Is Thai Really That Hard To Learn?

[Firefoxx]

generally,

anyone over the age 7~10 will retain an accent when learning a new language.

which languages you've studied may influence your accent.

no new language is "easy"

xtg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said that Thai was "easy". It bears repeating (again), since people keep bringing it up. The word I used is "easier" than English (and not specifically as a second language to English), and stated points to support it, and welcomed comments on those points, and gave my own learning experience as an example of why Thai shouldn't be viewed as the godzilla of languages. OK? The title of this is "is Thai Really That Hard to Learn" which means (do I have to explain everything?) "is Thai so gosh darn golly top ten hard to learn as is generally believed?". My thoughts were that it's maybe easier than English, and I illustrated my points. Now here comes the weird part: If everyone was assuming that I was talking about people who knew English as a first language, then how could I compare it to English, because then learning English would be a piece of cake to people who already *knew* English.

For accent, the word here is "generally". Listen to me (or my sis, who learned Thai at the age of 14) speak Thai, and you (or any Thai) couldn't tell that we're not natives. Thais who speak with us have no clue that Thai is our second language. That's not a brag, it's a statement of fact.

If you're accusing me of being arrogant and อวดฉลาด, go ahead. Everyone here who has accused me has been severely guilty of being presumptuous to unheard of levels. They have been อวดฉลาด in your own way, assuming hither and thither and using those assumptions to build your house of cards. Their own woefully wrong assumptions led you to believe that I was claiming utter mastery of Thai at an adult age within 2 years, hence my "disingenuousness". Hey, I never claimed no such thing. Accuse all you want, but make your accusations hold water, not assumptions. อวดฉลาด is considered an utter insult to an adult, so I really don't know how you could just be "playing with" me. The tone in this thread has been totally hostile towards me, and for things I never said. I really don't appreciate added insults (unless you took my sarcastic reply to snowleopard in the wrong context, again). Nobody has shown any feeling of guilt for their very rabid assumptions (that they used as ammo to tear me apart), and I'm not going to feel in any way apologetic for my fabricated disingenuousness.

You could have simply given me a simple meaning of the word and responded to my more salient points, yet you go and quote the whole pointless shebang, and write little else. What's your cunning word for that? It's really annoying when people just up and stop saying anything reasonable. (By the way, the word อวดฉลาด is not the same as disingenuous, which is the opposite of เปิดเผย. Why you'd use an English word and then use the opposite Thai word as if it was something new is beyond me.)

You want me to be "เปิดเผย"? I already said that the statement about my learning experience was a mere afterthought, something I added to strengthen my point just a bit. Yet this vague afterthought with few concrete details was jumped upon like a rabbit in a den of hungry tigers. Once I knew what was happening, I made myself *very* clear, for anyone who chose to listen. You yourself write only a few words (which you enjoy at the expense of others), yet you expect others to elaborate on every aspect of their writing just so that overly presumptuous people will not have a field day. I'm not a lawyer, I don't elablorate on details as if it were second nature.

I keep getting words put in my mouth, and I'm feeling really full (of umentionable things) right now. Everyone seems ###### bent on reading *between* the lines more than the lines themselves, and I end up having to repeat myself over and over. I really see no end to this.

This ordeal has had all the pleasantness and careful reasoning of a classic witch hunt. Congratulations on a job well done. Where's the stake? I'll tie myself to it and spare you the trouble.

[bannork]

sabaijai,

-'disingenous'- a deliberate intention to mislead cloaked by a thin layer of fake sincerity

Source: the UdonThani unrevised dictionary @1976

I contend อวดฉลาด is acceptable if F.F is willing to correct our farang Thai, for this forum is the Thai language, and having already established himself as our foremost scholar with 2000 books under his belt, he should dedicate himself to the advancement and progress of the Thai language by us less fortunate older citizens.

bannork.l

[RDN]

.... he should dedicate himself to the advancement and progress of the Thai language by us less fortunate older citizens.

bannork.l

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt he feels like helping anyone - which is a great shame. But I, for one, wouldn't blame him for a second!

[snowleopard]

generally,

anyone over the age 7~10 will retain an accent when learning a new language.

which languages you've studied may influence your accent.

no new language is "easy"

Mark Twain once commented that:

" i'd much rather decline a good drink, than a german noun"

the fact that thai has no tenses, pluruls, declensions, etc,

does not make it simple,

i cannot imagine learning all the "class" words, and the proper use of their application; "i have two (round things) xxxxx."

nuttin' easy,

how do you get to carnegie hall?

practice, practise, practice

xtg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i cannot imagine learning all the "class" words, and the proper use of their application; "i have two (round things) xxxxx."

You can check for the appropriate Thai classifier in this reference library!

CLICK HERE:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14500

Cheers,

Snowleopard.

[snowleopard]

sabaijai,

-'disingenous'- a deliberate intention to mislead cloaked by a thin layer of fake sincerity

Source: the UdonThani unrevised dictionary @1976

I contend อวดฉลาด is acceptable if F.F is willing to correct our farang Thai, for this forum is the Thai language, and having already established himself as our foremost scholar with 2000 books under his belt, he should dedicate himself to the advancement and progress of the Thai language by us less fortunate older citizens.

bannork.l

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I contend อวดฉลาด is acceptable

How about this description in Thai for our exhibitionistically inclined vulpine pup?

อวดอ้าง "oo-at aang"

[samran]

You want me to be "เปิดเผย"?  I already said that the statement about my learning experience was a mere afterthought, something I added to strengthen my point just a bit.  Yet this vague afterthought with few concrete details was jumped upon like a rabbit in a den of hungry tigers.  Once I knew what was happening, I made myself *very* clear, for anyone who chose to listen.  You yourself write only a few words (which you enjoy at the expense of others), yet you expect others to elaborate on every aspect of their writing just so that overly presumptuous people will not have a field day.  I'm not a lawyer, I don't elablorate on details as if it were second nature.

I think most of us live in a very different world to you Firefox. Problem is, most of us here would have been OK with it had writen something along the lines of

'In my case, I was able to speak Thai fairly well within a few months, fluently within a year, and was able to read/write fluently within 2 years....having said that, I did learn Thai when I was 10, so it was relatively easy for me to pick it up

It would have put your comment in a proper perspective, and I reckon about 95% of other people in your position would have done so. But as I said, thats the world we live in, where you extend that kind of information as a matter of course. For most people, that would have been the 'normal' thing to do.

You see the problem? Most of the people in this part of the forum have worked pretty hard in getting their Thai up to scratch, and it is apparent when you take the time to read through the posts here. You get the feeling too, that most people here are pretty intelligent to have gotten to the stage they are at.

So to have someone come up and say 'well I learnt Thai in 2 years' while not outlining the primary reason you were able to do this, is an insult to everyones intelligence. To then say essentially 'well now, you shouldn't have assumed anything - naughty naughty' is a further insult.

As for little old moi, well I have refrained from commenting too much. I grew up speaking Thai in Australia, but missed out on any significant time to hone my skills in a native setting until my late teens and early 20's.

I can read well enough - the business sections of the newsaper are easiest for me, but my writing is &lt;deleted&gt; given that I never really had a chance to practice it extensively. Even at work, my bosses would ask that I write briefs to them in English. For them (foreign educated) English was more concise, rather than the long winded civil service Thai which is normally used (which I am good at reading, but crap at writing also).

In all likelihood, you speak Thai better than most, if not all, people here. Nor do I think anyone here particularly begrudges you for that particular reason. Rather, people have a problem with how you communicate (or not communicate) your achievements in learning Thai.

[et33.com]

in the beginning

i thought thai lang is impossible

but i guess you have to throw yourself into the water

and start swimming

either you make it

or drown

so jump and start swimming

else go find a rubber duck to float with... ha ha ha...

[Firefoxx]

It would have put your comment in a proper perspective, and I reckon about 95% of other people in your position would have done so. But as I said, thats the world we live in, where you extend that kind of information as a matter of course. For most people, that would have been the 'normal' thing to do.

You see the problem? Most of the people in this part of the forum have worked pretty hard in getting their Thai up to scratch, and it is apparent when you take the time to read through the posts here. You get the feeling too, that most people here are pretty intelligent to have gotten to the stage they are at.

Yes, I see the problem. The problem is that "normal" here has been pre-defined to exclude all other things. To put *your* comment in proper perspective, I grew up among English speakers who *did* learn Thai at an early age (and are very proficient at it). So yes, it's not an "abnormal" concept for me (and lots of others).

It's painfully obvious that I'm a new name in this forum (but not other forums), yet I've already been judged and pegged with a certain stereotype (normal) even before anyone has a clue as to whom I am. I *didn't* read all of the original posts here (you try it, in another big forum) but I *did* read new posts for a while before starting to post myself. I did *not* get any kind of indication that *everyone* was an English-speaking adult Thai learner, and that *everyone* would assume so.

You give me a modified script, I give you one back, one which would have gone much better: "It's not likely that an adult English-speaker could learn Thai within two years in normal language classes. When did you start? Were there any special circumstances?" No, it was more along the lines of "you're not who you claim you are" "you're not fluent" (no mention of adult or not, they just assume that I'd know), when I never claimed to be the picture that everyone had in their heads. When I say "rabbit", what do you think of? Small furry pet? The roaming wild animals in England? Bugs bunny? The Playboy mascot? It's different for everyone, yet I get the result of other people's imaginations forced on me without the benefit of the doubt. Really, would you immediately say someone is a liar for a short ambiguous statement when you don't know the details?

Once again, it was an afterthought. A short comment I made after providing the main arguments. Do you say, as an afterthought, "It's a nice day outside" or do you say "The sky is an azure blue with a spattering of clouds, 35 degrees, northerly wind speed of 5 mph with humidity at 15% and a 10% chance of rain in the afternoon". Do I provide all the raunchy details? Why should I? I'm not writing an autobiography.

So to have someone come up and say 'well I learnt Thai in 2 years' while not outlining the primary reason you were able to do this, is an insult to everyones intelligence. To then say essentially 'well now, you shouldn't have assumed anything - naughty naughty' is a further insult.

I am not a language guru, as was clearly shown by the early responses by Richard W and others (many of who were smart enough not to pass judgement on my ambiguous statement). I made (and believe) the main statement that Thai is not that hard to learn, based upon my own experience. I didn't know anything about "language distance" or critical age or whatnot, so I never supplied those details. Learning Thai at an early age wasn't something "abnormal" for me and I didn't know enough about the wild assumptions that would be made, and so those details were not relevant. Yes, if I were to write that sentence now, with the knowledge that I now posess, I would make it *very* clear how I learned thai and to what degree and on what planet, among other things, since it seems to be so alien a concept that I'm probably from another galaxy. Not opening up your mind to unknowns is an insult to your *own* intelligence.

I never did intend to insult anyone's intellgence. The insult was totally self-imagined, by those insulted. "Naughty naughty" is a fitting word, especially since you seem to think that everyone here calling me a liar is totally innocent of presumption.

In all likelihood, you speak Thai better than most, if not all, people here. Nor do I think anyone here particularly begrudges you for that particular reason. Rather, people have a problem with how you communicate (or not communicate) your achievements in learning Thai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know how well I speak Thai. I know how well I communicate. I also know how well people here communicate, in their own definition of "normalacy". Do you? I can turn the table on all the arguments that you have made, and they would be valid, even more so. Again, do you expect to give all relevant details (whether you knew what details were relevant or not) every single time you open your mouth? Again, do you expect to be eaten alive for omission of said details, when you didn't even know they were pertinent? And then to be chewed out and digested, since people didn't feel those details pertinent enough to mention themselves?

I'm now (after being called a liar, a pretentious SOB and other things) also being accused of deliberately misleading the poor saintly souls here (if I'm correct, "disingenuous".. probably comes out in the SATs sometime). If I said I never had such an intention, no one would listen. If I said to read my 200+ previous posts to search for evidence of such evil intentions, no one would bother. It's a concept set in stone in people's minds. It's just not *possible* to be wrong, yes? Especially not about something like juding people's characters. Or their ages. Through the internet.

I for one find it *really* "abnormal" that *no one* (other than me) in this forum started learning Thai when they were young. I ask this: Has a poll of all members been taken? Has this been established, as fact? I keep seeing it used as an argument, so I'd really like to know. It's relevant.

Snowleopard, are short meaningless insults all that you can manage these days? I am disappointed. Sincerely. Please make some kind of an effort.

Edit, appended: The meaning of อวดฉลาด is to claim superior intelligence to others when in fact you lack said intelligence. The meaning of disingenuous to to deliberately mislead. Call me one, call me the other, but don't say that they're one and the same. You can call me อวดอ้าง or pretending to be someone I'm not, when *in fact* I never did pretend to be an adult learner of Thai.

[LivinLOS]

Firstly let me state I have no place in any technical argument of Thai as my Thai is fairly hopeless and my language abilities are admitedly poor however..

Just a small observation or question.. I notice that you (firefoxx) have been making statements that Thai is 'easier' to learn than English and also that when reading and English newspaper there are words that are not recognisable to you as well as using this forum to 'practice' your English skills (note I am not trying to put words in your mouth or missquote you, and if my perception of your comments is incorrect just say so) but is English your mother tounge ??

I also saw mention of SAT scores so perhaps it is, but as an adult native English speaker I never read a newspaper and find a unknown word, (never say never, but lets say 100 newspapers and MAYBE one word) the last time I found a new word was a couple of months back and it was a anatomical word (possibly latin) for an odd part of the body ie a name.

If approaching Thai from a language other than English as a mother tounge that may also account for why Thai came easier to you. If not then it may also show how learning early in your learning pattern for languages has a large impact (eg your English is imperfect / less than fluent; not trying to be critical, merely making an observation) as your first language is only partially developed it then makes sense that adopting a second language is then easier with the first not so well hammered into place.

Please again note I am not trying to be critical, or create any argument (nothing disingenious here I promise ) these are merely points I noted as I went through the thread.

[sabaijai]

Firstly let me state I have no place in any technical argument of Thai as my Thai is fairly hopeless and my language abilities are admitedly poor however..

Just a small observation or question.. I notice that you (firefoxx) have been making statements that Thai is 'easier' to learn than English and also that when reading and English newspaper there are words that are not recognisable to you as well as using this forum to 'practice' your English skills (note I am not trying to put words in your mouth or missquote you, and if my perception of your comments is incorrect just say so) but is English your mother tounge ??

I also saw mention of SAT scores so perhaps it is, but as an adult native English speaker I never read a newspaper and find a unknown word, (never say never, but lets say 100 newspapers and MAYBE one word) the last time I found a new word was a couple of months back and it was a anatomical word (possibly latin) for an odd part of the body ie a name.

If approaching Thai from a language other than English as a mother tounge that may also account for why Thai came easier to you.  If not then it may also show how learning early in your learning pattern for languages has a large impact (eg your English is imperfect / less than fluent; not trying to be critical, merely making an observation) as your first language is only partially developed it then makes sense that adopting a second language is then easier with the first not so well hammered into place.

Please again note I am not trying to be critical, or create any argument (nothing disingenious here I promise ) these are merely points I noted as I went through the thread.

The newspaper topic comes up again. I think relative ability to read newspapers in X language is probably a convenient and relatively accurate measure pf proficiency (fluency if you will) since newspapers are, by and large, written to be comprehensible to an educated 11-12 year-old. This is as true for Thai newspapers as for English (or so I'm told by Thai language educators).

Like LivingLOS, for me it's rare to come across a word in the Bangkok Post or the New York Times that I don't know. I read Matichon - the only decent Thai newspaper - regularly, more often the weekly version but also the daily one on occasion as well. In an average issue I'd say I come across at least 100, and not more than 200 (very rough figures, just a guesstimate) Thai words that I don't know. I suppose out of tens of thousands of words in a given issue that's not bad but then again I don't often read every single article, so the ratio is signifcant enough that I regularly miss the gist of some sentences.

My wife (native Thai) is also a regular reader of Matichon. Her education extends to having completed two years of post-mathayom education. I just asked her if she comes across words in Matichon that she doesn't understand. She thought about it for a few seconds, and then said the only words she misses, on occasion, are English words spelt in Thai letters. She says she can't recall the last time she came across a Thai word in Matichon that she didn't know.

So my wife gets the meaning of every sentence and I miss a few, more than a few if you count every single sentence in every single article. Thus I would be more than reluctant to call my self fluent at a native level, even though I've done a fair amount of paid Thai interpreting (in courts and hospitals) and translation work in the past, and currently serve on Rajabhat University's directorial council, which entails regular participation at สภามหาวิทยาลัย meetings. Maximum self scoring: 4 on a scale of 5.

Most, no make that all, of my Thai acquaintances tell me I speak Thai like a native. But here again, my wife has been helpful in bringing me down to earth, as she regularly corrects my pronunciation. If it weren't for the fact that I have someone close at hand willing to be frank about it, I might have been fooled into thinking I had no accent.

I started studying Thai at age 23 and have been here 27 years now. Whether I'm fluent or near-fluent, or whatever, one thing I can say with confidence is that in spite of being an avid Thai learner with several years of instruction, it took me a fairly long time (five years to get a good base, then another 8-10 yrs to fill in sufficient gaps, especially the cultural underpinnings -- references to TV, famous films, Thai music, Thai art, cuisine, etc) to reach the point where I could really hold my own in a lengthy conversation of social substance with multiple Thai listeners, for example, and I'm still learning something new every single day. During the time I've studied Thai I made much faster comparative progress in Malay-Indonesian and Mandarin Chinese.

It's nice to encourage people to study Thai by assuring them that it's not impossible. And it's not. But it's not so nice to set beginners up for failure or loss of heart when they find the reality is not so rosy.

Then again it may depend on your standards. Some people are willing to settle for less in the way of Thai language proficiency than others. By the end of the 1st year I studied Thai, I knew I wanted to go as far as possible.

This must be a controversial topic since it has gone on for over 67 responses by now ...

[bannork]

'I for one find it *really* "abnormal" that *no one* (other than me) in this forum started learning Thai when they were young. I ask this: Has a poll of all members been taken? Has this been established, as fact? I keep seeing it used as an argument' (Firefoxx)

Any cursory review of the language used in the current or backpages of this forum shows that the contributors are,at least 90%, adult learners of Thai. The contributors' level of English often contains puns and jokes thicker in the air than Firefoxxes,(do the Americans still produce that plane?), which, when compared to their straightforward requests for Thai translations, plainly reveals that many are recent learners whilst others have been on the path longer.

And surely that is how it should be. I'm a native speaker of English, why on earth would I log on to a website entitled 'English language' unless I wanted some material for English lessons, or out of the goodness of my heart I wanted to help learners of English?

Firefoxx, you should do the same, either stop bleating on about how misunderstood you've been, wittering on using hyperbole and immature language, or get on helping improve the Thai language of fellow site users.

bannork.

[Firefoxx]

A big reason why this has gone on for so long is because people keep adding to what I said (and taking it for fact that I said it) and conveniently skipping over and ignoring what I did say. I always respond to everyone's arguments yet do not get the benefit of a response (at least not to my arguments). It doesn't add up to a very coherent argument. Perhaps contraversial, but not coherent.

Yes, English is my first language. I grew up on twinkies and cafeteria pizzas. I was stuffed with knowledge about things like Honest Abe and Paul Bunyan. I was a typical kid.

I do agree that typical news articles are written for the "grammar school" level. But a newspaper, contrary to its name, doesn't contain only news. Like I said before, I'll find time to read the Washington Post and some Thai newspaper (perhaps Thairath, since it's the most popular) to find words I don't know. Perhaps that will end the discussion. Perhaps not. Then again, as sabaijai says, it's his interpretation of fluency, and not mine. I really wonder why he's surprised that newspapers are mentioned, since he brought the subject up in the first place.

Perhaps my English *is* imperfect. I don't know. I really don't know what "perfect" English is. I'm not going to take yet another standardized test to find out, and I'm fairly satisfied with my old scores. On the other hand, I can assure that I've seen quite a few adult native English speakers whose English skills are even more imperfect than mine. I use Thai nearly exclusively outside this forum, so you could say that my English skills have not been used very often. Isn't this nice? Lose all claim to Thai fluency and then lose all claim to English fluency as well (it was only a matter of time). Perhaps I should claim fluency to Baby-speak. Goo goo gaa gaa? Anyone?

To elaborate a bit more on my previous statement: I grew up among people who learned Thai at an early age. They learned Thai very quickly and I would call their Thai "fluent" in my definition of the word (I'm sorry I have to keep tagging that on. It's of utmost necessary to some people here.). They took only a few years (2, 3, 4, 5), not unlike me. Some didn't have English as a native language, others did. I think they're somehow located in another dimension, since they're supposed to not exist in this universe. However, it's not that *all* the kids I knew were this way. Some just refused to learn. Some just weren't good at it. Some can't speak better than your typical farang tourist to this day.

On the other hand, I've also met native Thai speakers who speak English extremely well, and, in my definition of the word, fluently. Other Thais are amazed at these people, since English is *supposed* to be very very *very* hard to learn. Yet there they are, plain as day. Well, gosh, if that doesn't take it all.

But then, if my English is imperfect, then perhaps my judgement of their English isn't that correct after all? I sincerely don't know what to think. Really, has my English been *that* attrocious?

To someone who's learning the language, a native speaker can seem like a god who knows everything. In the Thai university I was called the "walking dictionary" (English dictionary of course) since I could tell anyone what practically any English word meant in Thai. Yet, I somehow flounder on disingenuous. Hmm.

You're always in a constant state of learning with languages. They encompass more than just the popular vocabulary. Nobody ever stops learning until they're dead. However, the point here is when do you achieve fluency, in your definition of the word? When can you call yourself fluent, with confidence? I was pretty confident in my English and Thai proficiency before. However, with the popular consensus saying otherwise on both counts, I'm not so sure.

I'm glad somebody actually read the thread before jumping in with accusations and conclusions. Pretty rare, no? Hmm, no insult of the day.

[Firefoxx]

Any cursory review of the language used in the current or backpages of this forum shows that the contributors are,at least 90%, adult learners of Thai. The contributors' level of English often contains puns and jokes thicker in the air than Firefoxxes,(do the Americans still produce that plane?), which, when compared to their straightforward requests for Thai translations, plainly reveals that many are recent learners whilst others have been on the path longer.

And surely that is how it should be. I'm a native speaker of English, why on earth would I log on to a website entitled 'English language' unless I wanted some material for English lessons, or out of the goodness of my heart I wanted to help learners of English?

Firefoxx, you should do the same, either stop bleating on about how misunderstood you've been, wittering on using hyperbole and immature language, or get on helping improve the Thai language of fellow site users.

bannork.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

bannork, you of all people should have seen how I've responded in other threads. You of all people should know how I normally respond. You of all people should have seen that I've been helpful when I could contribute. You are a regular contributor, and I do not expect you to know how a newcomer would view this forum or its membereship. Go to another forum. Read ten or less topics. With this, draw a conclusion on something that's *specific* like, for example, when they started learning English.

I argue my points with a passion, but I only state facts. I do not lie and I do not intentionally mislead. Another point: Even if 100% of the people here *are* adult learners of the Thai language (what with all the elaborate Thai sayings being thrown about), why the rabid xenophobia? Are we back in Gulliver's Travels, with big endian and small endian societies, refusing to believe that the other is correct? Is it that hard to accept that there *are* people who have led a different life, have had different experiences?

I'm the one in this situation, the one who's being chewed up for something that I truly did not say. I don't expect anyone to understand or sympathise. I diligently respond to accusations and arguments, as civilly as possible, since I, like any other, do not like to be accused (กล่าวหากันลอยๆ) of something I didn't do or say. Is it suddenly wrong to speak in ones own defense? I also respond because I find it *very* rude to not respond to something obviously addressed to me. I'm sorry that I use hyperbole, but I didn't go to an American university and major in literature long enough to gush poetic prose at your level (and I've already said so). But I truly didn't believe that you of all people would add more nasty insults to the mix. Who knows why you would logon here, but it certainly doesn't seem to be out of the goodness of your heart if this is what comes from it.

My, my. This thread certainly doesn't lack for hostility. Brings out the worst in everyone.

[sabaijai]

FF, as has been pointed out by several members, you raised a few eyebrows here simply because you didn't mention up front the age at which you learned, while putting forward the proposition that Thai isn't any more difficult than English. Obviously some here interpreted this as disingenuous behaviour. Your responses haven't included any 'facts' to counter their perception, only your feelings and a few anecdotes.

I never said Thai was more difficult than English, never disagreed with your notion that it wasn't. I only tried to point out that in a vacuum such comparisons are meaningless. I introduced a set of known facts having to do with the relative difficulty of learning foreign languages, namely age and language distance. You seemed to accept these notions only after much teeth-gnashing

By the way you're just as guilty of putting words in other mouths as anyone. I never wrote that I was surprised the newspaper topic came up again. I was applauding the use of it as a convenient measure of fluency (naturally, since I brought it up in the first place).

You seem to have difficulty distinguishing implied meanings from direct statements. Language doesn't seem to interest you all that much, as a topic in of itself, so you're at great risk wading into discussions such as these (just to be clear, knowing you're sensitive, that's meant as a joke).

I for one take you at your word that you weren't trying to conceal the fact that you were a 'ringer', that you really were naive enough to think your learning situation was typical in the thaivisa.com context. I admit it seems a little hard to comprehend, but I don't see that we lose a lot in the discussion either way. I'm just happy to see people appreciating the fact that child language learning is a different kettle of fish from adult language learning.

Appreciating that difference can go a long way towards relieving the frustrations of an adult learner, and more importantly towards adopting learning strategies that work for the adult. One example of confusing the two learning situations is the so-called Natural Approach adopted around the world for foreign language learning in the 1970s (and continuing to this day in dark corners here and there ), which attempted to apply the notion that comprehension (understanding) must precede production (e.g., speaking or writing), so it was best to be exposed to a lot of language input before you tried to speak or write. This is in fact the way children learn language, but as has been well documented since the days Stephen Krashen (perpetrator of the Natural Approach) came 'crashing' down, this is not the way adults learn a second language. Adults can often produce far more than they can comprehend in a 'natural' situation, in the beginning and intermediate stages of 2nd lang acquisition. And there is no evidence that avoiding or minimising production will help an adult learn more or faster, in fact studies indicate the opposite. An adult simply cannot successfully duplicate the learning process of a pre-pubescent child.

So calm down, FF. Let's leave the personal recriminations behind, and look at the real issues, how we as adult learners can improve our Thai. I assume that you're an adult now, and that even your Thai needs improving.

[Boon Mee]

" An adult simply cannot successfully duplicate the learning process of a pre-pubescent child."

Agree 100% with that statement, sabaijai.

There's a poem in one of my AUA books that lists all the words in Thai starting with "ใ". It's recommended for kids to learn but not adults to distinguish between "ใ" and "ไ".

Somehow, memorizing that poem just wouldn't work for an adult.

[RDN]

Washington Irving: "There is never jealousy where there is not strong regard."

[Firefoxx]

FF, as has been pointed out by several members, you raised a few eyebrows here simply because you didn't mention up front the age at which you learned, while putting forward the proposition that Thai isn't any more difficult than English. Obviously some here interpreted this as disingenuous behaviour. Your responses haven't included any 'facts' to counter their perception, only your feelings and a few anecdotes.

I have stated how I learned Thai and in what conditions and at what age and how I interpret the meaning of "fluency", among other things. They're facts to me, much more concrete than anything I know about others in this forum. Perhaps what I meant to say is that I don't fabricate facts just to make an argument, in other words, I speak truthfully, and therefore I resent being called "disingenuous", even jokingly (and I don't see how it was humorous).

I never said Thai was more difficult than English, never disagreed with your notion that it wasn't. I only tried to point out that in a vacuum such comparisons are meaningless. I introduced a set of known facts having to do with the relative difficulty of learning foreign languages, namely age and language distance. You seemed to accept these notions only after much teeth-gnashing 

I don't think you ever did say that. I don't remember where I say that you did. I do remember being guessed at saying that Thai was a piece of cake, that's about it. About accepting age and language distance, I replied at the very beginning: "I can understand the concept of language distance. Japanese and Chinese are closely related, and so it would be conceivably easier to learn. Europeaen languages are also similar, with similar alphabets. It's probably a matter of having one language embedded into your psyche and then having to learn a very unfamiliar one." If that's akin to saying "&lt;deleted&gt; to language distance!" then I must really be out of touch with English. The topic of age was brought up only much later, and I never refuted it, going so far as to say that if I had known about age impacts and the fact that people were assuming my age, I would have made my age clear in the first place. Like I said, I don't take back things that I didn't say.

About the relative difficulties of Thai and English, I really don't know what vacuum you're talking about. What I was aiming for was that, basically, since Thai has more "structure" than English (spelling, etc.) yet with similar (but simplified) syntax and whatnot, it shouldn't be considered as extremely difficult. I didn't say anyting about native speakers of English and I didn't mention any ages, although now I know that age does make a difference and that there is the concept of language distance. I started this topic to learn about these things, not to assert that I know everything (again, something already made clear at the beginning).

By the way you're just as guilty of putting words in other mouths as anyone. I never wrote that I was surprised the newspaper topic came up again. I was  applauding the use of it as a convenient measure of fluency (naturally, since I brought it up in the first place).

ํYou said: "The newspaper topic comes up again." I took that to mean that you didn't think it would come up again, hence surprise ie. "A rat problem again. Didn't the exterminator come just last week?" or boredom, ie. "Corn flakes again. I wish we could have bacon once in a while." I apologise if I mistook your intentions, or your meaning. I usually don't interpret a statement like that to mean applauding something.

You seem to have difficulty distinguishing implied meanings from direct statements. Language doesn't seem to interest you all that much, as a topic in of itself, so you're at great risk wading into discussions such as these (just to be clear, knowing you're sensitive, that's meant as a joke).

I really don't know what jokes are anymore. I'm getting pounded anyways. Getting jokingly pounded by people with supposedly good intentions doesn't feel any different from the bad when you're in this situation, especially when it's too subtle to tell the difference. Insults are insults, and even they're it's meant in jest, others (the sincere pounders) can use them as ammo. What started this was perceiving implied meanings in direct statements. Once again I'm in the wrong, but no one else is.

Actually I've always compared Thai to English. It's natural for someone who's used both for quite some time. The relation between the two does interest me, and that's one reason why I started this topic: to get comments. Not on my moral fiber, not on my intentions, not on my hubris, but on the relation between Thai and English. The first reply I get is a scathing comment on how I'm not original (and probably guilty of plagiarism) and, yes, lying about my claims (as yet no indication of the exact claim). That should have been a sign to me to delete my original post.

Alas, I wanted to wait for more academic comments.

I for one take you at your word that you weren't trying to conceal the fact that you were a 'ringer', that you really were naive enough to think your learning situation was typical in the thaivisa.com context. I admit it seems a little hard to comprehend, but I don't see that we lose a lot in the discussion either way. I'm just happy to see people appreciating the fact that child language learning is a different kettle of fish from adult language learning.

I didn't think that it was typical for people here. I wasn't naive enough think that it was the norm for everyone (here or elsewhere), since it actually isn't. But I also didn't think that people would suddenly interpret someone else's experiences as their own, a cut and paste of one's own life into a stranger's life, and not appreciate that there are some people who have started learning a second language at a younger age. These people do exist, and while not exactly numerous compared to adult learners, there are enough to merit an open mind. The fact that I didn't think that young learners were an alien concept coupled with the fact that it was an afterthought led to the omission. To err is human. It was a matter of writing the wrong thing in the wrong place. But not intentionally, but I doubt anyone really believes that.

I'm not going to reply to the studies paragraph. Like I said before, I'm no linguistics expert.

So calm down, FF. Let's leave the personal recriminations behind, and look at the real issues, how we as adult learners can improve our Thai.  I assume that you're an adult now, and that even your Thai needs improving. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think I've been quite calm, despite being casually called one despicable thing after another. I like to stick to reason and not crude insults. Yes, I am an adult. Age 30. Male. I think people who've read this thread have more facts about my life than most of my friends. I've had to divulge so much of my life so that I could clear my name. Yet it has been an exercise in futility. Even those who've seen my typical responses now stoop to criticizing my writing style instead of arguing the main points.

As I said, learning a language is neverending.

I hope I've toned down my inexcusable use of hyperbole enough to satisfy everyone. I'm sorry I can't do anything about the lack of sophisticated vocabulary, but my words are already getting twisted around enough in their current state.

[bannork]

Washington Irving: "There is never jealousy where there is not strong regard."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Envy rather than jealousy I think RDN. It could have saved us all a lot of time and energy if our parents had transferred us to Thailand at the age of 10; but then again one would have missed out on certain things growing up in the teen years. Of course some straddle both cultures easily, I'm thinking of the Thai politician, Aphisit Wejachira, the prominent Democrat deputy leader(please excuse the surname spelling), eloquent in both Thai and English; but does he understand all the Monty Python jokes, can he read and fully comprehend the Sun newspaper,(God forbid)? Do some cultural references slip beneath the radar of the bilinguals? bannork

[Richard W]

I'm a native speaker of English, why on earth would I log on to a website entitled 'English language' unless I wanted some material for English lessons, or out of the goodness of my heart I wanted to help learners of English?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you mean 'Learning English', not 'English Language'! We came close to flame war on this point.

[RDN]

Washington Irving: "There is never jealousy where there is not strong regard."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Envy rather than jealousy I think RDN. It could have saved us all a lot of time and energy if our parents had transferred us to Thailand at the age of 10; but then again one would have missed out on certain things growing up in the teen years. Of course some straddle both cultures easily, I'm thinking of the Thai politician, Aphisit Wejachira, the prominent Democrat deputy leader(please excuse the surname spelling), eloquent in both Thai and English; but does he understand all the Monty Python jokes, can he read and fully comprehend the Sun newspaper,(God forbid)? Do some cultural references slip beneath the radar of the bilinguals? bannork

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed - but it was the best quote I could come up with given the time I wanted to spend trying to calm everyone down I hope we can all get back to enjoying this forum, whether our ego has been bruised or not, enhanced or not, or - like me - just wishing I had 10% of the Thai language knowledge of you guys

[snowleopard]

Washington Irving: "There is never jealousy where there is not strong regard."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Envy rather than jealousy I think RDN. It could have saved us all a lot of time and energy if our parents had transferred us to Thailand at the age of 10; but then again one would have missed out on certain things growing up in the teen years. Of course some straddle both cultures easily, I'm thinking of the Thai politician, Aphisit Wejachira, the prominent Democrat deputy leader(please excuse the surname spelling), eloquent in both Thai and English; but does he understand all the Monty Python jokes, can he read and fully comprehend the Sun newspaper,(God forbid)? Do some cultural references slip beneath the radar of the bilinguals? bannork

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aphisit Wejachira (please excuse the surname spelling)

Weejashiva

eloquent in both Thai and English; but does he understand all the Monty Python jokes

Hopefully,one day he'll be able to get the jokes in "Ministry of Silly Walks"

Snowleopard

[Firefoxx]

I'll probably be flamed in some way for this, but a tip to anyone who wants to speed up their Thai learning process: Immerse yourself.

It's actually easier for most of you, since you're already in Thailand. But just being here is not yet enough, especially since Thailand has become so vastly westernised over the past few years.

Stop reading the Bangkok Post and pick up Thairath. Get rid of your UBC subscription and watch channel 3 soaps. Stop going to places with lots of English and just get around. Stop frequenting Starbucks and go eat noodles at the stalls. Stop watching English language flicks and see the latest Thai attempt instead. Stop talking to English speakers and talk (in Thai) to the Thais. Stop reading this forum (yeah, right). Get out, get about, and lead life like a Thai. It's all out there. Immerse yourself in Thai long enough and it'll seep in naturally.

Thais who've spent years upon years studying English in Thailand get nowhere near as good as a Thai who's gone a just few years to England or the US for their highschool/college/university education. They don't get to experience much Thai abroad, and so the immersion is near complete. I think it's fairly safe to say the opposite can be done with Thai.

[Boon Mee]

Would like to make a correction to a post I made the other day in this thread where I stated there's a Thai poem starting with all the "may muan" symbols.

What I should have said is that poem contains all 20 words spelled with "may muan" (ใ) so the easiest way for kids to remember spellings for all "ay" words is to memorize that poem.

For all rest of the "ay" words, use "may malay" (ไ)

Unfortunately, that method works better for children than adult learners of Thai which reinforces the point sabaijai made earlier:

"An adult simply cannot successfully duplicate the learning process of a pre-pubescent child."

บุญมี

[a man with a plan]

You know, there are more words that use ใ than apper in that poem. I don't know why they claim there are only 20 words that use it.

[sabaijai]

About the relative difficulties of Thai and English, I really don't know what vacuum you're talking about.

The vacuum of not specifying situational factors. Relative difficulty depends on the learning situation, age at start, whether you're talking about first or second language, language distance, etc. As someone pointed out towards the beginning of this thread, all languages are equally complex to a new-born.

Thus languages have no inherent relative difficulty, i.e., children have an equal capacity to learn any language. Or such is the consensus among linguists.

[bannork]

''I'll probably be flamed in some way for this, but a tip to anyone who wants to speed up their Thai learning process: Immerse yourself.

Stop reading the Bangkok Post and pick up Thairath. Get rid of your UBC subscription and watch channel 3 soaps. "

I prefer The Daily News, Firefoxx, seems to be more balanced in its coverage; I've just learnt ตื้บ meaning beat up,

อ่านขาด '' decide\conclude correctly

ฟันธงไป '' for sure

none of these were in the dictionaries I possess; luckily I have some helpful Thai friends. But don't ask anyone to watch Thai soaps Firefoxx, too many long, deep and meaningless stares with the music rising to a crescendo in the background, aaaaaagh!

bannork.

[Edward B]

Get rid of your UBC subscription and watch channel 3 soaps.

Warning, may result in heavy addiction!

Thai soaps Firefoxx, too many long, deep and meaningless stares with the music rising to a crescendo in the background, aaaaaagh!

Yeah but not only will you learn how to talk like a native, you'll learn how to stare like one.

[Edward B]

You know, there are more words that use ใ than apper in that poem.  I don't know why they claim there are only 20 words that use it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're probably referring to all the compound words, eg the word ใจ apears in hundreds of compound words. Ignoring these, there are only 20.

[Firefoxx]

I think that the conclusion is that Thai is a relatively difficult language to learn for an adult native speaker of English. Not that it in itself is inherently more structurally complex than other languages.

Chinese, I think, is a language that is very different from both English and Thai in that it relies on pictograms instead of spellings. I personally know of native Chinese speakers who can speak, read and write both English and Thai very well. But I also know of their peers who are proficient in only one or the other, and others yet who are weak in both. I really can't draw a conclusion on the relative difficulties from this.

I asked a Thai friend about the newspaper. He agreed with me about reading it front to back: The news articles are very basic but not so the specialist columns. He reckoned (without actually doing a reading, no newspaper handy at the time) that he would find at least a few words he didn't know. Of course, he's a friend, so he's probably biased.

Thai soaps are not for the faint of heart, or the avid sitcom fan. They're monotonous and use a very correct form of speech to avoid confrontations with the censors. If you've watched one, you've probably heard all the background music you'll ever hear, since the music is reused so often (and never appropriate for the situation). But Thais love 'em, and if you want to get into the Thai psyche, you just have to endure.

[RDN]

....Get rid of your UBC subscription and watch channel 3 soaps....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.... too many long, deep and meaningless stares with the music rising to a crescendo in the background, aaaaaagh!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aaaaaargh indeed!

.... but not only will you learn how to talk like a native, you'll learn how to stare like one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...you just have to endure...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, I do! And how I love the sound quality! People shouting so loudly their words are distorted, people wearing microphones under their clothes so when they hug and speak you can't hear a word they say and then the automatic background noise levelling - when there's no speech or music, you can hear every squeak and rustle of the people, the furniture, birds outside, cars passing by... it's hilarious! I'm sure "Crossroads" was never that bad