Is There A Serious Flaw In Padi Dive Training ?

[lostboy777]

Yes of course it's flawed,anyone thats been through the old BSAC or SAA training knows that.

Difference is that the BSAC/SAA way usually takes months an months to qualify,lots of scenario training to get you ready for your fist open water dives.

The PADI system is all about getting your money fast.

Thats my opinion.

Before the flaming starts about what is the best way to learn,I want to add that I've been diving more than 20 years,qualified the SAA way to dive leader,then done the BSAC way to dive leader again,then crossed over to PADI and went on to master scuba diver.

Froggs

Your right Padi coures are often a bit rushed with low results, and your average padi diver is definately not capable of diving without a divemaster / instructor,,, but the down-side of BSAC and CMAS etc divers is that they often think they know it all, making them often more dangerous than Padi divers / especially when they are diving somewhere they havn't dived before....I have seen many BSAC etc divers who 'talk a great game' but when you get them out there they are quite simply useless.... I also see many that have no care for the environment,,,but i don't know if that is divers from certain countries that might favour those organisations / rather than the training from a particular organisation.

In my opinion solo diving with a redundant air source is the safest and best if you are experienced.

[sysardman]

<br />Excellent posts 12drinkmore,and totally correct.<br />I would like to add that if the proper training had been recieved,an out of air situation would never occur ! (unless equipment failure)which is very rare).<br />If you are starting a dive with 250/300 bar in your bottle,you should be heading to the surface with 70/100 bar still left in the bottle at the end of the dive.<br />golden rule..plan your dive..dive your plan.<br />When I did my training years ago,we spent a day in a flooded dry dock(20 metres deep) practising "out of air ascents" 1 breath of air from bottom to top,2 safety divers right next to us in training,it took more than 1 go to get the feel of it.<br />I did run out of air once before whilst doing a deco stop at 10m,fortunatlely I didnt get bent.<br />Safe diving everyone <img src="style_emoticons/default/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /><br /><br />Froggs<br /><br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

You will find that the standard fill pressure for recreational diving is 200 bar (3500 psi) and the recommended return to surface pressure is 50 bar (unless you are diving beyond 30 metres). I just wanted to point this out because having tanks filled to 250/300 bar can introduce safety issues, returning to the surface on 70/100 bar is just very conservative.

[froggshw]

"You will find that the standard fill pressure for recreational diving is 200 bar (3500 psi) and the recommended return to surface pressure is 50 bar (unless you are diving beyond 30 metres). I just wanted to point this out because having tanks filled to 250/300 bar can introduce safety issues, returning to the surface on 70/100 bar is just very conservative".

I don't doubt what you say,it might be normal practice now.

In the UK a few years ago I was getting my cylinders pumped to between 250/300 bar after they had cooled off.

I was regulary diving in excess of 40+ metres,more than a few times over 60 metres,all on wrecks,and in search of brass,like portholes and the ships telegraph.I did eventually get a porthole,and after I got it,I started diving sensibly again.But..I had brass fever for years before I did.

Froggs

[limbos]

Froggshw,

Brass fever huh? Maybe you should try to read 'Shadow Divers' and any book you can find about the Andrea Doria. These books have some good stories about what can happen at these depths. Folks with similar fevers did not always come up alive.

Did you dive on air?

[froggshw]

Hi Limbos,

Thanks for the book reference,can I buy it in Thailand?

Yes all the diving I ever done was on air,nitrox was unheard of(for sport diving) when I was doing these kind of dives.

There was a regular group of us that used to dive together,all after the same thing..Brass..!!

Our search took us all around the UK,from sth coast to Scotland,done many "live aboard" boat trips for a week or more to the Scilly Isles and the Channel Islands.

Maybe I should write a book about our experiences,I've had some "near death" ones myself,probably still got Micro bubbles in my blood now

Froggs

[percy2]

Maybe I should write a book about our experiences,I've had some "near death" ones myself,probably still got Micro bubbles in my blood now

Froggs

Maybe you should change your nick from Froggs to Fizzy

Cheers

[froggshw]

Heh Percy

How about Fizzing Frogg ?

Froggs

[limbos]

Hi Limbos,

Thanks for the book reference,can I buy it in Thailand?

Yes all the diving I ever done was on air,nitrox was unheard of(for sport diving) when I was doing these kind of dives.

There was a regular group of us that used to dive together,all after the same thing..Brass..!!

Our search took us all around the UK,from sth coast to Scotland,done many "live aboard" boat trips for a week or more to the Scilly Isles and the Channel Islands.

Maybe I should write a book about our experiences,I've had some "near death" ones myself,probably still got Micro bubbles in my blood now

Froggs

You may get lucky to get them in BKK but your best bet most likely is Amazon or the like.

Diving on Nitrox to these depths is not recomendable!

Sounds interesting though, the places you've been to!

[froggshw]

limbos

Yes,diving has taken me to some cool places over the years.

Some memorable ones are:

Diving with Manatee's in the North of Florida(Crystal River)...seals in the Scilly Isles

Big Manta Rays and Baracuda in Barbados..Leopard sharks in Phuket.

Done some nice cliff diving in Malta(Gozo)out from the inland sea,But Scotland is best for deep cliffs around the Oban area(west coast)sound of Mull)

I've dived wrecks on top of other wrecks(hit the same rock and sank on top of each other)

Guess the most famous wreck would be The Tory Canyon,on the seven stones reef(about 17 miles west of Penzance,UK)

most modern would be The Aolian Sky,sank in 1979 East of Weymouth in 20-30 mtrs.

Once 6 of us dived on a wreck called the Empress on the East coast,UK..and came up with over 100lb of lobster,my cats ate it for weeks,I was bored of it by then.

These are just a few.

How about you guys?what floats your boat?.mine was always wrecks,and drift diving...once hit my head on a sunken ww2 bomber in the English Channel.

Froggs

[skippybangkok]

Froggshw,

Brass fever huh? Maybe you should try to read 'Shadow Divers' and any book you can find about the Andrea Doria. These books have some good stories about what can happen at these depths. Folks with similar fevers did not always come up alive.

Did you dive on air?

could not put that book down ! Good reading, especially for people who dive on air at 60m. Will stop you in our tracks for ever.

In my silly days, hit 59.6 and was as high as a kite ( happy, feeling like i dont want to go up anymore , cant find my torch and giggling about it like a girl) . Ascending from that dive, passed Fred (RIP) the tech diver on his mega slow ascent

Another dive, got entangled at 57m on a wreck near Kho Tao ( try untagle your self at that depth with laughing gas !). ( Remember the process - just got down, got snagged - thought "sh it" - dont panic - calm now, take it easy - check air - 150 Bar ......... ok, we got tons of time, lets figure this one out ....... obviously i did )

Proud ? - must admit it was a kick then to go to 59.6m , but now i put it down as "ignorant and irresponsible" in hind sight. These days i never go beyond 35m ( unless pushed down by current at Similans once from 15m to 42 - YES, DOWN CURRENTS DO EXIST -( eating dirt ) ). Prefer 20m or shallower, and max time.

Will let the experts pitch in, but i believe the boundry between being consciousness and unconsciousness beyond about 50m on air is variable, you might get lucky one day, and less on the next.

[limbos]

limbos

Yes,diving has taken me to some cool places over the years.

Some memorable ones are:

Diving with Manatee's in the North of Florida(Crystal River)...seals in the Scilly Isles

Big Manta Rays and Baracuda in Barbados..Leopard sharks in Phuket.

Done some nice cliff diving in Malta(Gozo)out from the inland sea,But Scotland is best for deep cliffs around the Oban area(west coast)sound of Mull)

I've dived wrecks on top of other wrecks(hit the same rock and sank on top of each other)

Guess the most famous wreck would be The Tory Canyon,on the seven stones reef(about 17 miles west of Penzance,UK)

most modern would be The Aolian Sky,sank in 1979 East of Weymouth in 20-30 mtrs.

Once 6 of us dived on a wreck called the Empress on the East coast,UK..and came up with over 100lb of lobster,my cats ate it for weeks,I was bored of it by then.

These are just a few.

How about you guys?what floats your boat?.mine was always wrecks,and drift diving...once hit my head on a sunken ww2 bomber in the English Channel.

Froggs

Froggs,

If you're still into diving deep, you should check out Jamie on Koh Tao with the MV Trident, they do some exciting wreck diving in the Gulf and find new wrecks on a regular base, a lot originating from WWII.

Have a look at his website here

[limbos]

Froggshw,

Brass fever huh? Maybe you should try to read 'Shadow Divers' and any book you can find about the Andrea Doria. These books have some good stories about what can happen at these depths. Folks with similar fevers did not always come up alive.

Did you dive on air?

could not put that book down ! Good reading, especially for people who dive on air at 60m. Will stop you in our tracks for ever.

In my silly days, hit 59.6 and was as high as a kite ( happy, feeling like i dont want to go up anymore , cant find my torch and giggling about it like a girl) . Ascending from that dive, passed Fred (RIP) the tech diver on his mega slow ascent

Another dive, got entangled at 57m on a wreck near Kho Tao ( try untagle your self at that depth with laughing gas !). ( Remember the process - just got down, got snagged - thought "sh it" - dont panic - calm now, take it easy - check air - 150 Bar ......... ok, we got tons of time, lets figure this one out ....... obviously i did )

Proud ? - must admit it was a kick then to go to 59.6m , but now i put it down as "ignorant and irresponsible" in hind sight. These days i never go beyond 35m ( unless pushed down by current at Similans once from 15m to 42 - YES, DOWN CURRENTS DO EXIST -( eating dirt ) ). Prefer 20m or shallower, and max time.

Will let the experts pitch in, but i believe the boundry between being consciousness and unconsciousness beyond about 50m on air is variable, you might get lucky one day, and less on the next.

Hi Skippy,

Sounds like some crazy dives. Guess you heard the Jungle drums once in while back in the days.

[froggshw]

limbos

Hey thanks for the link great site.

Do you know Jamie.?

I ask because I knew a Jamie that used to run a similar set up in the UK,but sold up more than a few years ago and I lost contact with him.

Just wondering if its the same guy,bit of a coincidence they share the same name.Guy I knew had an 80ft boat operating out of Plymouth UK.

Froggs

[stevenl]

I have the book Shadow Divers here by the way.

So if you're in the area..

I could also post it to you, just send me a PM.

[skippybangkok]

Hi Skippy,

Sounds like some crazy dives. Guess you heard the Jungle drums once in while back in the days.

LOL...... ignorance is bliss. I remember the dive -Vertical Wreck when it was still vertical. Get in the water, air out of BCD, and basically sky dived down to about 50m. There was a silt fog at the ground level, so we took the last 10m more slowly. Touched the propeller at 59.6m

On another trip, will never forget being on my back at 40 meters, looking up in the crystal clear water and seeing the other divers at about 15m circling around the wreck - if anything is as close to being on a space station watching other astronauts - this is it ! ( or maybe being Narked made if feel that way ).

Vertical Wreck was a cool dive .

[limbos]

limbos

Hey thanks for the link great site.

Do you know Jamie.?

I ask because I knew a Jamie that used to run a similar set up in the UK,but sold up more than a few years ago and I lost contact with him.

Just wondering if its the same guy,bit of a coincidence they share the same name.Guy I knew had an 80ft boat operating out of Plymouth UK.

Froggs

I do know Jamie a little bit and I seriously doubt it's the same Jamie that you know, since MV Trident Jamie on Koh Tao, is in Thailand for over 10 years already.

[AleG]

Speaking of holding one's breath and all that, actually what one shouldn't do is close the airway, you can keep your throat open so that air can bubble out naturally when you go up or water go in when you go down... hopefully before you get a lungful of water you'll realize that you shouldn't be fooling around like that.

In the meaning of not actively inhaling or exhaling but keeping the lungs "open", I hold my breath many times, for example when having my picture taken without a regulator on, or when I want to crawl closer to some critter without spooking them with the noise of my bubbles.. actually I shouldn't call that "holding my breath" but rather, not breathing, to show the difference.

PADI training says that every time you take the regulator off your mouth you should release a continuous stream of bubbles to prevent lung injury. The fact is that method is simply easier to monitor by the instructor and easier to control for the student than simply keeping your airway open. In my opinion in the event of a emergency controlled accent it's better to let the air flow out naturally than forcefully release it out to "sing your way to the surface" as the manual says, it would be easy to run out of air before reaching the surface.

The problem is that it usually takes a conscious effort to not close the glottis (the valve at the back of the mouth) when not breathing, so it's easy to inadvertently close and hold in your breath and that's what can lead to barotrauma when the air wants to expand but there's way out. The problem is that this is a rather fine point that can get confusing to beginners, so to play it safe the rule is "No breatholding at all ever!"