England

[dave111223]

it's a joke having one of your eleven places taken by a specialist place kicker though. you might as well pick johnny wilkinson. the modern game is about mobile, pacey footballers and beckham's a) practically pedestrian and not playing top class club football.

besides which, lampard, bentley, barry, gerrard and also rooney can all do a perfectly good job from dead-balls.

I agree. Reserving a spot on the team for a player purely for set pieces really does stink of desperation. Same goes for Heskey. It really is sad that the English game has come down to hoping to nick a goal from a set piece or playing long balls to a big forward.

It seems the English press have already scared Capello into trying to eek out (meaningless) results using whatever means necessary to avoid ridicule, instead of building a team/way of playing which will produce lasting results in the long run.

Yes sometimes you do have to try and nick a free kick goal or bundle the ball into the net, but surely that's not what you should be aiming for.

[mommysboy]

I'm a devoted Engand fan, but in all honesty what I see disturbs me when we come up against half decent teams and I think we'll struggle to qualify. For sure, we'll need a large slice of luck to get away from Zagreb with a draw.

I just simply don't understand why we are so lame up front and fragile at the back. I'm pretty sure we need a change at right back and in goal. There are question marks as to whether any of the forwards really merit a place. Problem is I don't see any alternatives at the moment.

Beckham looks worth his place to me in all honesty.

[StevieH]

Sure.

He'll definately be in the team against Andorra and Croatia in September on that performance.

he shouldn't be. if england want to progress then they've got to move beyond this tried and failed crap of playing all your big name players to the detriment of the team and tactics. capello's a great manager but he's doing nothing different to how comedy mclaren did it.

[StevieH]

I agree. Reserving a spot on the team for a player purely for set pieces really does stink of desperation. Same goes for Heskey. It really is sad that the English game has come down to hoping to nick a goal from a set piece or playing long balls to a big forward.

It seems the English press have already scared Capello into trying to eek out (meaningless) results using whatever means necessary to avoid ridicule, instead of building a team/way of playing which will produce lasting results in the long run.

Yes sometimes you do have to try and nick a free kick goal or bundle the ball into the net, but surely that's not what you should be aiming for.

thing is bentley can take as good a freekick as beckham can, plus he can run, beat men with the ball and generally be a more attacking threat in the final third. plus he is fit enough to track back too, which is also part of a midfielder's remit that beckham is no longer capable of.

re capello, am not sure it's a fear of the press thing so much as him being amazed at how limited the pool of players he has to pick from is. no top class striker, no top class goalkeeper, just the one left-footed midfielder in downing. . . .evidenced by his trying to convince carragher and scholes out of retirement.

Edited August 22, 2008 by StevieH

[chavy]

I hate to think what the reaction will be to this thread once the qualifiers start next month

[StevieH]

I hate to think what the reaction will be to this thread once the qualifiers start next month

does anyone see anything different happening though? england aren't suddenly going to start playing beautiful pass and move football, popping it about like spain or argentina do, while they are making the same old mistakes as usual. midfielders who cannot keep possession, rooney trying to do too much and knackering himself out when he should keep himself fit for chances in the final third, the crowbarring of 'big names' into a four man midfield when 4-4-2 clearly isn't england's best formation. . . .it'll be same old same old until it's changed root and branch and english players are coached to play keep-ball at tournament level.

that said they'll probably get a 1-1 draw in zagreb courtesy of a terry header from a beckham corner and everyone will carry on pretending that it was a good result and a brave performance etc.

[mommysboy]

I hate to think what the reaction will be to this thread once the qualifiers start next month

does anyone see anything different happening though? england aren't suddenly going to start playing beautiful pass and move football, popping it about like spain or argentina do, while they are making the same old mistakes as usual. midfielders who cannot keep possession, rooney trying to do too much and knackering himself out when he should keep himself fit for chances in the final third, the crowbarring of 'big names' into a four man midfield when 4-4-2 clearly isn't england's best formation. . . .it'll be same old same old until it's changed root and branch and english players are coached to play keep-ball at tournament level.

that said they'll probably get a 1-1 draw in zagreb courtesy of a terry header from a beckham corner and everyone will carry on pretending that it was a good result and a brave performance etc.

Well it would be a good result given the state of things, and an unlikely one too.

I don't think it's a skill issue, ironically England knock the ball around quite well these days. No, there's something else about being an international player- Beckham has it, Cole too, and maybe Crouch. Rooney and Gerrard perhaps not, but would Capello be brave enough to drop them and the the other players who struggle ?, and is there any alternative anyway?

The puzzler is that on paper this is an excellent team, but I fear we are in a similar situation to the 70's when we failed to qualify for numerous back to back tournaments.

[russianrobert]

..................Capello's a great manager but he's doing nothing different to how comedy mclaren did it.

Sorry, but does that mean Capello's a great comedy manager, McClaren is a comedy manager who great managers are copying, or comedy Capello and McClaren are doing nothing different?

Either way McClaren is laughing his head off.

[mommysboy]

Well the squad came out today for the crucial qualifiers coming up. 2 major surprises according to the press: Owen's exclusion and Bullard's inclusion. On the latter, I think England could do with a few 'bread and butter players' and wouldn't coomplain if more were to follow. Owen's exclusion was a shock but then I remembered the mistakes of Beckham 2002, and Rooney 2006, when both players were not match fit.

Somehow we need to grab a point in Zagreb and I think we have just a 30% chance of doing this. We'll need a strong organised defence, a packed determined midfield and a one man attack in Wayne Rooney.

[mommysboy]

I think the England team needs to be protected from the excesses of the Premier league. I seriously doubt that the so called stars can be effective for England partly because they are exhausted, or injured, or just plain seduced by big money. I for one wouldn't see any great tragedy in losing Stevie G, Frank L,Owen H, etc, etc or at least seeing their automatic selection discontinued. Don't get me wrong I like them but they just haven't produced for one reason or another.

So I'd like to see more B internationals featuring up and coming talent, players from lowlier premiership teams, and even the lower leagues. Maybe 4 or 5 so called lesser talented players in the squad and even playing in major games.

I suppose Bullard is a prime example of what I'm getting at.

[rixalex]

thing is bentley can take as good a freekick as beckham can

Come on, get serious. Beckham is far from being a perfect player, especially now as he's getting older, but one thing you can't question is his ability with free-kicks. In the deadball department, Beckham is on another planet to Bentley, who anyway, as i seem to recall, turned down pulling on the England shirt so he could go on holiday! Really commited to the cause then.

BTW - Anyone know if the England game this Saturday is being shown in Thailand?

[StevieH]

Come on, get serious. Beckham is far from being a perfect player, especially now as he's getting older, but one thing you can't question is his ability with free-kicks. In the deadball department, Beckham is on another planet to Bentley, who anyway, as i seem to recall, turned down pulling on the England shirt so he could go on holiday! Really commited to the cause then.

BTW - Anyone know if the England game this Saturday is being shown in Thailand?

i was being perfectly serious. beckham's freekick taking is one of the biggest myths in football, his success rate from them is what, one in twenty? at best? can you name three goals he's scored from freekicks for england despite taking about ten a game? i think i can do two, colombia in the '98 world cup and the one against greece at old trafford.

pretty sure it was england 'b' that bentley turned down and he was probably right to do so.

[dave111223]

thing is bentley can take as good a freekick as beckham can

Come on, get serious. Beckham is far from being a perfect player, especially now as he's getting older, but one thing you can't question is his ability with free-kicks. In the deadball department, Beckham is on another planet to Bentley, who anyway, as i seem to recall, turned down pulling on the England shirt so he could go on holiday! Really commited to the cause then.

BTW - Anyone know if the England game this Saturday is being shown in Thailand?

How long are people going to ride Bentley's ass about pulling out of the under 21s game (what was that like 2 years ago?). Come on the guys been playing all season, he doesn't have a right to decide he's had enough for awhile? Nothing wrong with that in my book, it would have been worse if he dragged himself to the game and then only put in 50%.

[rixalex]

thing is bentley can take as good a freekick as beckham can

Come on, get serious. Beckham is far from being a perfect player, especially now as he's getting older, but one thing you can't question is his ability with free-kicks. In the deadball department, Beckham is on another planet to Bentley, who anyway, as i seem to recall, turned down pulling on the England shirt so he could go on holiday! Really commited to the cause then.

BTW - Anyone know if the England game this Saturday is being shown in Thailand?

How long are people going to ride Bentley's ass about pulling out of the under 21s game (what was that like 2 years ago?). Come on the guys been playing all season, he doesn't have a right to decide he's had enough for awhile? Nothing wrong with that in my book, it would have been worse if he dragged himself to the game and then only put in 50%.

Riding on Bentley's ass? Not sure i'm comfortable with that turn of phrase, but if you're asking when will the fact that he felt too exhausted to play for England (under 21s or not, it's still playing for England), and instead went off on holiday, be forgotten, i'd say probably never. You can't tell me that a player of his age should be needing to rest up from exhaustion. Should be full of energy, even at the end of a season. If he was actually a yard or two off the pace, it would be up to the manager to not play him. The manager couldn't make that decision because he didn't make himself available.

Some of you other guys might be more sympathetic and forgiving but for me it smacks of laziness and a lack of passion that England doesn't need - we're crap enough as it is without that sort of attitude!

[StevieH]

sorry, if it was u21s rather than b then i stand corrected. either way it was a nothing match at a time when he was being touted as being called up to the full squad. if it had been a call up for the full squad he wouldn't have pulled out.

best thing england could do right now is play to their strengths which means playing the quick and in form players. ashley young, agbonlahor and bentley all deserve a crack as they can't possibly be worse or more pedestrian than the likes of beckham, lampard etc.

[rixalex]

sorry, if it was u21s rather than b then i stand corrected. either way it was a nothing match at a time when he was being touted as being called up to the full squad. if it had been a call up for the full squad he wouldn't have pulled out.

Nothing match? You call the Under 21 European Finals a nothing competion? Sorry i don't agree. It's not like we were talking friendlies and it's not like we were talking one game. He withdrew from a whole competition which England could have won. Not only that, but he did so at such a late stage that we were unable to name a replacement.

No player should be so arrogant as to think he can pick and choose which England game he wants to play in.

This is what Pearce (Under 21s coach) said at the time when Bentley announced his last minute decision:

"For me, representing your country is not about what suits you, it's about what suits your country, whether it be on the sporting field, whether it be in the armed forces. "When your country comes calling, you put them first and yourself second."

Bentley openly admitted that he was putting himself and his club team before country. This is what he said at the time "I believe it was the right decision for me, but the wrong decision for the team."

You don't turn your back on England. If you do, don't expect to be welcomed back, not by me anyway.

[StevieH]

Nothing match? You call the Under 21 European Finals a nothing competion? Sorry i don't agree. It's not like we were talking friendlies and it's not like we were talking one game. He withdrew from a whole competition which England could have won. Not only that, but he did so at such a late stage that we were unable to name a replacement.

No player should be so arrogant as to think he can pick and choose which England game he wants to play in.

This is what Pearce (Under 21s coach) said at the time when Bentley announced his last minute decision:

"For me, representing your country is not about what suits you, it's about what suits your country, whether it be on the sporting field, whether it be in the armed forces. "When your country comes calling, you put them first and yourself second."

Bentley openly admitted that he was putting himself and his club team before country. This is what he said at the time "I believe it was the right decision for me, but the wrong decision for the team."

You don't turn your back on England. If you do, don't expect to be welcomed back, not by me anyway.

i should probably point out at this juncture that i am half irish and generally couldn't give two tosses about england.

for me club football is aeons away from international football in importance and i speak and post only from a perspective of how i see england being successful rather than from a point of national pride. under 21 international football is irrelevant and should frankly be abolished. bentley's shunning of the u21s was absolutely fair enough considering that the senior squad at the time was full of players of the right age bracket for the u21s who wouldn't dream of stepping downwards.

[rixalex]

i should probably point out at this juncture that i am half irish and generally couldn't give two tosses about england.

That's fair enough. I couldn't give two or even three tosses about Ireland.

under 21 international football is irrelevant and should frankly be abolished

Interesting. Do you want to do away with junior club teams as well while you are at it?

bentley's shunning of the u21s was absolutely fair enough considering that the senior squad at the time was full of players of the right age bracket for the u21s who wouldn't dream of stepping downwards.

Other players are well established Internationals. Bentley wasn't and in fact still isn't. At the time, it certainly wasn't a step down for him, even though that's probably how he saw it and more than likely the real reason why he withdrew - nothing at all to do with fatigue.

[dave111223]

thing is bentley can take as good a freekick as beckham can

Come on, get serious. Beckham is far from being a perfect player, especially now as he's getting older, but one thing you can't question is his ability with free-kicks. In the deadball department, Beckham is on another planet to Bentley, who anyway, as i seem to recall, turned down pulling on the England shirt so he could go on holiday! Really commited to the cause then.

BTW - Anyone know if the England game this Saturday is being shown in Thailand?

How long are people going to ride Bentley's ass about pulling out of the under 21s game (what was that like 2 years ago?). Come on the guys been playing all season, he doesn't have a right to decide he's had enough for awhile? Nothing wrong with that in my book, it would have been worse if he dragged himself to the game and then only put in 50%.

Riding on Bentley's ass? Not sure i'm comfortable with that turn of phrase, but if you're asking when will the fact that he felt too exhausted to play for England (under 21s or not, it's still playing for England), and instead went off on holiday, be forgotten, i'd say probably never. You can't tell me that a player of his age should be needing to rest up from exhaustion. Should be full of energy, even at the end of a season. If he was actually a yard or two off the pace, it would be up to the manager to not play him. The manager couldn't make that decision because he didn't make himself available.

Some of you other guys might be more sympathetic and forgiving but for me it smacks of laziness and a lack of passion that England doesn't need - we're crap enough as it is without that sort of attitude!

Riding someone ass is an America phrase meaning constantly criticizing someone.

So i take it you never take a vacation? He's just supposed to play football for every waking minute, or else he's "got no passion".

I guess when the England fans boo him onto the field every time, so that he already feels like sh*t before he's even kicked the ball, that's "for the good of the country" too is it?

No, the fact is the fans and press take any little thing they can get their hands on, and use it is batter any bit of confidence out of the players and manager, which in turns leads to more mistakes and completes the vicious cycle.

So don't give me that crap about "Country should come first". No fan can boo his own team onto the pitch and say it's for the good of the country.

[mommysboy]

sorry, if it was u21s rather than b then i stand corrected. either way it was a nothing match at a time when he was being touted as being called up to the full squad. if it had been a call up for the full squad he wouldn't have pulled out.

best thing england could do right now is play to their strengths which means playing the quick and in form players. ashley young, agbonlahor and bentley all deserve a crack as they can't possibly be worse or more pedestrian than the likes of beckham, lampard etc.

There's a difference between composed and pedestrian. Maclaren based his early teams on speed and youthful vigour, it got us nowhere and rarely does.

But if you were to talk about a blend, then I'd certainly agree.

The players you mentioned are very good.

Beckham shades it over Bentley IMHO.

Beckham is there because nobody else has done sufficient to replace him, ie, he's the best we've got.

[StevieH]

i'll still argue that he's a relic of a bygone era who ceased being a top class footballer when he went west and set up the david and victoria show in hollywood.

i don't often agree with martin samuel, but his comments here on beckham are generally spot on:

http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/200...n-samuel-r.html

[rixalex]

Riding someone ass is an America phrase meaning constantly criticizing someone.

Yes thank you. I guessed that. I was speaking in jest - something some Americans seem to have trouble recognising.

So i take it you never take a vacation? He's just supposed to play football for every waking minute, or else he's "got no passion".

Urm yes, i have been known to take a vacation, but it's never coincided with my country requesting that i serve it. Were i lucky enough to get that call, i can assure you it would take priority over all else.

As for him having to play football every waking minute, if you know anything about the passion that exists in true footballing professionals, you would know that playing in competitive games is what they crave and what they can't get enough of. Being out there on the pitch is what they live for, and their careers are short enough that they have to maximise every moment and oppurtunity they are given.

I guess when the England fans boo him onto the field every time, so that he already feels like sh*t before he's even kicked the ball, that's "for the good of the country" too is it?

Bentley himself said that what he was doing by withdrawing was good for him but not good for the team, i.e. England. So if the players don't do what's good for the country, why do you expect the fans to?

Booing is the only effective way fans have of showing their feelings. If a player lets the team down, he has to expect a reaction from the stands.

For me personally i wouldn't boo my own player, but that's not to say i don't understand why others do, and neither is that to say that i have any sympathy for those players that do get booed. It's a man's game and if you're too sensitive to take a bit of heckling then go and find another job that pays tens of thousands of pounds a week!

[dave111223]

Riding someone ass is an America phrase meaning constantly criticizing someone.

Yes thank you. I guessed that. I was speaking in jest - something some Americans seem to have trouble recognising.

So i take it you never take a vacation? He's just supposed to play football for every waking minute, or else he's "got no passion".

Urm yes, i have been known to take a vacation, but it's never coincided with my country requesting that i serve it. Were i lucky enough to get that call, i can assure you it would take priority over all else.

As for him having to play football every waking minute, if you know anything about the passion that exists in true footballing professionals, you would know that playing in competitive games is what they crave and what they can't get enough of. Being out there on the pitch is what they live for, and their careers are short enough that they have to maximise every moment and oppurtunity they are given.

I guess when the England fans boo him onto the field every time, so that he already feels like sh*t before he's even kicked the ball, that's "for the good of the country" too is it?

Bentley himself said that what he was doing by withdrawing was good for him but not good for the team, i.e. England. So if the players don't do what's good for the country, why do you expect the fans to?

Booing is the only effective way fans have of showing their feelings. If a player lets the team down, he has to expect a reaction from the stands.

For me personally i wouldn't boo my own player, but that's not to say i don't understand why others do, and neither is that to say that i have any sympathy for those players that do get booed. It's a man's game and if you're too sensitive to take a bit of heckling then go and find another job that pays tens of thousands of pounds a week!

That kind of circular logical can also be used to support the other side of the argument.

You say "Players should put their country first, but they don't, so why should we [the fans]?"

Couldn't i just as easily say "Fans should put their country first, but we don't, so why should they [the players]?"

It's no good just saying "once the players start performing then we'll get on board". It's time for us, the fans, to get behind the team, even when they make mistakes.

It's different from supporting a domestic team, where if your team get relegated a few divisions you can justify having a top-tier favorite club on the side. But for international football we're stuck with England, it's not like i'm going to go out and buy a Brazil shirt, no matter how badly England do. So i just don't see the point in tearing (especially the young players) down for something that's got nothing to do with their talent.

And to preempt your next argument of "The players are the ones getting paid"; just how much do they get paid for international duty?

[rixalex]

Riding someone ass is an America phrase meaning constantly criticizing someone.

Yes thank you. I guessed that. I was speaking in jest - something some Americans seem to have trouble recognising.

So i take it you never take a vacation? He's just supposed to play football for every waking minute, or else he's "got no passion".

Urm yes, i have been known to take a vacation, but it's never coincided with my country requesting that i serve it. Were i lucky enough to get that call, i can assure you it would take priority over all else.

As for him having to play football every waking minute, if you know anything about the passion that exists in true footballing professionals, you would know that playing in competitive games is what they crave and what they can't get enough of. Being out there on the pitch is what they live for, and their careers are short enough that they have to maximise every moment and oppurtunity they are given.

I guess when the England fans boo him onto the field every time, so that he already feels like sh*t before he's even kicked the ball, that's "for the good of the country" too is it?

Bentley himself said that what he was doing by withdrawing was good for him but not good for the team, i.e. England. So if the players don't do what's good for the country, why do you expect the fans to?

Booing is the only effective way fans have of showing their feelings. If a player lets the team down, he has to expect a reaction from the stands.

For me personally i wouldn't boo my own player, but that's not to say i don't understand why others do, and neither is that to say that i have any sympathy for those players that do get booed. It's a man's game and if you're too sensitive to take a bit of heckling then go and find another job that pays tens of thousands of pounds a week!

That kind of circular logical can also be used to support the other side of the argument.

You say "Players should put their country first, but they don't, so why should we [the fans]?"

Couldn't i just as easily say "Fans should put their country first, but we don't, so why should they [the players]?"

It's no good just saying "once the players start performing then we'll get on board". It's time for us, the fans, to get behind the team, even when they make mistakes.

It's different from supporting a domestic team, where if your team get relegated a few divisions you can justify having a top-tier favorite club on the side. But for international football we're stuck with England, it's not like i'm going to go out and buy a Brazil shirt, no matter how badly England do. So i just don't see the point in tearing (especially the young players) down for something that's got nothing to do with their talent.

And to preempt your next argument of "The players are the ones getting paid"; just how much do they get paid for international duty?

It's not circular. To start with fans are 100% behind the team and are fully on board, but when the players play badly or let the country down, they get disillusioned and fed up. Seems a reasonable reaction.

As for getting paid for International duty.. i think you'll find that if they did ever win the FA would pay them.

[dave111223]

It's not circular. To start with fans are 100% behind the team and are fully on board, but when the players play badly or let the country down, they get disillusioned and fed up. Seems a reasonable reaction.

As for getting paid for International duty.. i think you'll find that if they did ever win the FA would pay them.

"100% behind the team" and "disillusioned and fed up" don't seem to line up.

My point is this; the fan needs to put the petty bickering behind them (about subjects such as Bentley pulling out of an under-21 match) and support the team.

So do they get paid for international duty? You're saying they only get paid if they win (a match, a trophy?)? How much do they get paid if they win? I've searched around on google but have found it hard to gain any knowledge on this topic.

[LeungKen]

I shall be interested to see where this discussion goes after England can only manage a 1 - 1 draw with Andorra tomorrow night ?

[Razzler1973]

The players do get paid for international duty but it's a nominal amount especially in comparison to the salaries they get. If we did ever win anything no doubt they would have (more) riches poored onto them, knighthoods, etc not to mention bonus and book and TV deals. They also still get the old fashioned cap with a tassle on it as the official 'cap' for the appearance.

I dont see a smashing of Andorra tomorrow, maybe another 3-0 at most, hopefully stay injury free and card free so that doesnt bite us later in the campaign, Ferdinand already a doubt with a back injury. I'd take a point off the Croats right now, capable of beating them but the way we are playing the lack of any kind of 'buzz' about the side doesnt fill me with confidence.

A few players owe us decent games for the Croat game, if we can maintain concentration for 90 mins then we can be difficult to score against, Barry, or whoever is in defensive midfield has a big job, they showed alot of running between the lines when they played us before and we struggled. Beckham hasnt looked great in last few games, legs have wained a little and he has a big physical job ahead of him, that right side worries me a little tbh

[mommysboy]

Andorra proved to be a dreadful match, although I guess it always was going to be. We just can't put the ball away.

Am I the only one thinking it's time Rooney to be rested, after all he doesn't score. Likewise Defoe?

I guess one needs to play on Wednesday though.

I like both players but we have to get realistic for future squads.

[redrus]

Rio Return Likely

redissueMonday, 8th September 2008

Rio Ferdinand is expected to return to the England team for the World Cup qualifier against Croatia.

The United centre-back was forced to sit out England's 2-0 win against Andorra in Barcelona at the weekend with a back injury.

However, Ferdinand has completed a full days training today (monday) and has travelled to Zagreb for the match against the Croat's on Wednesday evening.

redrus

[mrbojangles]

From skysports:-

Crouch and SWP recalled

Fabio Capello has named his England squad for the World Cup qualifiers with Kazakhstan and Belarus, recalling Peter Crouch and Shaun Wright-Phillips.

Joe Cole was not included after he limped out of Chelsea's win over Aston Villa on Sunday.

A possible replacement in the shape of Ashley Young was not called up - whilst Tottenham duo David Bentley and Jonathan Woodgate were also left out.

As Capello suggested earlier this weekend, Michael Owen has not been handed a recall.

Scott Carson is called-up due to Paul Robinson's injury, whilst Jimmy Bullard has missed out after being included last time.

Squad in full:

James (Portsmouth), Green (West Ham), Carson (West Brom); Brown (Manchester United), Johnson (Portsmouth), Terry (Chelsea), Ferdinand (Manchester United), Lescott (Everton), Upson (West Ham), A Cole (Chelsea), Bridge (Chelsea); Beckham (Los Angeles Galaxy), Walcott (Arsenal), Barry (Aston Villa), Jenas (Tottenham), Lampard (Chelsea), Gerrard (Liverpool), Downing (Middlesbrough), Wright-Phillips (Manchester City); Heskey (Wigan), Crouch (Portsmouth), Rooney (Manchester United), Defoe (Portsmouth)