Origins Of Thai People

[sbk]

Interesting article in the Free republic, taken from the Bangkok Post a few years ago:

BONES TELL STORY OF THAI ORIGIN

Bangkok Post ^ | Sunday November 05, 2006 | ANCHALEE KONGRUT

Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 10:22:03 AM by JimSEA

DNA tests on ancient skeletons in the Northeast suggest our ancestors may have migrated to this part of the region long before we first thought.

The tests were conducted by scholars and archaeologists at the Fine Arts Department in a bid to find the origins of Thai people. The team started its work in 2003, using the testing of mitochondrial DNA on skeletons in selected graveyards in Nakhon Ratchasima and groups of living people in China, and some countries in Southeast Asia.

Mitochondria are small energy-producing organelles found in egg cells which, unlike nuclear DNA that is equally inherited from both father and mother, is passed only from a mother to her children.

The result showed genetic similarities in the skeletons and people in China and Southeast Asia, which means migration might have taken place about 3,000 years ago.

There is more but it is interesting because the commonly held belief is that the Thai's migrated from China about 700 years ago.

Also, I am curious if anyone has read anything regarding Southern Thailand (not the deep South but the Middle South) and their origins. I see a great similarity in appearance between southern Thais and Filipinos. In fact, my husband is often mistaken for a Filipino by other Filipinos. Of course, he was also mistaken for a Mexican by Hispanics here in the US, that was kind of funny

[TheDon]

Somewhere in asia.

[sbk]

Somewhere in asia.

someone with some thoughts might be a good thing

[teacup]

Sbk....That would be me,...just forget about Don

From what I know

The middle south -

Sometimes you run into some locals that speak similarly to the northern Sumatra dialect. So I would guess they are from the same place. All the way down to the Banyee island.

My husband can speak Indonesian, so he can tell.

Many of them are.......skinny, tall, and hunky

The north south

I think they are from the northern “Mon tribe”, especially around Prajuab Karekan (sp), Phetchaburi, and Ratchaburi area.

And

The south south

I think there are sunni muslims

Of course I leave rooms for other possibilities also

Edited July 23, 2008 by teacup

[Nampeung]

The middle southern Thais originate from sea gypsies from around the Malay northern borders that's why they are more hairy, darker skinned and muscle bound than folks in BKK who have a Chinese heritage

[Mosha]

I once did a google search that suggested the migration started about 4000 years ago. Not all came to Thailand, some went into Vietnam and others into Cambodia. I have never been able to find that article since though.

[Naam]

Somewhere in asia.

someone with some thoughts might be a good thing

thoughts require brains, not muscles

[Scott]

This thread will be interesting to follow for two reasons: first, to see how long it takes to get it closed because of some less-than-flattering posts, and secondly, because it really is an interesting subject. There is a lot of conflicting information out there and a lot of different theories--some based on paleoforensic studies on bones, others based on linguistic groupings and studies.

[mistresserika]

I have read that the origins of the Samui people are from the southern Chinese island of Hainan.

[onzestan]

Tree's, like all humans.

cheers

onzestan

[Bizz]

Where do Thais from Esan originate from was it China south 4000 years ago

or have they migrated from Lao as i think is widly belived and same as originateing from South China .

[ade100]

Phuket has its own rather unique history. I understand that the indigenous people were almost entirely wiped out in the 1800s when the tin mining industry turned the place into a boom town. While it was lead by the Brits, thousands of Chinese emigrated here and at one point the island was 80% Chinese.

You can still see the relics of this on the island: We have dim sum shops everywhere, one of the local dishes, Phuket Noodles is almost identical to the Hokkien fried noodles we get in Singapore. Also during the vegetarian festival, the local people perform ceremonies and miraculously start speaking in Chinese dialects.

We also have the Muslim community who, apparently originate from Penang in Malaysia and the sea gypsies.

What amazes me is that anyone actually speaks Thai on Phuket.

[Theyreallrubbish]

Wikipedia has an absolutely fantastic article on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopling_of_Thailand

What we refer to as Thais seem to be originally from Taiwan who migrated through southern and central China and entered Thailand through Laos where their specialised tehnology for mountain agriculture made them well suited before spreading in to the central plains and dominating Thailand.

It also shows all the other migrations of peoples and where their remnants are today

[PeaceBlondie]

sbk, I am not surprised that your husband from Koh Phangan is mistaken for a Filipino or a Mexican mestizo. When I showed photos of modern, pureblood Mexican Mayans to northern Thais, they thought it was a hill tribe such as Meo. After all, American Indians are Asians.

[Shotime]

I never really thought about it before, but I was always interested as to why the Thai (?) calendar is like 2,550 years old. I'm guessing it had something to do with Buddhism. 3,000 years old is only the oldest evidence they've found. I also wonder if any bloodlines from the original, indigenous people (I know they had to come from somewhere) still exist from before the various migrations/colonizations took place. That's enough intelligent thought for today. Back to the more stupid topics.

Reason for edit: Sorry for the awkward sentence.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Shotime

[sylviex]

Take a look at jack-wallace.com/g7social_t3_03.htm and jack-wallace.com/g7social_t3_04.htm .

[canuckamuck]

The most fascinating origin in Thailand is that of the Pattaya tribe: The maternal DNA is Issan, and the paternal genes are property of the US Navy. Anthropologists estimate the origin to be primarily in the late 60’s but continuing to this day with an expanded donor base. Once an insignificant fishing village Pattaya has become a Phishing hub for a very successful cottage industry.

[egg6447]

good subject sbk, i see the overall picture in longer terms. namely the main four groups of homo. there is no way i would like to asses the wanderings of Caucasians. not sure of the time scale necessary to produce a new tribe/race . i dont think its been established academically, not accurately anyway. so for me the thai fall into the Australoid group. at least 50k yrs obviously older , so one local tribe of australoids taking over from another group of australoids is too modern as they are basically the same peoples . i have noticed since my arrival in the east how much the issan market workers resemble the south american tribes people. stick a bowler hat on a thai and you have a bolivian. some academics place most of these movements around 50k yrs. i would group tribal movements in with nationalistic claptrap, for me tribal is tribal . i dont think one of the four groups have displaced any other, although Caucasians seem to have displaced neanderthals, personally i am of the opinion that a lot of breeding took place before the neanderthals faded out. there is certainly evidence that they lived at the same time. ie overlapped. as for asia there are many fossils coming to light now so remains open as to a pre australiod species . very possible and likely.

[Nampeung]

Ade100 is more or less correct in that the tin mining industry brought thousands of Chinese to Phuket, they originally migrated from Hokian Province to Penang in Malaysia then were brought up to work in Phuket where many Chinese became extremely rich. They controlled Phuket Town and Talang and all areas between.

The Muslim population on Phuket are indeed from Sea Gypsies in the northern Malay area.

[sibeymai]

According to the book "Guns. Germs and Steel" which traces the origins of people through language about 5,000 years ago there was a migration of lighter skinned peoples from north of Thailand and progressively south into Malaysia and east into Cambodia and Vietnam. These new migrants were technologically superior to the dark skinned people who had been in the area for many thoudands of years before and were similar to the Australian aboriginies. Except that the in the 40,000 years that the aboriginies had been isolated by a rising sea level the mainland asians had progressed in technology, society and culture to the point where they were significantly more advanced than their aboriginal relatives 5,000 years ago but not as advanced as the new lighter skinned migrants from the north.

The competition with the new migrants forced a gradual relocation southward of the original dark skinned inhabitants. Ultimately this resulted in them being pushed off the Asian mainland, although not entirely as their most populous area remained the southern part of what is now Malaysia which explains the Malays dark skin today. The majority moved on to Indonesia, New Guinea and populated the Pacific island groups of Micronesia, Melanesia and Polynesia.

This theory has been determined by tracing common words in languages used from China through to the Pacific islands. The book is a fascinating and enjoyable read.l

[spectrum]

More interesting theorization :

The proto-Australoids are thought to have begun their exodus out of Africa roughly 100,000 years ago. They are thought to have used a simple form of watercraft to cross the narrow span of water between the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden. From there it is hypothesized that they followed a coastal route through south asia into Southeast Asia. While some individuals made a short oceanic voyage into Australia (50-60 KYA), giving rise to the Australian Aborigines, others continued their coastal migration north into East Asia.

Although strongly debated, it is believed that some proto-Australoid tribes may have continued their coastal migration north into East Asia, from where they pushed on into Siberia and eventually crossed the Bering Land Bridge (or followed a coastal route) into the Americas, contributing to a hypothetical population of Pre-Siberian American Aborigines.

Proponents of a proto-Australoid population wave theorize that remnants of this early founding population may be found today in Southern portion of the subcontinent, Southeast Asia and Oceania. Some have proposed connections to the Ainu of Japan. Genetically, they have been tentatively associated by some authors with mtDNA haplogroup M and Y-chromosome Haplogroup C[2], the earliest Homo Sapiens lineages thought to have migrated outside of Africa. [3]

Some Thais look very much like some Australian Aborigines, too.

[Moonrakers]

My wife's mother was from Ayutthya, and her father from Phuket. Despite being un-mistakenly Thai in appearance she could also pass for Malay, with a hint of Indian in her features (Eyes).

She does not seem to have a trace of Chinese about her features.

Slightly off-topic. I was asked recently how Thailand came to be known as Thailand. Does anybody know this?

Edited July 24, 2008 by globalj

[skettios]

Wikipedia has an absolutely fantastic article on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopling_of_Thailand

What we refer to as Thais seem to be originally from Taiwan who migrated through southern and central China and entered Thailand through Laos where their specialised tehnology for mountain agriculture made them well suited before spreading in to the central plains and dominating Thailand.

It also shows all the other migrations of peoples and where their remnants are today

I've heard this before, and find it really interesting. Thai traditional dress, particularly the Hmong stuff, looks identical to the aboriginal dress of the natives of Taiwan. I also have a Chinese friend, the one who told me this story first, that in Taiwanese

'Sawadee Khrap' literally translates as 'A bowl with pigs testicles'.

I'm not making this up, I swear.

[KhaoNiaw]

For those who can read Thai there's a very useful book on the subject, คนไทยมาจากไหน by Sujit Wongtet, which examines historical, cultural and linguistic evidence, and complements the linked Wikipedia article very nicely.

the commonly held belief is that the Thai's migrated from China about 700 years ago

That was once the accepted view and was what used to be taught in schools (may be still is!?), so many people will still only have that version of history.

[qwertz]

Anyone ever notice the similarity in national costume or dress between the Thai hill tribes, the Lapps and the Bolivians?

[DavidHouston]

Interesting article in the Free republic, taken from the Bangkok Post a few years ago:

There is more but it is interesting because the commonly held belief is that the Thai's migrated from China about 700 years ago.

Also, I am curious if anyone has read anything regarding Southern Thailand (not the deep South but the Middle South) and their origins. I see a great similarity in appearance between southern Thais and Filipinos. In fact, my husband is often mistaken for a Filipino by other Filipinos. Of course, he was also mistaken for a Mexican by Hispanics here in the US, that was kind of funny

I just read an interesting book, "Deep Ancestry, Inside the Genographic Project" by Spencer Wells, National Geographic, Washington, D.C., 2007. See especially pages 193-194 where Haplogroup F, one of the mtDNA groups derived from mitochondrial DNA, is discussed.

Here are some excerpts:

"Around 50,000 years ago, the first members of haplogroup F began moving into East Asia after the broke away from their R ancestors in Central and Southeast Asia. They would eventually spread out and reach widespread distribution throughout Southeast Asia, where today they make up more than 25% of the Southeast Asians.

Today haplogroup F shows its greatest sequence diversitys in Vietnam. It exhibits a very wide distribution along the Pacific coast: It appears in Filipino and aboriginal Taiwanese populations, and while having decreased frequency distributions father from Southeast Asia, it is found as far north as the Evenk of Central Siberia and as far sount as the Kadazanof Borneo."

There is much more. I very much recommend this book with its easy readability and a view of the cutting edge of biology today.

Edited July 24, 2008 by DavidHouston

[Groongthep]

For those who can read Thai there's a very useful book on the subject, คนไทยมาจากไหน by Sujit Wongtet, which examines historical, cultural and linguistic evidence, and complements the linked Wikipedia article very nicely.

the commonly held belief is that the Thai's migrated from China about 700 years ago

That was once the accepted view and was what used to be taught in schools (may be still is!?), so many people will still only have that version of history.

For those who can't read Thai, the first 3 chapter's of David K Wyatt's Thailand- A Short History goes into detail on the origin of the Thai (tai) peoples. As KhaoMiaw has said the general belief is that the Thai people of today originated from Southeastern China some many hundreds of years ago. Since that time they have mixed with the Mon, Khmer, Burmese, Indian, Middle Eastern, and various other original ethnic groups in central Southeast Asia. Later years brought new waves of immigration from China, mostly again from southeast China and the island of Hainan The very earliest evidence of humans in Thailand comes from the Ban Chiang site in Udon where artifacts have been dated as far back as the broze age (4420-3400 BC). Most of the ethnic Lao in today's Isaan were forcibly moved there from areas of present day Laos during the second or third reign of the present Chakri Dynasty around 1820 to 1840 AD.

[Payboy]

Anyone ever notice the similarity in national costume or dress between the Thai hill tribes, the Lapps and the Bolivians?

yea, they all seem to cover the interesting parts...why?

[pampal]

Sbk....That would be me,...just forget about Don

From what I know

And

The south south

I think there are sunni muslims

Of course I leave rooms for other possibilities also

Sunni Islam is a religion, not ethnicity or race.

[qwertz]

Anyone ever notice the similarity in national costume or dress between the Thai hill tribes, the Lapps and the Bolivians?

yea, they all seem to cover the interesting parts...why?

Never seen a Bolivian gogo dancer then?