My Reaction To This Forum

[GreenShirt]

Hi. My name is Ben and this is my first post. I only found this forum about an hour ago. I have this problem with reading about buddhism.

When I first found this message board I was very happy that I had found a place that seemed to have some good, down to earth information. I started reading a thread on gambling and I read some good points. I read that gambling could be seen as a drain. This sounded pretty good. There's no wrong or right to gambling, but it can lead to certain things.

So I kept reading, and as I was reading I noticed an old pattern kicking in. I had found some information that fit in with what I believe, so I was continuing to read and I was continuing to believe what I was reading. At least parts of it. When the information is all layed out there in front of you, and there's so much of it, it's easy to not do the work to see if it actually makes sense. It's easy to forget that things can sound correct but be wrong upon deeper consideration.

And when I learn this way, what am I really doing? I am accumulating but I am not growing. Growing takes the same effort whether I am reading a buddhist forum on the internet or playing guitar or doing whatever. Do the things I am reading even help me?

Maybe they help to calm my mind a bit. Sometimes I have a few ideas that seem connected but I can't quite make the bridge, then bam, there it is on paper. Then that leads to an oppertunity to work it out in my head. Of course with so much other information it is easy to keep reading to see if the answer is in the thread. And once that habit is established, I have already lost the initial drive that prompted me to ask the first question (perhaps the question, in turn, prompted the arrival of this information into my world).

So reading these threads can easily turn into a substitute for genuine learning. But I suppose that's the same for anything. It seems to fit in with what I've been thinking recently and that is that inattention begets pointless accumulation.

That statement leads me to question how much of what I've just said is true and how much of it is a result of what I already believe. Maybe it is truth coming out through the channels of my beliefs.

I feel much better about my relationship with this message board now that I have written all this out. Writing is a good way for me to get my thoughts straight.

[Crushdepth]

Maybe you would learn more from the forum if you asked some questions?

[markwhite]

"Hi. My name is Ben and this is my first post. I only found this forum about an hour ago. I have this problem with reading about buddhism."

Stop reading and start practicing then. You'll find guidance from knowledge, but you need experience to develop wisdom.

That reads a bit harsh, which isn't the intention.

"I had found some information that fit in with what I believe, so I was continuing to read and I was continuing to believe what I was reading. "

Stop attaching to your beliefs and question the nature of the experiences you have.

This is also a bit direct, but you are asking.

"When the information is all layed out there in front of you, and there's so much of it"

It sounds like you're close to the point where you realise you have to stop chasing knowledge at some time. One cannot 'know' everything solely by following that method.

When I went through that phase, I spent a year or two studying things like relativity, quantum theory, cosmology and anything that tried to explain the nature of things. I learned lots of stuff, but I could see where it was going, and it would never, ever stop.

"Growing takes the same effort whether I am reading a buddhist forum on the internet or playing guitar or doing whatever. "

An excellent example, but when you play a guitar you are initially training the body to be able to repeat certain patterns of movement until it becomes a natural part of you and, one day when it all comes naturally, you can forget about the technical aspects of playing and concentrate on the expression of the song instead. You don't learn to play the guitar by reading tab. You learn by playing.

These analogy translates to aspects of Buddhism, and particularly meditation. You practice it until mindfulness becomes part of your daily life, then you can concentrate on the expression of daily life.

"Do the things I am reading even help me?"

It depends how you read them. They will affect you, and you are nothing (no metaphysical pun intended) if you are not the product of each and every experience that you have had in your life.

When I've read some of the threads in here, I feel sometimes the emphasis is put on what it says in the scriptures more than personal experience. I have the view that the Buddha's view was somewhat "This has worked for me, why don't you try it and see what happens'. I've had the experience that learning about the theories behind Dhamma do take a while to sink in with me, but they do sink in and, in time, they make more sense. Maybe this will help lead me to insight, maybe it won't. So I accept my views on this are becoming more relaxed, but reading suttas still bores the pants off me.

"Maybe they help to calm my mind a bit. "

Your post so far reads like you've been getting confused, so your mind is being agitated.

"Sometimes I have a few ideas that seem connected but I can't quite make the bridge, then bam, there it is on paper. Then that leads to an oppertunity to work it out in my head. Of course with so much other information it is easy to keep reading to see if the answer is in the thread. And once that habit is established, I have already lost the initial drive that prompted me to ask the first question (perhaps the question, in turn, prompted the arrival of this information into my world)."

I apologies in advance for saying this, remembering how frustrating and annoying it used to be for me when people used to aim the same accusation in my direction, but...

This all reads like you think far too much. That would be a beneficial habit to break.

"So reading these threads can easily turn into a substitute for genuine learning. But I suppose that's the same for anything. "

It's all just a distraction. I've just spent an hour reading about news in the world that does not affect me one iota when I could've been meditating. But at 3am after being woken up by a screaming baby I wanted to distract my mind, not focus it. It's just my lack of determination to keep focussed on what is important.

"It seems to fit in with what I've been thinking recently and that is that inattention begets pointless accumulation."

'Mindfulness' is the usual term in Buddhism, and it does lead to distraction. Actually ignorance leads to contact, but that's another story.

Getting to the point of frustration about any issue is not a problem. In my experience you need to develop a certain level of dissatisfaction with the status quo to get enough 'want' to work at changing where you are in life. Some of those beliefs can be very strong and need a lot of dissatisfaction to break through them. I had 3 nervous breakdowns before I got up enough 'want' to break out of that cycle, and thankfully I did. Not much fun though, but it can be something that has to be done.

"That statement leads me to question how much of what I've just said is true and how much of it is a result of what I already believe. Maybe it is truth coming out through the channels of my beliefs."

Very little is 'true'. I believe the official line is that nibbana is the only thing and everything else is subject to change, has no real substance and therefore is inherently dissatisfying. You are conditioned by what you belief, and so everything you believe in is, in some way, only relevant to your life and is not necessarily a truth for anyone else.

Sometimes having certain experiences can lead to the development of certain beliefs that can encourage an individual to move in a certain direction which might prepare them for being in a certain condition conducive to receiving insight. Which can be considered as truths once you get ontoreceiving insights about the true nature of things.

Otherwise it's just rhetoric and logic which can create horrible ego traps rather than necessarily leading anywhere.

"I feel much better about my relationship with this message board now that I have written all this out. Writing is a good way for me to get my thoughts straight."

Expression of feelings is better for the individual than supression, or repression. Have you tried using a blog?

Best of luck.

[GreenShirt]

Thanks for your concern and your post, Mark. I really liked your analogy about guitar / meditation. It

makes a lot of sense. When you said that it sounds like I think to much, I found that very interesting.

I have had problems before where I have been completely wrapped up in my thoughts and beliefs so that I

couldn't just live my life. I still feel like there is a benefit to thinking about things, though.

Maybe I will never know everything, but that's ok. I'm not sure that I need to know everything to be

happy. From thinking, I have just thought that my beliefs could be the fruit of my contemplation. There

is no rush to this, no struggle. I am pleased to have thought this because it gives me another line of

consideration.

When I think about it, I suppose there are two aspects to my thinking process. One is reasoning, which is

concluding things from other things, like I have been doing in my posts. The other is identifying things,

which is finding examples of the concept. Like, from the thought before, I could notice when I am contemplating something and when I am believing it.

So what benefit does that bring? It's like having a map of myself. It means when I find myself in a

situation, I can orient myself, I have some idea about what going on, why I am doing the things I am

doing. If I spent the last half hour thinking about how much I hate someone, I would not be surprised to

find myself in a bad mood.

But then maybe that is cheating. Maybe I am diverting my capacity to react spontaneously in a situation

to my capacity to think. What I realize now is that I'm a bit afraid to give up my thinking (whether or

not it is for the best). It's like a safety net, too. I know that if I get myself into a state, if I

think about it and try to better understand it, I will start to feel better about it. I will start to understand what led to it.

Whenever I am thinking, I have to accept the possibility that everything I am thinking could be wrong,

and all the suppositions that what I am thinking about could also be wrong. Sometimes when I am thinking

I have to let it all go, but I know it has affected me in some way. I put it back and let my subconcious

deal with it. I think this is the difference between getting attached to my beliefs or not. Of course I'm

still not perfect at this.

Before going after nirvana or anything like that, I have to make sure that I am ok. And that is what this

is about. I don't want to foolhardedly give up a habit that is helping me. It's like Robert Frost said

"Never tear down a fence until you first know why it was put up."

I don't have a blog but I do write quite a bit. Writing on paper or in notepad has the added advantage

that I can slag someone off and they'll never know about it

I'd really like to hear what you have to say about this, Mark. I certainly want what's best.

[Yamantaka]

"Hi. My name is Ben and this is my first post. I only found this forum about an hour ago. I have this problem with reading about buddhism."

Greenshirt, to me it sounds like your mind is in the right state for learning the Dharma. Don't worry about things not fitting into place or conforming to anyone else's ideas of how you must progress. Every mind is different therefore every path is different. The pieces fall into place as you move forward.

If possible, take teachings in person rather than reading books. And learn to meditate since all the things you wrote about here are perfect subjects for analytical meditations.

Most of all, be happy that your mind is ready, that you are in place where the Dharma is taught and that you are capable of learning it.

[markwhite]

"Thanks for your concern"

Please don't be misled. I'm not at all concerned by what you said previously.

"I really liked your analogy about guitar / meditation."

You provided me with the chance to make an analogy that you might understand. It's difficult to get a real rapport with forums and not really knowing the other person.

"I have had problems before where I have been completely wrapped up in my thoughts and beliefs so that I

couldn't just live my life. I still feel like there is a benefit to thinking about things, though."

If you intend to live in the material world in any way whatsoever, and it's difficult not to unless you become a hermit, monk, or join a commune or group that is pretty much self contained, then thinking does have it's place.

My point is there are many times when thinking is just a complete waste of time. It's an ego trap. The thinker tells themselves that what they are doing is helping them in some way, but it's just a distraction. Even with all of the best rationalisations and arguments that could possibly be made, most thinking is completely unnecessary and merely gets in the way of us being able to experience what is going on around us now.

(I keep thinking of the book 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance')

"From thinking, I have just thought that my beliefs could be the fruit of my contemplation."

Based on logic and rhetoric, not experience. So based on something empty and impersonal.

"I am pleased to have thought this because it gives me another line of consideration."

It sounds like you're clinging to the security you get from thinking. You say something like this later.

"So what benefit does that bring? It's like having a map of myself. It means when I find myself in a

situation, I can orient myself"

If you believe this to be a benefit, then I'm not sure how I can help you.

"But then maybe that is cheating."

Cheating who?

"Maybe I am diverting my capacity to react spontaneously in a situation

to my capacity to think."

Everyone has the potential of being 100% aware at all times. If 80% of this is channelled into thinking, they are only 20% aware of what is happening in their environment, and therefore they are unable to react to it, or learn anything from it. And they feel detached from life. And it's no surprise.

"What I realize now is that I'm a bit afraid to give up my thinking (whether or

not it is for the best)."

This is what I referred to earlier. I've heard it referred to as 'the fear of what is left when the thinking is gone [or realistically, lessened]"

"I know that if I get myself into a state, if I

think about it and try to better understand it, I will start to feel better about it. I will start to understand what led to it."

Then I'll give you this one:

AUTOBIOGRAPHY IN FIVE SHORT CHAPTERS

by Portia Nelson

I

I walk down the street.

There is a deep hole in the sidewalk

I fall in.

I am lost ... I am helpless.

It isn't my fault.

It takes me forever to find a way out.

II

I walk down the same street.

There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.

I pretend I don't see it.

I fall in again.

I can't believe I am in the same place

but, it isn't my fault.

It still takes a long time to get out.

III

I walk down the same street.

There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.

I see it is there.

I still fall in ... it's a habit.

my eyes are open

I know where I am.

It is my fault.

I get out immediately.

IV

I walk down the same street.

There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.

I walk around it.

V

I walk down another street.

If this resonates with you, it can be worthwhile reflecting on how you move off the stage you are on and onto the next one.

"Whenever I am thinking, I have to accept the possibility that everything I am thinking could be wrong,"

There is no wrong. You can only think what you are thinking because you are as you are. Everyone is the product of their experience, including insight or not.

"Before going after nirvana or anything like that, I have to make sure that I am ok."

Often the fundamental question to ask is "Who am I?", rather than 'Am I ok?". What are the questions you are asking yourself concerning, and who are they addressed to? What is your nature when you are not thinking?

"I don't want to foolhardedly give up a habit that is helping me. It's like Robert Frost said

"Never tear down a fence until you first know why it was put up." "

Now I'm very unsure that I will be able to help you. I'll finish typing this reply out of courtesy anyway.

"I'd really like to hear what you have to say about this, Mark. I certainly want what's best."

Firstly, you've got what's best. It just reads that you're too busy doing other stuff (like thinking) to notice.

And otherwise, you're in a Buddhism forum but this message contains no evidence of any practices encouraged by Buddhism, and actually says a lot about how you enjoy doing things are certainly aren't felt to be the most beneficial to those following the Buddha's teachings. You seem to be close to 'walking around the hole', but are afraid to forgo the safety nets that you have built for yourself, and now you've found the hole to be a familiar place which provides some sort of comfort. It's less of a danger or concern to be in the hole anymore because you are becoming more familiar with it. This might help you to climb out of the hole you are in, but progress depends on how well you are able to see that the hole is not the best place to be. And nothing you say is telling me that.

I'm perfectly happy to try to help someone who is interested in the Buddha's teachings (with my limited understanding), practising Buddhism (though I'm not much interested in the religion itself) or moving forward on the spiritual path through whatever means. If you want to discuss any of these matters, it's best that you contact me by PM for my email as the content of your messages leads me to think that this conversation will involve very little of a Buddhist nature if it continues in here.

[GreenShirt]

Hey mark. I've started practicicing not thinking (I had a little revelation the other day where all the thoughts went out of my mind and in it's place I was aware of what was happening). Things are becoming simpler. I am basically just an animal, lol. The crazy thing is that I did this once before and it helped me so much, but I completely forgot about it.

[Galong]

Hey mark. I've started practicicing not thinking (I had a little revelation the other day where all the thoughts went out of my mind and in it's place I was aware of what was happening). Things are becoming simpler. I am basically just an animal, lol. The crazy thing is that I did this once before and it helped me so much, but I completely forgot about it.

Hi Greenshirt,

You might find that Wu Wei is what you're practicing. You can find a lot of info online about it at on this page. I suggest checking out the Inner Chapters of the Chuang Tzu (Burton Watson's version is very easy reading). Lao Tzu also refers to Wu Wei.

Basically, it's actionless action or spontaneous action without preconceptions. That probably doesn't make much sense, sorry, but once you read a lot more about it hopefully it will.

The Chuang Tzu is my favorite Eastern text. It's full of stories from which you can gleem endless meaning. Here's an example:

The Secret of Caring for Life

Cook Ting was cutting up an ox for Lord Wen-hui. At every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee-zip! zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Ching-shou music.

"Ah, this is marvelous!" said Lord Wen-hui. "Imagine skill reaching such heights!"

Cook Ting laid down his knife and replied, "What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now-now I go at it by spirit and don't look with my eyes, Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and follow things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint.

"A good cook changes his knife once a year-because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month-because he hacks. I've had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I've cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as thought it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness into such spaces, then there's plenty of room-more than enough for the blade to play about in. That's why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone."

"However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I'm doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety until-flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away."

"Excellent!" said Lord Wen-hui. "I have heard the words of Cook Ting and learned how to care for life!" From this site

[OlRedEyes]

In learning anything, searching for clarification and finding truth, it is imperative that one keeps one's feet on the ground, else the snake-oil salesmen may find fertile ground...

My impression of your post :

[markwhite]

Hey mark. I've started practicicing not thinking (I had a little revelation the other day where all the thoughts went out of my mind and in it's place I was aware of what was happening). Things are becoming simpler. I am basically just an animal, lol. The crazy thing is that I did this once before and it helped me so much, but I completely forgot about it.

Good for you :-)

I find that forgetting is part of it. I forget all of the time. But when I notice I've forgotten, I try to do something about it - just as you have done.