? Should we say absolutely nothing about Thailand, whatsoever? You mention our countries, and about us voicing our opinions and fixing things in our own country - well, many of us spent our lives over there doing that. Do most Thais actually fix things in Thailand? I know Thais who live in my country (which they still call The Land of the Free) and Thais can have free speech, free press, etc. Foreigners such as Thais can even shout out loud against our President or other officials, without being jailed or deported. But I honestly thought that Thais do not care how it is done in Denver or Dublin. Does the constitution of Thailand only grant freedom of speech to Thai citizens?

You should know by now, about the meaning of the “freedom of speech, and the freedom of the press” in thailand, just same same as the function of “the department of patent & intelligence”.

The constitution is written for citizens, not for foreign nationals. However that is at the Federal level. How things are handled at the lower/local level is an entirely different matter. However you as ‘an expat” , I think, you can directly “impact” the local voters for the changes locally. Regardless, what an expat does to directly impacts the citizen or local voter, THAT is the other matters.

teacup, many farang consider Thailand to be our home. We cannot 'go back home.' Must be just shut up, smile, wai, and remain bent over?

I know, sometimes it hard not to think when you see things that don’t make sense.

But part of life or living in Thailand, is be able to adjust yourself well in many ambiguous situations, or in the situations when things don't necessary seem to make sense.

Ask yourself why did you move to Thailand in the first place and what were some good things you used to see? When you move to Thailand, you should already know what to expect, not come here and try to change things or expect the changes in your favor.

The fact of life is : You’re outnumbered, you are the minority here - smaller in number, but once you have enough number it may be possible that your voice may mean something. You are such a tiny dot compare to the majority here, it may be best to go along with the majority, it’s just a basic survival skill.

Even if the changes seem to be better according to the western ideology, or common sense - but again you’re just the minority and outnumbered- so it won’t mean much.

You may make a dent in the lower/ local level but not in the federal level.

For example, like in Pattaya, Phuket, Huahin, or any farang ghettos, you may be able to express your thoughts or views and be reciprocated back better. Start with the local level where you live, you then will be able to voice more of your opinions in the future, with a farther impact.

You can start, for examples : help feeding the poor, tutor kids, take care of old people, pick up trash, build beautiful buildings and parks, donate your time to help others, volunteer at a hospital, etc. etc. Why didn’t I see many expats doing these, even in their own local ghetto, instead of complaining or be soo critical about it? Instead of….I don’t like that, and I don’t like this !

As for for other married ones: if you don’t like something, ask your wife, she’s thai and can be able to have some influences, to pass along your thoughts/idea of changes.

So in conclusion, don’t be so critical if you expect changes to your ways, because you don’t have numbers on your side, just yet. May be in the future of your lukreungs?

Edited July 13, 2008 by teacup

[justcruisin]

I know this website's had quite a few mentions over the past few days in various threads (and deservedly so), but I feel compelled to point this out, particularly in the context of this thread.

MKAsok

In every society there is good and bad and indifferent people.

For farang there are a lot of of extra concerns living in a country that most prefer more than

their home country,but we also have to deal with the govermental policy on property ownership,visa's amongst other things.

IMHO this is paradise for me,I voted a big no.

It seems the majority of votes say expats should not be so critical.

I like the way Thai people are so patriotic,deservedly so,you and teacup have put your voice forward.

What I don't understand is why thai goverment's have a negative attitude to foreigners investing money in the kingdom??

That would probably answer a lot of questions.

Just my satangs worth

choc dee na

[Bagwan]

What I don't understand is why thai goverment's have a negative attitude to foreigners investing money in the kingdom??

Could it be that they have a negative attitude towards foreigners making profits, or running a business effectively?

I like living here very much but I am not blind. The opposite of love isn't hate, it is indifference. Criticisms that I make are made out of interest in Thailand and targetted towards making life more rewarding for Thai people, not myself.

The promotion of Thai nationalism is nothing more than a method of keeping the proles on side. The idea that yours is the best country in the world just because you were born into it is nothing less than insanity.

People have written that we are guests here and should behave accordingly. I have yet to see anybody mention what might be expected of a sensible host.