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Posted

I have a friend who got a life degree online. He'scoming to Thailand and expects to work as a teacher. Seems a bit dogy to me. Does anyone know what %age of schools would accept this 'degree'.

Posted

My school has received many applicants recently from people with dodgy degrees. My school won't touch them, but most of these guys already have employment elsewhere. This surprises me as it often only takes a couple of seconds internet investigation to see that they are not proper degrees. Considering how many of these already have conned their way into work I would say that your friend might be correct.

Posted
If your friend is white then that would be the highest degree he could ever achieve. :D

He does not need any other degree. :o

That very true Mark.

It's not a fake one but a genuine life degree. Would the M of E accept it for WP/teacher's licence purposes?

Posted

No legitimately accredited universities of which I am aware give more than small amount of supplementary credits for any kind of 'life experience.' There are no truly academically sound life degrees. Whatever happens, it will make little sense, but it will make someone money.

Posted
If your friend is white then that would be the highest degree he could ever achieve. :D

He does not need any other degree. :o

I agree, it seems that White people seem to get along just fine without degrees. I thank the good Lord everyday that I am white and was able to come to Thailand, get legal work, and basically do whatever I wanted without a degree :D

Having said that, legitimate degrees from Western or 'White' universities cannot be bought in ways that they can in Asia. So, a degree from an Asian university (not so much in Japan) does not count for much at the end of the day considering the well known practices of bribery and corruption present in all Aspects of Asian life, and the education system.

One thing that I used to love hearing in the staffroom was comments from the Flips that suggestsed that their education system was better than all education systems in the West because their pass / fail mark is 75%. At the end of the day, what exactally does that mean? Obviously, they haven't heard of or ever looked at university ranking systems. I'm sure it was a long time since a Flip university made the top 100, let alone the top 500 list :D

Posted

As always in Thailand, there are desperate schools and language centers that will take any white body with a pulse. But this appears less common than it used to be. Many of our posters are uni lecturers with real MA's from real Western unis. There are still places that cannot/will not certify real uni graduates with BA or BS. Your mileage will vary.

Life experience! You are still alive, so you must have experienced something somewhere. So for that you get a degree? :o

Posted

Hi :o

Why is it anyway that a university degree is required for so many types of job here? Are they actually aware that in some countries, such as Germany, people do NOT routinely go to university because almost no professions require it?? Apart from doctors, lawyers and teachers pretty much nobody ever went to university.

BUT a German who leaves school after grade 9 (the norm) knows more that most Thais with a master's degree, i dare say.

A degree does nothing but state that you wasted a considerable amount of time and an even higher amount of money to get useless stuff pumped into your head that you will never need in the rest of your life. It does NOT say anything about your qualification for any given job.

A "Life Degree" could actually do that - if you have worked as a teacher (just an example) for the past 10 years, then you are probably able to be a teacher - degree or not.

Best regards.....

Thanh

Posted

Thanh, Hi.

I understand what you are saying. Ijustwannateach and I both believe that to teach simple, conversational English to 90 percent of Thai students, a full degree is not needed. We have this debate often. But your own post mentions that teaching is one of the professions where a degree is required.

In this thread, we are debating the worth or meaning of a "life experience degree." As you mentioned, it takes many years, lots of money, and lots of effort to earn a real degree. Schools are educational institutions, even in Thailand. They think you need more than a high school education to teach high school students. It does not matter how valuable a Thai degree is, the Thais think any real, earned degree is valuable.

Posted

Hi :o

Yeah i understand that/ my question was hence covering "many types of job", not only teachers. Like, to work as a secretary or even a sales person they ask for degrees here.... THAT is what i don't get.

For teaching - i somehow understand the need, after all that requires some more specific, higher type of education. But lowly-paid, low-requirement jobs??

For me, a foreigner, even to work as a MECHANIC i would need to have a degree to do that legally. Weird.

Best regards.....

Thanh

Posted
A degree does nothing but state that you wasted a considerable amount of time and an even higher amount of money to get useless stuff pumped into your head that you will never need in the rest of your life. It does NOT say anything about your qualification for any given job.

True, even when I worked as an engineer, what I learned in my Mech Eng degree never helped. It was not a complete waste of time - I had great fun getting wasted most nights and many days for 3 years. My snooker ability increased dramatically.

I got money from the UK government, hoiusing benefit to do this - I love Margeret Thatcher!

Posted

How on earth does a teacher need a degree to teach "A ant mot", "B bird nok", "C cat maew"? :o

I always say that Native speaking teachers take teaching way to seriously which is ironic as most haven't a clue about teaching English.

This is Thailand - it ain't ( Iceland -- or the Philippines -- or Hastings ) no one cares about learning English in Anubarn, Prathom an Mattayom, it's all about money and the dispensable farang is a dancing white monkey who helps the Thais line their corrupt pockets.

Posted

Well.....

I can easily compare between myself (but ok, i got 10th grade "secondary II") and my Thai boyfriend (bachelor's in business administration). While he knows 73 ways to get a solution to a math problem, he can't change a light bulb. While he knows all about the history of Ayuthaya he never heard of "The Romans" or that there used to be TWO Germany's. While he can vaguely figure out the capital city of Vietnam he doesn't know that "The Netherlands" and "Alaska" are on different continents. Oh, and like so many Thais that i know - he can SPELL English words perfectly. But putting them together to a sentence??

"Old McDonald he have some farm". Funny, but NOT a joke (although i couldn't stop laughing my ass off after he let that one, i have to admit - some "Thai English" is just way cute).

75% of "knowledge" comes from television, including all the wrong things......

Thanh

Posted

Degrees can be what you make of them, even in Thailand. It's quite possible to learn a lot in the process of getting a degree- from the coursework and otherwise. It's hard for me to credit those who don't have them making such confident statements about their relative worthlessness. And Neeranam, I doubt that NONE of the math, physics, computer, logical skills, etc. you must have acquired as an engineering student was *ever* valuable in an engineering career!!!

Once again, I'm making a (hardly ever clear) distinction here between TEFL and the teaching of actual school subjects. For the former, any relatively responsible and sane native speaker with TEFL training or experience should be fine (sometimes I think the sanity and the responsibility is the harder requirement for schools). For the latter, a real (preferably related) degree is a perfectly reasonable requirement- at the very least, one should have had more education than the students one is theoretically teaching. Otherwise it could be quite embarrassing if your high school students are asking their teacher (who never attended college) for help on their university applications.

"S"

Posted
It's hard for me to credit those who don't have them making such confident statements about their relative worthlessness.

"S"

Obviously you have been in Thailand for too long, or, let me correct myslef and say, obviosuly you have been away from developed, first world, Western nations for too long (excluding the USA where the minimun wage is a few dollars, the economy is in the toilet, and you need a degree to flip hamburgers). My apologies to hear that your time in Thailand has blinded you and curtailed the commonsense you might of once had. I don't know much about you, but your line of argument would make me believe that you are an American? I know degrees are almost worth as much in America as the are in Manilla.

I still don't know why I'm bothering at university. I will most likely never be returning to Thailand to teach after returning to the West. Having experienced what both cultures have to offer, I feel that time spent in Thailand is time that could be better spent elsewhere. I earn over 100K to drive commuter trains. I get 10 weeks a year paid annual leave. Really, I get paid a lot to sit on my ass and have a lot of fun, whic hincluded being responsible for sometimes up to 2400 lives. The benefits to stay here and work without a degree by far outweight any benefits of working in Thailand. In fact, not even the management where I work hold degrees; what they do hold is something more valuable, that being years of experience and commonsense. The only peole where I work that hold degrees are the Indians, Chinese, and other immigrants that work as cleaners or ticket sellers. In fact, One cleaner who holds a Phd from some Indian university earns about 35k per year. Apart from my trade qualifications, I am less academically qualified than these people who earn less than 4 times my salary once benfits are included. How can that be?

Degrees may be the be all and end all of life in Thailand, and in Asia, but Thailand and Asia is not the be all and end all as far as places to live are concerned. Sure, the women are cheaper in Asia and they look better, but it seems that the only thing Asians are proud of is their education; education which does not curtail their stupidity or better their lifestlye. The Filippinos I used to work with used to brag about their degrees, thinking they were better. My bank statement, assets, lifestyle, and happiness proved who was really better. But, on payday, when it took me 10 times as long to count the 1000 THB banknotes in the envelope containing my salary, I think that feeling of betterness they had was gone; its easy to tell a fake smile from a genuine smile. :o:D They could obviously not use their degrees to get work in their home country so came to a similar place to work. They claimed to be in Thailand for the right reasons to teach, to make a difference, and that farangs came here to earn easy money to pay for pussy. However, I do recall that on every payday, the first things the Filippions did was run to Western Union to send money back home. I once asked, if we come here to earn easy money and you said you come here to make a difference, how come you send half your salary back home? Does that not seem to indicate that you are also here to earn money? If farangs who pay for pussy are bad, what about Filippino girls who sell their pussy? If Thai bar girls are so bad, what about Filippinos who sell their pussy? Is there a difference? I never got a truthful answer, just a bitter grin. All I could see was that they were proud of the fact that they had a degree, but seemed to deny the fact that they were not happy. At the end of the day, all a degree means is that you supposedly attened so many years of university. That's all it means. You can buy an education, but you can't buy intelligence. When Asia realises that, that will be the day Asia wakes up. Will that day ever come in Thailand? I doubt it. Not in my lifetime.

To those who decide to stay in Thailand, either because they like the Thai culture or because they can't get a root back home, Chok Dee!

May the piece of paper you hold bring you wealth and happiness!

Posted

It must be that time of year again, when a discussion turns to degrees versus no degrees, the educated versus the uneducated. Fine. Let's talk.

aussiestyle, let me grade your essay, above. The opening paragraph starts with a personal attack on a member/moderator, accusing him of being jaded, or ignorant. Then it switches to an erroneous attack on America, where the minimum wage is now around seven dollars (more than a few), where my intelligent, well-traveled but non-degreed and shiftless son is a cook for ten dollars an hour, where school teachers are expected to have earned a real bachelor's degree, etc. Paragraph one is more of a rant or a diatribe than it is an introduction, not even making a valid point. However, the remarks were largely on topic, your sentence structure was good, and there were no obvious grammatical or spelling errors.

Paragraph two. A train driver who is going to uni in Australia wonders why he goes to uni. I wondered similarly before finishing my degree. I kept on going, through a degree and through a different major subject, because my background and intellect compelled me, and because I wished to enter a profession, and then another profession. Nobody expects their income tax auditor to be untrained in accounting. If you are quite sure you will never be in a professional occupation - driving a train, selling timeshares, flipping burgers - you don't need to know much. You cite your non-degreed bosses as examples where common sense and experience are more valuable than a uni degree. You make an invalid point. Nearly all successful careers require common sense and experience Perhaps your own years in Thailand jaded you to degreed professionals who did not show you those traits. Nobody loses their common sense en route to a baccalaureate ceremony. Your absurd example of a Ph.D. ticket seller from India is an aberration which says more about Indian universities and Australian treatment of immigrants, than it does about the worth of degrees generally. I audited the income tax return of a Sri Lankan M.D. who was a nurse in the US because he could not pass American medical board tests. Not typical.

Paragraph three. You mention how much it costs in Thailand to get a woman for a short time. Huh? Not relevant to the discussion, and a cheap shot at Thai women. I won't ask how much you pay for an Aussie ho. We do accept, however, informed comparisons of Thai degrees with western degrees, and the results are generally mixed. Personally, I'll still consider my third rate uni degree from South Texas to nearly equal the Thai Ed.D. The Thai ajarn who spent an hour of my time revising her master's thesis last night did not go to that Ed.D. for advice. You then compare Thai B.Ed.'s with Filipina B.Ed.'s. I guess I agree. I have never seen a substantial difference between those two groups of well dressed ladies. Some educations are better than other educations. Your pussy-for-pay arguments are not at a professional level, although I agree there may be some truth in there somewhere. Some pussies are better than other pussies, maybe. Finally, at the end of the paragraph, you kind of conclude by saying, "all a degree means is that you supposedly attened so many years of university. That's all it means." Well, for a while there I thought it was all about pussy. May I talk about your mother, please? Isn't she a teacher with a degree? Is her degree just an attendance certificate? She learned nothing? You seem to be echoing Neeranaum's earlier statement, that all his years at earning a degree in engineering were worthless. IJWT has already mentioned how silly that is. My best friend has BS and MS in highway engineering, passed the very difficult PE exam in America, and he designs highways because he learned how, in China and at Georgia Tech. I hope that you drive your train over well designed bridges. In case you had not noticed, uni studies teach real theory and applied theory, real science and actual math, even educational theory (which may not apply to a typical Thai class). I was tutoring a non-Thai 7th grader, mostly in her English homework, when she asked me to explain respiratory physiology. I said no problem, girl, I taught that for the USAF in 1962. I also explained geography, osmosis, Mayan cosmology, etc. Learned some of it in uni, some by experience. That teacher here who recently asked about the foreign earned income exclusion? I learned that at school and at the office. Maybe your years as a non-degreed TEFLer in Thailand blinded you to the value of a real education, which you did not need to teach TEFL here. But if you intend to come back here and teach in a real, true international school, you will have to get a real degree and real teaching experience.

As for how much that degree in Christian religion and accounting helped me teach EFL and maths in Thailand - the BA helped me. I never found a Thai student who wanted to know how to compute the second part of the negligence penalty under Section 6653(a)(1)(:D of Title 26 of the United States Code, however. :o

Chok dee to you, too, aussiestyle. It's not all about pussy here, even if you thought it was.

I wish I knew Bloom's taxonomy. But in Thailand, I think I would just use it down at pub to impress Aussie train drivers and Welsh colliers.

Posted (edited)

My appoligies PB. I thought I was posting a rant in a public forum in response to an invalid and bogus comment made by a person with authority that should have known better; a mod. What I wrote was not an essay (believe me, I have enough essays due at uni I would not even bother wasting my time following the structure of an argumentative essay when making a rant post).

I must say, similar to the comment IJWT made that I was ranting about, that I can not give credit to the clamis made by anyone residing in Thailand. People go to Thailand for many reasons, and end up staying there for quite a few reasons. Nonetheless, there are a lot of undesirables in Thailand, and because this is a public forum and anyone could be sitting at a computer hiding behind a username, I can not give credit to comments made by anyone, just like how some people might find my claims to be ludacris.

Overall, you seemed to spend a lot more time giving me useless feedback about a quick rant than most tutors given me on a critical review. I appreciate that. However, I just wanted to draw your attention to the folowing comment: "Some pussies are better than other pussies, maybe." I strongly disagree with that. Out of all the pussy I have sampled, no two have tasted the same or felt the same. Some pussies are better that others, no exceptions. If you can find two cloned pussies, please send me a PM so I can see for myself :o

BTW, until proved wrong, I stand by my comment that all a degree means is that you supposedly attened a few years of university. Can you tell me with certanty of anything else that it means? Okay, okay, I forgot.......... It also means that you should have extended knowledge and skills in whatever area you studdied, but it doesn't mean that you do. At the end of the day, all that anyone holding a real degree can claim is that they attened university and should know more in the area of subject that they studdied.

Why do I think university is worthless? Simple, because of what I can achieve without it. If anything, going to uni whilst working in only curtailing my chances to earn overtime and pay back the mortgage quicker. My brother supposedly spent 5 years in a Dallas Uni earning a bachelor of accounting. He now works for the state government and earns a measly 35K. I do realize that the USD is slightly highers that the AUD, but I still make 3 times what he makes; what it took him 5 years of studying to make. Are degrees worthless? My answer is yes :D

Edited by aussiestyle1983
Posted

aussiestyle, thanks for confirming that you were only ranting. My review was partly tongue in cheek, obviously. I did a much better review of a master's thesis, last night, for free, for a lady who ranks well into the top ten percent of Thai ajarns, and is about to receive a 12,000 baht per month increase, which will help her state pension when she joins her retired Thai banker husband in retirement. Very smart folks.

The real statistics of the monetary value of a formal education, over a working career, are well documented. They consistently show that most brain surgeons earn more than most street sweepers. However, my Thai neurology professor cannot drive your train, and you probably could not audit a set of accounting records using GAAP. Shall we stop discussing vaginal odours, and your mother? :o

You wrote, "I can not give credit to the claims made by anyone residing in Thailand." Shall we then delete or disregard the first thousand posts you made here, whilst residing in Thailand? Some of our posters lecture at universities more renowned than the University of Nullarbor. We have posters here who teach AP physics, and molecular biology, by Western standards, in Thailand. Posters with western Ph.D.'s in subjects you and I would have trouble following, and could never teach. Yes, Thailand is not Canberra, so what?

Back on topic: are there real universities offering bachelor degrees based primarily on simple life experience such as driving trains and washing dishes (I washed dishes whilst working days as a tax auditor)? Should such experience count for more than a single course toward an academic degree? I think not. When I re-enrolled at uni as a veteran, they waived the PE requirements and maybe gave me 3 credits toward my degree. But I still had to take all those courses in English, history, religion, science, math, statistics, tax accounting - even an intro course in the philosophy of teaching PE! I had to study and learn, had to write papers on Plato and Marx, answer questions about economics.

Got to go now. Have to meet my buddy (Master Sergeant, USAF, retired; Associate of Arts degree; CELTA certified) who is recently back from a tour of America where he only found a job like my dropout son has - a short order cook. He's a native speaker, without the gift of teaching, so at age 45, he may never earn a train driver's salary, even though he is a licensed heavy equipment operator. Those who cannot teach, sometimes drive vehicles.

Posted
aussiestyle, thanks for confirming that you were only ranting. My review was partly tongue in cheek, obviously. I did a much better review of a master's thesis, last night, for free, for a lady who ranks well into the top ten percent of Thai ajarns, and is about to receive a 12,000 baht per month increase, which will help her state pension when she joins her retired Thai banker husband in retirement. Very smart folks.

The real statistics of the monetary value of a formal education, over a working career, are well documented. They consistently show that most brain surgeons earn more than most street sweepers. However, my Thai neurology professor cannot drive your train, and you probably could not audit a set of accounting records using GAAP. Shall we stop discussing vaginal odours, and your mother? :o

You wrote, "I can not give credit to the claims made by anyone residing in Thailand." Shall we then delete or disregard the first thousand posts you made here, whilst residing in Thailand? Some of our posters lecture at universities more renowned than the University of Nullarbor. We have posters here who teach AP physics, and molecular biology, by Western standards, in Thailand. Posters with western Ph.D.'s in subjects you and I would have trouble following, and could never teach. Yes, Thailand is not Canberra, so what?

Back on topic: are there real universities offering bachelor degrees based primarily on simple life experience such as driving trains and washing dishes (I washed dishes whilst working days as a tax auditor)? Should such experience count for more than a single course toward an academic degree? I think not. When I re-enrolled at uni as a veteran, they waived the PE requirements and maybe gave me 3 credits toward my degree. But I still had to take all those courses in English, history, religion, science, math, statistics, tax accounting - even an intro course in the philosophy of teaching PE! I had to study and learn, had to write papers on Plato and Marx, answer questions about economics.

Got to go now. Have to meet my buddy (Master Sergeant, USAF, retired; Associate of Arts degree; CELTA certified) who is recently back from a tour of America where he only found a job like my dropout son has - a short order cook. He's a native speaker, without the gift of teaching, so at age 45, he may never earn a train driver's salary, even though he is a licensed heavy equipment operator. Those who cannot teach, sometimes drive vehicles.

My quote: "I can not give credit to the claims made by anyone residing in Thailand." was a direct response to IJWT's quote "It's hard for me to credit those who don't have them making such confident statements about their relative worthlessness." He feels that the claims of people without degrees do not have credible claims about their usefullness, well, just because one doesn't have a degree doesn't mean that one doesn't know a lot about them and their usefulness or lack of.

BTW, I never suggested degrees should be awarded for work or life experience. I was suggesting that there are many people earning good money who don't have degrees because they don't need them. Does this mean that they are not credible or not intelligent? I think not.

Back to driving. Break over,

Posted

Hey :o

I have some 1 1/2 kilometers forward and the same 1 1/2 kilometers backwards experience in driving a real 01-series express train steam locomotive. Does that get me a degree??

But, on another related note, i have been told this a few times already - as in Germany, in lieu of university, people usually undergo a practical education with the goal to become a professional. That is, after secondary school (at age 15 or 16 respective grade 9 or 10) people start working in their desired profession 4 days a week and the 5th day attend a specific kind or school where they learn all the theoretic stuff. Depending on profession, this education takes anywhere from 2 to 3 1/2 years, with things requiring engineering-type knowledge taking the longest. In the end, you have a theoretical as well as practical exam and, if passed, get a diploma-kind of thing, in German called a "Gesellenbrief". Now, translating THAT into English, it becomes "Bachelor's Letter".

Now, some people told me that THAT thing is equal to a bachelor's degree... well, it kind of has a very similar name, no? now is it true that it is equal, i.e. i *could* apply for (and get) a job requiring "bachelor degree in any field" with my german diploma? In fact i have two of those as i did that education twice, i am indeed a professional electrician AND a professional motor mechanic (motorcycles specialist) - 2x 3 1/2 years.

There must be Germans here who know more, or anyone who has experience with this kind of thing??

I just want to know if i HAVE a <deleted>' "degree" or not :D

Best regards......

Thanh

Posted

I made a rather bland statement asserting that degrees are not without value and those who are putting them down as worthless are not necessarily without bias due to personal circumstances. I never dreamed it would result in such ranting! Clearly there's a lot of sensitivity out there!

It's hard for me to credit those who don't have them making such confident statements about their relative worthlessness.

"S"

Obviously you have been in Thailand for too long, or, let me correct myslef and say, obviosuly you have been away from developed, first world, Western nations for too long (excluding the USA where the minimun wage is a few dollars, the economy is in the toilet, and you need a degree to flip hamburgers). My apologies to hear that your time in Thailand has blinded you and curtailed the commonsense you might of once had. I don't know much about you, but your line of argument would make me believe that you are an American? I know degrees are almost worth as much in America as the are in Manilla.

You apparently believe that I believe that degrees are important primarily because of employment. True, they are one way to secure employment, but primarily I am interested in academic study because I am interested in ideas and thinking. My definitions of worth may therefore differ from yours. If it seems like I am speaking Greek or Chinese when I say this, you may simply wish to acknowledge that my beliefs seem insane or incomprehensible, and there is no point in continuing discussion (this seems likely).

I still don't know why I'm bothering at university. I will most likely never be returning to Thailand to teach after returning to the West. Having experienced what both cultures have to offer, I feel that time spent in Thailand is time that could be better spent elsewhere. I earn over 100K to drive commuter trains. I get 10 weeks a year paid annual leave. Really, I get paid a lot to sit on my ass and have a lot of fun, whic hincluded being responsible for sometimes up to 2400 lives. The benefits to stay here and work without a degree by far outweight any benefits of working in Thailand. In fact, not even the management where I work hold degrees; what they do hold is something more valuable, that being years of experience and commonsense.

I'm happy that you experience employment satisfaction, but once again: my academic study (of various types) did not take place with the idea of teaching in Thailand (the thought of it!) and I couldn't see myself studying solely with the goal of staying in or working in Thailand. I enjoy my job, too, and I feel that as a result of at least some of the academic work I have done that my job performance is better in various respects- not always the respects that my employers might choose- and that's another benefit.

When I study the reason is clear: I'm interested in what I'm studying and I want to do it. If you're not sure why you're bothering, you should probably stop.

The only peole where I work that hold degrees are the Indians, Chinese, and other immigrants that work as cleaners or ticket sellers. In fact, One cleaner who holds a Phd from some Indian university earns about 35k per year. Apart from my trade qualifications, I am less academically qualified than these people who earn less than 4 times my salary once benfits are included. How can that be?

Probably market forces. It's only recently that people (rightly or wrongly) have associated having a degree with employment and financial success. Through most of the history of academic qualifications, the people who had them didn't need to do much gainful work and employment wasn't their point.

One could also argue that in skills-related labour, the skills are worth more than any theoretical academic knowledge and therefore the salaries are as you say (one could also question the quality of certain foreign universities, but that is really off-topic). It doesn't really matter to me; if salary or earning money were my first consideration, I'd have certainly done things completely differently since way back.

Degrees may be the be all and end all of life in Thailand, and in Asia, but Thailand and Asia is not the be all and end all as far as places to live are concerned.

I'm still not sure how it is I (or anyone else) have aligned ourselves with this statement in any way.

Sure, the women are cheaper in Asia and they look better, but it seems that the only thing Asians are proud of is their education; education which does not curtail their stupidity or better their lifestlye. The Filippinos I used to work with used to brag about their degrees, thinking they were better. My bank statement, assets, lifestyle, and happiness proved who was really better. But, on payday, when it took me 10 times as long to count the 1000 THB banknotes in the envelope containing my salary, I think that feeling of betterness they had was gone; its easy to tell a fake smile from a genuine smile.

I've known a lot of Asians, and I doubt very much that your rather bizarre stereotyping of them (female or otherwise) really covers the mark. For example, I've known Asians proud of their looks, proud of their money, proud of their families, proud of their skills, proud of their accomplishments, proud of their actions, proud of their character, and proud of many other things not limited to their education. On the other hand, you are hardly unique in Asia in being proud of your money, and there are plenty of Asians whose bank accounts would dwarf yours (and mine) easily. The main thing I pick up from this paragraph is that you like lording your money over other persons you perceive to be 'lower' than you and use it to cover your own personal insecurities (of whatever sort)- never a very attractive behaviour.

:o:D They could obviously not use their degrees to get work in their home country so came to a similar place to work. They claimed to be in Thailand for the right reasons to teach, to make a difference, and that farangs came here to earn easy money to pay for pussy. However, I do recall that on every payday, the first things the Filippions did was run to Western Union to send money back home. I once asked, if we come here to earn easy money and you said you come here to make a difference, how come you send half your salary back home? Does that not seem to indicate that you are also here to earn money?

I'm really not sure how my comments about degrees devolved into a discussion of your various grudges against Filipino teachers in Thailand. Yes, many of them are hypocritical (after all, many of them are Catholic... :D)- but so are many teachers of other nationalities. If you are trying to argue that Filipino teachers and the possibly low value of many of their degrees (which is a topic on which I have some first-hand experience backing up this theory) are somehow an argument against degrees having value, then I must conclude you missed some of the value of a college education in learning how to construct a strong argument.

If farangs who pay for pussy are bad, what about Filippino girls who sell their pussy? If Thai bar girls are so bad, what about Filippinos who sell their pussy? Is there a difference? I never got a truthful answer, just a bitter grin. All I could see was that they were proud of the fact that they had a degree, but seemed to deny the fact that they were not happy. At the end of the day, all a degree means is that you supposedly attened so many years of university. That's all it means. You can buy an education, but you can't buy intelligence. When Asia realises that, that will be the day Asia wakes up. Will that day ever come in Thailand? I doubt it. Not in my lifetime.

I'm afraid the whole 'pussy' argument has lost me here, and it really shouldn't be the level of discourse here on the teaching forum, so let's (and that means everyone on this thread) drop it.

I agree there are problems with many Filipino degrees and some aspects of education in various Asian countries. Does that mean all degrees everywhere are without value of any kind? Nope. Does it mean all degrees in Asia are worthless? Nope. I still don't see how much of what you said applies to my statements or my beliefs at all.

To those who decide to stay in Thailand, either because they like the Thai culture or because they can't get a root back home, Chok Dee!

May the piece of paper you hold bring you wealth and happiness!

I think you're projecting a little here... and I don't think anything you said has demonstrated that higher education has no value. In fact, others reading this thread might decide that you could use a little more of it yourself to good effect, in respect to constructing strong, logical arguments, addressing the topic in question and not some other topic, and in terms of making a good presentation of your opinions. Good luck either way.

"S"

Posted
Hey :o

I have some 1 1/2 kilometers forward and the same 1 1/2 kilometers backwards experience in driving a real 01-series express train steam locomotive. Does that get me a degree??

But, on another related note, i have been told this a few times already - as in Germany, in lieu of university, people usually undergo a practical education with the goal to become a professional. That is, after secondary school (at age 15 or 16 respective grade 9 or 10) people start working in their desired profession 4 days a week and the 5th day attend a specific kind or school where they learn all the theoretic stuff. Depending on profession, this education takes anywhere from 2 to 3 1/2 years, with things requiring engineering-type knowledge taking the longest. In the end, you have a theoretical as well as practical exam and, if passed, get a diploma-kind of thing, in German called a "Gesellenbrief". Now, translating THAT into English, it becomes "Bachelor's Letter".

Now, some people told me that THAT thing is equal to a bachelor's degree... well, it kind of has a very similar name, no? now is it true that it is equal, i.e. i *could* apply for (and get) a job requiring "bachelor degree in any field" with my german diploma? In fact i have two of those as i did that education twice, i am indeed a professional electrician AND a professional motor mechanic (motorcycles specialist) - 2x 3 1/2 years.

There must be Germans here who know more, or anyone who has experience with this kind of thing??

I just want to know if i HAVE a <deleted>' "degree" or not :D

Best regards......

Thanh

Hard to tell, but it seems like you have 2 excellent vocational qualifications rather than academic degrees (electrician and mechanic wouldn't be uni subjects in most countries, though they are certainly challenging skills)- I don't know enough about the German system to say for sure- but if they look good enough, they may fool the Thai system. No way to know until you try.

Posted
My quote: "I can not give credit to the claims made by anyone residing in Thailand." was a direct response to IJWT's quote "It's hard for me to credit those who don't have them making such confident statements about their relative worthlessness." He feels that the claims of people without degrees do not have credible claims about their usefullness, well, just because one doesn't have a degree doesn't mean that one doesn't know a lot about them and their usefulness or lack of.

BTW, I never suggested degrees should be awarded for work or life experience. I was suggesting that there are many people earning good money who don't have degrees because they don't need them. Does this mean that they are not credible or not intelligent? I think not.

Back to driving. Break over,

Incidentally, there's a difference in degree between "cannot" and "it is hard to..."

I find arguments against degrees (or about anything, really) more compelling when they are made in respect to an specific viewpoint- for example, "degrees are not worth much to persons who will be in skilled vocational careers," or "degrees are not worth much to persons who could find better paying employment without them," or "degrees past a certain point simply keep a person from earning years of seniority." All of these are valid, but limited positions. To say that degrees are worthless- universally- and base your arguments primarily on Filipinos- while not having a degree yourself- well, it doesn't pass the following "which is more likely" test:

Which is more likely? That you've got an axe to grind against Filipinos and don't understand how degrees could be valuable to you and lack the imagination to understand how they might be valuable to other types of persons? Or that you've made a well-reasoned and supported argument which addresses the comment to which it responds?

"S"

P.S. To remind everyone what the topic of this thread actually is, it's 'life-degrees,' which are totally bogus. However, it remains (AFAIK) completely legal and possible to work as a TEFL teacher through various venues in Thailand, with visa and work permit and everything, without a degree- but it's getting harder.

Posted

the more degrees the better. a degree too much doesn't hurt nobody (if not too much time wasted). but what counts in the very end are just two things: 1. are you happy? 2. are others happy with you? if you want knowledge: study. if you want money: work! de gustibus non est disputandum...............(but your disputs enjoyed me!)

Posted

Yeeeehaw!!!!!

Ya got's to lub a good debate between the uneducated and the educated (univeristally speaking of course). hel_l, sounds like me tryin' to argue with my pop about the uselessness and money grubbing labor unions in da USA! He's retired UAW (autoworkers) and I am university degree holder in (was in) management.

I wonder why he was so willing and supportive to send me to college while he was making so much money turning bolts and nuts on an assembly line? Answer: Because he knew/knows the value (not necessarily $$'s) of a good education.

Anyway, there are many successful people who didn't step foot into a university or further their education. They were at the right place at the right time and got LUCKY. Much more often than not, university degree holders make much more money over the course of their lifetime than non-degree holders, with all other things being equal. It is a statistical truth. BUT, that isn't to say that studying at a university just for the sake of more money is always the motivation of a uni student. Many times it is just a secondary benefit.

In the USA, more than anything, getting a university degree shows a prospective employer that you are capable of setting long term goals (degree) and utilizing short term projects (classes) to successfully achieve those goals. Additionally, it shows motivation to be self disciplined and wanting to expand upon what you learn in life.

I dear say that if I could make 100K "sitting on my ass" I would probably question the value of degree for MYSELF too, but it doesn't give me the right to question the value to someone else of their degree. There's more to university and work than just making money. No one should question the value to someone else of their university degree but for yourself, ok...as long as the questioning is presented in that context.

I hope you save enough money to have that wide ass, and the other consequences of sitting on it as a profession, taken care of in the future....probably by a university graduate holding a medical degree and not a doctor saying "I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night"....lol.

Regards to all!

Martian

Posted

I think that "life degrees" are worthless. Exactly what is a life degree anyway? How are you assessed?

Anyway, I don't have a degree & nor do I want one. It appears that there are two trains of thought amongst people;

1] academic qualifications are "all important" & experience is not really important.

2] experience is all important & academic qualifications are just worthless pieces of paper.

In actual fact, both of the above statements are correct according to the personal vocational choices made by an individual. Clearly, I would not like to be the patient of "someone" who claims to be a surgeon but does not at least have an appropriate medical degree.

On the other hand, I have been employed as an engineer (in the past) but I do not have an engineering degree. My work involved doing exactly the same as that of other degreed engineers. The reason for this was that I had experience & knowledge that can't be gained just by doing a degree. On occassions, I was sneered at by some degreed people & challenged by them to prove my academic ability, which I did successfully prove. Even today, there are some whom I've met, who insist that I am not a "real" engineer because I don't have a degree even though that we can both fluently & equally discuss & debate engineering issues. I guess that ego (prestige) is yet another reason to want a degree.

When I was 26 & already an experienced & qualified Electrical Fitter/Mechanic, I decided to go back to High School & do Year 11. I did this because I wanted knowledge...not a piece of paper. I really only wanted to learn more about Maths (3 Unit), Chemistry & Physics because I was highly interested in the more technical aspect of the electrical world. At this stage, I had not envisaged being any sort of electrical engineer.

When I finished Year 11, I further undertook self study of the above subjects...again, purely out of interest in the more technical aspect of the electrical world.

Also, I accidentally gained my first job (tranee engineering estimator) as an engineering trainee with a company in Sydney. I responded to an ad in a newspaper for a job that sounded interesting. Some years later, I responded to another newspaper for a similar job as it seemed like a way "up". I got this job but on my first day at work, I was told that they didn't want me to be an estimator because they seemed to think that I could handle Project Engineering. I agreed to this because of the challenge to learn something new.

It would take me another 2 years to realise that I needed more knowledge in order to be a skillful engineer so I quit work & attended T.A.F.E. ( Australias government run Tertiary College) to do the Associate Diploma in Electrical Engineering. I had two choices...do this part time over a four year period or do it full time for one year. I chose full time.

I was not surprised that all of my previous "self learning" helped me greatly. One of my instructors, a female, was a degreed electrical engineer. She told us (students) that this course was technically more difficult than the degree & the degree dealt with other less technical aspects of engineering (administration).

My summation of all this is that qualifications may or may not be important. Knowledge, qualified or unqualified, is important. Proven experience combined with knowledge is unbeatable.

Posted

I never understand why an excellent Philipino teacher with experience earns 15000 Baht and at the same school a white German with no experience and terrible english accent can earn 40000 baht.

I feel sorry for them , they work hard and have to send money back to their poor families back in the Phillippines.

This is just discrimination , one of the things I hate about Thailand.

Posted
I made a rather bland statement asserting that degrees are not without value and those who are putting them down as worthless are not necessarily without bias due to personal circumstances. I never dreamed it would result in such ranting! Clearly there's a lot of sensitivity out there!
It's hard for me to credit those who don't have them making such confident statements about their relative worthlessness.

"S"

Obviously you have been in Thailand for too long, or, let me correct myslef and say, obviosuly you have been away from developed, first world, Western nations for too long (excluding the USA where the minimun wage is a few dollars, the economy is in the toilet, and you need a degree to flip hamburgers). My apologies to hear that your time in Thailand has blinded you and curtailed the commonsense you might of once had. I don't know much about you, but your line of argument would make me believe that you are an American? I know degrees are almost worth as much in America as the are in Manilla.

You apparently believe that I believe that degrees are important primarily because of employment. True, they are one way to secure employment, but primarily I am interested in academic study because I am interested in ideas and thinking. My definitions of worth may therefore differ from yours. If it seems like I am speaking Greek or Chinese when I say this, you may simply wish to acknowledge that my beliefs seem insane or incomprehensible, and there is no point in continuing discussion (this seems likely).

I still don't know why I'm bothering at university. I will most likely never be returning to Thailand to teach after returning to the West. Having experienced what both cultures have to offer, I feel that time spent in Thailand is time that could be better spent elsewhere. I earn over 100K to drive commuter trains. I get 10 weeks a year paid annual leave. Really, I get paid a lot to sit on my ass and have a lot of fun, whic hincluded being responsible for sometimes up to 2400 lives. The benefits to stay here and work without a degree by far outweight any benefits of working in Thailand. In fact, not even the management where I work hold degrees; what they do hold is something more valuable, that being years of experience and commonsense.

I'm happy that you experience employment satisfaction, but once again: my academic study (of various types) did not take place with the idea of teaching in Thailand (the thought of it!) and I couldn't see myself studying solely with the goal of staying in or working in Thailand. I enjoy my job, too, and I feel that as a result of at least some of the academic work I have done that my job performance is better in various respects- not always the respects that my employers might choose- and that's another benefit.

When I study the reason is clear: I'm interested in what I'm studying and I want to do it. If you're not sure why you're bothering, you should probably stop.

The only peole where I work that hold degrees are the Indians, Chinese, and other immigrants that work as cleaners or ticket sellers. In fact, One cleaner who holds a Phd from some Indian university earns about 35k per year. Apart from my trade qualifications, I am less academically qualified than these people who earn less than 4 times my salary once benfits are included. How can that be?

Probably market forces. It's only recently that people (rightly or wrongly) have associated having a degree with employment and financial success. Through most of the history of academic qualifications, the people who had them didn't need to do much gainful work and employment wasn't their point.

One could also argue that in skills-related labour, the skills are worth more than any theoretical academic knowledge and therefore the salaries are as you say (one could also question the quality of certain foreign universities, but that is really off-topic). It doesn't really matter to me; if salary or earning money were my first consideration, I'd have certainly done things completely differently since way back.

Degrees may be the be all and end all of life in Thailand, and in Asia, but Thailand and Asia is not the be all and end all as far as places to live are concerned.

I'm still not sure how it is I (or anyone else) have aligned ourselves with this statement in any way.

Sure, the women are cheaper in Asia and they look better, but it seems that the only thing Asians are proud of is their education; education which does not curtail their stupidity or better their lifestlye. The Filippinos I used to work with used to brag about their degrees, thinking they were better. My bank statement, assets, lifestyle, and happiness proved who was really better. But, on payday, when it took me 10 times as long to count the 1000 THB banknotes in the envelope containing my salary, I think that feeling of betterness they had was gone; its easy to tell a fake smile from a genuine smile.

I've known a lot of Asians, and I doubt very much that your rather bizarre stereotyping of them (female or otherwise) really covers the mark. For example, I've known Asians proud of their looks, proud of their money, proud of their families, proud of their skills, proud of their accomplishments, proud of their actions, proud of their character, and proud of many other things not limited to their education. On the other hand, you are hardly unique in Asia in being proud of your money, and there are plenty of Asians whose bank accounts would dwarf yours (and mine) easily. The main thing I pick up from this paragraph is that you like lording your money over other persons you perceive to be 'lower' than you and use it to cover your own personal insecurities (of whatever sort)- never a very attractive behaviour.

:D:D They could obviously not use their degrees to get work in their home country so came to a similar place to work. They claimed to be in Thailand for the right reasons to teach, to make a difference, and that farangs came here to earn easy money to pay for pussy. However, I do recall that on every payday, the first things the Filippions did was run to Western Union to send money back home. I once asked, if we come here to earn easy money and you said you come here to make a difference, how come you send half your salary back home? Does that not seem to indicate that you are also here to earn money?

I'm really not sure how my comments about degrees devolved into a discussion of your various grudges against Filipino teachers in Thailand. Yes, many of them are hypocritical (after all, many of them are Catholic... :D)- but so are many teachers of other nationalities. If you are trying to argue that Filipino teachers and the possibly low value of many of their degrees (which is a topic on which I have some first-hand experience backing up this theory) are somehow an argument against degrees having value, then I must conclude you missed some of the value of a college education in learning how to construct a strong argument.

If farangs who pay for pussy are bad, what about Filippino girls who sell their pussy? If Thai bar girls are so bad, what about Filippinos who sell their pussy? Is there a difference? I never got a truthful answer, just a bitter grin. All I could see was that they were proud of the fact that they had a degree, but seemed to deny the fact that they were not happy. At the end of the day, all a degree means is that you supposedly attened so many years of university. That's all it means. You can buy an education, but you can't buy intelligence. When Asia realises that, that will be the day Asia wakes up. Will that day ever come in Thailand? I doubt it. Not in my lifetime.

I'm afraid the whole 'pussy' argument has lost me here, and it really shouldn't be the level of discourse here on the teaching forum, so let's (and that means everyone on this thread) drop it.

I agree there are problems with many Filipino degrees and some aspects of education in various Asian countries. Does that mean all degrees everywhere are without value of any kind? Nope. Does it mean all degrees in Asia are worthless? Nope. I still don't see how much of what you said applies to my statements or my beliefs at all.

To those who decide to stay in Thailand, either because they like the Thai culture or because they can't get a root back home, Chok Dee!

May the piece of paper you hold bring you wealth and happiness!

I think you're projecting a little here... and I don't think anything you said has demonstrated that higher education has no value. In fact, others reading this thread might decide that you could use a little more of it yourself to good effect, in respect to constructing strong, logical arguments, addressing the topic in question and not some other topic, and in terms of making a good presentation of your opinions. Good luck either way.

"S"

Unlike yourself, I don't care what others think of me. I never have, and I believe that is one of the reasons I am happy. Just because some low life forum user might think I lack communication skills does not mean much to me at the end of the day. I did 5 years of retail vocational education after leaving high school, before getting my trade certificate which allows me to drive trains. Overall, in the ten years I have been out of school (year 12), I have spent about 8 of them in further education. However, when I come to Asia and learn that I am un-educated just because I don't hold a degree I get puzzled (especially when those statements are made by people with degrees who are usually poor, un-happy, and have no life). After just finish my 1st years at uni, what I have learned is all uni is about is teaching communication skills; skills that can be acquired in more relevant ways such as from experience. If it takes someone 4 years of university study just to develop their communication skills, I think that is a waste, especially when they enter the workforce and find that they don't have the experience or commonsense that a high school drop out who has been in the industry for a few years has. You have a go at my writing on this forum, concluding that I need to develop my communication skills? You must be a complete nut case.................. Last time I checked, this was a public forum connected with a seedy country in Asia, not an academic forum associated with a university course. You are wasting you time picking on my communicational errors. I don't spend all day editing public forum posts. I don't spend time reviewing my public forum posts like I do before I submit a research report. However, if you have the time, you can go ahead and cxontinue acting like allmighty powerful academic that you claim to be. BTW, how many times did you smoke a joint with the sigma alpha frat boys when you were in uni? :o

Posted (edited)

IJWT,

Unlike yourself, I don't care what others think of me. I never have, and I believe that is one of the reasons I am happy. Just because some low life forum user might think I lack communication skills does not mean much to me at the end of the day. I did 5 years of retail vocational education after leaving high school, before getting my trade certificate which allows me to drive trains. Overall, in the ten years I have been out of school (year 12), I have spent about 8 of them in further education. However, when I come to Asia and learn that I am un-educated just because I don't hold a degree I get puzzled (especially when those statements are made by people with degrees who are usually poor, un-happy, and have no life). After just finish my 1st years at uni, what I have learned is all uni is about is teaching communication skills; skills that can be acquired in more relevant ways such as from experience. If it takes someone 4 years of university study just to develop their communication skills, I think that is a waste, especially when they enter the workforce and find that they don't have the experience or commonsense that a high school drop out who has been in the industry for a few years has. You have a go at my writing on this forum, concluding that I need to develop my communication skills? You must be a complete nut case.................. Last time I checked, this was a public forum connected with a seedy country in Asia, not an academic forum associated with a university course. You are wasting you time picking on my communicational errors. I don't spend all day editing public forum posts. I don't spend time reviewing my public forum posts like I do before I submit a research report. However, if you have the time, you can go ahead and cxontinue acting like allmighty powerful academic that you claim to be. BTW, how many times did you smoke a joint with the sigma alpha frat boys when you were in uni? :o

One last thing, in reply to this comment:

'' The main thing I pick up from this paragraph is that you like lording your money over other persons you perceive to be 'lower' than you and use it to cover your own personal insecurities (of whatever sort)- never a very attractive behaviour. ''

By suggesting that my behaviour is not attractive by perceiving others to be lower than me because I have something that they don't, you are also suggesting the same about those who think the are better than people because they have a degree whilst the other might not. So, when Flips (and pot smioking farang academics) act like they are better because they have a degree while a farang might not, and a farang acts like they are better because they are hapier and have more wealth than a Flip, to me, its the same. You are suggesting that all the Flips and Thais I have ever worked with also have personal insecurities? Or, are you a hipocrite? Are you going to say that its okay to brag about being better than someone based on academic qualifications (supposedly being an academic yourself) but its not okay to do the same when happiness and money is the independent variable? Don't worry. You don't have to answer that question, because if you do, it will illustrate one of only several things:

1- That your claim also extends to those who think they are better because they have a degree (perhaps such as Flips, Thai's and farangs - not I said farangs, not all westerners or foreigners because outside of Thailand the degree - non-degree debate does not exist);

2- That it only applies to certain factors meaning that it is a claim of a hipocrite;

or

3- That you made a typing error and need to improve your communication skills just as I do :D

BTW, the reason why I wil finish uni is beacue I paid all of my fees in advance and got a good deal, and, because I never start something I can't finish. I also enjoy the fact that despite lacking in communicational skills, I am able to get grades of Distinction and above all the time :D

Edited by aussiestyle1983
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