Meeting With Chiang Mai Immigration Chief, 10 Sep 2008

[Mapguy]

No one has yet to provide any sort of report or impression of the meeting yesterday. I will start it off.

One caveat! I do not invite any comments about how it is done in other immgration offices in Thailand or blah-blah-blah personal experiences. I wasn't there; nor was any other reader sharing your experience! This is about Chiang Mai.

I do invite any additional clarifying remarks by others who were at the meeting.

Major Points:

1. The immigration chief and his very capable assistant (both ably assisted by a knowledgeable translator) gave very clear answers to questions. A very few questions that they could not answer were quite esoteric. In such cases, the chief requested a letter. I believe that he would indeed answer it well.

Furthermore, I would say that the colonel understands you better than you do!

2. Fundamentally, all of the answers the colonel provided were consistent with those found on any intelligent search of the appropriate web-based resources. If that might be a puzzle, then I do suggest writing a clear letter (in Thai or in English) to his office. Furthermore, even in the smallest details, his answers were consistent with my personal experience at the office.

3. An implicit question that was answered generally: Do Immigration Offices have discretionary powers? Yes, they do, within the law. That means, in one expression, that if they want to ask you for more legitimate proof of anything, they can regardless of whatever your embassy has guaranteed.

4. Matters of Disability: Once, in responding to access to the office for disabled persons, the colonel responded that (basically) we will do what we can to help on a "case by case" basis. Regarding more serious problems having to do with bedridden and otherwise incapacitated or incapable expatriates needing to extend a retirement visa (Not a strange matter to consider!), two things are needed: (1) attending physician's statement and (2) a power of attorney providing for an agent to act in that person's behalf. [Note: Under the Thai Civil and Commercial Code (to which I have made several mentions before on this site) as well as a very recently published written guide available from a very reputable publisher on Thai law for foreigners, in the case of a marriage in which the spouse is a citizen of Thailand, there is a legal responsibility of that spouse to provide for his/her husband/wife] If you do not feel comfortable with that, you will have to consult with a reputable lawyer in Thailand.

5. Work Permits: The simple answer is "Don't play games." This includes volunteer work. However, there apparently is an easy way to get permission from the Department of Labor. for LEGITIMATE requests involving competent recognized organizations. I leave it to someone else to explain that.

Also, don't play games with minority interest in businesses. The business registration law does not consider the regulations of the Department of Labor. If you are not simply a shareholder, no problem. If you are a director, even with a minority interest under the law, you must have a work permit.

6. Legitimate Emergencies: These are considered on a case-by-case basis.

7. Generally, if you have or are doing something extraordinary, then talk to them cogently and in a civil manner in advance.

8. The colonel had three major caveats:

(I hope I have remembered them correctly; they are common sense so I did not write them down!)

Firstly: Do your 90-day reporting on time!

Secondly: Don't cross borders without ensuring that you will be able to return on the correct visa! Casual cross-border shopping can be a problem.

Thirdly: There was something else obvious, I think, but I am too tired to remember it, and I can't always read my own notes. Sorry!

9. Changes in Visa Types: Most still have to be done in Bangkok. The colonel expects a change in the law so that more of such matters can be attended to in Chiang Mai.

But the simple answer is to write or call and ask an intelligent question!

Minor Points:

1. There is a seven-day window before or after the date for 90-day registration. Anyway, you can do it by post. And someone else can do it for you with the appropriate paperwork. When you are traveling, you can count 90 days from re-entry. No hassle. If you are late, fines are discretionary. Now, normally it is 2000 bhat.

2. The law is that any change of residence has to be reported by the owner of the residence within 24 hours.

3. Expired Passport: Your visa will be renewed, but with a note that the "passport is invalid." This gives you a chance to update your passport, then return to immigration for clearance.

To conclude, I have run out of gas this evening. In closing, always, the devil may be in the details. It is up to you to call immigration, visit them, or write them and clearly explain your situation. The Chiang Mai office has always been very accommodating and knowledgeable in my case. Most of those at the meeting apparently agreed. The most enthusiastic applause was an endorsement of one speaker's off-the-cuff thanks to them for their service.

Otherwise, forgive me, I am not going to proofread this. I am quite tired. I am sorry if you missed the meeting. No one made a monetary profit except, I hope, the hotel. Goodness knows they need all the help they can get these days! The meeting started awkwardly since some invited notables were quite late in arriving. The organizers clearly have little experience in running large meetings smoothly. But these little shortcomings shouldn't in any way be interpreted as taking away from the value of the meeting. My compliments to the organizer, Khun Boong.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Mapguy

[Greenside]

[K2K]

Thnak you very much for the useful summary.

[Bill97]

Thanks for the photos too. A lot more folks than I would have guessed. About how many members are there in the expats club and in the friends group?

[sylviex]

Would "follow the rules and use common sense" be a fair synopsis ?

Thanks for your troubles, Mapguy. I think you and a few of the other more informative posters should start up your own English language newsletter.

[sylviex]

5. Work Permits: The simple answer is "Don't play games." This includes volunteer work. However, there apparently is an easy way to get permission from the Department of Labor. for LEGITIMATE requests involving competent recognized organizations. I leave it to someone else to explain that.

Any ... erm ... volunteers ?

[Sathip2008]

Thank you Mapguy for this summary, much appreciated

[harrry]

Thank you Mapguy for this summary, much appreciated

Seconded....and thank you for including the question on disability.

[Mapguy]

I am adding (bold type) to my earlier report after a good night's sleep. Again, I apologize for the sketchiness of my notes, and I do hope that others will fill some gaps, should they wish to. The best solution to individual questions and problems, of course, is to call, write or visit immigration first having done some research yourself.

No one has yet to provide any sort of report or impression of the meeting yesterday. I will start it off.

One caveat! I do not invite any comments about how it is done in other immgration offices in Thailand or blah-blah-blah personal experiences. I wasn't there; nor was any other reader sharing your experience! This is about Chiang Mai.

I do invite any additional clarifying remarks by others who were at the meeting.

Major Points:

1. The immigration chief and his very capable assistant (both ably assisted by a knowledgeable translator) gave very clear answers to questions. A very few questions that they could not answer were quite esoteric. In such cases, the chief requested a letter. I believe that he would indeed answer it well.

Furthermore, I would say that the colonel understands you better than you do!

2. Fundamentally, all of the answers the colonel provided were consistent with those found on any intelligent search of the appropriate web-based resources. If that might be a puzzle, then I do suggest writing a clear letter (in Thai or in English) to his office. Furthermore, even in the smallest details, his answers were consistent with my personal experience at the office.

3. An implicit question that was answered generally: Do Immigration Offices have discretionary powers? Yes, they do, within the law. That means, in one expression, that if they want to ask you for more legitimate proof of anything, they can regardless of whatever your embassy has guaranteed.

4. Matters of Disability: Once, in responding to access to the office for disabled persons, the colonel responded that (basically) we will do what we can to help on a "case by case" basis. Regarding more serious problems having to do with bedridden and otherwise incapacitated or incapable expatriates needing to extend a retirement visa (Not a strange matter to consider!), two things are needed: (1) attending physician's statement and (2) a power of attorney providing for an agent to act in that person's behalf. [Note: Under the Thai Civil and Commercial Code (to which I have made several mentions before on this site) as well as a very recently published written guide available from a very reputable publisher on Thai law for foreigners, in the case of a marriage in which the spouse is a citizen of Thailand, there is a legal responsibility of that spouse to provide for his/her husband/wife]. If you do not feel comfortable with that, you will have to consult with a reputable lawyer in Thailand.

5. Work Permits: The simple answer is "Don't play games." This includes volunteer work. However, there apparently is an easy way to get permission from the Department of Labor for LEGITIMATE requests involving competent recognized organizations. I leave it to someone else to explain that.

Basically, the colonel said that the volunteer question was a sensitive issue and that it is difficult for the immigration department to deal with it; hence, the law is the law.

Also, don't play games with minority interest in businesses. The business registration law does not consider the regulations of the Department of Labor. If you are not simply a shareholder, no problem. If you are a director, even with a minority interest under the law, you must have a work permit.

6. Legitimate Emergencies: These are considered on a case-by-case basis.

7. Generally, if you have or are doing something extraordinary, then talk to them cogently and in a civil manner in advance.

8. The colonel had three major caveats:

(I hope I have remembered them correctly; they are common sense so I did not write them down!)

Firstly: Do your 90-day reporting on time! Soon it will be possible do this on line, according to the colonel! Stay tuned!

Secondly: Don't cross borders without ensuring that you will be able to return on the correct visa! Casual cross-border shopping can be a problem.

When you cross a border, do it with a re-entry permit to return to Thailand. On shopping expeditions to Burma at Mae Sae, if you cross without an re-entry permit, you return as a "walk-in tourist."

Thirdly: There was something else obvious, I think, but I am too tired to remember it, and I can't always read my own notes. Sorry!

On reflection, I think the third point might have been the one above on casual border crossings and re-entry permits.

9. Changes in Visa Types: Most still have to be done in Bangkok. The colonel expects a change in the law so that more of such matters can be attended to in Chiang Mai.

10. One-Year Extensions to Non-Immigrant Visas: There are other types of one-year non immigrant visas than retirement visas, which I have focused on and which the meeting seemed basically to discuss, that have similar if not the same extension requirements, but here's are points that came up in earlier TV discussion:

a) As is clear in the law, immigration requires a letter from your home country or proof income in Thai accounts adding up to 65k per month or 800k on deposit. These two types of support can be combined, but the essential question immigration is trying to answer is do you have enough to support yourself.

Investment accounts or "funds accounts" do not count. The accounts must not be "risky" in nature. Examples of acceptable accounts are passbook savings accounts and CDs.

c) If you use a bank letter for an extension, you must show that the funds have been in the account for 90 days.

d) A letter certifying bank accounts from a bank is valid for seven days. An embassy letter is valid for 90 days. Yes, new letters are required for every annual extension.

11. Spousal Visas: When one of the spouses is Thai, the two spouses together must give proof of 400k baht. An income letter from an embassy/consulate once valid is apparently not now valid except for those "grandfathered." There was only one question, as I recall, regarding the requirements for those not married to a Thai but another foreigner. It had to do with sponsorship of their foreign children. There was an interesting answer provided which is a bit too complex to relay here satisfactorily. I strongly suggest that you contact immigration on such family matters.

12. The law provides for other justifiable reasons for having a visa, such as supporting a child and needing to stay in-country to follow through some court procedure (two examples given at the meeting). Without looking, I believe these are listed in the October 2006 police order. I would strongly suggest that you contact immigration regarding your specific circumstances.

13. "Work Arounds:" It was apparent that the immigration department will do its best under the law to try to accommodate someone who might have an unusual problem, such as trying to change the date annually for extension application (usually for convenience sake in traveling). That date can not be changed, but there might be another legal way to solve the problem. Check with immigration.

Minor Points:

1. There is a seven-day window before or after the date for 90-day registration. Anyway, you can do it by post. [And soon, apparently, on line!] And someone else can do it for you with the appropriate paperwork. When you are traveling, you can count 90 days from re-entry. No hassle. If you are late, fines are discretionary. Now, normally, it is 2000 bhat.

2. Thai law is that any change of your principal Thai residence has to be reported on a timely basis. This does not apparently apply to traveling around the country if you happen to live here and travel about a bit but return "home." By law, you need your passport for travel, of course.

3. Expired Passport: Your visa will be renewed, but with a note that the "passport is invalid." This gives you a chance to update your passport, then return to immigration for clearance.

To conclude, I have run out of gas this evening. In closing, always, the devil may be in the details. It is up to you to call immigration, visit them, or write them and clearly explain your situation. The Chiang Mai office has always been very accommodating and knowledgeable in my case. Most of those at the meeting apparently agreed. The most enthusiastic applause was an endorsement of one speaker's off-the-cuff thanks to them for their service.

Otherwise, forgive me, I am not going to proofread this. I am quite tired. I am sorry if you missed the meeting. No one made a monetary profit except, I hope, the hotel. Goodness knows they need all the help they can get these days! The meeting started awkwardly since some invited notables were quite late in arriving. The organizers clearly have little experience in running large meetings smoothly. But these little shortcomings shouldn't in any way be interpreted as taking away from the value of the meeting. My compliments to the organizer, Khun Boong.

Hope the additional information is useful.

Edited September 12, 2008 by Mapguy

[Rasseru]

I doff my hat and bow in appreciation to you, Mapguy.

[Martian]

Mapguy,

Are you sure this information is correct?

11. Spousal Visas: When one of the spouses is Thai, the two spouses together must give proof of 400k baht.

I thought this option was removed in 2006 and only a "monthly income flow" of 40,000 Baht option now existed.

Or, am I reading the statement's meaning incorrectly?

Regards,

Martian

Edit punctuation

Edited September 12, 2008 by Martian

[sylviex]

5. Work Permits: The simple answer is "Don't play games." This includes volunteer work. However, there apparently is an easy way to get permission from the Department of Labor for LEGITIMATE requests involving competent recognized organizations. I leave it to someone else to explain that.

Basically, the colonel said that the volunteer question was a sensitive issue and that it is difficult for the immigration department to deal with it; hence, the law is the law.

Thanks, Mapguy.

[Mapguy]

Mapguy,

Are you sure this information is correct?

11. Spousal Visas: When one of the spouses is Thai, the two spouses together must give proof of 400k baht.

I thought this option was removed in 2006 and only a "monthly income flow" of 40,000 Baht option now existed.

Or, am I reading the statement's meaning incorrectly?

Regards,

Martian

Edit punctuation

Thanks for pointing this out. You are correct, that should read 40k monthly, not 400k. If anyone has further questions on this situation, they should read Case 7.17, Chapter 2 "Granting Permission to Stay" of Police Order No. 606/2549. For further clarification, of course, get in touch with the immigration office.

By the way, one of the speakers (forget which one) noted that the same applies for an alien woman married to a Thai man, but that that was very rare in their experience.

I am attaching a copy of an English translation:

Visa_Regulations__Police_Order__10.2006.pdf

Edited September 12, 2008 by Mapguy

[gobs]

Thanks for the report Mapguy.

Very useful...