My Initial Post: Need Head's Up On Living/working In Thailand!

[newbegin4]

Hello,

Situation:

- 39 year-old U.S. Citizen.

- Considering living in Thailand (Udonthani area) with Thai fiance/spouse.

- Duration: 2 to 5 years.

My initial areas of concern:

1) What visa option is best

2) What employment-related issues arise with following facts:

a. I wish to continue my employment with U.S. based employer, via simple telephone/email.

b. No Thai office required at the moment (simply work from home)

3) Tax implications (i.e. I don't understand the U.S./Thai tax treaty)

4) Other issues I should be aware of??? (please suggest)

Thank you all,

[Soutpeel]

1) You will be stuck with tourist visas "O's" and visa waivers (ie visa runs)..unless you get married then can get an O based on marriage

2a - Technically illegal as you need a work permit, and almost impossible to get a W/P under your circumstances, but "telecommuting" does go on, will you get caught ? highly unlikely if you keep a low profile, but someone could "shop" you out...

3. See 2a..therefore cant pay tax in Thailand, but you still need to declare your US taxes

To do this above board as an example you will need to form a Thai company 51/49 majority thai, with THB 2.0 million capitalisation, employ 4 Thai people (pay taxes and social seurity etc) then you have the vehicle to apply for a work permit for yourself.

If you where married to a Thai national other criteria will apply to setting up the company. ie lessor amounts of capitalisation etc

[scifi]

Unfortunately it seems like your set-up would be illegal, unless the US company set you up as branch office. I'm not certain of the details of that.

However, you could legally do work for the US company if you set up a Thai company and provide services to them. This would require a Non-Immigrant B visa (not sure if you can do this on a Non-O) and you would get your work permit when the Thai company is set up. Working from home is not really an option; you are required to have physical office space, which has legal requirements beyond the spec of residential properties.

[newbegin4]

Ok, financially the minimum capitalization requirements (as I understand them to be 2 million baht) are simply not feasible.

I do wish to be legal. Suppose my Thai fiancee and I marry first. Does this offer up any other options(probably none I gather)?

My fiance is very smart business-wise, could she employee a foreigner (me) herself (to sponsor my work-permit?) and not have to meet the capitialization requirements? She in turn (her company) would resell my services directly to the U.S. corporation? Can Thai citizens conduct business directly with overseas entities as (what we in the U.S. call) a sole-proprietorship or, if not, through a corporation set up under her ownership?

I don't need to own anything, or be a partner, business-wise in Thailand.

Thank you!

[Soutpeel]

Ok, financially the minimum capitalization requirements (as I understand them to be 2 million baht) are simply not feasible.

I do wish to be legal. Suppose my Thai fiancee and I marry first. Does this offer up any other options(probably none I gather)?

My fiance is very smart business-wise, could she employee a foreigner (me) herself (to sponsor my work-permit?) and not have to meet the capitialization requirements? She in turn (her company) would resell my services directly to the U.S. corporation? Can Thai citizens conduct business directly with overseas entities as (what we in the U.S. call) a sole-proprietorship or, if not, through a corporation set up under her ownership?

I don't need to own anything, or be a partner, business-wise in Thailand.

Thank you!

Getting married does not change anything on the work permit front, your fiancee cant sponser a work permit on her own, to get the work permit you need the THB 2.0 million registered capital and 4 Thai employees (real ones these days, as the immigration apprantly does check, as in the past companies where set up using ghost employees)...the bottom line is a company has to sponser your W/P not an individual, the THB 2.0 million does not have to be in cash by the way..

If married believe you can get away with THB1 mil in paid up captial and two Thai employees, for a W/P

Also believe sole-proprietorship is possible for your fiancee (wife), but dont know about the WP aspects of this, but yes your fiancee can deal direct with a US company..

You would be better talking things over with a Thai legal company to look at your options

[scifi]

It would be worth the OP doing some research on the WP per number of Thai employees situation. My understanding is that if you set up a Thai company, the company is eligible for one work permit. I am not sure on what grounds, but I am fairly sure it is not related to Thai employees, so effectively you can work solo. '4 Thai employees' are certainly a requirement if you apply for extension of stay based on business, which wouldn't be necessary for the OP to run the business. Also, if you wanted to employ another foreigner, then you would need 4 Thai staff for the company to be eligible for the additional work permit.

I have been working this way legally for 2 years, all accounting and legal paperwork managed by Sunbelt.

I agree: get professional legal advice from Thailand.

Edited September 10, 2008 by scifi

[PattayaParent]

And it will depend on what work you do, it might be one of the reserved for Thai only occupations.

[Soutpeel]

It would be worth the OP doing some research on the WP per number of Thai employees situation. My understanding is that if you set up a Thai company, the company is eligible for one work permit. I am not sure on what grounds, but I am fairly sure it is not related to Thai employees, so effectively you can work solo. '4 Thai employees' are certainly a requirement if you apply for extension of stay based on business, which wouldn't be necessary for the OP to run the business. Also, if you wanted to employ another foreigner, then you would need 4 Thai staff for the company to be eligible for the additional work permit.

I have been working this way legally for 2 years, all accounting and legal paperwork managed by Sunbelt.

I agree: get professional legal advice from Thailand.

Understand and agree with what your are saying, but would have thought the ultimate goal for the OP is extension of stay, therefore 4 Thai employee rule would apply, maybe jumped a little ahead with my comments...

[scifi]

No problem, Soutpeel, I agree that extension would be the logical route. I think the OP has a few options though - if he sets up a Thai company. Seems like they are not planning to stay indefinitely, so maybe renewing a non-B in the US every year wouldn't be too much hassle. Or, if extension is preferred and they are married, the OP could extend on basis of supporting Thai wife (he can do that while holding a non-B ).

[newbegin4]

Thanks everybody! It would be hard to put up much (if any) capital beyond purchasing a personal computer in Thailand. The U.S. corporation (my employer) is my own so I have no hope of it ever 'financing' the Thai capital requirements (nor employing 4 - let alone any - Thai employees). My business is simply an internet-based home business (and is not one of the Thai reserved occupations). All my customer interactions can be handled via phone/email.

Today, I'm going to try Googling to find a copy of the Thai work permit application and supporting instructions and see if there is anyway I can obtain one of those 'virtually impossible' exceptions. I really want to at least try.

My fiancée has family obligations in Thailand and it would be difficult for her to come live with me in the U.S. for the immediate future. Hence, my willingness to uproot and go live with her for a few years. I really want to find a way to be together.

[newbegin4]

Ok, I've done some research on work permits. Seems I can't get one period unless there is a sponsoring company.

So that leaves 2 choices, a foreign-owned company (that I set up) or a thai-owned company (for my spouse to set up).

It appears that a foreign-owned company cannot set up short of a 1 million baht capital investment (someone correct me if there is a way around this).

I can't find anything about the requirements for a Thai spouse setting up her own company. Can someone give me a basic list of requirements that my spouse would have to meet in order to legally establish a company that can sponsor a work permit?

Thank you very much!

[Soutpeel]

Ok, I've done some research on work permits. Seems I can't get one period unless there is a sponsoring company.

So that leaves 2 choices, a foreign-owned company (that I set up) or a thai-owned company (for my spouse to set up).

It appears that a foreign-owned company cannot set up short of a 1 million baht capital investment (someone correct me if there is a way around this).

I can't find anything about the requirements for a Thai spouse setting up her own company. Can someone give me a basic list of requirements that my spouse would have to meet in order to legally establish a company that can sponsor a work permit?

Thank you very much!

I dont think you would be able to set up a foreign-owned company - Believe this would fall under the BOI rules, and you wouldnt qualify with what you want to do..

You are only really left with a Thai owned company, you can set this up with the spouse on a 49/51% split (Thai shareholders hold the 51%)

Stand to be corrected, but to get a work permit, the company needs to be a Thai owned limited company, dont believe you can get away with it on a SP type company. You should be able to research the specific requirements on TV, as have seen this list somewhere, but cant remember where ??

Just remember the THB 2.0mil or 1THB mil capitalisation does not mean you need the cash in the bank, it can be equipment, intellectual property, experience, skills etc.

[newbegin4]

Ok, thanks! My questions have been answered. I appreciate the help!

[Maestro]

I dont think you would be able to set up a foreign-owned company ...

The OP is a US citizen and I understand as such he can own a company in Thailand 100% under the Amity Treaty.

--

Maestro

[Soutpeel]

I dont think you would be able to set up a foreign-owned company ...

The OP is a US citizen and I understand as such he can own a company in Thailand 100% under the Amity Treaty.

--

Maestro

Good point...but can you set up an Amity Treaty company for "telecommuting" ?

Edited September 12, 2008 by Soutpeel

[Jimjim]

For a visa, if get married, you can easily get a one year multiple entry Non-0 visa based on marriage in the U.S. I used the honorary consulate in Portland, OR and they were more than helpful. You could mail your passport to them if you don't live near there.

As for work permit, you can work on a Non-O but for what you're describing it's virtually impossible and you are much the wiser to not even try getting a work permit. You'll be met with laughs or befuddled stares or requests to go to another official and as you won't ever become legal, it's best not to invite scrutiny. It's technically illegal but they don't have a way for you to get legal even though you may be doing completely legit work. There's a whole other big thread on this with arguments back and forth but the end result is nobody has every provided any evidence at all of anyone getting in trouble for doing what you're doing without getting a work permit. Just don't tell anybody you meet about it. Say you live off your investments or something. It's none of their business.

[scifi]

The argument about 'teleworking' tends to revolve around tax. Do you pay tax in Thailand or in the country where your work is 'put to use'? The last thing I want to do is revive that argument here, so I wont.

Instead, my first piece of advice to the OP is to get professional advice from a Thai legal/business services firm - as has been mentioned a few times on this thread. There are legal ways to do what he wants to do (pretty much: set up a Thai company - don't want to revive the 4 Thai employees argument - get professional advice on that too).

My second piece of advice to the OP is to remove the words 'teleworker' and 'home-based' from his vocabulary for all eternity. Mention 'teleworker' here and people start grabbing pitchforks and howl at the moon.

[Jingthing]

I didn't realize US consulates will give one year O visas based on marriage. Is that really true? I think you would still need to do 3 month runs for those, correct? Anyway, if that is true, and you only wish to stay for 2 to 5 years, I agree with the poster who said you do not want to go there to explain this to attempt to get a work permit. As long as the work is with non-Thai clients and the money flows related to the business are outside Thailand, they really don't even want to hear about it, and if you tell them about it, you are asking for trouble. Just my opinion. The risk with this is of course possible failure to get continuous O visas from the US, plus the extra travel, but I still think probably cheaper and easier in the long run.

[scifi]

but I still think probably cheaper and easier in the long run

and illegal.

[Jingthing]

but I still think probably cheaper and easier in the long run

and illegal.

Like prostitution. I don't believe it is practical to do what the OP proposes to do perfectly legally. So he either does it under the radar and hurts nobody or he doesn't do it. I tell you I think it is quite clear that immigration DOES NOT CARE if people work this way as long as there is no interface with Thais and Thai banking. If the OP made a local enemy, he could be reported and then yes he would have a problem, but the chances are very remote they will normally be at all interested in such non-Thailand business activity. They don't have the laws in place to provide a legal structure for it. That isn't entirely their fault, this kind of remote working is still relatively new.

Here is another example that I know for a fact immigration would NOT be interested in. Say a retiree on a NO WORK visa buys and sells his offshore based investments. That is work. That is business activity. That is done in Thailand but has nothing to do with Thailand. Immigration does not care and you would be certifiable to even ask them about it. It really isn't that great a leap from that to what the OP proposes to do.

Again, just my opinion, but I think if this poster did approach this problem and attempt to make this totally legal under current Thai laws, first he probably wouldn't succeed, and second, the Thai officials he approached would think he is a total naive fool for even trying.

This poster has a US based business. He doesn't want or need a Thai business. Yes, he could completely dismantle his US business and start it in Thailand; that might be a concern for his US clients, depending on the nature of the business. I doubt that would usually be practical from a purely business point of view, especially with the 2 to 5 year time frame.

Edited September 12, 2008 by Jingthing

[scifi]

Sorry Jingthing, I think most of what you say there is wrong. Agree to disagree, eh.

[Soutpeel]

but I still think probably cheaper and easier in the long run

and illegal.

Like prostitution. I don't believe it is practical to do what the OP proposes to do perfectly legally. So he either does it under the radar and hurts nobody or he doesn't do it. I tell you I think it is quite clear that immigration DOES NOT CARE if people work this way as long as there is no interface with Thais and Thai banking. If the OP made a local enemy, he could be reported and then yes he would have a problem, but the chances are very remote they will normally be at all interested in such non-Thailand business activity. They don't have the laws in place to provide a legal structure for it. That isn't entirely their fault, this kind of remote working is still relatively new.

Here is another example that I know for a fact immigration would NOT be interested in. Say a retiree on a NO WORK visa buys and sells his offshore based investments. That is work. That is business activity. That is done in Thailand but has nothing to do with Thailand. Immigration does not care and you would be certifiable to even ask them about it. It really isn't that great a leap from that to what the OP proposes to do.

Again, just my opinion, but I think if this poster did approach this problem and attempt to make this totally legal under current Thai laws, first he probably wouldn't succeed, and second, the Thai officials he approached would think he is a total naive fool for even trying.

This poster has a US based business. He doesn't want or need a Thai business. Yes, he could completely dismantle his US business and start it in Thailand; that might be a concern for his US clients, depending on the nature of the business. I doubt that would usually be practical from a purely business point of view, especially with the 2 to 5 year time frame.

Got to agree with Scifi... so where do you draw the line ? Under current Thai laws, by definition, if the OP does what he wants to do and not do it above board, registered company, work permit etc, he is operating illegally, it just not a case of being involved with Thai banks and interface with Thais.

If somebody tried to do something similar in UK, UK etc...the immigration, and tax man would become be very intrested in what they where up to...

[Jimjim]

I didn't realize US consulates will give one year O visas based on marriage. Is that really true?

Yes. One year multiple entry which means you need to leave the country every 90 days.

http://www.thai-la.net/visa/visa-non-im-o.htm

$175 for multiple entry

To visit as a spouse of a Thai nationality, Fiance and Fiancee are not included in this category.

A copy of a valid and effective marriage certificate.

A copy of Thai passport /or Thai I.D. of the spouse.

A letter from the spouse verifying that the applicant and the spouse are still married and the purpose to

visit Thailand.

[Gumballl]

I'm going to side with Jingthing's argument. How is anybody in Thailand to know that a tourist (or a non-imm O) is working, via the internet, in Thailand?

Pecking away on a keyboard, for an enterprise/company that is located overseas is of really no concern of Thailand. I doubt any payments for service will be sent to Thailand. They will probably be sent to a banking institution in the US. The OP will undoubtedly spend money in Thailand, but as a tourist.

Thus without payment being received in Thailand, how can anybody say that the OP is "working". This little rebuttal I've presented could also be construed as "work". But am I getting paid for it? Well, I won't say...

I think what needs to be clarified for the OP, in case he does not know, are the restrictions/differences between a Tourist visa and a Non-Imm-O visa, with regards to long-term stay in Thailand. The minimum 40K Baht income for him and spouse will not be doable because he is "not" working, thus shouldn't have a reportable income. Now if his spouse works, and earns 40+K per month, then great for him.

Edited September 13, 2008 by Gumballl

[Jingthing]

Let me clarify again my OPINION:

-- it is technically illegal but have fun getting legal on this one (first read Franz KAFKA)

-- I misstated that immigration "does not care", what I meant is they won't know and there is no way they will know unless some nasty person makes a report, and otherwise there will be no trigger to make them "care" (this is very different from a foreigner performing work in a public bar which is highly visible to the public and also dealing directly in the Thai economy)

-- like Gumballl said, it is asking for trouble if there is Thailand interface, payments sent here to Thai banks, unusually heavy shipping activity, hiring locals for odd jobs, my opinion is based on doing none of those things, rather the assumption is only phone and internet contact with the base of the business outside Thailand

-- taxation is another question, not my expertise, but I would think treating the business as a US based business in the state of its home address would be the easiest

Edited September 13, 2008 by Jingthing

[Soutpeel]

I'm going to side with Jingthing's argument. How is anybody in Thailand to know that a tourist (or a non-imm O) is working, via the internet, in Thailand?

Pecking away on a keyboard, for an enterprise/company that is located overseas is of really no concern of Thailand. I doubt any payments for service will be sent to Thailand. They will probably be sent to a banking institution in the US. The OP will undoubtedly spend money in Thailand, but as a tourist.

Thus without payment being received in Thailand, how can anybody say that the OP is "working". This little rebuttal I've presented could also be construed as "work". But am I getting paid for it? Well, I won't say...

I think what needs to be clarified for the OP, in case he does not know, are the restrictions/differences between a Tourist visa and a Non-Imm-O visa, with regards to long-term stay in Thailand. The minimum 40K Baht income for him and spouse will not be doable because he is "not" working, thus shouldn't have a reportable income. Now if his spouse works, and earns 40+K per month, then great for him.

I peck away at a keyboard as part of my job in Thailand, I need a work permit and pay taxes....The OP is receiving payment for services rendered and is being "paid" in Thailand, even though it may be coming via an indirect route...but at the end of the day the OP is providing a service from Thailand and receiving monies in Thailand for his endeavours - This is working which ever way its dressed up or spun...

If the tables where turned and as a UK or US citizen you where sitting in these countries and somebody was doing the same thing...bl**dy sure people would be screaming illegal alien, working illegally, not paying taxes etc...the immigration should do be doing something about it...

These seems to be a lot of rationalisation going on to try an justify that telecommuting is "legal" and its ok to do....or its ok because to do because there is a perception that the Thai authorities are not bothered or dont care...

My opinion......If somebody comes to Thailand as a volunteer, receives no payment and need a Work permit, then da*n sure somebody doing "telecommuting" based in Thailand needs a W/P..

[scifi]

Soutpeel is right. The reason I know you are wrong Jingthing is because I have done it myself; I am speaking from experience, not Kafka, and it was easy to set up. If you don't know the answer to the question, don't be lazy and just tell the OP to work illegally, you are not doing anyone any favours with that. I don't know where prostitution fits in, but here's another one: dealing drugs - are you also comfortable with that on your streets? And the reason why the authorities do care about this is simple: tax.

[Jingthing]

OK, if the OP wants to try and go legal, good for him. I just said it was my opinion only.

Anyway regarding this:

If the tables where turned and as a UK or US citizen you where sitting in these countries and somebody was doing the same thing...bl**dy sure people would be screaming illegal alien, working illegally, not paying taxes etc...the immigration should do be doing something about it...

No, I think you are totally wrong for the US IF the person was there LEGALLY on some kind of visa. For example, if a Thai was in the US on a no work US student visa and they had a business established IN THAILAND, and all the activity was done by phone and net IN THAILAND from their DORM ROOM in the US, and there was no economic interface with the US economy. I truly believe this would be exactly the same. NOBODY WOULD CARE! Not taking work from Americans and all of the economic activity is occurring in another country. Again, my opinion.

Edited September 13, 2008 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

BTW, I am curious how far you would take your advice. Do you think all the people on NO WORK retirement visas who are trading their non-Thai investment accounts are working illegally and should all be required to start Thai companies and obtain work permits (which they can never get doing that on a retirement visa)?

[wineaux]

I agree with jingthing.

Regarding the visa issue I think the best option would be a Non Imm B (no need to get married just for visa issues).

This type of visa is valid for 12 months (visa runs every 90 days) but effective for 15 months if you do a visa run just b4 it expires. Then simply re-apply for a New Non Imm B from your home country.