Thai Culture And Sarcasm

[lannarebirth]

Humour, yes. Sarcasm? No.

You do need to understand the context and the situation to understand sarcasm and the great majority of Thai people would not (IMHO) understand the inflections.

Oh, you mean do they understand sarcasm in the English language? No, most likely not. You hear it all the time amongst themselves though in Thai, here in Thailand. Sarcasm while being the lowest form of wit according to Oscar Wilde, is also not considered as "right speech" in keeping with the Buddhist Eight Fold Path.

Edited August 18, 2008 by lannarebirth

[Wandering]

I'm not sure if it qualifies as full-sarcasm but my favorite Thai quote is:

(I think it was used in a fun Thai kickboxing movie once-in a gambling scene)

gam khii dii gwa gam dote - a handful of poo is better than a handful of fart.

even something is better than nothing.

[lannarebirth]

I think this example qualifies:

Asia-Pacific News

Revered Thai monk flogs sarcastic fortune cookies

Jun 16, 2007, 6:11 GMT

Bangkok - One of Thailand's most revered Buddhist monks has branched out into the fortune cookie trade to mock the 'Jatukham fever' currently seizing the nation, news reports said Saturday.

Monk Payom Kalayano, abbot of the Suan Kaew Temple and a crusader against superstitious beliefs, on Friday launched a line of 'Jatukham' cookies, modelled after the Jatukham amulet that has made a fortune for other Buddhist monks and temples nationwide.

Payom Kalayano's cookies promise to make the buyer 'super rich' by following the four steps to wealth prescribed by the Lord Buddha - diligence, thriftiness, associating with moral people and leading a life of simplicity, reported the Bangkok Post newspaper.

The fortune cookies, four to a pack, sell for a modest 60 baht (1.70 dollars).

The monk said he was inspired to produce the cookies to mock the frenzied trade in Jatukham talismans, which are expected to gross 20 billion baht (571 million dollars) in sales this year.

Jatukham fever started last year when the Mahathat Woramahawiharn Buddhist temple in Nakorn Si Thammarat, 550 kilometres south of Bangkok, began to attract thousands of visitors a day to buy Jatukham Rammathep talismans, named after two princes of the Krung Srivijaya Kingdom in southern Thailand (757-1257).

The special amulets, which were first produced in 1987, have seen a surge in popularity after the death at age 110 of well-known policeman Phantharak Rajjadej, who helped create the 50 centimetre amulet. Original models of the amulet that sold for 100 baht (2.80 dollars) now fetch up to 600,000 (17,143 dollars).

Sales of the amulets, which are anointed by Buddhist monks at Mahathat Woramahawiharnj temple, have sparked such a frenzy that a 51-year-old woman was trampled to death on April 9 in the crush to get reservation coupons for the talismans.

Other Buddhist temples nationwide are now producing their own Jatukham amulets to cash in on the craze, but the Suan Kaew temple is the first to offer Jatukham fortune cookies.

Buddhism does not officially support the use and trade in lucky amulets, which are more in keeping with Brahmanical beliefs than Buddhism, but Thai temples and monks have been actively involved in the multi-million dollar industry for decades.

ฉ 2007 dpa - Deutsche Presse-Agentur

[teacup]

I don’t know if they are sarcastic enough for you or not, coz I’m not a sarcastic person so don’t pay much attentions to them.

Ok I haven’t refined my list, but these are just come up in my head….- ALL THAI RELATED and have heard of them

-I think it’s quicker to buy aspirin myself, instead of waiting to use my 30 bths health card.

-You’re not a thai teenager, if you don’t worship hellokitty or sanrio.

-Middle class does not exist, there is the rich and the poor only

-You know Thai people are in a foreign land when they have on 10 layers of clothing, hats, scarves and gloves, because winter is the only season that exists outside of Thailand

-when talking to each other one person always turns their back to the other

-why the girl would choose to wear white on a rainy day

-having an unmarried daughter is just like having a toilet in front of the house

-in any “Lookthoong lakorns”, there's always got to be singing

-is my house a public park, so anyone can come and go freely?

- you want to get your hands on one of those fainting medication for the nose!!! – it will solve everything

-we are not afraid of car accident because we have many budda amulets on the dash board

-You’re not a rich boy, unless the spoiler on your car looks like it was made by boeing, or the exhaust pipe is big enough for your head to fit in!!

- don’t stop for any pedestrians if you don’t want to get bump from the back

-you are not rich unless you go to school out of the country

etcs.......

These ones are just from me tho – exclusively

-when thais aruge in public, the bystander will leave them alone

- in thailand, we are more afraid of potholes than, speed bumps

Are these what you're talking about? I got many more, but can't think right now

[Jingthing]

Satire, irony, sarcasm ... possibly a mix of all three.

Regularly, my Thai bf would say he was hungry - often within an hour of eating an enormous meal. I used to say jokingly, 'AGAIN? HUNGRY AGAIN ??' It was our pet joke.

The other one was:

Me: What are you doing?

Him: Tired. Going sleeping.

Me: I am going to the market to go shopping.

Him: (A blur of throwing on clothes and standing beside me) ... 'I go with you.'

Me: But you said you are tired.

Him: Not tired now.

Peter

I don't find either of those examples of sarcasm.

Again, teacup, those were mostly humorous folk proverbs.

Anyway, lets go back to my example, something you COULD say in New York City.

You are made to wait 2 hours in a steaming room and you are all sweaty waiting to see someone for an appointment.

The person apologizes for the wait. You say, no problem, I got my sauna bath for the day.

You could say that in New York and it would be appreciated as a kind of wit and a critical commentary on being made to wait and sweat.

I am sorry, but I don't see how you could try the exact same thing in Thailand. It would be seen as rude and attacking the face of the authority figure you were seeing. That is, even if it was understand as an attempt at humor at all, perhaps it would be taken literally and they would think you are crazy. You would just eat it and smile and wai, if you can wai.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[Groongthep]

I think sarcasm is used quite often among Thais. It's just that it is used only among people who are fairly close or intimate with one another such as good friends and siblings. To use it with someone you have not known long could easily be misinterpreteted as being rude and we all know how important it is in Thai culture to try to avoid causing others from losing face thus causing you to lose face as well.

I have an example: Years ago a former Thai girlfriend of mine and I were joking around together as couples often do. I don't know what I was thinking at the time but, I let go with a string of Thai words which are considered very impolite, intending for the words to be taken in humor as I often speak this way in English to my farang friends and intimates in jest and good humor. I said these Thai words with a smile on my face which usually implies to a farang that one is just kidding around and it elicits a laugh. Well, needless to say what I got from my girlfriend was not a laugh but a very stern and condecending "Poot baeb nee bawy mai?" (พูดแบบนี้บ่อยไหม?) or "Do you speak like this often?". I quickly apologized and she knew that I was shamed and embarrassed over my obvious lack of knowledge when these words were appropriate and when they weren't.

Several days later we were watching television together and she saw something on the Thai News broadcast that really made her angry. I can't remember exactly what it was but after seeing it she let go with a string of English obscenities that would make a sailor blush. I was rather shocked and looked over at her and said to her (in Thai) in a sarcastic manner "Poot baeb nee bawy mai?". She immediately picked up on the irony and sarcastic nature of my comment and we both got a real good laugh out of it. So to paraphrase, I think that Thais both use and understand sarcasm but just not as freely or in the same situations as farang might.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Groongthep

[Jingthing]

That sounds credible, Groongthep. But this also suggests it is inappropriate to use sarcasm as a verbal weapon in PUBLIC LIFE in the same way as New Yorkers would everyday, as naturally as breathing.

[RakJungTorlae]

Sarcasm is overrated. Its just another front people can hide behind. Then if someone confronts them about what they said, they reply "..but i was only joking..", thats bullshit. Thumbs down.

Ah cool a another optimistic thread to get existed about and jump for joy.! Ah!!

Now that’s sarcasm

[a2396]

In English words are important. How we use them, our timing, our intonation, how we put them together.

If someone puts words together really creatively then we consider that person a genius.

In Thai, there is only one way to say any given thing. If you try to be creative and say what you want to communicate in a slightly different way this is viewed as wrong. There is ONLY one way. It has never been done differently for centuries. Any deviation is just wrong and foolish. There is Never any thinking outside the box. Anything outside the box is always bad.

Another factor is that many Thai's are first generation (or possibly second generation) city dwellers. For city people who have "seen it all", grown calloused and sarcastic, we really appreciate post-modern humor which is typically sarcasm.

For farmers or at least those who haven't "been there done that" for every thing under the sun, they are content with a more simple and relaxed humor. This involves facial gestures, melodrama, and slapstick.

Personally I wish I wasn't so calloused to the world and to simpler humor. It gets harder and harder to get a laugh out of me. Someone always has to "up the bar."

Thai's are better off without sarcasm.

If what you say is correct, that there is only one way to say something in Thai, that explains in part why there is such difficulty in translating precise meanings to English & vice-versa. It would also have a bearing on the breath & depth of one's thought process, if you know what I mean.

[Heng]

For example, you are left waiting in a steaming hot office for two hours, and the person you are seeing says, sorry to keep you waiting, and you say, Not a problem I can skip my sauna bath today.

I think I see the problem, Jingthing. They don't "get" you because you're simply not funny.

[Thai at Heart]

Sarcasm is overrated. Its just another front people can hide behind. Then if someone confronts them about what they said, they reply "..but i was only joking..", thats bullshit. Thumbs down.

Well as they say, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Irony far more intelligent, but very difficult to make it cross language barriers.

[Wandering]

In English words are important. How we use them, our timing, our intonation, how we put them together.

If someone puts words together really creatively then we consider that person a genius.

In Thai, there is only one way to say any given thing. If you try to be creative and say what you want to communicate in a slightly different way this is viewed as wrong. There is ONLY one way. It has never been done differently for centuries. Any deviation is just wrong and foolish. There is Never any thinking outside the box. Anything outside the box is always bad.

Another factor is that many Thai's are first generation (or possibly second generation) city dwellers. For city people who have "seen it all", grown calloused and sarcastic, we really appreciate post-modern humor which is typically sarcasm.

For farmers or at least those who haven't "been there done that" for every thing under the sun, they are content with a more simple and relaxed humor. This involves facial gestures, melodrama, and slapstick.

Personally I wish I wasn't so calloused to the world and to simpler humor. It gets harder and harder to get a laugh out of me. Someone always has to "up the bar."

Thai's are better off without sarcasm.

If what you say is correct, that there is only one way to say something in Thai, that explains in part why there is such difficulty in translating precise meanings to English & vice-versa. It would also have a bearing on the breath & depth of one's thought process, if you know what I mean.

For really complicated conversations, my friends and I could express ourselves in Thai. but we all find it more useful to use English to express subtle complexity.

Consider in Thai how you might translate this phrase

"Well, I am considering perhaps to visit my parents later, and yet I am not totally sure that this is the optimal thing that I should do. I am torn in that I should possibly consider an alternative. What might their reaction be? I'm still up in the air right now about how I might swing this thing. My nervous system can't handle another outburst. I think that perhaps I'll give it a miss. Hmm... to be or not to be. I'll need to mull on it a while yet."

You could easily translate it and yet the subtlety would disappear.

[taxexile]

Not a problem I can skip my sauna bath today

I think I see the problem, Jingthing. They don't "get" you because you're simply not funny.

it would be much funnier if you accompanied your sarcasm by those drum rolls and boing boings that they use on tv whenever somebody says something that isnt funny. they add levels of nuance and subtlety to sarcastic comments that just cant be achieved with deadpan alone , they also warn any listener who may be slipping into the throes of boredom that you are about to deliver a killing line.

Edited August 19, 2008 by taxexile

[Thai at Heart]

Not a problem I can skip my sauna bath today

it would be much funnier if accompanied by those drum rolls and boing boings that they use on tv whenever somebody says something that isnt funny.

And funnier still said by a man dressed as one of the three ugly sisters. Oh my aching ribs. Thai slapstick on a weekend afternoon just has me rolling around the living room.

And that is sarcasm.

[kmart]

I've seen lots of Thai parody, satire and sarcasm. Usually they'll use well worn Thai sayings and even after they tell you what it means and how it relates to the subject matter, you're still often left scratching your head. They get it though.

Irony and sarcasm is understood and used often in the Thai language. They might not appreciate or acknowledge it in English, or from a foreigner though.

[PhilHarries]

From what I've read in this thread I have to agree with kmart. The concept of sarcasm is totally different for a Thai compared with, particularly, a native English speaking farang. I also think the understanding of Thai sarcasm goes beyond plain fluency in the language, you have to actually think like a Thai then maybe you'll get it. For those non-Thais who have reached that point congratulations I envy you.

btw English sarcasm doesn't cross the channel either. I tried it out when I worked in Germany and by the time I finished explaining myself it was about as funny as a wet Wednesday in Wigan. The Germans I was talking to were about as fluent as anyone could get so it wasn't lost in translation.

[mizzi39]

I have to admit, I adore SARCASM. I am well aware as I have read it many places and also tried it out on Thais, that sarcasm and Thai culture are not a match.

Assuming you agree with this, can anyone explain why this culture is so averse to SARCASM?

Sarcasm never crosses my mind when reading your posts jingthing, but pretentious certainly does.

[Thaddeus]

Well, I am not fully convinced by any of these explanations. Sarcasm does not always have to be dependent on tone of voice or even sophisticated language skills.

Yeah, right.

[lannarebirth]

Well, I am not fully convinced by any of these explanations. Sarcasm does not always have to be dependent on tone of voice or even sophisticated language skills.

Yeah, right.

He's so insightful.

Edited August 19, 2008 by lannarebirth

[bkkjames]

I have to admit, I adore SARCASM. I am well aware as I have read it many places and also tried it out on Thais, that sarcasm and Thai culture are not a match.

Assuming you agree with this, can anyone explain why this culture is so averse to SARCASM?

At the risk of being sarcastic, why is your culture so intent on asking why Thai culture is so averse to it?

[Samuian]

If one has to live with bitter adversaries day by day, month by month and has to put up with the intangible, well guess it's sarcastic enough and with that the sense for this being funny in any way, gets lost.

On the other hand I think that the subtle "dark side" of humor isn't understood by many, often it's mistaken as an insult!

my 2 Cents, if it's worth it..

[dutchguest]

Sarcasm has also a sharp and biting side (which has to be softened by it's supposed humor).

I think this side is hard to digest for most Thais.

[Wandering]

Most Thai's are not sarcastic. Why is that such an insult to some people?

It's a compliment. Thai's are not so bitter and twisted with their lot in life that they have to take it out on anyone within earshot.

Let me ask:

If the phone rang at 3am and woke you up and someone said, "I'm sorry, did I wake you?"

Would you reply sarcastically in English "No, that's ok, I was asleep anyway."

Probably.

Would you dare to say this in Thai? (maibenrai, phom yung lap yuu)

I would have a hard time believing you if you said yes.

Of course Thai's have a great sense of humor. It's just different that's all. It is not sarcastic and that IMHO is a good thing.

[bkkjames]

Most Thai's are not sarcastic. Why is that such an insult to some people?

It's a compliment. Thai's are not so bitter and twisted with their lot in life that they have to take it out on anyone within earshot.

Let me ask:

If the phone rang at 3am and woke you up and someone said, "I'm sorry, did I wake you?"

Would you reply sarcastically in English "No, that's ok, I was asleep anyway."

Probably.

Would you dare to say this in Thai? (maibenrai, phom yung lap yuu)

I would have a hard time believing you if you said yes.

Of course Thai's have a great sense of humor. It's just different that's all. It is not sarcastic and that IMHO is a good thing.

Let's not go overboard. Yes, they like to joke around but if you have had the misfortune of seeing any of the so-called comedy shows on local channels, perhaps a little sarcasm is in order. Just because one doesn't understand sarcasm doesn't mean that it is not funny to the rest that do.

You wouldn't mind if I through a pie at your face, would you? = local humor + sarcasm

[Jimjim]

I have to admit, I adore SARCASM. I am well aware as I have read it many places and also tried it out on Thais, that sarcasm and Thai culture are not a match.

Assuming you agree with this, can anyone explain why this culture is so averse to SARCASM?

I've heard this said a lot. With certain Thais it does seem difficult to attempt sarcasm, especially if their seems to be a big difference in you understanding Thai or them understanding English.

However, I've heard it a lot and don't necessarily agree. I worked at a place where an American boss was telling us all that Thais just don't understand irony and sarcasm and we shouldn't use it. I assume because one of the Thai workers was offended by someone's sarcasm that they didn't understand. I think it's more hou shouldn't use it unless you have a casual relationship with someone and it's not necessarily accepted in more formal relationships. Some of my best Thai friends are incredibly sarcastic and have been ever since I met them. At that very workplace I didn't agree with the boss because one of my best friends on the Thai staff was just overly, incredibly sarcastic all the time when talking with me and I found it hilarious.

I don't know, I guess it can just be a language and lack of cultural awareness of westerners when some Thais don't understand sarcasm, but when I ask my Thai friends, they say they use sarcasm with all their friends when speaking Thai. Of course, it will not be the same as American sarcasm because that involves saying things in a very specific manner.

[thaihome]

.... But this also suggests it is inappropriate to use sarcasm as a verbal weapon in PUBLIC LIFE in the same way as New Yorkers would everyday, as naturally as breathing.

I strongly suggest you spend the entire night contemplating this statement and what it says about how you are dealing with your life in Thailand.

Hopefully, it might give you some pause before you start anymore these ridiculous ethnocentric threads.

TH

[kmart]

The context and situation of using sarcasm with a Thai speaker is the same as with an English speaker... Are you being derogatory; defamatory; or mocking?

If you know the person well enough to get away with this and your humour not be misunderstood, then all is well. If not, you might have just talked yourself into, and up, a certain creek.

[Samuian]

.....edit...

If the phone rang at 3am and woke you up and someone said, "I'm sorry, did I wake you?"

Would you reply sarcastically in English "No, that's ok, I was asleep anyway."

Probably.

Would you dare to say this in Thai? (maibenrai, phom yung lap yuu)

I would have a hard time believing you if you said yes.

Well, to give you "a hard time" - I would answer: "Sorry, no, no, you didn't - I usually don't know what to do at 3:00 o'clock in the morning, so I had a little nap, thanks for calling, what's up, is your house burning down or has your lover just left you?

[Jingthing]

.... But this also suggests it is inappropriate to use sarcasm as a verbal weapon in PUBLIC LIFE in the same way as New Yorkers would everyday, as naturally as breathing.

I strongly suggest you spend the entire night contemplating this statement and what it says about how you are dealing with your life in Thailand.

Hopefully, it might give you some pause before you start anymore these ridiculous ethnocentric threads.

TH

Excuse me, I am thick and have no idea what you saying. Sounds like another case of going native here so much you think it is deviant to be intellectually curious. Did you assume I would prefer to live in New York?

[haybilly]

.... But this also suggests it is inappropriate to use sarcasm as a verbal weapon in PUBLIC LIFE in the same way as New Yorkers would everyday, as naturally as breathing.

I strongly suggest you spend the entire night contemplating this statement and what it says about how you are dealing with your life in Thailand.

Hopefully, it might give you some pause before you start anymore these ridiculous ethnocentric threads.

TH

Excuse me, I am thick and have no idea what you saying. Sounds like another case of going native here so much you think it is deviant to be intellectually curious. Did you assume I would prefer to live in New York?

It certainly appears, from the majority of your posts, that you would definitely prefer to be in America as opposed to being in Thailand.