Samak Bows Out

[hammered]

Stereotypes

Interesting, Maybe some of these grandpa PAD types should give it a read instead of the anti-government propaganda they read every day. Wishful thinking I guess.

“nganadeeleg”:

you said:

“It all sounds promising, but unless they drop the blinkered loyalty to Thaksin they are no better than the PAD.”

It would have helped them if the Democrat Party, or any other party, would have developed and communicated policies to them. I can’t blame them for choosing the only party that actually has developed those policies, communicated them, and also went through with those promises.

There is a lot less blind loyalty to Thaksin than you imagine, people there are aware that Thaksin has more than a few faults.

But what can they do when faced with the only other choice a party that now openly supports the PAD, instead of thinking of some sort of policies of their own?

PAD is still sitting in Government House, the leaders can continue to evade their arrest warrants, Sondhi L. can come and go as he pleases, has meetings and safe houses all over Bangkok, because he gets such a high level protection that police can’t do a thing about it.

And you wonder why the more violent parts of the reds start dominating the show? The legal system now is so blatantly partial, the police is not allowed to do their work - so what do you expect?

This was from Nick.

But I would say more. It almsot seems like the judiciary in Thailand is now bent on implementing PADs aims- why I don't know- but certainly senior past judges have expressed disdain for elections and feel they know better than the government and especially people from Issan.

Im quite sure the PAD were out cheering on the judges as they decided cases against Sondhi and Prasong. Odd when the facts dont support the analysis. The judges are quite pointedly finding against everone at the moment. Now is not atime to be politician of any persuausion and be up in court. It just also happens when the stock of politicinians is lower than ever too.

Now the motivation as to why the courts are finding in the way they are is probably open to discusion but that is a completley different analysis. It just isnt true that they only find the way the PAD want.

[Plus]

Or how about several rulings against PAD's blocking the roads at Makkasan, not to mention accepting treason charges and issuing arrest warrants against PAD leaders.

[animatic]

Stereotypes

Interesting, Maybe some of these grandpa PAD types should give it a read instead of the anti-government propaganda they read every day. Wishful thinking I guess.

“nganadeeleg”:

you said:

“It all sounds promising, but unless they drop the blinkered loyalty to Thaksin they are no better than the PAD.”

It would have helped them if the Democrat Party, or any other party, would have developed and communicated policies to them. I can’t blame them for choosing the only party that actually has developed those policies, communicated them, and also went through with those promises.

There is a lot less blind loyalty to Thaksin than you imagine, people there are aware that Thaksin has more than a few faults.

But what can they do when faced with the only other choice a party that now openly supports the PAD, instead of thinking of some sort of policies of their own?

PAD is still sitting in Government House, the leaders can continue to evade their arrest warrants, Sondhi L. can come and go as he pleases, has meetings and safe houses all over Bangkok, because he gets such a high level protection that police can’t do a thing about it.

And you wonder why the more violent parts of the reds start dominating the show? The legal system now is so blatantly partial, the police is not allowed to do their work - so what do you expect?

This was from Nick.

But I would say more. It almsot seems like the judiciary in Thailand is now bent on implementing PADs aims- why I don't know- but certainly senior past judges have expressed disdain for elections and feel they know better than the government and especially people from Issan.

Or it is just coincidence that the judicial system and PAD share similar if not exact goals.

Could it be the judicial system IS actually working with the existing rules, for a legal end,

and PAD is actually proposing things within that system too?

Could it be PAD is more in tune with large elements ofd society

very much against ongoing corruption? Looks that way to me.

One should never assume the fringe comments of a group are it's true platfom,

but that the never changing central ideas are the bedrock.

The courts have said what they need to, vs PAD,

it is the political will or CONTROL to enforce them that is lacking.

The government is in such disarray, no one knows who to back on getting tougher.

But ALL are worried now about international view points on their actions.

Especially about going in with riot gear and clearing ourt a bunch of protesting grannies.

And it WILL look like that and it will go down badly.

Certainly Thailand should pass off it's turn to at ASEAN to the next in line,

with the proviso that they get it back at the next turn, if they are back in gear again.

Certainly Hun Sen has a drop of malice, but he also speaks the truth.

He KNOWS he has no one to negociate with AT ALL,

let alone someone of his political abilities as a foil.

[sriracha john]

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/20...thailands-reds/

So we're quoting another forum's comments and inserting them onto Thaivisa now? :D

Why not just post your comments over there?

Edited September 16, 2008 by sriracha john

[clausewitz]

Or it is just coincidence that the judicial system and PAD share similar if not exact goals. Could it be the judicial system IS actually working with the existing rules, for a legal end, and PAD is actually proposing things within that system too? Could it be PAD is more in tune with large elements ofd society .

This quote helps explain why voting and democracy is seen as such an anethama and especially why the judiciary feel they can decide cases on the basis of political expediency.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/27/pol...cs_30032854.php

Drafters (OF THE CONSTITUITION THAT THE MILITARY PUSHED THROUGH) defended the move to appoint senators. In a public hearing, former judge Wicha Mahakhun claimed that,

We all know elections are evil, but [why do] many people still want to see history repeated? People, especially academics, who want to see the constitution lead to genuine democracy, are naive. Electing senators is a problem, as seen in the past, so why don't people want judges to help select senators?

The former judge further claimed that the King placed his trust in the judiciary's proposed role in appointing the Senate, noting that "On April 9 [2006], His Majesty told the judges to perform their duties firmly and without caring what others might say. His Majesty said if the courts did not support good people, society could not survive. His Majesty said it was most imperative [for judges] to ensure justice. Even HM the King places trust in the judges; would you condemn them? The country collapsed because politicians played politics without principle, but these people [who want elected senators] have never learned from the [country's] crisis.

Direct CNS appointees

BTW The constitution drafting commitee included anti-Thaksin activists such as Prasong Soonsiri

and even new supreme court judges were chosen from known PAD supporters or anti-thaksin, pro military cadidates.

[sriracha john]

If this Nick Nostitz character wishes to post on the Thaivisa forum he should join as a member and post it himself. To take quotes of his from another forum and posting them here is highly questionable as it doesn't allow for any interaction or clarification.

Similar to nganadeeleg, who is a member of Thaivisa, he should join Thaivisa if he wishes to contribute.

To attribute posts to nganadeeleg that he didn't make on Thaivisa and post them here as if did is disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst.

[sriracha john]

*double post deleted*

Edited September 16, 2008 by sriracha john

[clausewitz]

If this Nick Nostitz character wishes to post on the Thaivisa forum he should join as a member and post it himself. To take quotes of his from another forum and posting them here is highly questionable as it doesn't allow for any interaction or clarification. Similar to nganadeeleg, who is a member of Thaivisa, he should join Thaivisa if he wishes to contribute. To attribute posts to nganadeeleg that he didn't make on Thaivisa and post them here as if did is disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst.

I quote a link from CMsally (STEROTYPES) in my original post and then quote something from the page that the link goes to and you are complaining? Bizarre.

[sriracha john]

I'll try to remember that when the Other Forum Clippings Forum is set up on Thaivisa.

Edited September 16, 2008 by sriracha john

[clausewitz]

I will try to make this simple for you. New Mandala (the site that cmsally linked to) is not a forum, and Nick Nostitz who wrote the article, and whom I quoted, is a journalist who contributes to it.

If you really want to be a moderator your borderline posts are not going to help.

[sriracha john]

I will try to make this simple for you. New Mandala (the site that cmsally linked to) is not a forum, and Nick Nostitz who wrote the article, and whom I quoted, is a journalist who contributes to it.

If you really want to be a moderator your borderline posts are not going to help.

Post blog entry comments are the same as a forum. It's a discourse of opinions regarding the entry from registered users.

As for the supposed journalist moniker, Nick himself says it best...

"I am not such a good journalist."

- Nick Nostitz, in a talk on Stickman

I am not a mod, that's why I'm questioning this new aspect of quoting comments from other forums.

It's never been done before in four and half years that I've seen.

Perhaps you could invite Nick to join us.

Edited September 16, 2008 by sriracha john

[Samuian]

Concerning a Constitution - it is way beyond my imagination how a constitution can be rewritten in its entirety again, and again and then be amended at will?

No matter in which country, if the Constitution isn't fit to suit the citizens needs, t shouldn't be released in the first place, and never be allowed to be amended by acting politicians!

Interesting times are up and coming - second arrest warrant issued for Doc T. in the Exim-Myanmar loan case.

House dissolution is looming per tomorrow, if PPP splits up and factions move to other parties and going for new elections, they will face the regulations barriers, that they aren't long enough party members to be nominated for elections....

Are the Democrats supporting Somchai's Nomination, to quicken the downfall of this government? (The hidden dagger under the tunic?

[permanent_disorder]

I will try to make this simple for you. New Mandala (the site that cmsally linked to) is not a forum, and Nick Nostitz who wrote the article, and whom I quoted, is a journalist who contributes to it.

If you really want to be a moderator your borderline posts are not going to help.

does anyone remember that square face head that holds up X and O signs in a press conference?

[hammered]

Or it is just coincidence that the judicial system and PAD share similar if not exact goals. Could it be the judicial system IS actually working with the existing rules, for a legal end, and PAD is actually proposing things within that system too? Could it be PAD is more in tune with large elements ofd society .

This quote helps explain why voting and democracy is seen as such an anethama and especially why the judiciary feel they can decide cases on the basis of political expediency.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/27/pol...cs_30032854.php

Drafters (OF THE CONSTITUITION THAT THE MILITARY PUSHED THROUGH) defended the move to appoint senators. In a public hearing, former judge Wicha Mahakhun claimed that,

We all know elections are evil, but [why do] many people still want to see history repeated? People, especially academics, who want to see the constitution lead to genuine democracy, are naive. Electing senators is a problem, as seen in the past, so why don't people want judges to help select senators?

The former judge further claimed that the King placed his trust in the judiciary's proposed role in appointing the Senate, noting that "On April 9 [2006], His Majesty told the judges to perform their duties firmly and without caring what others might say. His Majesty said if the courts did not support good people, society could not survive. His Majesty said it was most imperative [for judges] to ensure justice. Even HM the King places trust in the judges; would you condemn them? The country collapsed because politicians played politics without principle, but these people [who want elected senators] have never learned from the [country's] crisis.

Direct CNS appointees

BTW The constitution drafting commitee included anti-Thaksin activists such as Prasong Soonsiri

and even new supreme court judges were chosen from known PAD supporters or anti-thaksin, pro military cadidates.

Oh no all judges and ex-judges are anti-PPP and the PPP are just about to appoint an ex-judge as their leader and new PM. Quick someone pass this classified information on before they appoint their own nemesis as their leader

[younghusband]

I will try to make this simple for you. New Mandala (the site that cmsally linked to) is not a forum, and Nick Nostitz who wrote the article, and whom I quoted, is a journalist who contributes to it.

If you really want to be a moderator your borderline posts are not going to help.

What some people can't bear is intelligent and well informed analysis which runs counter to the simple minded dogmatism which once swamped this forum.

[sriracha john]

More accurately, people are simply questioning some never-before-seen aspects of the forum. If quoting posts from other forums is going to become the norm on this forum, it's important everyone knows that.

[sriracha john]

anyway, back to some News Clipping News from non-bloggers...

House on brink of dissolution

PPP factions split over picking Somchai as PM

The prospect of an early House dissolution loomed yesterday as 12 hours of talks failed to settle a split between the two major factions in the PPP over who to nominate as PM. The dispute between the group loyal to Newin Chidchob and other key party members erupted afresh as about 30 of the 73 northeastern MPs loyal to Newin walked out of the party meeting in the afternoon. They were upset over the decision to nominate Somchai Wongsawat to succeed Samak when the House meets tomorrow. Deputy Leader Karn Thiankaew said the party executives had agreed unanimously during the morning session to nominate Somchai. The two other prospective contenders for the post, Sompong Amornwiwat and Surapong Suebwonglee, told the meeting they did not want to contest the position. But certain groups of PPP MPs continued to reject Somchai's nomination for the premiership, Karn said. The failure to reach a consensus forced the party to schedule another meeting today, with the future of the House at stake. "If differences can't be settled, and opinions are still split into two sides, it's very likely the party could announce a House dissolution by noon tomorrow [today]," Karn said.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/160908_News/16Sep2008_news01.php

[hammered]

I dont know the rules for linking to other forums but would think that saying something like "BP or NM has an interesting piece on...." would be an easy way. Do TV have official links to other forums? Do TV want us linking to toeher forums?

If anyone is interested this is my take on the poitcal line of the main 2

While NM is usually very pro-PPP/TRT/Thaksin and even a tad tabloid in its approach on the main page, it does have comments from across the spectrum although they have recently changed their policy on this to restrict comments. Whether this leads to politcal bias in comments remains to be seen.

BP is often accused of Thaksin bias and there may be some truth in this but BP is not as slanted as NM. Comments again come from across the politcal spectrum.

[h90]

I will try to make this simple for you. New Mandala (the site that cmsally linked to) is not a forum, and Nick Nostitz who wrote the article, and whom I quoted, is a journalist who contributes to it.

If you really want to be a moderator your borderline posts are not going to help.

What some people can't bear is intelligent and well informed analysis which runs counter to the simple minded dogmatism which once swamped this forum.

You discover yourself......Don't stop......

[sriracha john]

Mr. No Thought doesn't actually inspire a whole of hope...

Somchai's track record suggests he's just not right for the job

Former justice permanent secretary Somchai Wongsawat probably never imagined that one day he would become PM. However, his highly likely nomination for the post by the PPP may not be good news for the country. Unless he is opposed by the coalition parties or a dissident PPP faction, lawmakers in the House will elect Somchai as PM tomorrow to succeed Samak.

With all the political turmoil in the country at the moment, a decisive leader who can make critical decisions and talk to people on all sides is vital. However Somchai, who has been caretaker PM since Samak was disqualified by the Constitution Court and who is also a brother-in-law of former PM Thaksin, seems unfit for the job. As the justice permanent secretary during the Thaksin administration, Somchai never showed any initiatives or tried to improve the legal system, despite his enormous power and many years in the job. He served in that post for four years and then went on to become the permanent secretary for labour for another year before being transferred back to his old post at the Justice Ministry. He wasn't that good at administration, either. His track record simply did not compare with former justice permanent secretary Jarun Pukdithanakul. Despite being posted to the Justice Ministry for only a year, Mr Jarun showed a lot of initiative and his achievements included amendments to a number of laws, including the two- and three-digit lottery and giving prisoners who thought they were innocent in criminal cases the right to petition the courts. As Deputy PM and Education Minister, the positions he now holds, Somchai's performance has been consistently disappointing. To date he has not proposed any new ideas at the Education Ministry. What he has done is dust off old

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/160908_News/16Sep2008_news09.php

[younghusband]

More accurately, people are simply questioning some never-before-seen aspects of the forum. If quoting posts from other forums is going to become the norm on this forum, it's important everyone knows that.

New Mandala as I think has already been made clear is not a forum, more of a blog for educated people.

[sriracha john]

I don't know the rules for linking to other forums but would think that saying something like "BP or NM has an interesting piece on...." would be an easy way. Do TV have official links to other forums? Does TV want us linking to other forums?

Good question. If the past is any indicator, it's been my impression that it was no. If it's yes, then the confirmation of that would be beneficial to all for future reference.

but, where do we draw the line? I'm not disputing the validity of NM entirely. There are some good analytical articles there, but for other posters it's no more than highly biased and opinionated blogging... and the after-posts showing others comments is no more different than what one could just as easily post bearpit.com quoted posts. Are only websites utilizing Envision software to be construed as forums? If people wish to post comments or address other forum's posts, it seems the place to do it is on these other websites.

[Plus]

It's one thing to post a link to a blog entry, quite another to post anonimous comments from that blog.

If it is worth it, the poster can surely include or quote it, but we are not going to reply to them here at length, and because it stays on that blog unchallenged it doesn't mean it's true or widely accepted.

I suspect New Mandala regulars find safety of that site quite comforting, I don't think many of their fantasies would stand on ThaiVisa for too long. Over there they've got a little community to scratch each other's backs, there's no any meaningful peer review, everybody just agrees with each other.

At least in my experience with that site.

[younghusband]

It's one thing to post a link to a blog entry, quite another to post anonimous comments from that blog.

If it is worth it, the poster can surely include or quote it, but we are not going to reply to them here at length, and because it stays on that blog unchallenged it doesn't mean it's true or widely accepted.

I suspect New Mandala regulars find safety of that site quite comforting, I don't think many of their fantasies would stand on ThaiVisa for too long. Over there they've got a little community to scratch each other's backs, there's no any meaningful peer review, everybody just agrees with each other.

At least in my experience with that site.

Thanks Plus you made my day with this one.I never quite associated the stick I get on this forum as "meaningful peer review"! But you do have a point.There is a liveliness about this forum that's attractive and quite often comments from the opposite camp (you,Hammered,Old Man River and others) do make me sit up and question some of my assumptions.Does anything that is ever said here make you think twice about your position I wonder?

[h90]

from the nation:

Cabinet approves Bt1 billion to transform Don Muang airport as Government House

The Cabinet Tuesday approved Bt1 billion for renovating Don Muang airport and transforming into temporary Government House.

PM's Office permanent secretary Julayuth Hiranyawasit said the budget would come from the central fund.

The money would be mostly spent for equipping the office building at the airport with office equipment so that Government House officials could work there.

He said the government has yet to decide when to transfer Government House officials to work at the airport.

The Nation

end quote

1.000 Million?

100 Million for the office and 900 Million corruption.....

[sriracha john]

More accurately, people are simply questioning some never-before-seen aspects of the forum. If quoting posts from other forums is going to become the norm on this forum, it's important everyone knows that.

New Mandala as I think has already been made clear is not a forum, more of a blog

on that I agree... it is a blog, it is not a news organization.

The comments posted in reply to a blog are no different than a forum as explained previously.

There are some good writings on NM, but this Nick Nostitz poster is not of this caliber, as was previously discussed.

When we get to the point where we are quoting his posts in the replies to his blog on this forum, its carrying it to a different and new level. I have no problem with people linking an interesting item here, even to blogs... but to follow-up it up with posts from the forum follow-up comments is inviting others to take it onboard and begin quoting bearpit as was previously exampled.

Edited September 16, 2008 by sriracha john

[Plus]

Does anything that is ever said here make you think twice about your position I wonder?

Yes it does

[ubonjoe]

2,250 police, soldiers to be deployed to keep order at Parliament Wednesday

A total of 1,050 policemen and 1,200 soldiers will be deployed to keep order at Parliament on Wednesday when the House convenes a meeting to elect a new prime minister.

Pol Gen Viroj Phaholvej, deputy police commissioner-general in charge of security affairs, said the police and soldiers will be stationed both inside and outside parliament's compound.

The officials outside Parliament will be armed only with shields but those inside will be fully armed with riot-control weapons.

The Nation

[Meerkat]

[off-topic]

What is important is that anything quoted from any other online source is correctly linked if at all possible (or a good reason given why not in the case of subscription-only pieces for instance). That might help put a stop to some of the woeful misrepresentation of sources we've seen, even to the extent of truncating quotes mid-sentence, thus changing the context.

A simple copy and paste of the web address and you're done; it's a lot simpler than the reader having to go and find the source unaided.

I would hope that everyone from every side in every debate we have here would agree to that courtesy. It is a prerequisite for citation on some other forums and IMO a good rule.

[/off-topic]

[sriracha john]

It's all settled.... wait for the vote tho'...

PPP Deputy Secretary-General assures that internal party conflicts all resolved

Deputy Secretary-General of the People Power Party Sukumpong Ngon-kum affirmed that internal conflicts of the Party concerning its selection for a candidate in the Prime Minister election have ended.

Sukupong stated that this afternoon MPs of the party would hold a meeting to cast their votes for current Interim PM Somchai Wongsawat to be the PPP selection for the Parliament vote to take place tomorrow.

The PPP Deputy Secretary-General assured that the conflicts did not stem from competition for positions, but from misunderstandings amongst party members.

He also said that concerns have been voiced over the possibility the Parliament meeting tomorrow may be cancelled in a fashion similar to the initially scheduled vote last Friday. He said that the situation required clarification to the PPP members.

Sukumpong commented that the Parliament may be dissolved, but noted that it is not a common occurrence in the presence of an Interim Government which is considered appointed by Royal Decree.

- ThaiNews / 2008-09-16