Crime Re-enactment

[12DrinkMore]

The BIBs seem to be very keen on taking crime re-enactment photos. There was even one case I remember, where a young girl victim had to pose with the guy who had assaulted her, probably the last person on earth she would want to meet.

Even I have had to pose for the BIBs when my place was broken into. I had to stand looking serious pointing at the empy spot where the dvd-player used to be.

What are the BIBs trying to achieve?

[Boater]

there was a very good article in the Bangkok Post on Sunday regarding this

It was original idea was taken from the British back in the 1920's, but of course the British abolished this many many years ago,

i will try find the link and post it

tx

[Heng]

The victim's rarely actually participate, unless they express a desire to. They are usually stand-ins.

IMO it's a good practice that helps to keep criminals from flip-flopping on their statements. You know, criminals are known to do that. It's also a nice spot check to see if the re-enactment lines up with the forensic evidence to deter one person confessing in place of another. Criminals are also known to do that (here gangs will often send the youngest and often non-adult member to confess; he gets a super light sentence and when he gets out, he's tougher and meaner... kind of like prison systems everywhere on the planet).

[bendix]

Nonsense, Heng

It's so that Inspector Somchai (who had nothing to do with the case) can gain good face, hiding the fact that while the said crime was going on he was sitting on his fat arse, picking his nose and counting how much tea money his boys had collected this week.

Those cops always look so smug and self-satisfied in the pics. Do they have no pride at all?

[farang prince]

The victim's rarely actually participate, unless they express a desire to. They are usually stand-ins.

IMO it's a good practice that helps to keep criminals from flip-flopping on their statements. You know, criminals are known to do that. It's also a nice spot check to see if the re-enactment lines up with the forensic evidence to deter one person confessing in place of another. Criminals are also known to do that (here gangs will often send the youngest and often non-adult member to confess; he gets a super light sentence and when he gets out, he's tougher and meaner... kind of like prison systems everywhere on the planet).

Heng, you are absolutely right. Reenactments are used to help investigators from three aspects: 1) It will determine if the suspect actually committed the crime (it is better than a confession). 2) It will solidify the presentation of the physical evidence when the case goes to trial. 3) It will help investigators understand how the crime was committed and why the evidence that was collected got to where it was.

As a homicide detective in the USA, we used reenactments all the time. We just didn't have the media there to take pictures of our smiling faces.

Edited August 12, 2008 by farang prince

[Briggsy]

Heng, you are absolutely right. Reenactments are used to help investigators from three aspects: 1) It will determine if the suspect actually committed the crime (it is better than a confession). 2) It will solidify the presentation of the physical evidence when the case goes to trial. 3) It will help investigators understand how the crime was committed and why the evidence that was collected got to where it was.

As a homicide detective in the USA, we used reenactments all the time. We just didn't have the media there to take pictures of our smiling faces.

Farang Prince, with the greatest of respect, I feel that crime reenactments in the US have very different goals than those in Thailand. I feel here there is no scientific value, rather it is a public confession with good photos.

[slapout]

I reckon the reenactments are to case the joint for futher refernce, or to pick up items missed the first time the BIB was at the scene.

[mgjackson69]

I reckon the reenactments are to case the joint for futher refernce, or to pick up items missed the first time the BIB was at the scene.

...while the BIB and attendant news media people are tromping around in the crime scene, destroying whatever evidence the BIB no doubt missed the first time.

[Heng]

Nonsense, Heng

It's so that Inspector Somchai (who had nothing to do with the case) can gain good face, hiding the fact that while the said crime was going on he was sitting on his fat arse, picking his nose and counting how much tea money his boys had collected this week.

Those cops always look so smug and self-satisfied in the pics. Do they have no pride at all?

Nonsense, Bendix.

Very little face gained from the on scene photo event, as those are just peon inspectors (which unlike the west, is basically a position that carries about as much respect as a traffic policeman). The "main face" opportunity comes from the photo session where they bring down the general from his cush office and have the bad guys and police folks lined up like they are about to accept an Academy Award or something.

[mmushr00m]

I always thought that it was to show the accused willing confessed (after being beaten) to their crimes and showing (after being coached) how they commited the crimes. Thus open and shut case, confession, case closed and another crime solved. Medals all around.

I mean (me being a cynic and not trusting the police) a guy robs a jewelry store with full face motorbike helmet and the police are able to catch the guy within days and the guy willingly confesses and shows the police how he planned everything then re-enacts the crime????

but the BiB closes the case of the new years bombing 'cos they ran out of ideas, after first accusing several ppl and trying to coerce them into confessing.

[geriatrickid]

As a homicide detective in the USA, we used reenactments all the time. We just didn't have the media there to take pictures of our smiling faces.

"If it doesn't fit, you must acquit"

- The late Mr. Johnnie Cochrane, renowned attorney at the trial of O. J. Simpson.

Theatrical re-enactments for the public can work both ways and have had the misfortune of backfiring for the police and prosecution.

Cochran colorfully illustrated his theme by donning a black knit cap similar to the one prosecutors claim Simpson wore as a disguise the night of the murders. "If I put this knit cap on, who am I?" he asked. "I'm still Johnnie Cochran in a knit cap ... and O.J. Simpson in a knit cap from two blocks away is still O.J. Simpson. It's no disguise. It makes no sense. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit."

Cochran later pulled on a pair of gloves similar to those the prosecution used to try to link Simpson to the murder scene. The act was a reminder to the jurors of the apparent difficulty Simpson had in getting the gloves to fit during a courtroom demonstration.

[kmart]

You might be forgiven for thinking (in quite a number of cases that I have seen) that the reconstruction is actually a real opportunity for the victim's family to get hold of the perpetrator, and beat the living sh!t out of them.

[grantbkk]

The victim's rarely actually participate, unless they express a desire to. They are usually stand-ins.

IMO it's a good practice that helps to keep criminals from flip-flopping on their statements. You know, criminals are known to do that. It's also a nice spot check to see if the re-enactment lines up with the forensic evidence to deter one person confessing in place of another. Criminals are also known to do that (here gangs will often send the youngest and often non-adult member to confess; he gets a super light sentence and when he gets out, he's tougher and meaner... kind of like prison systems everywhere on the planet).

Heng, you are absolutely right. Reenactments are used to help investigators from three aspects: 1) It will determine if the suspect actually committed the crime (it is better than a confession). 2) It will solidify the presentation of the physical evidence when the case goes to trial. 3) It will help investigators understand how the crime was committed and why the evidence that was collected got to where it was.

As a homicide detective in the USA, we used reenactments all the time. We just didn't have the media there to take pictures of our smiling faces.

[grantbkk]

The victim's rarely actually participate, unless they express a desire to. They are usually stand-ins.

IMO it's a good practice that helps to keep criminals from flip-flopping on their statements. You know, criminals are known to do that. It's also a nice spot check to see if the re-enactment lines up with the forensic evidence to deter one person confessing in place of another. Criminals are also known to do that (here gangs will often send the youngest and often non-adult member to confess; he gets a super light sentence and when he gets out, he's tougher and meaner... kind of like prison systems everywhere on the planet).

Heng, you are absolutely right. Reenactments are used to help investigators from three aspects: 1) It will determine if the suspect actually committed the crime (it is better than a confession). 2) It will solidify the presentation of the physical evidence when the case goes to trial. 3) It will help investigators understand how the crime was committed and why the evidence that was collected got to where it was.

As a homicide detective in the USA, we used reenactments all the time. We just didn't have the media there to take pictures of our smiling faces.

I was also and investigator for many years and reenactments were used periodically and were a private matter. Beginning in the 1970's reenactments declined because any lawyer who actually passed the bar exam rightly advised there clients not to do them. The argument that it bolsters a written confession doesn't really work as the reenactment could possible be just as coerced as a confession. They are reminiscent of the "perp walks" we did for the press back in the old days. All seemed spontaneous but the perp walk was always well planned by the police and press.

The reenactments here in Thailand are so different than the ones we did back in the USA there is virtually no comparison. Many do not go well probably due to poor planning and lack of imagination. Rule of law is very different here than in the west. If they have a confession that is all they need. Guilty. Sentenced to half the norm because of his/her cooperation. It appears that the police academy here, at least for recurring training for the upper ranks, teach a form of finger pointing that has changed little from the 14th century. Just watch a few of these road shows and you know in your heart that they are only being done because of past practice and to get promoted. Just watch for a minute and only look at the police officials. Very few can hold character for more than a few seconds.

Case in point: Think back to the "perp walk" by Jon Mark Karr two years ago. It would have taken two very small Thai female police officers to control this guy inside a government facility. Instead you had ministery heads, generals, colonels acting like monkeys for the world press. Hundreds of security personnel were needed to manage the circus type event. Up until that point I'd never seen high ranking Thia officials do a "low five" hand slap. Everyone was on their phones and mugging for the cameras. It was a low point for the Thai government at least for that day. All this Karr guy wanted was a little attention and he had to share it with the Thai police.

Reenactments are entrenched in Thai police culture and will be around for years to come. There is no lawful purpose and to outsiders they only perpetuate the world perception of the BIB. Humorous at times? Yes. Useful to the prosecution? No.

[2008bangkok]

a reinactment is so they know exactly what happened and a sure sign of guilt from the guilty.... i recon the BIB do a great job

[12DrinkMore]

Blimey Grant, that was a post and a half.

Enjoyed that, thank you.

[poshthai]

The victim's rarely actually participate, unless they express a desire to. They are usually stand-ins.

IMO it's a good practice that helps to keep criminals from flip-flopping on their statements. You know, criminals are known to do that. It's also a nice spot check to see if the re-enactment lines up with the forensic evidence to deter one person confessing in place of another. Criminals are also known to do that (here gangs will often send the youngest and often non-adult member to confess; he gets a super light sentence and when he gets out, he's tougher and meaner... kind of like prison systems everywhere on the planet).

I was going to say that but you were far too quick for me lol

[grantbkk]

Blimey Grant, that was a post and a half.

Enjoyed that, thank you.

Your welcome. I do get a bit wordy at times.

[tuky]

I had to stand looking serious pointing at the empy spot where the dvd-player used to be.

What are the BIBs trying to achieve?

Like want to drink more says, what would be the point in this?

I understand the BiB's desire to show off to Thai media, hence the public, their crime skills by parading a murder suspect through a re-enectment, but what would be the point in having someone point to where their DVD player used to be?

[12DrinkMore]

Found the link mentioned above, interesting reading.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/100808_Perspect...2008_pers32.php

http://www.bangkokpost.com/100808_Perspect...2008_pers17.php

Now, I wonder if Taksin and his family will have to re-enact their crimes?

Edited August 23, 2008 by 12DrinkMore

[Thai at Heart]

The victim's rarely actually participate, unless they express a desire to. They are usually stand-ins.

IMO it's a good practice that helps to keep criminals from flip-flopping on their statements. You know, criminals are known to do that. It's also a nice spot check to see if the re-enactment lines up with the forensic evidence to deter one person confessing in place of another. Criminals are also known to do that (here gangs will often send the youngest and often non-adult member to confess; he gets a super light sentence and when he gets out, he's tougher and meaner... kind of like prison systems everywhere on the planet).

Makes it rather difficult to claim after the fact that any statement made at the cop shop was under duress.

[Jingthing]

I am under the impression that alot of the confessions here are done under torture conditions, the reenactments serve as photo evidence reinforcement for the convictions. Also of course good press for the police that they are catching the bad guys. This ain't Kansas, folks.

Edited August 23, 2008 by Jingthing

[Cobalt60]

Its a realy good way to make sure the accused (guilty) has his fingerprints all over the weapon and/or crime scene

[katana]

I am under the impression that alot of the confessions here are done under torture conditions, the reenactments serve as photo evidence reinforcement for the convictions. Also of course good press for the police that they are catching the bad guys. This ain't Kansas, folks.

That was my feeling as well.

[thaiman]

I am under the impression that alot of the confessions here are done under torture conditions, the reenactments serve as photo evidence reinforcement for the convictions.

I asked a thai about this once and he said that the suspect is "forced" to reenact for the police and media or else the police will come down hard on the suspects family.

[Smithson]

They make it difficult for the accused to get a fair trial, in an effort to strengthen suspects rights, there was an attempt to ban them (I think the ban would also bring Thailand in line with a UN convention).

Some may say the suspects don't deserve such rights because of the crimes they have committed, however it's important to remember they are proven guilty in court, not in street theater.

It's a shame that so many posters see such reenactments as an important part of crime investigation. This demonstrates the need for the ban. Let's not forget that many ppl in LOS are wrongly imprisoned.

The media protested the ban, so I think that shows who really benefits from the show.

[Tod Daniels]

It is just makes for good news. It serves NO purpose other than as a poster pointed out, to strengthen a case against the defendant.

It also makes for great sound bytes on thai television, not to mention great photo opportunities in the "comic books" which pass for thai language newspapers.

There is next to NO benefit to reenactments, which is why most countries don't do them any more.