Ignored By Thais At Work

[myauq]

I've been working at this company for about six months, and there are two of us farang here.

Every day our Thai colleagues go for lunch, asking us to join them. Of course, that's nice. Sometimes we eat at the office cafeteria, and other times we go outside to shops or restaurants around the place. Each time we *always* sit in the same group. I found it strange at first, but now I can see they are just more comfortable socialising with those of the same work 'status'.

Anyway, on this particular table there are about 5-8 of us at any particular time. What I find completely strange is that none of these people - my colleagues that is - have made an attempt to talk to us farangs. They just chatter away in Thai. This has been going on for like 6 months now!

I wouldn't be so offended if I knew that they couldn't speak English, but I know they can. In fact, half of them have even been university educated in the West (not that that necessarily means they have fluent English skills), but I have talked to them enough to know that they do speak very good English.

Now I speak another language besides English. When I'm speaking that language, and my English-speaking friends are around, I will do my best to translate back and forth. But I will never ignore a guest, a new person or a friend by choosing not to speak their language.

It doesn't seem to bother the other farang, but on occassion we to talk to each other to break the boredom. On occassion I have thought about going somewhere else for lunch, but I'm sure they will be offended no-end by that.

Is this rude or just another Thai cultural *cough* idiosyncracy I will have to get used to?

I am thinking of breaking the silence today, and asking them what they talk about everyday....

[Ulysses G.]

I don't understand why you are upset. They ask you to lunch every day, so that means that they care. As far as not speaking English with you goes, they can be quite shy about that. They might be worried that their English is not good enough, or that they don't want to seem like show-offs.

On the other hand, asking them what they talk about every day might break the ice. It certainly can't hurt.

[myauq]

I tried talking to them for the first few weeks, and more lately too.

eg. 1

m- you studied in Australia. where abouts?

t- sydney.

m- did you like it?

t- it was very cold.

m - it's very expensive hey?

t - [no response]

eg. 2

m - i put this [thai] karaoke song on my phone, do you know the singer?

t - that's not thai, it's another language.

m - do you the language?

t - no response

[RakJungTorlae]

I don't understand why you are upset. They ask you to lunch every day, so that means that they care. As far as not speaking English with you goes, they can be quite shy about that. They might be worried that their English is not good enough, or that they don't want to seem like show-offs.

On the other hand, asking them what they talk about every day might break the ice. It certainly can't hurt.

I don't know about that. If the timing or mood is strange just might make the ice thicker. But yeah need an nice breaker. But why care about them anyway.

Edited August 25, 2008 by RakJungTorlae

[RakJungTorlae]

I tried talking to them for the first few weeks, and more lately too.

eg. 1

m- you studied in Australia. where abouts?

t- sydney.

m- did you like it?

t- it was very cold.

m - it's very expensive hey?

t - [no response]

eg. 2

m - i put this [thai] karaoke song on my phone, do you know the singer?

t - that's not thai, it's another language.

m - do you the language?

t - no response

Smooth..

[toybits]

Perhaps, if you tried to talk to them in broken Thai, they would feel better about speaking to you in Broken English. There is a something about loosing face. If you loose face first, then the Thais would not feel to distressed about loosing face by speaking broken English.

Have you tried talking to them in Thai?

I've been working at this company for about six months, and there are two of us farang here.

Every day our Thai colleagues go for lunch, asking us to join them. Of course, that's nice. Sometimes we eat at the office cafeteria, and other times we go outside to shops or restaurants around the place. Each time we *always* sit in the same group. I found it strange at first, but now I can see they are just more comfortable socialising with those of the same work 'status'.

Anyway, on this particular table there are about 5-8 of us at any particular time. What I find completely strange is that none of these people - my colleagues that is - have made an attempt to talk to us farangs. They just chatter away in Thai. This has been going on for like 6 months now!

I wouldn't be so offended if I knew that they couldn't speak English, but I know they can. In fact, half of them have even been university educated in the West (not that that necessarily means they have fluent English skills), but I have talked to them enough to know that they do speak very good English.

Now I speak another language besides English. When I'm speaking that language, and my English-speaking friends are around, I will do my best to translate back and forth. But I will never ignore a guest, a new person or a friend by choosing not to speak their language.

It doesn't seem to bother the other farang, but on occassion we to talk to each other to break the boredom. On occassion I have thought about going somewhere else for lunch, but I'm sure they will be offended no-end by that.

Is this rude or just another Thai cultural *cough* idiosyncracy I will have to get used to?

I am thinking of breaking the silence today, and asking them what they talk about everyday....

[myauq]

Rak

true, true...

most of the time i don't care about them. i've just never experienced this kind of anti-social socialising before anywhere in the world. i'm also curious to know if anyone else has experienced this.

Ulysses...

good idea. i may finally ask today, though i don't think it will change anything. i've spoken to them all on individual an individual basis, and i know their english skills are very good. i will approach with a smile, of course

[Heng]

Maybe they don't find you interesting. I have several farang friends that I converse and hang out with, but I also have plenty of farang acquaintences (tenants for example) that I don't bother communicating with (as long as they have paid their rent on time). If I don't find a particular farang interesting (say, if you're not a hard body 20-ish female tourist who's lost her way), I don't even let on that I even know what they are talking about.

[fire2rescue99]

You might try something like: " I really appreciate you all inviting me to lunch everyday and I know it's your chance to relax for a moment away from the office. I have been trying to learn Thai, but the pace of the conversation is so fast that I can't follow along at lunch. Can I impose on the group to teach me one thai word or phrase at lunch? " It's lame but acknowledges your co-workers and also asks them for a little help.

[myauq]

both of us farang are learning thai.

they only try to speak to us in thai, in fact. i.e. gin arai ka, duum arai krup...

perhaps you misread what i said previously....

they all speak *very good* english. they use it to converse with clients every freaking day.

[taxexile]

if you are having lunch , then talk about the food with them. works every time.

[myauq]

tax

true, under normal circumstances, that would be a good ice-breaker.

but it only really works for like 1 minute. i.e. gin arai krup, chuur arai, etc. they tell me the name, and that's the end of it.

[RakJungTorlae]

Rak

true, true...

most of the time i don't care about them. i've just never experienced this kind of anti-social socialising before anywhere in the world. i'm also curious to know if anyone else has experienced this.

Ulysses...

good idea. i may finally ask today, though i don't think it will change anything. i've spoken to them all on individual an individual basis, and i know their english skills are very good. i will approach with a smile, of course

I think music is a bit dull. Try talking something that interests them. money I guess. you in the office though expect social behavior outside the office with them. I worked media in Korea for a bit and the office was very boring during work hours. Organs some drinks after work.

P.S please don’t call me Rak. --.--

[myauq]

RakJungTorlae

I am going to ask one of them out for a drink after work next week. It might give me some insight into the group pyschology, or it may just open a huge unbridgeable chasm between him (the one who has crossed-over to the farang dark-side) and his co-workers (those who have stayed on the Thai side).

Good advice BTW.

Yes, work here is very boring, which is why I started reading TVF, then contributing ...

[OlRedEyes]

It is something I've found to be widespread in Thailand, and very rude IMHO. Though i am 99.99% sure it is not intended to be rude.

I have the same problem, even after years of highlighting the issue, with my wife and her friends who speak pretty good English.

English is not my home language, so my take on it is that I speak it as common ground for communication, not that the Thai have to speak in my language, it is not arrogance on my part. When in 'my country' everybody speaks English when my wife is present, to me it is common courtesy. Otherwise she would feel excluded. But back in Thailand, they continue the habit of only speaking Thai when I am present. I now minimize these sessions.

The Thai seem not to have any concern at all whether someone feels excluded. Again, not because of rudeness, simply because it doesn't cross their mind. There is no social concern for anyone other than Thai. A result of a closed society I'd think.

If I was you, there is no way I would continue having lunch with them. It takes two to Tango.

I wish you luck in your efforts. But don't expect success.

Edited August 25, 2008 by OlRedEyes

[mmushr00m]

Heheheh I would rather my Thai co-workers leave me alone sometimes.

I think it also depends on you, maybe they feel intimidated (as mentioned above).

I think the best way is to just try speaking Thai. My Thai is absolutely horrible but I just speak it, it helps breaks the ice. Also talk football, ppl here are mad about football. I know nothing about it but add my 2 cents anyways.

But that being said, I dont get invited by the male co-workers, usually the females.

[myauq]

some very good responses. thank you.

i don't think they are intentionally being rude, and on many occassions i've thought they might be feeling intimidated by us. sad as that may be.

[zorro1]

seems to be 2 types of Thai versions of English. For example the girls who do the security at my condo will have no qualms in joining me and even interrupting me by the pool while they read English text from a book (or try to) with zero embarrassment ,on the other hand my g/f works corporate and is Uni educated English but was extremely shy about trying to converse with me in case she lost face.

[PeaceBlondie]

When I taught English in the remote province, I was occasionally asked to join the Thai teachers of English for lunch. They usually chatted in Thai and let the farang talk among ourselves. Most of their conversation in English was "this food is spicy" and "this food is aroi." When we tried to talk about work, we got no responses. Often, at work or at lunch, our questions went unanswered. It taught me that even educated Thais who are fairly good at English are not comfortable having discussions in English. They do not seem to converse about subjects in English that a farang would discuss: current events, politics, Mayan temples, Texas weather, sports, Greek festivals, German food....you name it. When I have met foreigners at home, abroad, or in Thailand, I am curious to know what it is like to live there, but I find no such curiosity among most Thais. The few who are curious are Thais who are not accepted by other Thais for one reason or another.

I do not get it. Since I speak no Thai, I have no idea what they discuss, but I doubt it is deep, advanced, nuanced, or abstruse. Of course, I have no idea. I suggest that you not let it bother you, do not let it affect your relationships with your coworkers, and just get used to that gap in communication while working on your Thai language.

[Ulysses G.]

The Thai seem not to have any concern at all whether someone feels excluded. Again, not because of rudeness, simply because it doesn't cross their mind. There is no social concern for anyone other than Thai. A result of a closed society I'd think.

I have been here 20 years and I find the exact opposite.

Thais almost always try to include us and make us feel welcome even when it is a pain in the butt for them. I have had this happen over and over again in different circumstances and it had nothing to do with money.

That one of the reasons that I love to live here. I almost never feel lonely.

I have to wonder what you are doing to get such a different reaction than most foreigners that I know.

[myauq]

seems to be 2 types of Thai versions of English. For example the girls who do the security at my condo will have no qualms in joining me and even interrupting me by the pool while they read English text from a book (or try to) with zero embarrassment ,on the other hand my g/f works corporate and is Uni educated English but was extremely shy about trying to converse with me in case she lost face.

zorro

that's what irks me sometimes, all the nice girls from other places who try chatting with while i'm getting my food. they have no qualms about 'practicing' their english with me, which - btw - is much worse than my co-workers'.

but if i decided to sit with them instead i think that would a face-loosing situation for my co-workers, would it not?

[GuestHouse]

Two observations.

Thai social Networks are very close and tightly knit. There will undoubtedly be a certain amount of a feeling of 'duty' to take care of you the new comer.

So you've been invited along to lunch, but there are a number of social barriers to you fully joining the group.

My advice would be to stop accepting the invite and make your own lunch arrangements - do this gradually so as not to cause offense and then build relationships the same as you do anywhere else in the world - one at at time.

[zorro1]

seems to be 2 types of Thai versions of English. For example the girls who do the security at my condo will have no qualms in joining me and even interrupting me by the pool while they read English text from a book (or try to) with zero embarrassment ,on the other hand my g/f works corporate and is Uni educated English but was extremely shy about trying to converse with me in case she lost face.

zorro

that's what irks me sometimes, all the nice girls from other places who try chatting with while i'm getting my food. they have no qualms about 'practicing' their english with me, which - btw - is much worse than my co-workers'.

but if i decided to sit with them instead i think that would a face-loosing situation for my co-workers, would it not?

I dont envy your situation

[girlx]

I have spent years hanging out in groups of Thais and have found the same thing. They feel the obligation to be polite (so they invite you along), but that does not extend to keeping a conversation running with you. This is because they feel shy speaking English, but also because Thai society is very segregated anyway. Boys hang with boys, girls hang with girls, hi-so hangs with hi-so, Thais hang with Thais.... if I were you I would either make a big effort to speak Thai with them, or just ignore them and talk to your farang friend.

[Mosha]

The Thais might think much as we did in the pub or out to lunch in the UK. We never talked about work, we had enough of that while at work. Even in the canteen, work was never mentioned.

[OlRedEyes]

The Thai seem not to have any concern at all whether someone feels excluded. Again, not because of rudeness, simply because it doesn't cross their mind. There is no social concern for anyone other than Thai. A result of a closed society I'd think.

I have been here 20 years and I find the exact opposite.

Thais almost always try to include us and make us feel welcome even when it is a pain in the butt for them. I have had this happen over and over again in different circumstances and it had nothing to do with money.

That one of the reasons that I love to live here. I almost never feel lonely.

I have to wonder what you are doing to get such a different reaction than most foreigners that I know.

The problem I have is not their eagerness to be friendly etc. I get invited all the time. But once there, no amount of trying to kick-start a conversation in English, with people who speak good English, works. Even my wife naturally falls into speaking Thai. My Thai is not good enough to follow a fast conversation.

The issue is about English, not about friendliness.

AFAIK most foreigners, contrary to your statement, have the same problem. And it is not confined to a geographical area either.

And I am talking about general inane chat, not indepth discussion of politics, religion, the cosmos either.

I don't buy the shyness thing either in most cases. Most of them are quite proud of their ability to speak English.

Edited August 25, 2008 by OlRedEyes

[myauq]

Two observations.

My advice would be to stop accepting the invite and make your own lunch arrangements - do this gradually so as not to cause offense and then build relationships the same as you do anywhere else in the world - one at at time.

I've thought about doing that, and I might give it a try. I'm not that fussed about the whole thing, because I am going to leave this place soon for greener pastures. It's good to learn these things, so if I have to start afresh somewhere else I will know how to handle/ avoid it.

I think - like you say GuestHouse - the key is to change things 'gradually'.

[steveromagnino]

I wouldn't be so offended if I knew that they couldn't speak English, but I know they can. In fact, half of them have even been university educated in the West (not that that necessarily means they have fluent English skills), but I have talked to them enough to know that they do speak very good English.

Lunch is THEIR time, they are already being nice by inviting you. There is no element of rudeness, they probably believe that if you wanted to speak with them, then you should do so in Thai (which obviously I agree with) and if you want to speak english, well you have your friend there.

For most Thai people, Thai language is ideal for having fun, gossiping, enjoying life, especially if the workplace is mostly english. The subject matter, there is an immediate hesitance the moment the language switches; the same as while I am totally fluent in english language when I race yachts, the moment I sail with all Thais, there is a hesitation as I have to think about what I am saying. And I am guessing my Thai is about on par with their english.

As for shyness....where i work every single executive was educated abroad and speaks english as effectively a first language. 2 of us are 1/2 Thais. But at lunch....outside of work......we all speak Thai. It is simply more enjoyable to do so about many subjects. My old company, similar education for the management, same thing. The people proud of speaking english are a minority and usually either somehow crazy about farang culture or learning english - the true english speakers usually enjoy speaking Thai more at certain times. Lunch and after dinner for drinks are two of them. Especially when in their own country. You see the exact same thing in Hong Kong. And to a lessor degree in Singapore.

While you may desire to speak of politics, religion and other matters as we do in english, over lunch these are considered to be for the most part not ideal subjects to speak of and any reference is quite careful in not arousing the ire of others; that time is over drinks later in the day ;-) Most Thais I know (and me also) are always scared to bring up politics with the majority of westerners here unless we know them well, as there is a fine chance that we will get American Democrat/Republican style O'Reilly commentary with a very very clear single viewpoint, and blinders on to consider anything else - problematic over lunch when half the table believes the exact oppposite. So....best not to discuss. At least not over lunch.

I will state that i have some non Thai friends who school me on politics, and even guys like YoungHusband (who for the most holds very different opinions to me) have a well thought out series of ideas that I enjoy discussing and understanding (even if I don't agree) - again though, we would never have that conversation in Thai over lunch. Especially with work mates.

Whereas, maybe, that is what people do where you are from; it certainly would not be something that New Zealanders would discuss over lunch for the same reasons that you don't want to have pointless arguments with workmates then have to go back to work with them.

The list of Peaceblondie is fascinating, because, yes, that is exactly what people talked about in the states, and when I was working there as a non American I loved hearing it all (in fact that is where i learned a whole lot about various things) but for the most part, I had to listen as I didn't really know US politics beyond Nixon (that's what I studied as a kid FDR - LBJ); don't understand or follow American sport; don't know much about the bizarre legal system etc etc.

Mostly over lunch, Thai people choose not to talk about work much, and a lot of thought is usually put into talking about things that the entire table might find curious/interesting, hence work is usually not the issue. There are of course thoughtless people about, plenty of them, but this is kind of the line that people talk about. Among financiers, sharemarket and the economy or interest rates is popular. Cars, phones, consumerables always popular. TV shows. Soccer. That sort of thing - i.e. you arne't missing out on much as this is universal the world over.

My guess is a group of more than 4, the guys or sub groups will have one to one conversations, and the rest will talk about something else. Lunch is not some sort of wonderful European breaking bread and discussing matters of importance for the world type of thing (at least as it seems in the movies), more like, we need to eat, let's stuff our faces, talk a bit and then head back to the Ponderosa.

The idea that they should ruin their own lunch by having to converse in english just to satisfy you seems to me to be asking way too much; I certainly never expected that the housekeepers should stop speaking spanish on the few times i sat with them in the States for lunch, learn some Thai or start having lunch somewhere else.

How they are possibly rude for being kind enough to invite you for lunch in the first place.....I don't get it.

Edited August 25, 2008 by steveromagnino

[OlRedEyes]

^^ Which confirms my point that it is an inward looking closed society and the OP is wasting his time.

Edited August 25, 2008 by OlRedEyes

[myauq]

i don't think it is based on geography.

i have lived in a number of other sea countries, and can speak other sea national languages fluently. i don't think language is the issue here, despite what some posters are suggesting. speaking a native language is important to understanding the culture, being able to express nuances that don't exist in english/ other cultures, etc.

i can speak some thai, and have lost some interest because of this kind of attitude. being fluent in other languages has helped me learn thai, but i find in other countries people are far more interested in chatting with me, knowing where i am from and what i think of their country/ language/ culture/ food/ etc. etc.

i think these stated observations have some truth in them:

- they feel obliged to ask us

- they *may not* feel confident with their english

- they *could be* feeling awkward at the prospect of chatting with farang

- thai people generally function in closed social groups; and therefore

- don't feel comfortable talking to us

it's their loss really.